SF3 3rd Strike is coming back for $15

Mozex

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Includes GGPO netcode, lobbies, DLC, lots of graphics filter options, etc. Looks to be a lot of game for the price. I wouldn't pay full price for 3S again, but hard to pass up for $15.

Part 1
Part 2
 

Domingo

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Should be interesting. Parries have a pretty tiny window for error, so they'll either have to adjust that for online play...or parries are pretty much out the window.
 

Mozex

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Yeah, their rep said something like "the best netcode of any Capcom fighter ever", which frankly isn't hard, but at least they admit they have a problem.

I tried playing some MvC3 online this weekend and while I admit I'm pretty mediocre at these games in the arcade I'm absolutely terrible online when I have any more than a few milliseconds of lag. I never had time to respond to anything and even doing something as simple as timing jumps over somebody spamming sentinel's beam-breath was infuriatingly difficult.
 

Domingo

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While something like SF4 is pretty online friendly, SF3 has a lot of single frame stuff, especially with parries. If they loosen up the timing with them it might be too easy or exploitable. However if they don't, a whole lot of the game will go out the window. I'd imagine that without parries or at least with them partially crippled the game balance will be skewed toward the pressure game.
I dunno - I actually liked SF3 the least of the series. Parries made the game a little too throw heavy for my tastes.
I would've preferred Alpha 3.
 

Domingo

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Beyond Alpha 3 having more characters, options, and a more "open" style of gameplay - I just think the whole nature of the game translates better online.

Plus, it might be personal preference, but the whole SF3 line-up felt like they were trying to make a SF/Darkstalkers hybrid and duplicate Street Fighter characters without completely duping them. Hugo? Necro? Remy? Q? C'mon. They're just knock offs with different art design.
 

NSCTripleAgent

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GGPO makes this possible. That's the only way parries, especially red parries, will be doable AT ALL online. I'm all over this.
 

Domingo

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Anyone get this yesterday? I actually think it's a complete mess.
Choosing rooms is a pain in the ass, so you're always stuck playing with like 7-8 people (F that - I'm not waiting in line) or playing ranked.
The supposedly wonderful lag free experience was the worst of the SF online games so far as well. The old Hugo sweep/butt slam mix-up is borderline unstoppable with any latency and I feel dirty even doing it.
I'd say this needs an overhaul already.
 

Domingo

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As a follow up for anyone considering this...a friend of mine bought it for both the PS3 and the 360 and he described the online experience as "night and day" better on the 360.
The match making system and game browser is still absolutely horrendous to the point of making the game a chore...BUT at least it's more playable on the 360.
If you're a PS3 owner I'd probably avoid this for the time being.
 

NSCTripleAgent

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Remember, you can and should adjust the input lag settings. If you're familiar with GGPO, it has intentiona 2 frame input lag by default. You can put it on zero and get no input lag, but you will get rollbacks if your connection hiccups while anything relevant is going on. I can't get it until payday *SALTY*, but the word is it's best played on one, and the 360 version is the way to go.
 

Domingo

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Yeah, I've played with the settings and it's still very hit or miss.
Sadly, I think the game finder is bad enough that even a lag free game would still be a mess.
The only easy way to find a one-on-one match is via ranked...and then you're one and done and back to searching again.
The only results you can see in non-ranked are the top 10...which are always rooms filled with 7-8 people.
If you finally narrow things down and hunt for a marathon match, you can't leave! Whoever finally exits the match first gets a "disconnect" on their profile seemingly no matter how long you've been playing.
The other 4 online SF games (Hyper, Remix, SF4, Super SF4) all have 100x better matchmaking.
Plus, the music playing over and over and over when you're hunting for matches is enough to make you poke your eyes out :p
 

NSCTripleAgent

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Yeah, I've played with the settings and it's still very hit or miss.
Sadly, I think the game finder is bad enough that even a lag free game would still be a mess.
The only easy way to find a one-on-one match is via ranked...and then you're one and done and back to searching again.
The only results you can see in non-ranked are the top 10...which are always rooms filled with 7-8 people.
If you finally narrow things down and hunt for a marathon match, you can't leave! Whoever finally exits the match first gets a "disconnect" on their profile seemingly no matter how long you've been playing.
The other 4 online SF games (Hyper, Remix, SF4, Super SF4) all have 100x better matchmaking.
Plus, the music playing over and over and over when you're hunting for matches is enough to make you poke your eyes out :p


Are you on PSN or XBL?
 

