Silicon Valley Wages Are Shrinking for All Except the Top 90th Percentile

Discussion in 'HardForum Tech News' started by cageymaru, Nov 21, 2018.

  1. opfreak

    opfreak Gawd

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    Flat taxes are stupid.

    I think income taxes should be tied to income. IE the people that making 90% of the income pay 90% of income taxes.
     
  2. Dayaks

    Dayaks [H]ardness Supreme

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    You know, your first line and second line are in direct conflict lol.

    With a flat tax the people making 90% of the income would pay 90% of the income tax.... right now it’s way more lopsided against the high income.
     
  3. capt_cope

    capt_cope Gawd

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    Honestly, top 10% ain't saying much anymore. I'm in the top 10% of my state, and the bottom 90% are disgusting people, so fuck off and enjoy your sub-standard living as a human. I hope that also reserves your place in hell for being such a sub-par learner and worker. Either way, cretins grumble, and the more they grumble the less chance they'll adapt and gain the skills needed to survive the future.
     
  4. alxlwson

    alxlwson You Know Where I Live

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    Top 10% in my state with just a lowly certificate. Skilled trades ftw.

    Don't be the man that a robot replaces. Be the man installing/maintaining the robot.

    This article is shit. Why shouldn't the investors, the people that put up the money, get a return on their investment?

    It's like so many people just think businesses magically appear and then someone in a suit and tie comes and collects money like a NY or Chicago mobster. The only person like that is the government
     
  5. Nallexi

    Nallexi Limp Gawd

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    Well, what do you know.

    Unchecked mass migration from overseas DOES increase the difficulty of negotiating wages against employers.
     
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  6. FlawleZ

    FlawleZ Gawd

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    Too late. The secret got out. We have thousands moving here everyday from places like SoCal or NY. Houston is about to move up over Chicago as #3 and San Antonio is about overtake Phoenix for #6.
     
  7. 1Nocturnal101

    1Nocturnal101 Gawd

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    Its not that,

    A return on investment? That's not a guarantee, its an investment thus there are risks, I think people are mistaking Investment as an Entitlement that you have a right and a guarantee, Investing isn't enough, shoveling money doesn't mean you deserve what you are getting unless you are willing to get your own hands dirty, there are plenty of self made millionaires out there that worked their hands to the bone trying to get their investments to work out into a full fledged business to support them and their families

    The main problem is these robots are made by foreign companies, not on US soil, and not using US products, because those people want the cheapest solution, as they are replacing humans, Mechanics/Electricians/IT will only get lowballed on wages to keep overhead costs low.

    There is a distinctive difference between Running the business and ensuring profit for yourself and health of the business, versus, making millions and billions at the cost of lowballing employee wages so you as an investor are living comfortably while they can't, In the NE we have a lot of working poor that have 2 jobs and still can't make ends meet, some have degrees and skills but don't get the privilege of working in their chosen field for a decent wage.

    Someone older that was around in the 70's can you please explain the concept of,

    Alice Cooper's - Billion Dollar Babies , to some of these people and how we have really come to this point.

    or for that matter

    John Mellancamp Jr - Pink Houses
    Neil Young - Don't let it bring you down
    Bob Dylan

    I mean people want to be trendy and say they listen to this kind of stuff, but damn people are stupid never pulling meaning or the social connotations of what made this stuff so good.
     
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  8. 1Nocturnal101

    1Nocturnal101 Gawd

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    Stay on Topic, we are talking about one of the richest areas in the US, not the entirety of the US, just Silicon Valley, as it doesn't equate, even if I considered it as the whole of the US I would be in their with you as well. You know who and what I am speaking about, If you own a company that rakes in Billions and millions a year at the cost of lowballing employee wages to report higher earnings so you can play Stock Market tickets ...your part of the problem, don't bring taxes into this either that entitlement doesn't fly with me, I am not talking about the little to medium guys making 6 figures running small business's that do what they have to in order to survive, In reality a lot of those guys/ladies are actually better to employees in a lot of ways. Should we talk about Silicon Valley? or how about Companies and Investors that rake in Billions and Millions that apparently don't give a damn about others, communities, or for that matter the economy of their sectors?
     
