Silicon Knights to Recall, Destroy Its Unreal Engine Games

CommanderFrank

CommanderFrank

Cat Can't Scratch It
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In lawsuits going back five years, Silicon Knights and Epic Games have been back and forth as to who did what to whom and to what extent. All of the legal wrangling just came to a screeching halt in May and the courts finally arrived at a fitting cash settlement and appropriate action against Silicon Knights.

Silicon Knights has never been what you’d describe as a prolific developer, so while this directive affects only a small handful of games, it’s still a pretty striking decision
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Fantastic. A company being forced to acquire and destroy its own products. I just hope the actual destruction process is filmed.
 
I wonder how many copies are out there. Anyone think a sealed copy will end up a collectors item several years down the road?
 
Who actually thinks that anybody s going to "send" copies of games back to them?
 
And yet another Nintendo company without the near constant hand holding of Nintendo flushes itself down the shitter.

We should just start calling this the Rare Cycle.
 
think the judgement is stupid but I can't really want to defend Silicon Knights.
 
Here's hoping that Silicon Knights will at least recycle everything then just junk it.

Sucks for them, but it doesn't have to suck for the planet.

Sincerely,
Captain Planet

captain-planet.jpeg
 
Merc1138 said:
Bah. Why read the article when you can just read the title of the article and make silly comments?
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exactly!

In any case, a headline/snippet should give a good idea of what the article contains.

A "recall" in retail terms usually means that they put out a notice for consumers so they can return and get a refund for something they already bought as well as pull all the currently on the shelf items as well.
 
Viper87227 said:
I wonder how many copies are out there. Anyone think a sealed copy will end up a collectors item several years down the road?
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Too Human and X-Men: Destiny? Too Human will just be another forgotten video game franchise that didn't take off and X-Men: Destiny is just one of many bad X-men video games. I've seen people pay a pretty penny for sillier things but the chances seem rather slim!


cyclone3d said:
A "recall" in retail terms usually means that they put out a notice for consumers so they can return and get a refund for something they already bought as well as pull all the currently on the shelf items as well.
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It's fairly standard for recalls not related to safety to happen without any consumer notice or involvement. Recalls for licensing reasons and such tend to be ignored by the mainstream news since the average person isn't directly effected or terribly interested in the inner workings of video game development, licensing, etc. Maybe if X-men:Destiny had been a more literal bomb with discs exploding people's consoles but short of that, not gonna happen. :D
 
Is anyone familiar with this case? The article isn't all that clear - it says that Epic was suing over license violations? What did Silicon Knights do, just refuse to pay the licensing fees after filing their suit?
 
I'm only familiar with the beginning of the case, then it sort of just dropped off radar til now.

Silicon Knights sued Epic for not helping them as they should when they licensed the engine, and said that Epic was concentrated their game, Gears of War, instead of giving support to them.

Somehow Epic counter sued, and then it came to this. =/

I can't support either side because Silicon Knights seem to put blame on their incredibly horrible game on Epic. And Epic's win seems to be too far, because even if they stopped paying for the license, the first game Too Human should've been payed off before any lawsuit happened.
 
How do you destroy a digital copy without actually gaining administrator privileges on the customer's computer and deleting the files?
 
JimmiG said:
How do you destroy a digital copy without actually gaining administrator privileges on the customer's computer and deleting the files?
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Step 1) Obtain IP Address
Step 2) Obtain service address from ISP
Step 3) Send B-52 to carpet bomb the area

It's very important to be thorough in these matters!
 
Serpent said:
I'm only familiar with the beginning of the case, then it sort of just dropped off radar til now.

Silicon Knights sued Epic for not helping them as they should when they licensed the engine, and said that Epic was concentrated their game, Gears of War, instead of giving support to them.

Somehow Epic counter sued, and then it came to this. =/

I can't support either side because Silicon Knights seem to put blame on their incredibly horrible game on Epic. And Epic's win seems to be too far, because even if they stopped paying for the license, the first game Too Human should've been payed off before any lawsuit happened.
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You would think so, but here's a rough timeline.


2001 Too Human started development for PS1

2000 Development changed from PS1 to GameCube

2005 Development changed to Xbox 360, Unreal Engine 3 licensed

2007 Silicon Knights says it's way hard to turn their GameCube game into an Unreal Engine 3 game for Xbox 360, and that Epic isn't supporting them well enough, and they won't pay any more licensing fees. The lawsuits begin.

