Should i go TN for gaming?

[Lyric Suite]

I was looking to upgrade my current panel, and wanted to get an IPS because i really liked the picture quality last time i had one. The problem is that there doesn't seem to be many attractive alternatives. Right now i'm looking at something like a BenQ XL2411Z. Originally was going for the Foris FG2421 but heard a lot of horror stories regarding this monitor and i don't feel like playing lottery (especially since i live in Italy, a third world country by North American standards, heh). The only IPS screen i might consider over those is the Dell UltraSharp U2515H. Bigger screen (but not too big, i'm fairly close to my monitor in my desk. I often watch movies from my bed though so the bigger size might help there), IPS and higher pixel density but lower everything else.

For the record, my current system is an FX-8350 with 8GB of memory and a GTX 660 non-TI. I'm planning of upgrading to at least a 970 but that's about it. My budget is currently around 600 euros (give or take) and i have to be able to fit both the monitor and the graphic card into it,

Also, as a small aside, i often tend to suffer from eye strain after prolonged computer usage. Anything that could help in that department would be a bonus as well.

 

[rabidz7]

What is wrong with the FG2421? It is supposed to be a very nice LCD, other than the aspect ratio and matte coat. You could also think about getting a CRT monitor. If you still want a LCD, the FG2421 is a good option. If you don't want a high refresh rate, you could get a 30" 2560x1600 IPS from Korea. That Dell monitor is 16:9, so I would avoid it. You'd be better off with a 24" 1920x1200 or a 20" 1600x1200. If you can find one, there were 25.5" 1920x1200 monitors made.

 

[Lyric Suite]

I heard Ezio uses the discarded parts for their more expensive monitors to make the FG2421. As i said i don't feel like playing lottery and by the sound of it it looks like that's what's going to happen with the FG2421. Plus the monitor costs around 380 Euros at Amazon.it which is already pushing it price wise.

I'm not into the 16:9 vs 16:10 debacle so i don't care, just looking for the best monitor i can get. Not buying anything from Korea either.

Just been reading about BenQ XL2411Z on various forums, and people say it has crappy colors. Is that true?

 

[NCX]

I was looking to upgrade my current panel, and wanted to get an IPS because i really liked the picture quality last time i had one. The problem is that there doesn't seem to be many attractive alternatives. Right now i'm looking at something like a BenQ XL2411Z. Originally was going for the Foris FG2421 but heard a lot of horror stories regarding this monitor and i don't feel like playing lottery (especially since i live in Italy, a third world country by North American standards, heh). The only IPS screen i might consider over those is the Dell UltraSharp U2515H. Bigger screen (but not too big, i'm fairly close to my monitor in my desk. I often watch movies from my bed though so the bigger size might help there), IPS and higher pixel density but lower everything else.

Best to avoid the FG2421 on principle alone, plus it is a rip off considering its performance and terrible quality control. The XL2411Z has poor colours and contrast along with the rest of the sub 300$ 144hz TN panels compared to the LG 24GM77 (more information and review links). It's also best to ignore rabidz since his posts are filled with "opposite facts."

The cheap 30" Korean monitors use ancient (2006-2007 tech) CCFL back-lit panels with very grainy matte coatings, have slow pixel response times, low contrast/poor black depth, suffer from very obvious white glow in the bottom corners when viewing dark content from less than 120cm/4ft away, and most use wide gamut panels which vastly over-saturate colours, especially reds and greens=sun burned skin and/or puke green skin tones and colour tints. The cheap 30" Korean monitors with non-wide gamut panels don't support HDCP=no non-browser media playback. If I were a fucking idiot I would recommend cheap 30" Korean monitors.

The BenQ XL2430T is the next best 144hz option, but it is significantly inferior compared to the LG 24GM77, and the U2515H is definitely a better option for watching content from your bed since TN panels vertical viewing angles are very, very poor. Consider the Asus MG279Q which uses a 144hz 1440p AHVA panel, is available for around 600 euros and supports Free-Sync (30-90fps) which eliminates screen tearing and V-Sync induced stutter and lag when connected to certain AMD graphics cards. Best Reviewed 27" 2560x1440 Monitors.

 

[mls1995]

LG 24GM77 is officially discontinued. FYI. I had one and it had a dead DisplayPort. Not sure what happens when you buy a monitor and need support after the manufacturer states the product is discontinued.

I'd look at benq.

 

[Lyric Suite]

600 Euros is almost double of what i wanted to spend. The monitor is 27". Don't they have a smaller version that is cheaper?

 

[NCX]

600 Euros is almost double of what i wanted to spend. The monitor is 27". Don't they have a smaller version that is cheaper?

I missed the part about fitting both the gpu and monitor into the budget, and no to your second question unless you buy a terrible TN with Free-Sync (AOC G2460PF which has terrible colours). The Dell U2515H is pretty much as good as a 60hz AHVA/IS/PLS panel can be, but it uses a frame-less casing, and all frame-less monitors have inner black bezels which ruin the perceived black depth (example) when not used in extremely bright rooms, or used with bias lighting (bright light placed behind the monitor; more information & lighting comparisons).

http://www.prad.de/new/monitore/test/2015/test-dell-u2515h.html

 

[Lyric Suite]

So basically, i'm back to where i was. It is either the U2515H or any of those gaming TN monitors, with the BenQ XL2411Z being the cheapest at 280 euros, only 20 euros behind the Dell.

 

[rayz]

What about the LG that NCX mentioned? It's still available at some sites - and deals are popping up on the 970 - should be close to or less than 600 euros for the pair

 

[Lyric Suite]

This one, right?

http://www.amazon.it/LG-24GM77-B-Ga...UTF8&qid=1447948605&sr=8-1&keywords=LG+24GM77

Is it better than the BenQ?

 

[General Lee]

I wouldn't go with the old 144 Hz TN gaming panels, they're very poor in terms of image quality, and especially if you're going to be watching movies from further away.