  9. IndyColtsFan

    IndyColtsFan Limp Gawd

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    Engineering graduates can make in the $60k-$70k range out of school with a Bachelor’s degree.
     
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  10. 1Nocturnal101

    1Nocturnal101 Gawd

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    A flat tax ensures everyone pays the same percentage, no tax breaks, as it equates the same for everyone, is it really fair to the guy making 35k a year that he has to pay 25-30% when someone making 500k or more is only paying 10-15%, income is income, that 25-35% is more important to the 35k$ guy simply because its the difference between him surviving and raising a family. You make more you pay more, its a percentage, yet no one is singled out, and that is the important thing.

    No entitlements for anyone, I always hear about people higher or at my level of income yelling about taxes and why they should pay so much for the little guys entitlements, well its for several reasons, but the main reason is people are just hypocritical you don't want to support entitlements yet the upper 10% of the country loves claiming them, people say no entitlements, but they go and accept them as long as it isn't their entitlement going away.

    Square Deal Economics - It works for everyone or no one, its as simple as that, there is no, they cant have entitlements but I get to keep mine...…… The actual major issue for the country, Greed.
     
  11. velusip

    velusip [H]ard|Gawd

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    Using Google maps to see the economic turmoil they create. Brilliant.

    I clicked around town for a bit and can find people living out of their cars/vans/campers everywhere.
     
  12. TordanGow

    TordanGow Gawd

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    That article is complete bullcrap. I was poor, now I'm not. My parents made just enough money to get by and too much to have me qualify for financial aid - even though they wouldn't have paid for my degree anyways. I grew up with used clothes and jeans that were patched up (not to be trendy, but because there was no money for new ones). During the semesters I worked ~40 hours a week and went to school full time. Between semesters and especially over the summer I worked 70-80 hours a week. I didn't go on spring break trips financed through college debt. I didn't rack up credit card debt. I shared an apartment with 3 other people and drove a crappy beater car. In the end I finished my degree with ~3K of student loan debt which was easily and quickly paid off. In short I busted my ass and worked hard, I thought about major decisions and their repercussions before acting. I'm also not particularly smart or gifted... in other words, if I can do it so can others.

    With that said, I have zero sympathy for people who don't think about the costs and outcomes of their actions. Perhaps if you are barely making ends meet it might not be the time to have a kid or two. Did you think about the costs of raising a child/children (housing, clothes, food, medical care, etc.)? How about the opportunity cost in time spent caring for them? Please, spare me the pictures and sob stories of some poor and sad looking mother that didn't think about things first. The only ones I do have sympathy for are the ones that had terrible uncontrollable tragedies put them in that situation such as a parent dying at the hands of a drunk driver or whatnot. Those are the people that should be getting help, not people who made outright poor decisions.
     
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  13. 1Nocturnal101

    1Nocturnal101 Gawd

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    Yeah I'll agree, I probably need to eat words on the 10%, but I would adjust it to 5% or like you said even higher wage mark, or that lower percentage, I have no beef with those just trying to live a decent life, my only issue is with the selective morons of the country that want to live like the Fab 5(Vanderbilt, Rockafeller, Johnson, Bessemer, Carnagie) that are basically million/billion dollar babies and those that try to live the life of opulence without ever earning it and not doing a damn thing for the country in return, or when it comes at the cost of them living that lifestyle at the cost of their workers and the communities. People always babble about wanting to take away entitlements, just not their entitlements they benefit the most from them.