2008 Despite all the reported problems with Unreal Engine 3 Too Human is finished and released with total sales of 800k+.

2011 X-Men: Destiny is released and apparently also used Unreal Engine 3.

2012 May - Epic wins $1.8 million in copyright & trade secrets infringement regarding unlicensed use of Unreal Engine 3 and $2.65 million for breach of contract, looks like Epic won at least some of their legal fees down the road as well.

2012 November - Court orders the destruction of all unsold copies of infringing games, maybe a bit harsh considering the $4.5 mil but it's not like there's a big demand for new copies of either game at this point anyways. Some other projects are also included, not sure if they were unreleased in-development or what.
 
Ya I think what people are missing here is two important facts:

1) SK's claim of Epic's non-support were bullshit. Notice that there haven't been any other developers going after Epic for non-support and UE3 is probably the most licensed engine out there (literally hundreds of games). Epic provides support as in explanation of how the engine works, features requests to an extent, and so on. They don't re-write your game for you.

2) SK decided they didn't want to pay any fees for using UE3. That is what got them this judgement. The UE3 code isn't sold, it is licensed, and for fairly hefty fees. You pay a substantial sum up front and then royalties per copy sold. SK didn't pay up, which means they were infringing on Epic's copyright (since their permission to distribute Epic's code was contingent on those fees) and they were in breach of their contract with Epic. Licenses at this level aren't a shrink-wrap non-enforceable bullshit deal. They are real contracts, signed by both sides before the deal.

Basically it looks like SK decided they'd pad their profits by not paying Epic, and Epic decided that wasn't going to happen. They had been suffering form Duke Nukem Forever syndrome, changing platforms and engines, which was probably burning through all their capital.

As for the destruction of the unsold copies, that is pretty normal in copyright infringement cases. The copies are infringing, and thus cannot be legally sold.

I feel no sympathy for them. You don't get to just rip another company off because you are running low on cash.
 
So, according to rumor, xbox is going download for their next version. And windows store is of course download. Will Microsoft be able to revoke games/software in the future remotely without your permission similar to how Kindle erased Animal Farm remotely from people who bought it.
 
Sycraft said:
Ya I think what people are missing here is two important facts:
[part 1 deleted, not commented on]

2) SK decided they didn't want to pay any fees for using UE3. That is what got them this judgement. The UE3 code isn't sold, it is licensed, and for fairly hefty fees. You pay a substantial sum up front and then royalties per copy sold. SK didn't pay up, which means they were infringing on Epic's copyright (since their permission to distribute Epic's code was contingent on those fees) and they were in breach of their contract with Epic. Licenses at this level aren't a shrink-wrap non-enforceable bullshit deal. They are real contracts, signed by both sides before the deal.

Basically it looks like SK decided they'd pad their profits by not paying Epic, and Epic decided that wasn't going to happen. They had been suffering form Duke Nukem Forever syndrome, changing platforms and engines, which was probably burning through all their capital.

As for the destruction of the unsold copies, that is pretty normal in copyright infringement cases. The copies are infringing, and thus cannot be legally sold.

I feel no sympathy for them. You don't get to just rip another company off because you are running low on cash.
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It should be noted that once you have a license, you no longer have to worry about any draconian copyright terms. Since the publishers write the laws, they make this as favorable as possible. Note that as the article is written, it appears that Silicon Knights owes Epic a ton of money for Too Human but is not required to pay (possibly because Epic didn't bother with the motions to wring blood from a stone).

This comes up more with authors (some publishers having a standard "royalties delivered promptly on receipt of a court order") and musicians (every few years a group of musicians sues for the payment of a large order of their back list). GPL software also has this problem as anyone who helps themselves for the code is merely infringing their license, whereas doing the same to commercial software is piracy.
 
jpm100 said:
So, according to rumor, xbox is going download for their next version. And windows store is of course download. Will Microsoft be able to revoke games/software in the future remotely without your permission similar to how Kindle erased Animal Farm remotely from people who bought it.
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It's probably still in the EULA that they can remote wipe your programs and data (for "any or no reason", or remove your software you publish for "any or no reason"), so most likely yes.
 
It is reasons like this that DRM exists...so the copy you legally bought of a game can be remote bricked thanks to a lawsuit you may not even know about.
 