I think Samsung had some lower budget FreeSync models if you're willing to go with AMD graphics. S27E370D or S24E370D are within your budget, but they are 1080p PLS panels. With Nvidia Gsync is too expensive, so I'd say the U2515H is a good pick, especially if you don't have a lot of room on the desk. Also Nvidia might be the better pick if you're sticking with the AMD CPU that's going to create some CPU bottlenecking in DX11 games. But then again, FreeSync could really help smooth out any drops below 60.

 

[rayz]

This one, right?

http://www.amazon.it/LG-24GM77-B-Ga...UTF8&qid=1447948605&sr=8-1&keywords=LG+24GM77

Is it better than the BenQ?

Yes, that one. I couldn't comment on if it's better / worse than anything, but the review link NCX posted seemed to think it was a good performer for the price. I'm going to consider it myself as it seems to suit my needs.

 

[NCX]

This one, right? LG 24GM77. Is it better than the BenQ?

Yes, the LG 24GM77 is by far the best budget 144hz monitors while the XL2411Z is awful, but the LG is still a bad choice for watching movies from a reclined position. I check all of the in depth review sites and am not aware of any 1080p Samsung Free-Sync PLS reviews, but they're likely fine aside from the fact that they probably suffer from far more glow than 2015 1080p AH-IPS since the 2014 1080p PLS panels did. The Dell U251H bests all of the 1080p IPS/PLS image quality wise aside from the HP 25-27 CW and XW series monitors (HP 27CW and 25XW Review) and the overpriced Eizo EV2336 (Eizo information & review links).

 

[rabidz7]

Best to avoid the FG2421 on principle alone, plus it is a rip off considering its performance and terrible quality control. The XL2411Z has poor colours and contrast along with the rest of the sub 300$ 144hz TN panels compared to the LG 24GM77 (more information and review links). It's also best to ignore rabidz since his posts are filled with "opposite facts."

The cheap 30" Korean monitors use ancient (2006-2007 tech) CCFL back-lit panels with very grainy matte coatings, have slow pixel response times, low contrast/poor black depth, suffer from very obvious white glow in the bottom corners when viewing dark content from less than 120cm/4ft away, and most use wide gamut panels which vastly over-saturate colours, especially reds and greens=sun burned skin and/or puke green skin tones and colour tints. The cheap 30" Korean monitors with non-wide gamut panels don't support HDCP=no non-browser media playback. If I were a fucking idiot I would recommend cheap 30" Korean monitors.

Maybe you should stop insulting me and telling users to ignore me.

H.D.C.P is DRM in your monitor. DRM in your monitor is BAD. H.D.C.P is something to avoid; it is hard to do that these days, as almost all name-brand monitors are encumbered, but being DRM-free is a huge advantage. Don't stuff the DRM pushers' pockets. You can watch blu-rays, DVDs and downloaded movies without H.D.C.P. You just need to rip and crack the blu-rays and get your movies from a reputable source, such as BitTorrent. The 30 inch Korean monitors have their issues, but all of them can be corrected with a bit of modding. You can remove a matte coat, adjust the panel to reduce backlight bleed, perform a color calibration and swap a CCFL tube when it wears out. You can't add more vertical pixels to a 16:9 monitor.

GSINK and FSINK are worthless trash. Total marketing gimmics. Backlight strobing is a very important feature to look for. Strobing can't be used with any SINKs, making strobing one major reason to avoid SINKs. The only thing you sink by getting a monitor with GSINK or FSINK is money. The 24GM77 and FG2421 both support strobing.

I will say that the 24GM77 is a good suggestion.

 

[Firepc]

Maybe you should stop insulting me and telling users to ignore me.

H.D.C.P is DRM in your monitor. DRM in your monitor is BAD. H.D.C.P is something to avoid; it is hard to do that these days, as almost all name-brand monitors are encumbered, but being DRM-free is a huge advantage. Don't stuff the DRM pushers' pockets. You can watch blu-rays, DVDs and downloaded movies without H.D.C.P. You just need to rip and crack the blu-rays and get your movies from a reputable source, such as BitTorrent. The 30 inch Korean monitors have their issues, but all of them can be corrected with a bit of modding. You can remove a matte coat, adjust the panel to reduce backlight bleed, perform a color calibration and swap a CCFL tube when it wears out. You can't add more vertical pixels to a 16:9 monitor.

GSINK and FSINK are worthless trash. Total marketing gimmics. Backlight strobing is a very important feature to look for. Strobing can't be used with any SINKs, making strobing one major reason to avoid SINKs. The only thing you sink by getting a monitor with GSINK or FSINK is money. The 24GM77 and FG2421 both support strobing.

I will say that the 24GM77 is a good suggestion.

So you're saying people should watch movies illegally. Basically steal the hard work of others? Great suggestion.

 

[NCX]

Maybe you should stop insulting me and telling users to ignore me.

Maybe you should read some reviews instead of continuing to fill this forum with obviously extremely ignorant and outdated opinions.

You just need to rip and crack the blu-rays and get your movies from a reputable source, such as BitTorrent.

lol.

The 30 inch Korean monitors have their issues, but all of them can be corrected with a bit of modding. You can remove a matte coat, adjust the panel to reduce backlight bleed, perform a color calibration and swap a CCFL tube when it wears out. You can't add more vertical pixels to a 16:9 monitor.

A wide gamut monitor without an sRGB mode (the wide gamut Korean monitors lack sRGB modes) can only display colours properly if used with programs which support colour management which excludes games, movie playback software and external devices like PVR's, Apple TV, consoles and blu-ray players.

Encouraging someone to spend a few hundred <insert currency> on a monitor which requires a very risky modification to not look very grainy compared to modern monitors, suffers from far more glow than modern monitors, has very poor contrast/black depth compared to modern monitors, can't display colours properly compared to modern monitors or can't display consumer media without torrents and hacks in order to gain access to an extra 120 pixels/beloved 16:10 resolution justifies me asking this rhetorical question:

Are you trolling, or are you incredibly ignorant about monitors as well as incapable of thinking rationally?

