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Sennheiser HD650 vs. AKG K712 Pro
- Thread starter isai95
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Do you have an amp already, or do you have any plans to purchase one?
What will you be using to play your music? PC sound card, phone, ipod, external DAC?
The AKG 712 Pro's will be easier to drive than the HD 650/HD 600. If you're considering portable use, the 712 Pro's might manage just fine on just your phone/ipod's built-in output. The HD 600/HD 650's will be pretty lame without an amp.
Which brings up my next point, I would consider the HD 600's a more direct competitor to the 712 Pro's due to their more neutral sound compared to the HD 650's.
Which is not the same as saying the HD 600's are better than the HD 650's, just different. A bit more analytical, better for a mastering a recording than the HD 650's.
The HD 650's are great for enjoying recordings, and they're better for that than any other headphone I've tried. Compared to the 712 Pro's, they're going to have gentler highs and more mid/mid-bass.
What will you be using to play your music? PC sound card, phone, ipod, external DAC?
The AKG 712 Pro's will be easier to drive than the HD 650/HD 600. If you're considering portable use, the 712 Pro's might manage just fine on just your phone/ipod's built-in output. The HD 600/HD 650's will be pretty lame without an amp.
Which brings up my next point, I would consider the HD 600's a more direct competitor to the 712 Pro's due to their more neutral sound compared to the HD 650's.
Which is not the same as saying the HD 600's are better than the HD 650's, just different. A bit more analytical, better for a mastering a recording than the HD 650's.
The HD 650's are great for enjoying recordings, and they're better for that than any other headphone I've tried. Compared to the 712 Pro's, they're going to have gentler highs and more mid/mid-bass.
Yes, I do have the PA2V2 portable battery amp and the Fiio E12. Also I'm using the Auzentech Prelude Sound card, soon I'll get the Asus Xonar Essence STX.
PC sound card, Galaxy Note 3 & Turntable.
I'll be using them portable & desktop/Home 2 channel Stereo.
Mmmm, Good to know this observation of yours.
Well, I want them to listening to very well recorded Jazz music specifically @ 96khz/24-Bit recordings.
Would you say that the K712 are more like the Grado SR325i signature in the bright side?
Are they in between the HD650 and the Grado SR325i?
Both are hard to drive. The AKG will just sound a lot less congested. Really, neither are ideal to use with portable gear.
AKG is nothing like grado in any sense. Grado almost always has a very small soundstage compared to akg. Grado is in your face sound wheras akg and sennheiser are laid back, spacious sounding.
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I can't answer that for you, I don't own the 712's and when listening to them I never tested them on portable sources (the O2 powering them didn't seem to be breaking a sweat, but it never does).
I can however assure you that the HD 6x0 series sound flat and lifeless straight out of a Note 2, Galaxy S3/S4, Surface 1/2/3, Nexus 7...
Edit
/Bias on:
The HD 650's will be awesome for jazz, just go for it! Also get a decent desktop Amp, can't beat power from the wall. I've been impressed with the new monoprice 11567 Amp+DAC for under $100.
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http://www.head-fi.org/t/658200/sennheiser-hd650-vs-akg-k702-65th-or-hifiman-he500
The 702 65th anniversary edition in question in this thread is the precursor to the 712's, you might find some useful information...then again, it's head-fi, so you might just find pointless bickering about ever more expensive alternatives.
The 702 65th anniversary edition in question in this thread is the precursor to the 712's, you might find some useful information...then again, it's head-fi, so you might just find pointless bickering about ever more expensive alternatives.
Thanks for the link. I just read it and really what these people are listening is more to the amplifier. Obviously the better the amp the better the sound regardless of headphone and the headphone will react to the load and quality of the amp. Just like with regular speakers. A headphone requiring 1 watt or more to drive it may sound wonderful but also it has big conts like heavy weight and un-comfort like the HE-500 that is said to sound much better than the HD650 and AKG K701/702. Most headphone amps have a maximum output of like 250 milliwatts which is 1/4 of what the HE-500requires, also, requires lots of current and they are totally different technologies. It's like comparing a bicycle to a car.