    I am not an economist by any means, but even watching Tech and taking part in the industry and the communities, you can watch what these companies are doing and in some cases they are killing the country, and industries in various ways, for what exactly? Stock market ticket prices with inflated gross earnings. Honestly I won't play the stock market because of companies like Apple, where perceptions of the company actually overtake what they are providing for the consumers, the line of lawsuits, and just the overall morals and ethics of their ecosystem. Closest I ever bought the products was a 5k IMAC that was useless and a Macintosh Amp, that has nothing to do with Apple, but still bears a similar logo. I have stocks but I accrued them working for quite a few companies, Alcoa, Alumax, Carp Tech, AA, which is what it is, I have zero interest playing a game of who can BS the most and trick people. Dissatisfied workers/Disgruntled Consumers/Aging patched together equipment - I've seen it so many times, and yet people actually think its a golden stock ticket.
     
  14. alxlwson

    alxlwson You Know Where I Live

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    Just an FYI, skilled trade wages are flying through the roof. Especially industrial maintenance. More techs required for all the automation. Most the robots come from Scandinavia, Germany, and Japan, because they are robot Kings.
     
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  15. zazzn

    zazzn Limp Gawd

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    They really should simply move away to less expensive areas, when the demands for blue-collar workers skyrocket so will the pay. Just like anything else supply and demand. Shitty thing to up root and move, but if you can't sustain you must move... Humans been doing this for thousands of years.
     
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  16. 1Nocturnal101

    1Nocturnal101 Gawd

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    3k student loan debt? Seriously, wow are you lucky you must have went to College/University before it was a business opportunity and they jacked up the rates to the point you are working poor coming out of college, or the fact the market was ripe to get a job and people with degrees weren't oversaturating the market.... So when does your delusion end that people did exactly what you did made all the right moves, did what they were told and went to college, and guess what they got screwed, and now those people that worked hard are working 2 jobs out of field or lowballed on payscale to the point they are still struggling.

    I agree anyone can do it, but there is much much more to the equation than just working hard to get there, luck does play a serious part, I am curious what do you thing of me, dual major Chem/Bio. Ba. with a Masters in Chemistry, Universities with a good name, top of the class, and offers starting at 35k a year......I went and became a Machinist making over 100k a year, I mean yeah the degree helped Metallurgy and all, really helps in computers believe it or not. I didn't go through hell to get lowballed by some dickhead in a suit, all I got was serious debt and working in a field not of my degree.
     
  17. 1Nocturnal101

    1Nocturnal101 Gawd

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    You are way out of your league here, no they are not "Flying through the roof" not unless you work for yourself, Industrial Maint. starts at 30k a year and in most corps tops out at 50-60k, Electricians can make a bit higher but top out at 70k Industrial I worked for Alcoa and Car Tech bud I set up those so called automated robots and made and programmed industrial machinery, My grandfather(1960's) created the solenoid system that allows furnaces for Aluminum to remain efficient, and was a WW2 Frogger Vet that became an Engineer while my dad is an Industrial Mechanic, grant it they made decent livings especially back in the 70's afterward inflation started taking root and the comparable wage versus inflation never really equated out. Hell aircraft mechanics don't break 60k unless you are willing to put in long shifts and extended hours...Doug Parker good for investors sucks to work for him though. BTW assembled in Germany and Europe, is not the same as being made in the EU, I had Italian Robotics that were mostly Asian made and not from Japan other than some of the capacitors for the electronical bits, but now Taiwan's are almost as good so for cost even they are getting fazed out to the cheaper version. Steel from Russia and China, I always loved having to do radioactivity tests on materials to ensure they weren't selling Churnobyl's scraps that were irradiated.

    Machinist sure because its a dying art and requires mechanical and engineering skills with a bit of metallurgy and knowledge of computers as well. Some of the offers I heard I laughed at.
     
  18. TordanGow

    TordanGow Gawd

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    It's all about choices. I went to a state school:

    Full-Time Student per Academic Year
    Bachelor's Degree
    Tuition $6,870
    Fees $1,610
    Total: $8,480 + Books/supplies


    https://open.suny.edu/content/tuition-financial-aid

    My costs were a little lower, around $7000/ year at the time but I graduated into the great recession as well. Not sure where you went to college, but if you were paying some outrageous tuition you could have always gone someplace a lot less expensive. Again, it comes down to choices. I don't feel sorry for people that took a $6000 spring break trip to Cancun on borrowed money. I don't feel sorry for people in debt up to their eyeballs from paying 40K/year to go to a private school when a similar quality of education was available at a fraction of the cost.