 

[Deleted member 273615]

I was looking to upgrade my current panel, and wanted to get an IPS because i really liked the picture quality last time i had one. The problem is that there doesn't seem to be many attractive alternatives. Right now i'm looking at something like a BenQ XL2411Z. Originally was going for the Foris FG2421 but heard a lot of horror stories regarding this monitor and i don't feel like playing lottery (especially since i live in Italy, a third world country by North American standards, heh). The only IPS screen i might consider over those is the Dell UltraSharp U2515H. Bigger screen (but not too big, i'm fairly close to my monitor in my desk. I often watch movies from my bed though so the bigger size might help there), IPS and higher pixel density but lower everything else.

For the record, my current system is an FX-8350 with 8GB of memory and a GTX 660 non-TI. I'm planning of upgrading to at least a 970 but that's about it. My budget is currently around 600 euros (give or take) and i have to be able to fit both the monitor and the graphic card into it,

Also, as a small aside, i often tend to suffer from eye strain after prolonged computer usage. Anything that could help in that department would be a bonus as well.

At the moment there are very few gaming displays and the overall state of current gaming display selection and variety is exceptionally poor, but not trying Eizo Foris FG2421 was your first major mistake. I would give it a try and if it came with problems, I'd exchange at least 2x times to get a better unit simply because most other "gaming" monitors' image quality pales to FG2421 image quality. Eizo Foris FG2421 is one of the best gaming LED LCD monitors right now. It comes with excellent image quality, great black levels, high contrast ratio, and light-strobing @ 120Hz. Its not the best for competitive gaming, but it is awesome for casual SP and MP gaming. It does have a few major Con's to it, such as:
- Poor viewing angles - on some full-screen grayscale patterns, you can see brightness increase near left and right edges of the screen.
- Some screens shut down and restart randomly.
- Doesn't have very accurate colors, but accurate colors is not the same as high quality colors / image.
- Its not good for film watching.
- Of course some come with dead/bad pixels, but practically every monitor out there has a chance or having dead/bad pixels.
You're going to play the lottery with just about any monitor your purchase these days. It also doesn't have the most accurate colors (accurate colors is not the same as image quality) and its not great for watching films.

However, the Pro's of this monitor simply overwhelm the Con's.Eizo Foris FG2421 is the ONLY monitor (aside from CRT's) right now with the 2 most desirable / the most important gaming monitor aspects:
1. Image quality (due to high contrast ratio and low black levels)
2. Motion clarity (Turbo 240 120Hz Light-Strobing)
No other LCD monitor has both of these aspects. You can also make it produce very accurate IPS-level colors if you calibrate it and make a ReShade dispcalGUI 3DLUT. That's what I did and I am getting color accuracy better than any non-calibrated IPS or even calibrated one.

TN monitors have:
- Much worse image quality.
- Terrible contrast ratio.
- Horrible color accuracy.
- Seriously bad viewing angles (worse than FG2421).
- Excellent and super-clean/clear motion.
- Very low input lag.
- Fastest response time
B]TN panels are the best monitors for competitive MP gaming[/B], but not the kind of gaming, where you want to enjoy games' visuals.

IPS monitors have:
- Usually accurate colors.
- The best viewing angles.
- Usually good response time.
- Usually low-ish input lag.
- Bad image quality due to very low contrast ratio and very poor black levels.
- Further image-quality-destroying IPS glow.

Do you want an advice on which display to purchase for gaming? Here are your choices are from best to worst:
1.Sony Trinitron FW900 1080p 24" CRT
- Exception contrast ratio & super black levels
- Incredible image quality
- Amazingly low response time
- Very low input lag
- Really good color accuracy
- Not as sharp as LCD panels (pixels on CRT's are always a bit blurry), but it can be compensated with something like ReSahde CustomFX AdaptiveSharpen and/or ReShade SweetFX LumaSharpen.
- Heavy
- Dim, although CRT's do not need to be as bright as LCD's. Dim image is excellent for eye strain prevention
- Calibration takes a very long time and a lot of effort

2. High-end plasma TV (any size)
- Exception contrast ratio & super black levels.
- Incredible image quality.
- Great color accuracy.
- Awesome motion at 60Hz (about the same as TN panel @ 120Hz ULMB / Light-Boost).
- Very high input lag.

3. Eizo Foris FG2421 1080p 24" LED LCD (already described its Con's and Pro's in previous paragraphs)

4. Sony X810C TV 4K TV (50"+ I think)
- Great image quality.
- High contrast ratio & excellent black levels (without gimmicky local / micro dimming)
- Good motion clarity due to Sony's "Clearness" light-strobing (similar to Eizo Foris FG2421).
- Good input lag (about 30ms) for SP gaming.
- 4K requires very high-end / enthusiast-level hardware.

I may have skipped a few Pro's and Con's of the display types and models above, but I did describe them in general sense. PM me if you have any questions.

 

[Lyric Suite]

I appreciate the effort put into that post and i find the information very useful, but some of those suggestions are a bit absurd. Plasma screens are all super expensive and that 50 inches screen recommendation. On my desk i'm less then a meter away from the screen. 50 inches is a bit much, wouldn't you say? And i really don't have the space for a CRT either. That thing would be 20 inches from my face.

Also, not to derail my own thread, but what competitive games lol (old school Quake 3 veteran here, i always get the urge to vent a bit when people speak of competitive anything).

But, it looks like the Eizo was kicked back into play. Now of course i know every monitor is a gamble, but with the Eizo it seems you are guaranteed to have a bad model more than the other way around, if it is true that they use discarded parts from their higher priced monitors, right? Not saying this is going to be the case, just what i heard.

 

[Nenu]

Another consideration is a DLP projector if you have the room and wall space.
It will certainly help with eye strain if you have the space to fit it.

There are some great options these days.
Benefits are a HUGE immersive experience and very low input lag.
If the pj is chosen well, bulbs last a long time and are cheap to replace.

I'm running the Optoma HD131x, it looks like a wall sized Plasma screen.
Mouse movement is instantaneous. The lag is so low as to be imperceptible.
It is very quiet, surprisingly quiet.
Bulb life is rated for 3500hrs at max brightness and 6000hrs on eco mode.
I'm closing on 4000hrs at max brightness so the life is genuine and bulbs are only £120 !
This particular pj needs 4m throw to get over 100" screen and should be ceiling mounted just above the screen or floor mounted just below the screen.
I gave my Panasonic Plasma TV away after buying this.