Domingo

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I'm on the PS3. My buddy with the Xbox version said the online play is much better on that version, but the matchmaking interface is pretty much the same...including that annoying song that you can't turn off.
 

Mozex

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The other 4 online SF games (Hyper, Remix, SF4, Super SF4) all have 100x better matchmaking.
Plus, the music playing over and over and over when you're hunting for matches is enough to make you poke your eyes out :p

Wow, and I thought SF4 had terrible matchmaking :( I guess I'll pass on this one - I'm tired of getting burned by Capcom.
 

Domingo

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I think Alpha 3 (or any of the spin-offs with more characters) would be a lot more online friendly than 3 is. The frame data isn't as tight, there are more options to choose from, and unlike 3 and 4 - supers/ultras are the end-all-be-all so latency doesn't force you to turtle every time someone has a super. Lots of normal attacks can beat them out, so you're a bit safer in opening up. The whole "custom combo" thing would also be nice for blowing through spaz attacks without insta-killing people, too.
To me, Alpha 3 is the 2nd best game in the series behind Super Turbo.
 

Mozex

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What are your thoughts on Capcom v Snk 2? I'm not a competitive player but the systems there seem very similar to Alpha 3. Plus I like the cast better.
 

Domingo

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I'm no competitive player either. The last time I seriously played an SF game was a campus Alpha 2 tournament when I was in college. That said, when I do play, I don't really like to lose...but I'd get smacked around by all of those EVO-level players.
I played the Capcom vs. SNK games a little bit, but they came out at an odd time when all of my local arcades were dying and I'd really moved on to Tekken Tag (still my favorite of that series). I don't think I ever gave #2 the attention it deserved, but I remember the games being a grab fest with all of the rolling around.
Honestly, I'd be really happy if they brought out pretty much any SF game with online play. I just think SF3 was an odd choice considering how precise it is and how split people are on the direction of the game.
 

Domingo

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sd11

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I think Alpha 3 (or any of the spin-offs with more characters) would be a lot more online friendly than 3 is. The frame data isn't as tight, there are more options to choose from, and unlike 3 and 4 - supers/ultras are the end-all-be-all so latency doesn't force you to turtle every time someone has a super. Lots of normal attacks can beat them out, so you're a bit safer in opening up. The whole "custom combo" thing would also be nice for blowing through spaz attacks without insta-killing people, too.
To me, Alpha 3 is the 2nd best game in the series behind Super Turbo.

But customs are the end all be all and nothing beats them out!

Outside of Guy in A ism and Sim, nobody was worth crap if they didn't have a good CC. And of those two only Sim was any good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUBGgiEY6cs

Good CC's do more damage than supers or ultras anyways.
 

Domingo

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There you go with the tournament-level stuff again :)
Of the people playing online on a regular basis the odds of running into a tournament-level player is about 1 in 500. I've probably run into less than 50 over the course of the entire run of online Street Fighter games and that's with probably 10,000+ matches. I like the odds of not running into that problem very much.
Disregarding best case scenario 50-80% damage CC's (which aren't quite as common as you make it sound - most of the massive ones for 2/3 of the case revolve around a corner), the game is far more online friendly that SF3 which is flat out broken when you can't precision parry with any lag at all.
You even know it yourself - online play has nothing to do with tournament players. It's typically casual to medium-high level play at best, and that's where Alpha 3 excels.
 

sd11

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There you go with the tournament-level stuff again :)
Of the people playing online on a regular basis the odds of running into a tournament-level player is about 1 in 500. I've probably run into less than 50 over the course of the entire run of online Street Fighter games and that's with probably 10,000+ matches. I like the odds of not running into that problem very much.
Disregarding best case scenario 50-80% damage CC's (which aren't quite as common as you make it sound - most of the massive ones for 2/3 of the case revolve around a corner), the game is far more online friendly that SF3 which is flat out broken when you can't precision parry with any lag at all.
You even know it yourself - online play has nothing to do with tournament players. It's typically casual to medium-high level play at best, and that's where Alpha 3 excels.

