Seiki SE50UY04 3840x2160 50" TV ($1300)

geok1ng

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It would essentially be like side-by-side PIP, displaying two inputs simultaneously. The hardware might not have the capability of being able to accept two simultaneous streams simultaneously.

If that doesn't work, there's a Plan B. This is a perfect hacking opportunity: I bet someone can do it with $300 of add-on chips (Xilinix FPGA's, microcontrollers, HDMI 1.4 receiver chips) -- this is a perfect market for an add-on mod. Mark it up by $400 and sell the board for $700, then you've got 3840x2160 at 60Hz for $2000 total. Still a steal compared to other competition costing $5000. (Scribby? Hypermatrix?) Clearly, the panel is capable of being refreshed 120 times a second, so there's already enough panel bandwidth and the board/HDMI is simply the limiting factor.

That means, theoretically, the panel could do 3840x2160 at 120Hz using quadruple inputs, given the right custom motherboard (probably still costs under $1000)!

As we can see, the thread was hijacked on page 1 some 3 years+8 months ago :rolleyes: Cirthix is definitively posting on the relevant thread [H]ere.
 

cirthix

Limp Gawd
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This is the image that everyone has been waiting for. Flawless 4k120 :)

The pic is on the 28", works on the 39" too
4K120_perfect.jpg


Remaining to-do items:

Test freesync. The TCON supports it by design, but there may be some hoops to jump through to get the DP boards working with it.
Add the on-chip ADC logic for supporting the panel selection jumper. Right now, changing panels uses either a jtag debug tool or defaults to a compile-time constant.
Fix the autodetection for automatic left/right half merging (the 5k monitors do this). Automatic merging with ~3line mismatch capability should give good-enough compatibility for users.
Buy a screen calibration tool to generate an accurate gamma voltage profile. The image here looks dark because of camera settings. In person, it looks pretty good, though some fine-tuning might improve things further.
Clean up a few timing violations.
Add some extra safety logic against invalid modes.
Implement a user-accessible way of updating firmware. Not sure if this will be necessary though. Ideally, users shouldn't have to touch the firmware.

These to-do items are all pretty minor and the hardware designs are essentially ready to send to production. They can be fixed while waiting for fabrication.

At this point, I'll have to talk to Kyle to see how sales might be arranged here. Previously, he was cool with my 1080p240 displays, but I don't want to step on any toes. Any further posts will probably be in a new thread.
 
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Panel

Limp Gawd
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Test freesync. The TCON supports it by design, but there may be some hoops to jump through to get the DP boards working with it
Buy a screen calibration tool to generate an accurate gamma voltage profile. The image here looks dark because of camera settings. In person, it looks pretty good, though some fine-tuning might improve things further
If you can get Freesync running AND professionally calibrate this thing for me, I can guarantee that I will buy at least 3 of these bad boys upon release. Please make it work. ;)

Beyond that, please alert us to whichever new thread you make, and when (hopefully soon!)
 

cirthix

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4k120 autodetection as a tiled display works now. Plug it in and drivers automatically present a single logical display :)

Very much like the current crop of 5k displays.
 

linuxdude9

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4k120 autodetection as a tiled display works now. Plug it in and drivers automatically present a single logical display :)

Very much like the current crop of 5k displays.

Sweet! Any chance FreeSync will work with it as a tiled display?
 
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cirthix

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Haven't tested it yet. My AMD test card only has one dp port, need to pick up another one.

I have swapped over to the 28" 4k120 display being my primary monitor.
 
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Panel

Limp Gawd
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Haven't tested it yet. My AMD test card only has one dp port, need to pick up another one.

I have swapped over to the 28" 4k120 display being my primary monitor.
Considering what's left to be done, do you have a time estimate as to how long it will be until these are ready to sell? Or is it still too far off for that?
 

cirthix

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Considering what's left to be done, do you have a time estimate as to how long it will be until these are ready to sell? Or is it still too far off for that?

The hardware designs could be sent for manufacturing today. I'm waiting on permission to post a preorders thread here.

Freesync support doesn't change the hardware, but there is some qualification that needs to be done, including sending AMD a couple of units. This part might take a while. The solution here is to include a little usb to serial converter that can be used to update the firmware on the input boards when it is ready.
 

geok1ng

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Freesync qualification could be a game changer for AMD if it is complete at Vega launch ( promised for Q2 2017). Time to buy some AMD stock. 4k 120Hz and Freesync will increase sales of Vega GPUs.
 