I got you. Even at low volume levels both appear to require an expensive amp to sound good. I have to look somewhere else for portable. What it's out there for a good portable setup. What do you have? I love to walk a long the beach, parks, walking the dogs, etc. listening to a nice portable headphone.
I cannot stand Grado's brightness. I can listen for 20 min and I get really stressed ears. I had the SR325i and I gave them to my brother.
The HD600/650 is neutral and the K712 is balanced. (Think of it as neutral with bass boost)
Neutral headphones (and headphones targeting the diffuse field curve in general ) are ideally left for studio use and I prefer a more balanced sound for personal use. Over my ownership of several previous neutral headphones I've always found them lacking in bass and not really that enjoyable for music listening.
That's my personal take on it anyways and if you look around you'll find conflicting opinions obviously, and one of them being that the hd600 is generally referred to as the king of the $500 price point. Here's a popular article many hd600 owners like to point out:
http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/very-important-sennheiser-hd-580-hd-600-and-hd-650-page-3
The best headphone is the one that suits your sound signature preference.
Neutral headphones (and headphones targeting the diffuse field curve in general ) are ideally left for studio use and I prefer a more balanced sound for personal use. Over my ownership of several previous neutral headphones I've always found them lacking in bass and not really that enjoyable for music listening.
That's my personal take on it anyways and if you look around you'll find conflicting opinions obviously, and one of them being that the hd600 is generally referred to as the king of the $500 price point. Here's a popular article many hd600 owners like to point out:
http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/very-important-sennheiser-hd-580-hd-600-and-hd-650-page-3
The best headphone is the one that suits your sound signature preference.
i own both. i loved my k701. the slightly boost in the bass of the k712 ruined the soundsignature of the k701, the outstanding upper mids. today i love my hd 650 much more, wich are also not neutral. laid back, warm and dark sounding but really nice detail. in a few days ill get the hd 600 to compare.
so in my opinion k701/k702 or sennheiser hd 600/650. which are totally different headphones (thinner, airy, best upper mids, huge soundstage vs. more body, dark, laid back, more comfortable, listening for hours, comes closest to real life)
so in my opinion k701/k702 or sennheiser hd 600/650. which are totally different headphones (thinner, airy, best upper mids, huge soundstage vs. more body, dark, laid back, more comfortable, listening for hours, comes closest to real life)
Godmachine
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Going to continue to beat my drum and recommend the HD650's even over the HD600's. Neutrality has become so built into the audiophile community that I think it starts to miss the point of "fun" or "different" sounding headphones (I don't use other terms because they are nonsensical bullshit "gotcha" terminology to attribute input that is different for each individual that listens).
When people step up to higher end cans and really invest they often find the sound quality to lose its ability to "surprise" you and that's because its so bent towards neutrality that the edge that sometimes would appear under certain conditions has been grounded away for a very flat and constant tonality.
What you want are cans that are not only excellent at actually reproducing a full range but also mimic life like sound so well that your brain can't always tell the difference. Finding that is seriously a challenge. Everyone hears differently , different tonal ranges , different soundstaging and so on. We all have different sized heads and ear canals and some of us have excellent hearing while others have less than stellar for various reasons.
The point is you want cans that aren't dead neutral. More often then not you want something that has a bit of a flirting range and the ability to surprise you. I own cans up to the HD800 and down to the cheapest ear buds and frankly my favorite headphones of all time? The HD650.
For the money they really are worth their very weight. They are very flexible , more so then they deserve to be for the price. They always manage to surprise me even against much more expensive cans. I've had extensive time with the HD600's and while they are cheaper I believe they have part of that "fun" range removed. They are more neutral but I never actually was tricked into believing the sound they were producing was "real".
So take that as you will but I don't think I've talked to many folks who've said "Wow the HD650's sound like shit."
When people step up to higher end cans and really invest they often find the sound quality to lose its ability to "surprise" you and that's because its so bent towards neutrality that the edge that sometimes would appear under certain conditions has been grounded away for a very flat and constant tonality.