I don't consider those CC's tournament level at all. There wasn't any corner specific, crouch canceling infinites or anything over the top in those.

And yes I know online play is strictly for casual players, but then why worry about the parry other issues in SF3? Red parries, advanced kara's, and high level Yun stuff is the most affected by that and is all "tournament level play" you're not going to see that sort of stuff coming out of Joe Blow on his xbox.

On the other hand CC's aren't all that hard to do, you're bound to see those crop up. I haven't even played an A3 match where someone didn't pick V-ism in years and bust out a CC. You can learn them within the span of a few hours just banging away in training mode.

I believe you mentioned alpha2.... game of the CC's involving only 2 moves

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtKaCE9_KwY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9Y2FX7WGVc&feature=related

The point is that in the Alpha series you are most assuredly getting blown the fuck up faster than in the SF4 series, and there is not Ultra move to function as a comeback when your getting your ass kicked. You start with your meters full and don't gain much for getting your ass handed to you on a platter.

Better players will blow up lesser players far quicker.
 

Domingo

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Correct you won't see any high level stuff coming from random joes playing online, however SF3 was designed to have parries in usage (by everyone) and right now you simply can't use them. That makes simple mix ups like low instead of an overhead godlike. Even just spamming low attacks is overkill.
Alpha 2 is a totally different animal than 3. Everyone knows the "low attack into 2 special attacks" spam from that one. The whole cast had at least 1-2 40% damage combos in that one that could start off a low attack...and of course insta hit on any standing opponent. I'd never ask for that one or Alpha 1's 40-hit chain combos online. They were both broken and there's nothing online would change about that.
CC's in 3 are more offensive in nature, and the majority of them do closer to 25-30% damage by attacking instead of Alpha 2 where you spend the whole match baiting someone into standing up within sweep range and blasting them for 50-80% instantly.
As far as better players beating lesser ones - that's exactly how it should work.
I'm not asking for an even playing field, but one in which the game's mechanics aren't broken or slanted. SF3 has the parries crippled, so being a pitbull is the end all be all. Alpha 3 offers different options. That X-ism Zangief might get lucky and nail a super, but he'd be much smarter to V-ism through through attacks instead...but there's a lot less room for error in doing so. You miss one juggle hit and your V-ism might be wasted.
(Edit -screwed up my 'isms')
Sure, someone like Alex Valle isn't going to miss that hit...but what are the odds of running into him or someone like him?
There's a whole generation of random SF players that grew up with those games and are more than capable of playing pretty well that will never enter EVO and never master Daigo's Chun Li parry, but still do absolutely fine against all but uber high level players. That's what the online market tends to be. Just count the number of PS3 players with names like JoeBlow81 or Ziggy77. Those are the people buying those games and keeping the online scene going, not just the 1000 or so people at EVO and likely not the same folks playing Call of Duty 14.
 
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sd11

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My gripe with what you said is more this....

and unlike 3 and 4 - supers/ultras are the end-all-be-all so latency doesn't force you to turtle every time someone has a super.

Which is really head scratching here. Since Supers in A2 and A3 are stupidly easy to combo into off just about everything and carry a massive amount of invulnerability. They also deal a ton more damage on average. The best suppers in 3, outside of Yun or Makato, do not deal all that much damage and are more picked because of the utility of the bar (ie Ken being able to stock 3 of them even though they do diddly dick for damage).