Panel

Limp Gawd
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Freesync qualification could be a game changer for AMD if it is complete at Vega launch ( promised for Q2 2017). Time to buy some AMD stock. 4k 120Hz and Freesync will increase sales of Vega GPUs.
Will he be able to produce that many units though? I thought this was going to be a small run. Of course, if it's good, there's no reason to stick to that.

Now, I don't really want to read a 50 page long thread, so can someone tell me a bit about these display's apart from the modifications? I mean to ask how it looks, how it compares to other screens that people are using as large form factor 4K monitors these days. For example, the Samsung 40" KU6300. That's quite common these days. How does the Seiki stack up to it? After all, 120Hz or no 120Hz, if I buy 3 4K screens for desktop use, I'm going to want them to last a considerable amount of time. If the screen's don't look too good to start with, I may find myself not enjoying the setup much at all. Any help would be greatly appreciated as always!
 

raildex1

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Will he be able to produce that many units though? I thought this was going to be a small run. Of course, if it's good, there's no reason to stick to that.

Now, I don't really want to read a 50 page long thread, so can someone tell me a bit about these display's apart from the modifications? I mean to ask how it looks, how it compares to other screens that people are using as large form factor 4K monitors these days. For example, the Samsung 40" KU6300. That's quite common these days. How does the Seiki stack up to it? After all, 120Hz or no 120Hz, if I buy 3 4K screens for desktop use, I'm going to want them to last a considerable amount of time. If the screen's don't look too good to start with, I may find myself not enjoying the setup much at all. Any help would be greatly appreciated as always!

120hz actual refresh rate (not interpolated) will beat all mainstream TVs out there.

Hardware calibrated results with a Spyder4Pro are here (scroll down on the site to the graphs) - https://photo.stackexchange.com/que...der4pro-calibration-of-seiki-monitor-look-odd

Of course if using something like Calman RGB results would be better maybe.

If cirthix is doing a low run initially he might be able to pre-calibrate them all which would actually end up superior to just buying 3x samsungs without calibration.

There's also no added latency by cirthix's posts - which means it's perfect for gaming. The Samsung has about 20ms input lag, and 40ms at 4:4:4.

I THINK the 39" doesn't have PWM which the Samsung has.

Assuming they sell well who knows what cirthix could do next... I'm guessing maybe blur reduction, DP 1.3+ (If he doesn't offer it immediately at launch).

He definitely would be able to do some R&D if he wishes.
 
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geok1ng

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i can not say anything about the 28". The 39" panel has 100% sRGB coverage. My Tv has an engineer menu that allows for individual calibration of each color channel by gain and offset. hence as long as i had patience to pixelfck the color parameters, i could achieve the color accuracy of monitors that cost north of $1500.
what Cirthix is planning is a completely new control board with voltages levels calibrated with a professional tool. so the final result for users will depend on how similar your panels LEDs are to those on Cirthix's panels. Out of factory LEDs behave quite homogeneously, but they age.

The way i read the previous posts, Cirthix will sell the board for users install in panels they already own, i could not find any mention of selling complete monitors- demand could change Cirthix plans. In his place i would order not-completed monitors, install the boards and flash the firmware locally to avoid chinese copycats- without the firmware, even the FPGA factory can not copycat Cirthix. And POTUS is asking companies to assembly products in America.

Anyway, the 39" is a VA panel, so horizontal gamma shift will make it unsuitable for high end photo editing if the image is gonna be printed. for web authoring in sRGB it is about 1%~ shy of perfection incarnate( the state of art being a calibrated Philips 40"- a VA panel with higher contrast and less gamma shift).

The old 39" TV received a lot of unfair reviews because the panel has BGR pixel alignment - text looked fuzzy without changing the cleartype settings to BGR, which not a single OSX user at the time knew how to do... and OSX users are a majority of those that bother to review color accuracy:rolleyes:

About "produce that many units" : next E3 there will be 1 (and only one) monitor on sale with 4k120hz + Freesync. High end monitors are a low quantity/high margin product anyway.
 

Panel

Limp Gawd
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I THINK the 39" doesn't have PWM which the Samsung has. There's also no added latency by cirthix's posts - which means it's perfect for gaming.
i can not say anything about the 28". The 39" panel has 100% sRGB coverage. My Tv has an engineer menu that allows for individual calibration of each color channel by gain and offset. hence as long as i had patience to pixelfck the color parameters, i could achieve the color accuracy of monitors that cost north of $1500. ... Anyway, the 39" is a VA panel
These are both great things to hear! It seems that the display itself is a solid product. If I may just ask, what other sizes are there? I thin 28", 39", 42", and 50"? Are the others (particularly the 42") also VA? I'd prefer to stick to it instead of IPS if possible.

