Sitting in front of a Dell 2407 and LG 246....big Differences....

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elazarus

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jan 1, 2007
Messages
162
I am sitting here driving myself crazy looking at a 2407 DELL WFP rev 4 and a new LG 246 side by side in my home office.

BIG difference between the 2 monitors......I have been taking .jpg's of many different items that I have on the web and shuttling them back and forth......all different colors....I do not use a monitor for gaming but I do a lot of Digital product pics for my website.

The LG is one bright monitor.....and at first it looks like it is the one to beat as the colors jumped right of the screen......

Every photo that I looked at looked better on the LG as the color was excellent but not always exactly as the product looks in real life. But after a few hours I could see that the Dell was "Clearer/Cleaner"...the text was much crisper.....but the colors, although sharp, were a bit duller.

Would I love the color of an LG with the Clarity of the DELL.....you bet...in a heartbeat.....

Both of them beat the socks off the Samsung 22" by far....now I need to use them tomorrow all day and see if I can find which is better for all around work.

Film at 11. By the way...the Dell is hooked up DVI to DVI and the LG is a DVI to HDMI and the graphics card is an Nidea 7600 GT 256mb.

Elliot
 
I assume you've calibrated both monitors similarly? My 2407 was blindingly bright out of the box and all colors were set to 100%! After tweaking per some of the 2407 threads, it looks pretty good, but I may have to bump the colors back up as they seem a tad less brilliant. All three colors are in the 85% range, give or take.
 
The reason the colors appear duller on the Dell is because they use the most aggressive anti-glare coating in the industry (imo) which tends to diffuse the light coming from within the panel as well as externally. Good for brightly lit office applications but takes some getting used to..
 
did you remember to set the LG to sRGB color and tune down the brightness to acceptable levels? (the other modes where bit off on my unit.. the sRGB standard setting is a good base for further calibration)
 
The Dell is the LCD that I have had since December...although a Rev 3 was exchanged for a rev 4. The LG was purchased this week.

The sRGB is set on the LG and I tried to tone down the brightness. The text is definitelt crisper on the Dell....and I understand what you mean about the anti-glare.....but enough to change colors on products??????

Both monitors are set at about 50% brightness +/- and colors at 85%

LG right now wins on great color...Dell wins on clarity.......I lose as neither by itself is good enough for my needs.

Elliot
 
Ive never seen a non-clean LCD display. Its a 1-1 mapping from the computer to the pixels if youre using a digital cable. Perhaps there is some interference being created by the HDMI conversion cable for the LG. I've heard that the converter it ships with is not shielded very well...
 
antioch said:
Ive never seen a non-clean LCD display. Its a 1-1 mapping from the computer to the pixels if youre using a digital cable. Perhaps there is some interference being created by the HDMI conversion cable for the LG. I've heard that the converter it ships with is not shielded very well...
Click to expand...

It's a digital connection, shielding shouldn't change a thing if you are getting a picture at all.
 
There is no conversion between HDMI and DVI. They're the same exact connection. HDMI just carries an audio signal as well. The HDMI/DVI cable simply has a HDMI plug at one end and the pins for the video signal (dvi) at the other..

So there's nothing to degrade the signal at all. It's also digital so poor shielding isn't going to hurt anything..
 
I would appreciate a screenshot because I cannot imagine this "blurry" text. Everyone keeps shooting the word digital around, and I failed to make the connection before. But yes, if are getting a signal then shielding has nothing to do with it. As an extension, you're getting a 1-1 mapping of pixels, so they should be muddy or cross fade into another pixel, am I right?
 
I had to see for myself and went to Fry's today...and knowing the displays are not perfect from 15 monitors set up on one link etc....I looked at the 22 and 24 LG next to each other....and I may get flamed for this but the 22LG was sharper.

I tried to take a picture with my DSLR and a Macro lens but the pic is less than what I wanted......First pic is LG on the left and Dell on the right....2nd is the LG only and the 3rd is the Dell only.....Resampled to 1280 and compressed as a JPG 20%

I am not sure about the camera picking up the interference.

IMG_4392.JPG



IMG_4395.JPG


IMG_4398.JPG


If you have a better way to test just tell me...the screen shots were blurry.