 

[Deleted member 273615]

I appreciate the effort put into that post and i find the information very useful, but some of those suggestions are a bit absurd. Plasma screens are all super expensive and that 50 inches screen recommendation. On my desk i'm less then a meter away from the screen. 50 inches is a bit much, wouldn't you say? And i really don't have the space for a CRT either. That thing would be 20 inches from my face.

Also, not to derail my own thread, but what competitive games lol (old school Quake 3 veteran here, i always get the urge to vent a bit when people speak of competitive anything).

But, it looks like the Eizo was kicked back into play. Now of course i know every monitor is a gamble, but with the Eizo it seems you are guaranteed to have a bad model more than the other way around, if it is true that they use discarded parts from their higher priced monitors, right? Not saying this is going to be the case, just what i heard.

There was no 50" recommendation. I think that was a miscommunication. I was trying to say that there aren't any recent high-end plasma TV's below 50", except for Panasonic 40" ST60 and I think the 40" version is sold only in Europe. Obviously a large-screen display isn't meant to be looked at from a short distance, but a longer one, which, IMHO, would be such a TV viable for PC gaming IF it wasn't for piss-poor input lag. Of course, you'd have to carefully use plasma TV's with games not to create heavy image retention that may take hours to erase with built-in IR erase tools.

Competitive gaming is BF4, CS:GO, Team Fortress 2, etc.

Eizo Foris 2421 is not guaranteed to come with a bad panel. In fact, I think the chances are higher that it will come with a good panel, but one needs to know ahead of time what to expect and the causes of whichever possible problems. Too many people never had a VA monitor and had no idea what to expect, what caused the problems the described, and had no idea how to even test the monitor. Those are the people who gave this monitor 1/5 or 2/5 review ratings. There are 2 major Con's present on FG2421:
1. Poor Viewing Angles + Gamma Shift near the left and right edges of the screen (more on the right than on the left)
2. Random Unit Restarts / Reboots:

1. Poor Viewing Angles + Gamma Shift:
I do not think that's an actual defect, although some screens come with less of that and some with more of that. Some ignorant people call it "light bleeding" or "fog" or "brightness", and its none of those things. True "Light/backlight bleeding" problems (that come with most IPS and some TN panels) are easy to spot on 100% black fullscreen background. FG2421 produces 0 of such "bleeding" on 100% black fullscreen background. The poor viewing angles + gamma shift problem affects only certain grayscale % fullscreen backgrounds. For example, I have yet to see a single screen when playing The Witcher 3, Dragon Age: Inquisition, Fallout 4, Skyrim, Killing Floor 2, Life is Strange, and a ton of other games where this viewing angle + gamma shift issue is visible. However, if I load a 20-40% dark gray, dark red, dark blue, dark green fullscreen image on my FG2421, then this brightness increase that occurs as the screen approach left and right edges become quite obvious. Films mostly uses darker grays of similar sort and FG2421's poor viewing angles are notice-able in films quite often. As I stated earlier, this problem is almost never visible in GAMES and FG2421 is specifically targeting GAMING, therefore it does exactly what it was made for without that edge-brightness increase as a major Con. Its the THE worst thing about FG2421. Tip: the closer to the monitor you sit, the more visible is this problem, so the further you sit, the less noticeable it gets.

Here's this poor viewing angles issue at its worst:

That was NOT a 100% black fullscreen image, but a very dark gray one. A full 100% black fullscreen image on FG2421 produces none of that and of course blacks in games are NOT affected by this issue. In fact, as I stated earlier, it is very hard to spot this issue in games, borderline impossible. Here are some photos of people gaming on FG2421:

Below is a rare example of how viewing angles + gamma shift problem affects a PC game on a very specific pattern:

2. Random Unit Restarts / Reboots:
Some units randomly restart (takes 5-7 seconds before you get back to your image), randomly and that IS a defect that affects only certain screen. It affects mine, but it does it rarely and I didn't want to gamble since my screen was otherwise perfect, aside from left/right edge-brightness increase I described earlier.

Other Possible Issues:
Just most other VA panels, be they monitors or TV's, FG2421's screen may seem a bit "dirty", but it isn't dirt - its uniformity, which is better on VA monitors than on TV monitors, but not as good as on IPS monitors. Those who are unaware of this may yell "OMG, my screen is 100% perfectly clean and has VERY mild "dirt"-like "smudges" (underneath the screen), which is as I stated earlier - imperfect uniformity. These uniformity "smudges" are mostly seen on light-gray, white or very light background, but they are mostly invisible in games.. This is why FG2421 should not be used for photo editing! It is meant to be used in GAMES, where it excels, but I use it for web browsing and even Netflix without problems.

Quality Control:
Does Eizo use discarded parts on their monitors? Yes, but this monitor was originally designed for a $5000 Pro-level (non-consumer) 3D Satellite Imagery work. Its of an industrial high-quality design. To provide such high quality, Eizo had to use very strict and rigid Quality Control to make sure only the best of the best screens make it to that $5000 monitor. The ones that did not make it were indeed used for Eizo Foris FG2421, which was the only reason why FG2421 was even possible to begin-with! This practice is not uncommon among other manufacturers of monitors and other PC parts. For example, Intel high-end i7 CPU's target the highest clocks Intel decided they should reach. The ones that reach those clocks, get the high-end i7 label, but many do not, and they are re-labeled are slower CPU's at lower clocks because they were technically defective to pass Quality Control for higher-clocked CPU's. There is nothing wrong with that, especially in the field of PC monitors and especially the ones made for gaming. Many IPS monitors sold for $600-1000 were actually designed for non-consumer $10000+ monitors for professional editing of some sort, and the ones you get on your consumer versions were units that could not pass rigid Quality Controls to make it to those very expensive pro-level monitors.