The way i read the previous posts, Cirthix will sell the board for users install in panels they already own, i could not find any mention of selling complete monitors- demand could change Cirthix plans.
I noticed this too, but was hoping that he'd be willing to sell full fledged monitors too. It'd be especially helpful for me, as I want to run a multi-monitor setup with these. I'm hoping that Cirthix will be willing to de-bexel the units for me, albeit at an additional sot. Of course, that's not a possibility if he only sells the controllers.

On a final note, does anyone know how many of these I'd would be able to run at once? I'd obviously want AMD (freesync). Whether or not I'm doing crossfire (it forces you to only use the ports of one card), I'll likely be limited to 6 Displayports. BAsed on my logic, this means I'll be able to run 3 of these at once, correct? Or is i possible to do more if I do Displayport 1.4 and use some sort of 1 to 2 dongle?
 

geok1ng

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By time DP 1.4 hubs become available, you will be running triple 5k monitors if DP 1.3 market adoption is any hint.
about sizes: the board is right now compatible with 28 and 39" 4k panels from innolux. some of which are out of production but can be found as used TVs on ebay or even as new TVs on chinese sites. there is one 42" panel still in production, but it was not tested and validated with the board. a 15 minutes youtube video showing how to install the board should be good enough for most [H]ere.

sourcing and assembling naked panels would cost MUCH more than getting a TV and swapping boards.

having a working TV is the fastest way to get 4k 120Hz: just swap the boards. no need to worry about panel power supply or led driver board.
 

Panel

Limp Gawd
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By time DP 1.4 hubs become available, you will be running triple 5k monitors if DP 1.3 market adoption is any hint.
But what does this actually mean? I'm restricted to 3 displays then? Six displayports divided by two? (It's no problem, but I want to be sure I have this straight).
there is one 42" panel still in production, but it was not tested and validated with the board
Seeing as how this is a completely custom project, I'm not too sure that I'd be willing to dabble in the waters of anything untested. Thanks for warning me; I'll be sticking to 39". The 112 ppi doesn't seem too bad, anyways.
the board is right now compatible with 28 and 39" 4k panels from innolux. some of which are out of production but can be found as used TVs on ebay or even as new TVs on chinese sites. a 15 minutes youtube video showing how to install the board should be good enough for most [H]ere. sourcing and assembling naked panels would cost MUCH more than getting a TV and swapping boards.
I get what you're saying. It would be much cheaper for me to just buy my own TVs, and then install the new controller boards in all 3. I feel you, but there are 2 problems:
1. I REALLY wanted to have these things calibrated, but I'm not really too keen on purchasing an expensive tool. I was really hoping it could be done beforehand.
2. I want to run a triple setup, and I believe the bezels on these things are huge. I was quite certain it would be quite an additional charge, but I was hoping Cirthix would be willing to debezel the screens beforehand.

I'm not too sure how hard it would be to accomplish the aforementioned things on my own. If it's not too costly and challenging, I'd be more than happy to go the standard route and just buy the controllers only.
 

geok1ng

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But what does this actually mean? I'm restricted to 3 displays then? Six displayports divided by two? (It's no problem, but I want to be sure I have this straight)
I meant that when we have DP 1.4 hubs on sale there will be 5k 120Hz monitors to run, since 4k 120Hz are coming out without any DP 1.3 on the horizon .

The 112 ppi doesn't seem too bad, anyways.
Triple monitor will required some investment in monitors arms, or an adjustable table and ergonomic chair. 39" is already a neck pain hazard. going triple and still sitting in a distance where 112PPI is good enough sounds quite tricky. it is not impossible that 42" support comes later with a firmware upgrade.

I was really hoping it could be done beforehand.
There will be a calibration profile for 28" and 39" inside the firmware.

the bezels on these things are huge
total Tv length: ~900mm bezels: 18mm. debezelling will not shave all of these 18mm, as some panel frame always remains. and shipping panels without bezels is for those with balls of steel or custom cutted packages.

nothing will be fast, cheap and good at the same time:

you want a fast panel with custom calibration, it will not be cheap.
you want a cheap panel with custom calibration, it will not be fast.
you want a fast and cheap panel, it will have a generic calibration.

Scot Adams teach me to look for business where i sell my ideas and run away from business where i sell my time.
I would rather have Cirthix projecting the next boards and firmwares than debezelling and custom calibrating used TVs. i have no idea how much an work-hour of an engineer with Cirthix's skill costs, but a costumer would extract more value from investing $100 on a Spyder5express (and downloading the free Argyll and DispcalGUI calibration bundle)
 
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cirthix

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After a lot more testing, I've concluded that freesync just will not work with my existing DP boards.