    There's nothing "lucky" about working 40-80 hours a week (depending on in/out of semester) to scrape up ~$10K/year. Anyone CAN do that if they work hard, no luck is needed.

    I don't know you personally, but I'd say look at job prospects, paysales, etc. *BEFORE* you pick a career path to make sure it meets your expectations/needs. Consider if the financial investment in education is worth it and will your future earnings provide for your needs. Will you need ongoing education and at what rate? Try to consider future changes to the job market you are entering. Obviously all the variables aren't precisely known, but you can work in number ranges and educated guesses to get a general fit.
     
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  19. alxlwson

    alxlwson You Know Where I Live

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    LMAO. You are out of your league here. I am an industrial maintenance tech, and there isn't a job out here in that trade for less than $28/hr, and all the OT you do or do not want.

    Sounds like you live in a shit area. Hate that for you.
    My end of year statement was $109k last year. Spent just under $3k for my maintenance certificate six years ago.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2018
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  20. Wierdo

    Wierdo [H]ard|Gawd

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    I always find is amusing that conservatives criticize California by what they normally measure as success. Its problems are closer to the ideal Capitalist scenario where tons of money is being made, the only problem is it's not equally shared among its residents.

    The solution? Oh dear, now it's gets funny, whenever proposed it's an evil socialist agenda lol.

    California, victim of its own success. A metric buttload of money, now how to split it.
     
  21. Tsumi

    Tsumi [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Because the solutions typically only squeeze the middle class and barely touches the top 5%. The crooked politicians are only looking out for themselves and those that give them the most money, yet the dumb Californians keep voting them into office over and over.
     
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  22. velusip

    velusip [H]ard|Gawd

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    It's worth noting that the jobs in question are not blue-collar jobs (skilled, full-time, contract, or task work), but mostly part-time labour jobs (no skills required). In the case of that video, part-time security positions. The whole point of part-time is cost savings by avoiding industry competition such as no legal requirement to providing benefits or any promise of stability.

    However, I still agree with you. "Move" is good advice. You cannot expect to have a good life doing this kind of work in an area where average land valuation outpaces median income. I've seen extreme cases of this all across Canada, but one in particular is Fort MacMurray where it got so bad that as the labour market started moving out, every industry started paying 2-3 times a common wage for even the most meager jobs. Larger/major cities are much slower to respond to this kind of trend, so people everywhere are struggling with the idea of moving out to small cities -- especially when they believe they "belong" to an area for whatever personal reasons.
     
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  23. Wierdo

    Wierdo [H]ard|Gawd

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    Yeah I'm sure the other party will help by taking out the middle class's safety nets.

    DpA0papVAAAfKDP.jpg

    The problem down here is we got all this capitalist "success" coming in without having proper control over property values and cost of goods, not everyone is as rich as these conglomerates and their well paid employees.

    That's not a bad thing in itself but - with that disproportionate kind of spending power affecting the value of everything - it's no wonder that it puts massive gentrification pressure on the areas involved. There's no proper balance being struck between that massive financial influx and the social changes that come with it.

    And then the foreign - massively rich - investment entities stepping in to buy up properties and cash in on the rising rent in places like San Fran on top of it all, without enough oversight or checks in place, is another icing on the cake.

    It's a problem for sure, just not portrayed very accurately from the outside for ulterior motives I think. Don't go championing unchecked capitalism allover the shambling red states and then turn around and call out Cali for having too much success in that area, or only when it's your turn now to be personally affected.