Let's put it this way:
- IPS monitors have fewer defects and I think the most advanced technology, but IPS is the WRONG technology for gaming. With all of their "cleanliness", good viewing angles, no screen dirt, no other VA issues, it still produces a crappy flat low-quality image that lacks immersion.
- FG2421 comes with more defects and imperfections than most IPS and even more than most VA panels, but it uses the RIGHT technology to produce deep high-quality images in games in addition to excellent motion clarity.
- Here's a photo that shows exactly what I am talking about. FG2421 is on the right and with all of its "defects" (which you cannot see on that picture anyway), it produces a much deeper and more immersive image than IPS and TN panels (in the middle and on the left):

Again, FG2421 is very far FAR from perfect, but there is no IPS or TN LCD out there that can produce a better, higher-quality, and deeper image in games.

FG2421 also comes with Dithering, which is a good thing. It let's you see more colors than its color depth output (8bit) allows. Some ignorant people go crazy saying "OMG, I can see pixels CRAWL when I get real close to the monitor and stare at pixels! WTH is that?". Dithering is widely used by TN monitors to compensate for their native 6bit color depth, but it is also used by high quality 8bit and 10bit IPS and VA monitors . FG2421 is a true 8bit panel with monitor hardware-based dithering, but it isn't like FRC dithering, which is of higher quality and is controlled by the GPU, unlike purely panel-hardware-based dithering that FG2421 uses. True 10bit looks best, 8bit + 2bit FRC is the next in line, and 8bit + monitor hardware dithering looks slightly worse than 8bit + 2bit FRC, but it still looks superior to 8bit-only and makes our eyes perceive more colors (1.07billion instead of 8bit-only 16.7million). Some panels, like most recent TV VA panels (vastly superior to monitor VA panels!) come with 12bit output, but 12bit color depth isn't possible on LCD's, at least not yet. That means with 12bit output on VA TV you get true 10bit + Black Box (Uknown), which could be 2bit FRC dithering or LUT post-processing or whatever else.

 

[Deleted member 273615]

Here's an image that shows FG2421 with 100% black fullscreen background:

On most IPS panels, you would use backlight bleeding/leakage, but not on FG2421.

 

[Lyric Suite]

I see what you are saying in this image, but why are the colors so different on the Ezio? Is that from using a different preset?

 

[Deleted member 273615]

I see what you are saying in this image, but why are the colors so different on the Ezio? Is that from using a different preset?

Whoever took that photo has not calibrated all 3 monitors to the same standard. I doubt that even Brightness was identical, so you cannot expect the image to look the same.

The biggest difference on that picture there is that TN and IPS cannot reproduce FG2421's image depth and black levels because they lack high static contrast ratio. Low contrast ratio = Flat Image (IPS and TN panels). High contrast ratio = Deep Immersive Image (high-end VA panels, plasma displays, OLED displays, some very high-end projectors). Only static one matters, dynamic contrast ratio is a gimmick. High contrast ratio affects all colors (not just black), making the picture look more 3D-like without the use of 3D Stereo glasses.

***Important*** - that comparison photo shows only relative difference between TN / IPS and FG2421 within limitations of the display on which the photo is presented!!! If you're viewing that photo on IPS or TN, you cannot see the degree of difference because your own monitor isn't capable of producing black levels and contrast that FG2421 can. Its another reason why some IPS and TN monitor owners are not impressed when they check out some IPS vs. VA photos online - they can't actually see the difference. The only true way to see the huge difference between those monitors is if you compare them in person OR at least if you're viewing that photo on FG2421 / high contrast plasma / high-contrast OLED, etc. Otherwise, you can't actually see the full depth, immersion, and image quality level because you're limited to your own TN's and IPS' image quality. At the very best IPS and TN panels have 1000:1 contrast ratio (usually lower), while FG2421 has about 4300-5300:1 contrast ratio. So, take a look again at the relative difference between TN, IPS, and FG2421 and then multiply it about 5x - that's how much better it would look like in person. If you view the photo on your IPS or TN monitor with 1000:1 contrast, you cannot possibly see how a 5000:1 contrast monitor performs.

There is yet another awesome thing about FG2421 - it uses semi-glossy screen, unlike what I think are matte screens on IPS and TN displays on that photo. FG2421's semi-glossy is about 75% glossy and 25% matte, which is frankly perfect as it reduces enough glare, but doesn't create matte pixel blur.

MUST-READ about Display Calibration:
FG2421 doesn't produce very accurate colors with factory settings, but as I've stated earlier - image accuracy and image quality are 2 different image aspects, although an accurate image is always better than inaccurate. On IPS monitors you often get very precise image accuracy and at the same time really bad image quality due to bad contrast and black levels and IPS glow.

FG2421's saturated colors are a bit off - Saturated Red has a hint of orange hue and Saturated Green is richer than it should be, along with yellow. None of this mess up image immersion because most important colors, like skin tones, are rather accurate. That means people's faces aren't going to be overly red or pale. They will look realistic and so will the rest of the world.

Today, you can get near-perfect full calibration on FG2421 that would outperform most factory-calibrated / uncalibrated IPS panels. That was not possible 7 months ago and Home-Theater Enthusiasts still spend $500 for special 3DLUT boxes to get the most accurate colors on their TV's. In layman's terms, 3DLUT (3D Look Up Table) is a file that takes into consideration colors your monitor can display and fixes them to be very accurate. FREE software 3DLUT's for madVR video renderer changed that, but they could only be applied to film playback. Then 6-7 months ago (100% free) ReShade began supporting 3DLUT's made by dispcalGUI & ArgyllCMS software package (also 100% free) and these 3DLUT's can be applied to 99% of all PC games!!! Its pretty much a SweetFX shader effect that needs a file specifically calibrated for your display. It was a big deal, but only a few knowledgeable people noticed it...

To make these highly accurate 3DLUT's for your display for both films and games possible, you do need to get at least a ColorMunki Display colorimeter for $175 (NOT Spyder ones - they ALL suck!) or i1Display Pro for $250 (a bit better than ColorMunki Display but uses identical hardware/provides identical accuracy). Colorimeters do not need upgrades, so its a one-time purchase to be used on ALL your current and upcoming displays, including monitors, TV's, and even projectors. It is WORTH EVERY PENNY. Software does 90% of calibration for you, while you just take a break and have something to eat, go outside, etc. The other manual 10% is super-easy. I can guide you on how to perform a calibration in PM's if you'd like.