There is also a signal integrity problem that causes instability with some AMD GPUs (it works after adjusting some amd development-only DP settings), but adding a redriver to the board would fix that issue.

At this point, the TCON is totally done and I am looking for alternative solutions to the front-end. Another option would be to swap to a higher end fpga that has high speed transcievers and connect dp directly into it (after a redriver). This would add months and a lot of work.
 

geok1ng

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are you saying that you have a working 4k 120hz board that works with some VGA cards?
define "some amd gpus" . for 4k 120hz AMD has at most 3 gpus: Fury X, Fury and 480.
 

cirthix

Limp Gawd
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Got the calibrator today. Anything glaringly wrong?

This is on the 28", will do the 39" tomorrow.

Test run at 4k120 8bpc.




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cirthix

Limp Gawd
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Aug 30, 2006
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223
Yeah, I get that, but designing a product is only half of the work. There is a lot of testing to do between having a "done enough to start testing" design and a product ready for sale.

Would you be happy if I sold it a month ago and people had compatibility problems with the displayport interface (as in, no radeon support)? Because I only got that resolved this morning with a combination of hardware and firmware changes.

On the bright side, the displayport boards now seem good-to-go. I will put in some more time to try to get freesync working on them. If I can't get it working in a reasonable timeframe, I will offer this kit as a three-board setup without freesync. Two DP boards and the tcon. If I can get it working, I will integrate it all into one board. Either way, this project is nearing the end.
 

geok1ng

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Would you be happy

What you make me happy:

--Your [H]ard work on this project helping you pay your bills
-AMD making Vega a card suitable for 4k 120Hz

If my crystal ball is right: your project will be ready to market before Vega, which is stillborn after 1080 Ti launch.
Most gamers would rather get SLI 1080ti than wait for Vega on the slim hope that Vega can drive 4k 120hz to make Freesync a worthwhile feature.
the upgrade fever is in a year high these last couple of weeks. , an 8c16t CPU for $329 and a Titan-like VGA for $700. Freesync is not something those buyers would value.

I will gladly wait for Vega before changing VGAs, because either Vega will be cheaper than 1080ti or will make NVIDIA lower the price of 1080ti. This strategy gives me 2 ways to win and no way to lose- just make sure that there will be a high refresh rate 4k display with Freesync by that time. :p
 

Lender

Limp Gawd
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Messages
183
Congratulations on the development cirthix. Love to see someone [H]ard at work to push technology forward. I am very excited to see (in person) the final results of your ambitious activities. ;)
 

Lender

Limp Gawd
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On the bright side, the displayport boards now seem good-to-go. I will put in some more time to try to get freesync working on them. If I can't get it working in a reasonable timeframe, I will offer this kit as a three-board setup without freesync. Two DP boards and the tcon. If I can get it working, I will integrate it all into one board. Either way, this project is nearing the end.

I have two questions;
  • Should I buy a 39" Seiki sometime soon, for example, when I find a good price, since you are close or would it be better to wait until the project is closer to completion (4K30hz is unusable for me so it would sit until I received your kit)? and,
  • will this be 4K120hz 4:4:4 8bit? (Didn't see any mention of chroma).

Thank you in advance for your assistance.
 

geok1ng

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Should I buy a 39" Seiki sometime soon, for example, when I find a good price, since you are close or would it be better to wait until the project is closer to completion (4K30hz is unusable for me so it would sit until I received your kit)? and,

Once again: the board is targeted towards the listed AU panels, without direct mention of any TV brand. Such panels are available in other products, some even capable of 4k 60hz. do your search before any purchasing decision. also, wait for boards orders before purchasing a panel. No of us can held responsible for your buying decisions.

  • will this be 4K120hz 4:4:4 8bit? (Didn't see any mention of chroma).

Board uses sRGB, no YCbCr mambojambo- just like the old Seiki. also it will retain 10b capabilityy
 

Lender

Limp Gawd
Joined
May 30, 2006
Messages
183
Once again: the board is targeted towards the listed AU panels, without direct mention of any TV brand. Such panels are available in other products, some even capable of 4k 60hz. do your search before any purchasing decision. also, wait for boards orders before purchasing a panel. No of us can held responsible for your buying decisions.

Okay, well I'm sorry I don't know all the brands and model numbers of the TV's with the AU panel. I do also understand that it is the panel we are after here to make this work and that panel may be in some other TV's. I can also tell you the listings on Amazon or most other retailers don't list the exact panel manufacturer so I'm not sure how else I could gather that information. Currently I have not found a comprehensive list anywhere. Maybe since you are quite knowledgeable on the subject you could link me to the list or possibly make one?