What you want are cans that are not only excellent at actually reproducing a full range but also mimic life like sound so well that your brain can't always tell the difference. Finding that is seriously a challenge. Everyone hears differently , different tonal ranges , different soundstaging and so on. We all have different sized heads and ear canals and some of us have excellent hearing while others have less than stellar for various reasons.
The point is you want cans that aren't dead neutral. More often then not you want something that has a bit of a flirting range and the ability to surprise you. I own cans up to the HD800 and down to the cheapest ear buds and frankly my favorite headphones of all time? The HD650.
For the money they really are worth their very weight. They are very flexible , more so then they deserve to be for the price. They always manage to surprise me even against much more expensive cans. I've had extensive time with the HD600's and while they are cheaper I believe they have part of that "fun" range removed. They are more neutral but I never actually was tricked into believing the sound they were producing was "real".
So take that as you will but I don't think I've talked to many folks who've said "Wow the HD650's sound like shit."
Matthew Kane
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The HD650's sound like shit. 
None of the modern AKG are hard to drive, K712 is not hard to drive period. K701/702 are not hard to drive period. They scale some but not hard to drive. HD650's are also not hard to drive, people that say that have limited experience and in most cases power the headphones off shit amplifiers that don't counter balance the sound signature.
They don't have a wonky impedance range hungry for MOAR power like the Tesla drivers in the Beyer's (T1 for one) or the HD800's.
HD650 vs 712 is kind of polarising because the HD650 is a very laid back headphone, older HD650's prior to 2007 with the black felt are more darker sounding then the quiet updates Sennheiser did to the HD580/600 and 650 after 2007. Still not LCD territory laid back though.
Now the AKG on the other hand is a 701 with bit more bass and little less bright.
You can run the HD650 off portables, well design portables with the power to feed the high Z 300ohm impedance, HD650 off the SR-71 is pretty amazing and bests some of the $2k amp pairings I've tried and owned. HD650 off Mjonir is pretty amazing sounding as is off Bottleheads OTL tube amp the Crack even without the Speedball upgrade. If you can DIY, HD650 + b22 is hard to beat.
HD580/HD600 is more neutral then the 650 but both have some similarities. The HD650's scale well but I don't think I've come across a Sennheiser that doesn't scale well.
I use to like the 650's with classical and orchestra based music, till I got the HD600's and HD800's. The AKG K712 is ok sounding with most genres but sound nice with classical as well. I don't listen to jazz though.
I've owned/own the above but I'm Stax.
None of the modern AKG are hard to drive, K712 is not hard to drive period. K701/702 are not hard to drive period. They scale some but not hard to drive. HD650's are also not hard to drive, people that say that have limited experience and in most cases power the headphones off shit amplifiers that don't counter balance the sound signature.
They don't have a wonky impedance range hungry for MOAR power like the Tesla drivers in the Beyer's (T1 for one) or the HD800's.
HD650 vs 712 is kind of polarising because the HD650 is a very laid back headphone, older HD650's prior to 2007 with the black felt are more darker sounding then the quiet updates Sennheiser did to the HD580/600 and 650 after 2007. Still not LCD territory laid back though.
Now the AKG on the other hand is a 701 with bit more bass and little less bright.
You can run the HD650 off portables, well design portables with the power to feed the high Z 300ohm impedance, HD650 off the SR-71 is pretty amazing and bests some of the $2k amp pairings I've tried and owned. HD650 off Mjonir is pretty amazing sounding as is off Bottleheads OTL tube amp the Crack even without the Speedball upgrade. If you can DIY, HD650 + b22 is hard to beat.
HD580/HD600 is more neutral then the 650 but both have some similarities. The HD650's scale well but I don't think I've come across a Sennheiser that doesn't scale well.
I use to like the 650's with classical and orchestra based music, till I got the HD600's and HD800's. The AKG K712 is ok sounding with most genres but sound nice with classical as well. I don't listen to jazz though.
I've owned/own the above but I'm Stax.