    Instead call for balance and putting social welfare on equal footing to business interests for a change, then sure, I'm with you 100 percent on that.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2018
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  24. alxlwson

    alxlwson You Know Where I Live

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    I'm middle class. What safety nets do you refer to?
     
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  25. GNUse_the_force

    GNUse_the_force Limp Gawd

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    This is due to Corporatism, not capitalism.


    Your conflating capitalism with corporatism and then suggesting socialism as an answer.
    (not the only answer, as i understand your post).

    The answer is (if it wasn't already abundantly clear) is less corruption. To do that you would have to start with removing the money out of politics. I watched a video recently where it is claimed a recent survey pretty much put every side of the political spectrum in agreement with this. Almost the entire populace would probably agree it's not a good idea.

    The issue is not capitalism. It is rampant Corporatism.
     
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  26. Tsumi

    Tsumi [H]ardForum Junkie

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    When did I say voting Republican would be the answer? I said crooked politicians, not crooked Democrats. They're all crooked, the lot of them.

    Jerry Brown just pushed through a proposal to build a 32 foot diameter tunnel to funnel water from the Sacramento river to Los Angeles. Do you have any idea what kind of ecological disaster this is going to be in the Sacramento Delta? And where are the environmentalist Democrats stopping this from happening?

    I can post something similar with Democrats. It'll be of poor people and young idealistic people saying "I vote Democrat to right the wrongs in the world," and there will be a rich person saying "I vote Democrat to make it look like I want to help the world when I'm just pushing through backroom dealings."
     
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  27. 45454asasa

    45454asasa Limp Gawd

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    Location is a big part of it. I know quite a few people with engineering degree and all started in the low 50s in the Midwest.
     
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  28. erek

    erek 2[H]4U

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    how long you been middle class for?
     
  29. alxlwson

    alxlwson You Know Where I Live

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    I dunno, last six or so years
     
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  30. Motley

    Motley 2[H]4U

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    This is what happens when you let hard left liberals run the state of California. They already have homeless poop all over the street, this just goddam disgusting.

    I hope all these people don't come to Denver, we are already at max capacity, not enough jobs here, house/rent is reaching Ca levels, and now we have L.A. traffic. Please move to Texas where Kyle is.
     
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  31. potency

    potency Gawd

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    Well, one argument is that the country as a whole was way stronger when the rich took care of those that their empires stood on. The system works when the wealth circulates and flows, not when it is funneled and tucked away. People get rich because they sell something that others need. But what happens when the others can no longer afford to buy? Then things start to look a lot more like feudalism.

    Greed makes people short-sighted. If the rich really want to ensure the cash keeps flowing, they have to re-invest in the system that makes it possible.
     
  32. tetris42

    tetris42 [H]ardness Supreme

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    Corporatism is just late-game capitalism anyway. You're talking like they're two completely different things, they're just an evolution of the same thing. It's like saying the problem is butterflies, not caterpillars.
     
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  33. erek

    erek 2[H]4U

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    whats the next phase?
     
  34. Unter Dog

    Unter Dog Limp Gawd

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    What state? My company is in North Dakota, Iowa, Illinois, Kansas, some other states and hires new grads ME and EE in the mid 60s. My wife's company is in Colorado and Missouri and hires in the 60s also for EE and CE new grads. I started in the mid 50s almost 15 years ago (EE).
     
  35. capt_cope

    capt_cope Gawd

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    Life is hard. It's even harder when you're stupid.

    /thread
     
  36. {NG}Fidel

    {NG}Fidel [H]ardness Supreme

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    Eaten by something smarter.
     
  37. 45454asasa

    45454asasa Limp Gawd

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    Wisconsin. Know an ME who started at 52 earlier this year.
     
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  38. NickJames

    NickJames [H]ardness Supreme

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    I get emails all the time for GS-12's in SF. The adjusted difference between Miami and San Fran is about +10K/year while living cost would essentially double if I move. Fuck that.
     
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  39. alxlwson

    alxlwson You Know Where I Live

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    Our ME' and EE's in the New Berlin area start around 60
     
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