Regards

Elliot
 
Thanks for the effort =) I appreciate it.

I can't really tell any different between the pictures aside from brightness/colors. Of course they do look different because of the patterns on the screen so that might be covering the differences you see in real life.

I suppose you're being very scrutinous of the LCDs. Putting that aside, would you complain about the uncleanliness, or are you just commenting on it? Does it bother you (again, putting aside your profession) or is it bothersome?

Of course, each person has his own opinion - but I've never seen anyone complain about this yet.

Also, how do you rate darker colors?

Again, thanks! :)
 
I love LCD's.......was an early convert.....

My first LCD was a Samsung..... when they came out......

Now I am just looking for a realistic picture.......one where MS Word/Excel looks decent and Photoshop/Corel/Canon show decent pictures....

Neither the LG or the Dell 24 show a realistic product....and I spend hours on the shooting and post processing to make the shots of my products look real.

right now, even though the color is not right...the Dell looks more realistic....

As for darks.....how many shades of grey are there?

Elliot
 
Can you take a macro shot of the pixels on each monitor? Take a picture of these emoticons: :cool::p;)
 
.... I already said like 4000 times in different threads, the LG 24inch is blurry as dogshit. As for color, I've never seen an LCD that had good color straight out of the box, they all have to be calibrated so I wouldn't base anything on color out of the box. The best color out of the box that I've seen is the 20wmgx2 and the 226bw but they still need adjustments.
 
R0achTheWarHero said:
.... I already said like 4000 times in different threads, the LG 24inch is blurry as dogshit.
Click to expand...
The LG isn't any less sharper than my Viewsonic VP930b. Both use P-MVA panels. The LG looks a bit blurry using D-sub but is sharper using DVI. You can argue that it isn't as sharp as the Dell, which uses a different panel tech. But saying it's blurry as dog shit is an exaggeration. You can easily make text look sharper or softer by using ClearType Tuner if the default setting isn't to your liking.
 
Tonight I fine tuned Cleartype and it did not do much for the LG.....the Dell is still sharper even with the advanced Cleartype.....

the more I look at the LG the worse it is......tonight I did some Digital Photo Imaging and never brought the pictures over to the LG...stayed with the Dell....

BUT

when I sent them up to the host...I use Zenfolio, Smugmug, Village photos and Fototime.....they were not that great...even when I looked at them on my Thinkpad desktop...they looked DARKKKKKKKKKKK.....

Arghhhhh

Elliot
 
The Dell is going to be sharper because it uses a different panel type. I don't find the LG to be blurry. Less sharp, maybe. The LG is better suited for gaming (less input lag and ghosting) and DVDs, so not having really sharp text isn't that big a deal.
 
OK, less sharp BUT more noticeable next to the sharper Dell.

Now I am seeing the images instead of being brighter are just more washed out.

No, I have never played any games on my computer, sorry guys I am dull, but I know clarity when I see it and I honestly think the 22LG that I saw yesterday side by side the 24 was crisper....not blurry and quite a difference.

Now I am thinking of keeping the Dell for myself (it was my original afterall) and taking back the LG 24 and shooting myself for spending so much time chasing my tail. I know the 226CW is not the answer.......am I out of options?

Elliot
 
I'm not sure what you're seeing, but I've been using mine for Photoshop work and have been getting great results. I was afraid an LCD would not be as good as a CRT for this but am happy with the results. I keep my NEC CRT right next to it for comparison and I don't see the problems you seem to have. I guess it is a subjective thing. As far as blurry,this must be with text for you because the sharpness in Photoshop is as much as I need.
 
I asked for a macro shot because I wanted to see how the pixels were structured.

I have the answer to why text is blurry. Someone posted a macro shot of the LG in the LG thread:
Blue Falcon said:
Click to expand...

I haven't tried the LG, but I tried another monitor (EIZO HD2441W) with a similar pixel structure, and it ruined text quality for me. When I put my face up to the screen, I could see each pixel was made up of two smaller pixels, and for darker colors, only the top and bottom of the pixel are lit. This caused my eyes to blend the bottom of one pixel and the top of another pixel together, which resulted in a slight vertical blur and messed up antialiased text. That's exactly what that image shows.