OR

You can use TFT Central's FG2421 OSD settings and ICC profile, which isn't likely to be accurate on your FG2421 because each monitor unit needs its own calibration, although sometimes results and settings from one monitor do apply rather well on a different unit of the same model. That's the worst way because games often reset ICC profiles, requiring you to use Borderless Window modes in games (that can stutter) and the use of ICC profile enforcers, like CPKeeper and Monitor Calibration Wizard, not to mention that only PARTIAL calibration cab be applied to games with ICC profiles. ICC profiles + ICC Enforcers + Windowed Borderless Mode + Windowed Borderless Mode tools used to be the only way to do things just 6-7 months ago, but not anymore because now you can have FULL 3DLUT calibration that requires none of that.

All in all, people aren't putting enough value to calibration, especially after recent advancements of free 3DLUT's and accurate colorimeters.

Back to FG2421. With calibrated 3DLUT, FG2421's somewhat sub-par saturated color accuracy becomes irreverent since 3DLUT fixes it entirely. In fact, because of 3DLUT's, display color accuracy is no longer an important factor since 3DLUT's can be applied to all monitors and fix their color accuracy problems.

 

[rabidz7]

So you're saying people should watch movies illegally. Basically steal the hard work of others? Great suggestion.

If a company sells movies that are encumbered with DRM, they don't deserve a cent. Especially if that DRM is hardware-locked. DRM-free movies don't have DRM. If you buy a blu-ray from the store and then crack + rip, it's illegal, but they do get their money. They were responsible for making it illegal to buy their encumbered, DRMed up products and then to make it fully-functional.

 

[rabidz7]

1.Sony Trinitron FW900 1080p 24" CRT

Not trying to nitpick here, but you wouldn't want to run 1080p on a FW900. 1920x1080 or 1440x1080 are the wrong aspect ratio and 1728x1080 is just weird. 1920x1200, 2048x1280, 2304x1440 and 2560x1600 are preferred. Most use 1920x1200 as their general-use resolution. Some go higher. 1680x1050, 1440x900 and 1152x720 are the typical low resolutions. 720p can run 160Hz. 1200p @ 96. 1600p @ 72.

 

[Comixbooks]

http://www.amazon.com/Alvin-CraftMa...&qid=1448030203&sr=1-8&keywords=drawing+table


Get a bigger Desk then go 27" or bigger..

 

[Deleted member 273615]

Not trying to nitpick here, but you wouldn't want to run 1080p on a FW900. 1920x1080 or 1440x1080 are the wrong aspect ratio and 1728x1080 is just weird. 1920x1200, 2048x1280, 2304x1440 and 2560x1600 are preferred. Most use 1920x1200 as their general-use resolution. Some go higher. 1680x1050, 1440x900 and 1152x720 are the typical low resolutions. 720p can run 160Hz. 1200p @ 96. 1600p @ 72.

I have not researched that yet, but I think you can adjust the height of the visible issue and measure it with a ruler or something like that. Or you can use good old 4:3.

 

[spacediver]

Not really any point to doing that (other than potentially squeezing out a slightly higher refresh rate). If you're running 1920x1200, and feed it with a 1080p signal, it'll naturally truncate it so you get 1:1 pixel mapping, so best to stick with 1920x1200 rather than try to finagle a 1080p resolution.

 

[kasakka]

TN monitors have:
- Much worse image quality.
- Terrible contrast ratio.
- Horrible color accuracy.
- Seriously bad viewing angles (worse than FG2421).
- Excellent and super-clean/clear motion.
- Very low input lag.
- Fastest response time
B]TN panels are the best monitors for competitive MP gaming[/B], but not the kind of gaming, where you want to enjoy games' visuals.

IPS monitors have:
- Usually accurate colors.
- The best viewing angles.
- Usually good response time.
- Usually low-ish input lag.
- Bad image quality due to very low contrast ratio and very poor black levels.
- Further image-quality-destroying IPS glow.

Seriously, if you're going to do this info dump in several threaads at least get your facts straight. If you go above the cheap TN panels you have just as good image quality as other 8-bit panels and very good color accuracy depending on the model. Viewing angles are the only real issue on the best 8-bit TN panels and even they are not anywhere as bad as some laptop or cheaper TN displays. I would avoid all cheap TN panels like the plague though.

IPS and VA displays can also have poor color accuracy, I've had a few that were very difficult to calibrate right. These days most good IPS/VA panels should come decently calibrated out of the box though.

Image quality as you well know is not just contrast ratios and black levels. IMO most good displays have more than acceptable black levels and contrast to the point it's difficult to tell a difference between several nice displays just by looking at it on the first go. Input lag also varies wildly from model to model especially if you add TVs to the mix though IPS panels generally manage about 16ms (1 frame) input lag at best.

For gaming the best display is generally one that has the least motion blur and can be calibrated accurately from display controls since many games ditch any calibration profiles you might have.

Given OPs budget I'd probably look at some good used IPS or VA displays as any 8-bit TN panels with G-Sync are out.

 

[Dcode]

OP would do right to avoid the FG2421.

In that pic you can see the shocking glow emitted on a dark screen. If you think that image looks good you need your bloody eyes testing.

I've had three of those FG2421's hoping for a good panel and all were shite. The PG278Q crushes this monitor in every way. The better contrasts don't even come into it when you have that big glowing grey tumor pushing its way out of the corner of the monitor when your playing Quake. If your happy with your panels fine but don't burden someone else with one. Yes black screens are fine but anything lighter than black looks terrible. Its too distracting. I cannot fathom how anyone could stand using this monitor for moving images.

If I was buying another 24" TN monitor i'd take NCXs advice and look at the LG or the Viewsonic VG2401MH as it allegedly uses the same panel and it has a nicer looking cabinet (to me).

 

[Deleted member 273615]

OP would do right to avoid the FG2421.

In that pic you can see the shocking glow emitted on a dark screen. If you think that image looks good you need your bloody eyes testing.