So far the only TV I found listed in this thread over its last 10 pages or so was the Seiki as having that AU panel in the 39" version.

Finally, the only 39" listing available for purchase on Amazon or Newegg IS the Seiki, and none at all currently on eBay. This is why I was wondering if I should purchase one now rather than wait for board to be released and be unable to find a compatible TV for modification. Does this idea some how seem unreasonable to you as your post seems to imply?

PS: I'm also not trying to hold you or anyone else responsible for my buying decisions obviously but rather trying to secure my ability to utilize this fabulous product when available... your comment seems quite snarky Mr. geok1ng.
 

geok1ng

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i am sorry for the snarky part.

really sorry.
canadian like sorry.
i mean it.

it is quite trick indeed to navigate the chinese eletronics parts web locatings Tvs using these panels. i will try to give you a few examples of how to locate them.

google M280DGJ-L30

among panel data sites you will find one search result that can helkp you, from viewsonic

http://www.viewsonic.com/parts/e-00012104.html
Compatible With: 021102800171, M280DGJ-L30 C1, VX2880ML, VX2880ML-CN

sounds promising!

google ViewSonic VX2880ml:

https://www.amazon.com/ViewSonic-VX2880ml-28-Inch-Monitor-3840x2160/dp/B00LJVMOEY
http://www.techradar.com/reviews/pc...rs/monitors/viewsonic-vx2880ml-1272973/review

Sucess! I just found a 28" display, on sale on North America, that uses one of the panels !
I am not being snarky, i was not aware of such product until i started this post. and i am glad i found it, the possibilities!!

Now i will try to find the 42"
V420DK1-KS1

this one is quite trick. no product listed on first page of google results.

lets try "V420DK"
much better, it is the panel used on some hisense TVs. now time to sharpen my chinese reading skill and find a link of a complete TV.

the pannel number appers on soem board listings, like this one:

http://nxtmarket.info/item/544486641203

...42e5100. i wonder what that is...
dead end, but there is another part number linked to this panel.
42e51ua. google it,
and it is a hisense Tv ( and a TCL tv as well)
the hisense uses this tcon:
http://www.buytome.com/goods/item/detail/id/546500825947

pay close attention to the tcon part number: V500DK2-CKS2. it might be usefuk later.

the hisense can be found here:
http://item.yhd.com/item/47356976

Buying a tv from china seems trick. lets try to find the tcon:V500DK2-CKS2

oops: it is used on many TVs from Vizio and Hisense on sale on amaqzon.

http://www.ebay.com/p/VIZIO-P502ui-b1e-T-con-Control-Board-V500dk2-cks2-A1/1737905484

i am curios about the seiki SE42UM:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Seiki-SE42U...8172830&pid=100011&rk=1&rkt=4&sd=152366235125

Thankfully it has a users thread in english:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1563005/seiki-se42um-thread

Now please continue my work and discover if there is indeed a TV on sale in north america with the V420DK* panel.








 

geok1ng

2[H]4U
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
Messages
2,129
I failed to find a product on sale in North america using V420DK* panel.

so i decided to update info on which panel parts from inoolux are still in production. Turns out that only the M280Dg remains in production.
panelook now says this 28" is rated for 60Hz, which can be a typo, because previously it was rated at 120hz, and we know for a fact that Cirthix showed one running at 4k 120hz.

Keeping the same VA tech, 4k resolution and connection type, there are another 2 panels in production from Chimei Innolux that can interest us:

M315DJJ
Found on the AOC
U3277PWQU

and the
S400DJ1, http://www.panelook.com/S400DJ1-KS5_Innolux_40_LCM_overview_27335.html

i did not found Tvs with it, but this panel appears on the compatibility list of the
SVX-4096

This picked my attention, because it is a 4K 120HZ CONTROL BOARD


i told Cirthix that time to market was relevant:cat:


 

cirthix

Limp Gawd
Joined
Aug 30, 2006
Messages
223
No, no NDA, conspiracy, death, or anything else like that.

I got led down a shitty path by a company who was going to offer freesync capable chips. Designed a test board, then they said "oh, no, we cant sell you these chips, they are for mfgr X only". This was after waiting weeks for NDA and datasheet and stuff.

So I went back to work on the backlight driver and got that working. The backlight driver might be of interest to the modding community all on its own. 10-30v input, 1-6 channels, strobing with current boost, pwm at up to 20khz, pwm-free dimming between 50 and 395mA, onboard atmega328 (the common arduino chip) for easy reconfiguration. Can be used for modding/hacking strobe mode, or to replace a hard to find part in a broken display.

Almost done with the backlight controller firmware and two full review units will ship out this week.
 
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