Here is a picture of light gray text on a black background:

I chose a blurry picture to show what my eyes see. Notice how it looks like the pixel grid is IN the pixels instead of between the pixels.

Here is a picture of antialiased text on a white background:

Notice how the pixels look similar to the LG except facing the other direction. The gaps in the pixels mess up antialiased text.

Everything on the EIZO looked slightly fuzzy to me, which ruined text quality for me, and based on the pictures, it looks like the 24" LG is the same way. The 22" LG is sharper because it has a TN panel, which doesn't have pixels like that.
 
Using ClearType Tuner can make the text look a bit sharper on P-MVA panels. It won't perform miracles but it can help. I sit about 3' from mine, and even with the default ClearType setting text looks very good but not razor sharp. I'd rather have less sharp text over poor viewing angles.

It seems with every LCD panel tech there are some trade-offs.
 
ClearType doesn't really help because the gap in the pixels with darker colors screws up antialiasing.

What bothers me is this is a new thing. The EIZO supposedly has a newer S-PVA panel, which has the same problem. Older VA panels weren't like this. That's why elazarus isn't bothered by the Dell.

Engineers must be blind. Whose bright idea was it to only light the top and bottom of a pixel for darker colors? What does that achieve? Why couldn't they light the middle of the pixel instead to do what they wanted to do? That would have avoided the blur.
 
I wonder if this has to do with the overdrive circuit used. My ViewSonic VP930b (bought in 2005) has a similar issue with text and it uses an overdrive circuit to help increase response times and reduce ghosting.
 
ToastyX said:
I have the answer to why text is blurry. Someone posted a macro shot of the LG in the LG thread:
Click to expand...
Thanks for the explanation. I wonder why more people with the BenQ FP241W haven't been complaining about text blurriness, though, since if the issue is with the panel itself then this problem should be present on all models that use it, not just the LG. I wonder if the anti-glare coating on the LG is contributing to the problem as well?

All that said, I still think the word "blurry" is a bit of an exaggeration. I don't doubt that it's less sharp than other monitors, but I still find the text to be quite sharp, and certainly more than sufficient for my needs.
 
ToastyX said:
I asked for a macro shot because I wanted to see how the pixels were structured.

I have the answer to why text is blurry. Someone posted a macro shot of the LG in the LG thread:
Click to expand...

FYI, that macro shot was not of the monitor at it's native resolution. I took it because I was impressed with the aliasing ability of the LG when scaling up low resolutions.
 
Blue Falcon said:
FYI, that macro shot was not of the monitor at it's native resolution. I took it because I was impressed with the aliasing ability of the LG when scaling up low resolutions.
Click to expand...
It doesn't matter. That picture shows how the pixels are structured, which is what causes the blurry text some people have been complaining about.

bootstrap said:
Thanks for the explanation. I wonder why more people with the BenQ FP241W haven't been complaining about text blurriness, though, since if the issue is with the panel itself then this problem should be present on all models that use it, not just the LG. I wonder if the anti-glare coating on the LG is contributing to the problem as well?
Click to expand...
Maybe the pixels are lit differently on that monitor, or maybe nobody notices it. I doubt the anti-glare coating has much of an impact.

dark_reign said:
I wonder if this has to do with the overdrive circuit used. My ViewSonic VP930b (bought in 2005) has a similar issue with text and it uses an overdrive circuit to help increase response times and reduce ghosting.
Click to expand...
It's definitely not overdrive. I've seen VA panels with overdrive that weren't like this. I think this was done to improve viewing angles, but I honestly saw no significant improvement compared to older VA panels. It's hard to find any information on this. This is the best I could find: http://ilcc.confex.com/ilcc/2006/techprogram/P3393.HTM
 
If it means anything, I use both Linux (ubuntu) and Windows XP on various computers and monitors in my house and I've always found the fonts blurry on Windows (even with cleartune XP). It's one reason of out many why I leave Windows for gaming only.
 
ToastyX said:
It's definitely not overdrive. I've seen VA panels with overdrive that weren't like this. I think this was done to improve viewing angles, but I honestly saw no significant improvement compared to older VA panels. It's hard to find any information on this. This is the best I could find: http://ilcc.confex.com/ilcc/2006/techprogram/P3393.HTM
Click to expand...