Anyone who believes in IP laws and is against piracy should destroy their copy of any recent Silicon Knights game.
 
JimmiG said:
How do you destroy a digital copy without actually gaining administrator privileges on the customer's computer and deleting the files?
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Well, for one, they don't have any PC games... and I'm not sure if any of their console games were released for download. Maybe Too Human? Regardless, as stated, the recall applies ONLY to unsold copies. Anyone who owns the game will keep it, they aren't going to take it away.
 
BladeVenom said:
Anyone who believes in IP laws and is against piracy should destroy their copy of any recent Silicon Knights game.
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F that noise. I'm gonna go buy up all the copies of TH and Xmen, shits gonna be valuable when all the other copies are destroyed yo! ;)
 
So nice to see our tax dollars getting pissed down the drain (Silicon Knights was given a couple million or so from canadian government on the promise of job creation).
 
Talz said:
Step 1) Obtain IP Address
Step 2) Obtain service address from ISP
Step 3) Send B-52 to carpet bomb the area

It's very important to be thorough in these matters!
Click to expand...

Best to take off and nuke the site from orbit... It's the only way to be sure.
 
LordCalin said:
So nice to see our tax dollars getting pissed down the drain (Silicon Knights was given a couple million or so from canadian government on the promise of job creation).
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I used to pass by their office building every day until I moved recently. If this would of happened sooner I could of personally returned my $8 Too human I bought one day for shits and giggles at some EBGames store :D
 
Sycraft said:
Ya I think what people are missing here is two important facts:

1) SK's claim of Epic's non-support were bullshit. Notice that there haven't been any other developers going after Epic for non-support and UE3 is probably the most licensed engine out there (literally hundreds of games). Epic provides support as in explanation of how the engine works, features requests to an extent, and so on. They don't re-write your game for you.

2) SK decided they didn't want to pay any fees for using UE3. That is what got them this judgement. The UE3 code isn't sold, it is licensed, and for fairly hefty fees. You pay a substantial sum up front and then royalties per copy sold. SK didn't pay up, which means they were infringing on Epic's copyright (since their permission to distribute Epic's code was contingent on those fees) and they were in breach of their contract with Epic. Licenses at this level aren't a shrink-wrap non-enforceable bullshit deal. They are real contracts, signed by both sides before the deal.

Basically it looks like SK decided they'd pad their profits by not paying Epic, and Epic decided that wasn't going to happen. They had been suffering form Duke Nukem Forever syndrome, changing platforms and engines, which was probably burning through all their capital.

As for the destruction of the unsold copies, that is pretty normal in copyright infringement cases. The copies are infringing, and thus cannot be legally sold.

I feel no sympathy for them. You don't get to just rip another company off because you are running low on cash.
Click to expand...

This is a simple case of entitlement syndrome and blame anyone and everyone but yourselves. It's a rampant attitude in today's world. Silicon Knights licensed the engine. It is not up to Epic to teach you how to make a game based on their engine. I'd imagine support means little more than shipping the source code to Epic and providing the tools and SDK's needed to manipulate that code and import data from other sources like modeling programs. I'd wager their involvement goes little beyond that. If a game isn't performing correctly Epic might look at it and say you've got 1,6384x16,384 sized textures here and the game engine only handles 8,192x8,192 sized textures and smaller.

But aside from that it's up to the developer to make the best of the engine. Silicon Knights sued Epic because their games "performed poorly" in terms of sales and they wanted to blame Epic for the fact they can't make a good game. I knew this wouldn't end well for Silicon Knights given that some of the best selling and popular games out there used some version of the Unreal Engine. Examples:
  • Batman Arkham Asylum
  • Batman Arkham City
  • Gears of War 1-3
  • Mass Effect 1-3
  • Mortal Kombat (2011)
And many many more for a multitude of platforms and game types. The point being that licensing a good engine doesn't automatically mean your game will be good. If a book isn't good is it reasonable to blame the paper or the ink?
 
doho7744 said:
F that noise. I'm gonna go buy up all the copies of TH and Xmen, shits gonna be valuable when all the other copies are destroyed yo! ;)
Click to expand...
I bought X-men for $5. Although I didn't dislike it. Anymore than $5 and I would not have been too happy.

I use to think that the X-men series did something other than be whine about the plight of being mutants. Maybe the series was always that way. I'm talking pre-90's. Anyway, its kind of gotten old.
 
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