I've had three of those FG2421's hoping for a good panel and all were shite. The PG278Q crushes this monitor in every way. The better contrasts don't even come into it when you have that big glowing grey tumor pushing its way out of the corner of the monitor when your playing Quake. If your happy with your panels fine but don't burden someone else with one. Yes black screens are fine but anything lighter than black looks terrible. Its too distracting. I cannot fathom how anyone could stand using this monitor for moving images.

If I was buying another 24" TN monitor i'd take NCXs advice and look at the LG or the Viewsonic VG2401MH as it allegedly uses the same panel and it has a nicer looking cabinet (to me).

That almost never occurs in gaming. I have a ton of games and so far there have maybe been 2-3 pre-renderred videos that produced that glow. If you're willing to trade that for piece of crap contrast, then you know nothing of image quality.

One way or another, most people are dead-wrong about what's important for good image quality, and probably think BEATS headphones are great .

 

[Deleted member 273615]

Seriously, if you're going to do this info dump in several threaads at least get your facts straight. If you go above the cheap TN panels you have just as good image quality as other 8-bit panels and very good color accuracy depending on the model. Viewing angles are the only real issue on the best 8-bit TN panels and even they are not anywhere as bad as some laptop or cheaper TN displays. I would avoid all cheap TN panels like the plague though.

IPS and VA displays can also have poor color accuracy, I've had a few that were very difficult to calibrate right. These days most good IPS/VA panels should come decently calibrated out of the box though.

Image quality as you well know is not just contrast ratios and black levels. IMO most good displays have more than acceptable black levels and contrast to the point it's difficult to tell a difference between several nice displays just by looking at it on the first go. Input lag also varies wildly from model to model especially if you add TVs to the mix though IPS panels generally manage about 16ms (1 frame) input lag at best.

For gaming the best display is generally one that has the least motion blur and can be calibrated accurately from display controls since many games ditch any calibration profiles you might have.

Given OPs budget I'd probably look at some good used IPS or VA displays as any 8-bit TN panels with G-Sync are out.

That highlighted statement is absolutely hilarious. Have you even looked at the comparison image and the degree of difference as far as image depth goes??? Most TN panels, especially VG248QE, cannot actually produce accurate grayscale and cannot produce neutral grays at low grayscale levels. They look purple-ish no matter how you calibrate them. Even the ASUS ROG cannot display accurate colorspace, although it does have rather accurate grayscale from factory.

OP:
You can either listen to mostly-ignorant members here not knowing what they are talking about OR you can listen to the majority of Home Theater enthusiasts, display experts, color scientists, and pro calibrators, as well as, professional organizations related to that field. I never said FG2421 is a perfect monitor, its a 7/10 on my scale, worse than most high-end TV VA panels, like Sony X810C, but specifically in games, it produces an image quality far greater than any IPS or TN panel can produce, which on my scale are close to 4/10 or 5/10 at best.

Has anyone actually ever asked themselves why TV panels that are of much higher quality than monitor VA panels actually VA panels if they are so much worse than IPS? Asked why they are pushing for OLED for FALD and deeper contrast? Only low and mid-range TV's use crap IPS panels. There is one new IPS technology used in a single Panasonic TV prototype and it has excellent contrast, except its not available to consumers yet.

 

[Lyric Suite]

If I was buying another 24" TN monitor i'd take NCXs advice and look at the LG or the Viewsonic VG2401MH as it allegedly uses the same panel and it has a nicer looking cabinet (to me).

Does the Viewsonic have strobing as well?

 

[Lyric Suite]

BTW, what does anybody think of this?

http://www.amazon.it/AOC-G2460PF-LC...e=UTF8&qid=1448147548&sr=8-1&keywords=G2460PF

This is the cheapest FreeSync monitor i could find. Somebody here mentioned that those technologies are just a marketing gimmick. Mind if i ask in what way? On paper it sounds pretty good.

 

[Vittra]

G-sync/Freesync/Adaptive Sync matches monitor refresh rate to the GPU's outputted framerate, effectively eliminating screen-tearing.

Strobing reduces motion blur.

Each tech addresses a separate issue, but they cannot be used in tandem, which is what leads to people arguments of which is more effective. Not all freesync branded monitors have motion blur reduction tech, but all nvidia branded monitors that have Gsync will also have ULMB, which is their specific version of motion blur reduction, since both come from the gsync module.

G-sync's effective range is 30 - 144hz. Some recent monitors have overclocked G-Sync modules, increasing their effective range.

Freesync's effective range is 9hz - 240hz, BUT, it is actually dependent on the specific monitor's scalar. Example - MG279Q is 35 - 90hz.

 

[Dcode]

That almost never occurs in gaming. I have a ton of games and so far there have maybe been 2-3 pre-renderred videos that produced that glow. If you're willing to trade that for piece of crap contrast, then you know nothing of image quality.

One way or another, most people are dead-wrong about what's important for good image quality, and probably think BEATS headphones are great .

I determine good image quality by using my eyes.

That glow was present in most games I played. I wanted this monitor to be excellent I truly did. I am not posting this out of spite. But those monitors are not worth the attention unless your extremely dedicated, which sounds like you are, and you seem happy with your monitors and that's great. Who am I to tell you otherwise? I was being a bit aggressive putting my point across in my previous post so apologies if I offended you however the OP has asked opinions and I have given mine, as have others and it seems the OP has done his own research to come to his own conclusion the FG2421 is too problematic. So I am trying to save him the headache.

All three of the FG2421's I had were defective in some way. All three exhibited the so called crosshatching. Not sure if that is the correct way to call it but it looked like the bonding between the AG coating and the panel had gone tits up somewhere and not adhered correctly. All three had the glow in the corners. That was the biggest problem I had. If the monitor had not had these issues I would be sat here writing this post on one right now. Probably dissing the PG278Q

I know the PG278Q is not perfect and ASUS should be kicked in the balls for the hassle its causing its customers right now however in my experience I received two of these monitors and both were pixel perfect with great perceived uniformity. These monitors are capable of being almost perfect whereas the FG2421 is known for its issue with the edge glow. Make of this what you will but its documented here.