This I remember. :) Its not about the newer S-PVA panels, but when they changed from the 4 domain PVA pixel structure to the S-PVA eight domain.
 
Tamlin_WSGF said:
This I remember. :) Its not about the newer S-PVA panels, but when they changed from the 4 domain PVA pixel structure to the S-PVA eight domain.
Click to expand...
Older S-PVA panels had 8 domains while keeping the entire pixel lit.

I'm not sure, but I think these are the panel names:

LTM240M1-L01 - PVA
LTM240M2-L01 - Older S-PVA, slightly better viewing angles than PVA
LTM240M2-L02 - Newer S-PVA, now with blurry text
 
ToastyX said:
Older S-PVA panels had 8 domains while keeping the entire pixel lit.

I'm not sure, but I think these are the panel names:

LTM240M1-L01 - PVA
LTM240M2-L01 - Older S-PVA, slightly better viewing angles than PVA
LTM240M2-L02 - Newer S-PVA, now with blurry text
Click to expand...

This might be true, though as I said, the above describes the domain shift.
A little correction though.

LTM240W1 - PVA
LTM240M1 - APVA
LTM240M2 L1 - S-PVA
LTM240M2 L2 - S-PVA

The last two S-PVA's I think is minor revisions. I'll show you why, but I'll have to PM you this. You'll understand why... :)

This is why I got puzzled by the new matrix also.
 
I'm puzzled too. The Eizo have altered the way the pixel gets lit, so there's definitely a change here. :(
 
I think all the morons that have been claiming the LG 246 isn't blurry in every thread I post in have been officially wtf pwned by the pixel structure picture.

You don't have to look at 2 monitors side by side to know the thing is blurry either, it's obvious just looking at it alone.
 
bootstrap said:
Thanks for the explanation. I wonder why more people with the BenQ FP241W haven't been complaining about text blurriness, though, since if the issue is with the panel itself then this problem should be present on all models that use it, not just the LG. I wonder if the anti-glare coating on the LG is contributing to the problem as well?

All that said, I still think the word "blurry" is a bit of an exaggeration. I don't doubt that it's less sharp than other monitors, but I still find the text to be quite sharp, and certainly more than sufficient for my needs.
Click to expand...
The BenQ also uses a P-MVA panel made by AU Optronics, so it's got the same problem with text. My 19" ViewSonic LCD also uses the same type of panel and I don't see a difference in text sharpness over the LG. I generally sit about 3' away from the screen because the pixel structure disappears and the text is sharper. People bitching about blurriness must have their noses pressed up to the screen.

I will admit that this LCD doesn't have razor sharp text. But, for what I paid for it ($499), and for the low input lag and minimal ghosting, I can live with less than ideal sharpness. If it were as blurry as some people are describing, eye fatigue would be an issue while I surf the web and these forums for hours at a time. I have not experienced soreness or redness of the eyes. This monitor clearly beats any 24" TN panel that you can buy. And the 24" Dell has ghosting issues and a higher input lag. If you don't game then the Dell might be the better option.
 
ToastyX said:
That's interesting. Now I don't know which has what anymore. :(
Click to expand...

Looks like its a new panel alright (thanks Badd!:) )t:
looks like the Dell 2407WFP-HC is using a Samsung S-PVA panel after all, there was a lot of talk about it maybe using AMVA, but not the case by the looks of things. I know there was also mention before it was using the LTM240CS panel, so now we have the supporting spec from Samsung
Click to expand...

http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1219906
 
Katerose said:
I'm not sure what you're seeing, but I've been using mine for Photoshop work and have been getting great results. I was afraid an LCD would not be as good as a CRT for this but am happy with the results. I keep my NEC CRT right next to it for comparison and I don't see the problems you seem to have. I guess it is a subjective thing. As far as blurry,this must be with text for you because the sharpness in Photoshop is as much as I need.
Click to expand...

I am assuming you are using the Dell 2407 for Photoshop? Regardless of whether it is that or the LG 246, how pleased are you with the color rendition of the monitor? Has anyone seen either of these screens to compare with the Benq FP241? I am close to making a decision on a 24 inch monitor primarily for photography and I would appreciate any input!
 
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