So right off the bat, the stock supers are easier to combo into, deal more damage, and come with more invulnerability than anything in 3s or 4 baring Yun in 3/4 and Makoto in 3. And Yun's more advanced stuff falls into the lines of tournament types.

And that's leaving custom combo's outside of the issue which rapidly turns the game into "you press a button and I make you go splat"

Lots of normal attacks can beat them out, so you're a bit safer in opening up.

This is really inaccurate. The prolonged Ultra Freeze in SF4 makes all the Ultras 100% avoidable outside of combo's or punishers, the supers don't have much invulnerability at all. Contrast this to A3 where the supers have an insane amount of invulnerability and can be used to counter pretty much anything. There is also the fun thing about being able to mash a custom combo and walk straight through an attack and then combo the snot out of something "you pressed jab, sorry walking through that shit, give me 40% of your health bar". Oddly enough in A3 the only way to "counter" a custom combo is by blowing your own custom combo and hoping your invulnerability lasts longer than theirs.

It's far less safe.

The whole "custom combo" thing would also be nice for blowing through spaz attacks without insta-killing people, too.

So you obviously realize that opening up is a bad thing since a CC destroys everything that isn't block. And define insta kill? CC's regularly do more damage than anything that exists in 4. A CC is pretty much the worst thing you can get hit with outside of an infinite.


I'd like the alpha's as well. The thing is it's a far more super centric game prone to near insta kills and abuse of power moves than any of the series. And I've left out the fun of guard crush and the issue with the series having a fair amount of unblockables.
 

NSCTripleAgent

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Been playing 3SO. Besides the matchmaking issues, I love it. Fun, well done game that plays well online. I have input delay at 0, so any less than good connection gets me rollbacks, but my combos from muscle memory work, and my parry timing is coming back. Having a blast handing out the beats.
 

Domingo

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One of the most convenient things about Alpha 3 is the fact that you can’t super or CC at the same time, though. It’s an either/or situation. The supers certainly lack the invulnerability from SF4’s ultras. For instance If I poke with anything except a jab in SF4 and if someone activates their ultra – I’m going to get lit up and there’s about a 99.9% chance they will be completely invulnerable and hit me with every possible hit. Whereas in Alpha 3, there’s a chance I can flat out beat their super, take only a few hits, or exchange with it. You have to combo into the supers in that game, which I appreciate. I’d far rather get lit up with a giant combo attack than some almighty defensive/invulnerable assault from SF4. It’s the most annoying thing about the game. You’re rewarded for getting hit with a move that makes you invincible and damaging. Any kind of “meaty” attack game is completely gone in SF4 and footsies tend to consist of jabs and shorts in most cases. With SFA3, it can be super-heavy, but I’d say the non-level 3 supers are closer to EX style moves.

CC’s are strong, no doubt – but there’s a margin for error, and it’s not like you have one stocked and locked for all 3 rounds (or worse, get a new one for taking damage). They can punish a jab, but you have to be pretty close to do that. Most of the instances I recall seeing them become a complete nuisance were as a jump in to blow through the counter attack attempt…and were quickly followed by a barrage of top downs to kill off any potential blocks. A little dirty, but I tend to favor an offensive approach compared with the defensive nature of SF4. Guard crushing fits the bill, too. I’d rather see players get annihilated with frame traps, CC’s, and guard breaks than an elongated war of ½ screen safe attacks followed by an eventual ultra in SF4. I even prefer the throw-happy SF3 to that. I always favor an offensive approach, and the fact that you start off with the super meter loaded favors that. It doesn’t favor someone for taking damage and it doesn’t give the person who is going lots of moves an additional overkill move the other player doesn’t have.

With the online SF3, I have noticed an improvement in the quality of the online matches lately. Matchmaking still sucks, but at least the matches are less laggy. I can’t seem to ever get a green NAT on the PS3 in spite of going through all of the normal processes and having both my 360 and PS3 saying I’m “open.” My buddy with the 360 has the same issue. His PS3 always gives him a yellow NAT but the 360’s green every time.
 
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