I can't prove this but I do firmly believe Eizo are putting panels that don't meet the QA standards for the FDF2405W into the FG2421. Which costs several grand more. I am not trying to put you off your monitors because if they work as intended they will be truly great. I just don't believe these should be recommended to someone who is not prepared for some hassle.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Pardon my ignorance, but is G-Sync/FreeSync even needed on monitors that are this fast? Doesn't look like i would have to use VSync at all except in very old games, and i was under the impression it is VSync that people are finding troublesome.

The strobing actually seems nice. Seems useful for isometric games as well, if i read what it does correctly.

So right now it is either the ViewSonic (assuming it has this strobing thingy) or the LG 24GM77-B. If the BenQ has worse colors than that's out, even if it is cheaper.

That, and the Ezio, but i want to see how this VA discussion pans out in the end, heh. One problem that i can foresee is that i always have decent illumination around my monitor, and depending on how bad of a black crush this monitor has i may find myself unable to see anything in the darker areas of a game. Or maybe i'm talking out of my ass, since i've never seen a VA.

Lastly, does the blue light thing works? I tend to get considerable eye strain (not to mention dry eyes) after prolonged use. Would that help, or it is just another gimmick?

 

[Dcode]

Pardon my ignorance, but is G-Sync/FreeSync even needed on monitors that are this fast? Doesn't look like i would have to use VSync at all except in very old games, and i was under the impression it is VSync that people are finding troublesome.

The strobing actually seems nice. Seems useful for isometric games as well, if i read what it does correctly.

So right now it is either the ViewSonic (assuming it has this strobing thingy) or the LG 24GM77-B. If the BenQ has worse colors than that's out, even if it is cheaper.

That, and the Ezio, but i want to see how this VA discussion pans out in the end, heh. One problem that i can foresee is that i always have decent illumination around my monitor, and depending on how bad of a black crush this monitor has i may find myself unable to see anything in the darker areas of a game. Or maybe i'm talking out of my ass, since i've never seen a VA.

Lastly, does the blue light thing works? I tend to get considerable eye strain (not to mention dry eyes) after prolonged use. Would that help, or it is just another gimmick?

Gysnc is not needed, its more of a luxury. Personally I really like it and I prefer it to strobing. Tearing is still present at 144hz without refresh rate syncing its just the image is refreshed so fast on the monitor that tearing happens 'quicker' so its less of an issue at 144 frames per second than 60 frames per second. Because the image tear is in and out of your vision much faster than it is at a lower frame rate. Gsync has its benefits in all games not just new ones. Everything glides along smooth as silk with no tearing or stuttering. Its how displays should have been made right from the start.

Strobing removes motion blur. I did write out an explanation but after reading back what I wrote I ended up confusing myself. This article does a better job of explaining the difference between sample and hold and strobing. Its good for fast paced FPS games but I personally prefer Gsync. Opinion on which technology you should use is entirely personal preference. A Gsync monitor will give you the option of either Gsync only or strobing. The FG2421 has its own (and very good I might add) native implementation of strobing built into the monitor. That's as far as I would go recommending it though.

VA monitors are wonderful. This technology has a lot to offer but I am afraid to say I don't think its where its at right now if your after something with a high refresh rate and quick response time. I really hope this changes soon.

The blue light thing I really can't comment on. The other capable people here will be able to fill you in on that I am sure.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Well, the argument is moot for me as far as GSync is concerned since the module costs too much. This is the cheapest GSync monitor i could find:

http://www.amazon.it/AOC-G2460PG-Mo...=1448157658&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=AOC+G2460PF

Compared to the FreeSync version this is a 150 euros jump. I could get a 390X with that extra money and stick to the FreeSync monitor, if i have a mind of going that much beyond my current budget.

So basically, my choices are the AOC G2460PF plus an AMD card, most likely a regular R9 390.

Or, the LG 24GM77-B plus whatever, either 970 or 390. I can't seem to find any information regarding whether the Viewsonic VG2401mh has strobing or not. I'm going to assume it does not, making this a less attractive option than the LG 24GM77-B.

And lastly, the Eizo FG2421, all though it seems i'd have to work to get a good one (I.E., multiple returns), which i'm not comfortable doing.

 

[zone74]

Pardon my ignorance, but is G-Sync/FreeSync even needed on monitors that are this fast? Doesn't look like i would have to use VSync at all except in very old games, and i was under the impression it is VSync that people are finding troublesome.

If you disable V-Sync you have the minimum possible latency, but you get screen tearing and judder because the framerate is not being synchronized to the refresh rate.
If you enable V-Sync you have 2+ frames of latency (minimal at 144 FPS, but still there) but there will be no stuttering as long as your framerate is equal to a factor of the refresh rate, since the framerate is being synchronized to the refresh rate.
G-Sync gives you minimal latency, zero tearing, and zero stutter. It does this by synchronizing the refresh rate to the framerate, instead of trying to sync up the framerate (highly variable) to a fixed refresh rate.

The strobing actually seems nice. Seems useful for isometric games as well, if i read what it does correctly.

Strobing should only be used in a V-Sync On situation when your framerate is equal to the refresh rate.
In any other conditions (V-Sync Off, Framerate lower than the refresh rate) you will get severe judder.
If you're playing less demanding games, strobing is great because it greatly improves motion clarity. But you need your framerate to be equal to the refresh rate for smooth motion.

Lastly, does the blue light thing works? I tend to get considerable eye strain (not to mention dry eyes) after prolonged use. Would that help, or it is just another gimmick?

If your monitor is properly calibrated to D65 at an appropriate brightness level for the room, it won't make much difference. The "low blue" modes on most monitors typically set the display to 6500K at the default, and go down to about 5000K at higher settings.
You would be better off running software like f.lux which dynamically adjusts based on the time of day, rather than buying a monitor with that specific feature.

If you're finding that you are straining your eyes, it doesn't hurt to get them tested. A lot of people think their eyesight is fine until they get it tested.
And if you do have (or need) corrective lenses, look into the new blue-blocking coatings that they offer.
Things like smartphones/tablets are generally more of an issue than computer monitors though, since they tend to be uncalibrated and put out more blue light.