This is the kind of discussion I am expecting out of this topic if it can't be political. Your comment is gold.
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San Francisco University Lays Off IT Workers; Jobs Head to India
- Thread starter cageymaru
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Makaveli@BETA
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It does send a message doesn't it
The message is move to india if you want to work an american job lol
Hahaha, made me LOL and reminded me of this exchange just af few days ago:
Me on phone with Nintendo Support, trying to get repair service going (DOA refurb Wii U from Nintendo...). The worst part was that the dude was American, accent, and all.
Support: Push the red syncing button and let me know when the dancing cards come up.
Me: Yeah, same frozen Wii U logo as before.
Support: You're not listening to me. Please press the red button and tell me if you see the red cards.
Me: Dude, why would any dancing cards be appearing when I've told you I can't get past the Wii U logo after boot-up. Nothing works. I already told you.
Support: (raising voice) You're not listening to me sir, please press the red button.
Me: I already did press the red button, every second for the entirety of our conversation about the red-button... (then I realized I was getting heated up and he was just going through Lvl 1 support motions and wasn't going to relent). OK... I'm doing as you said, still nothing.
<10 more minutes back and forth doing extremely stupid troubleshooting steps that repeated themselves over and over, which I'm convinced was the result of clicking the wrong choice/arrow on his screen prompts and starting over repeatedly>
Support: Well, it looks like you need to send it in for repair.
This is exactly the reason why I dragged my feet calling them once I found out I couldn't initiate a warranty repair online. Get your shit together, Nintendooor!
I had a bunch of doctors using overnight transcription services based in India, basically because they paid me to save them money. A few years later the company in India lost the contract to my new cheaper alternative, new software with voice recognition that automatically did the transcription and was HIPPA compliant (a big deal).
It's a race to the bottom and automation will win, as it works with no breaks or time off and a couple folks to keep it running instead of a stable full of drones. Glad I'm closer to the end than the beginning of my career, as this stuff sucks IMO. No thought of the long term good anymore.
It's a race to the bottom and automation will win, as it works with no breaks or time off and a couple folks to keep it running instead of a stable full of drones. Glad I'm closer to the end than the beginning of my career, as this stuff sucks IMO. No thought of the long term good anymore.
Chupachup
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Ad-hoc trimming of the fat:
"The University of California, San Francisco, a school focused on health care and research, in an attempt to save 30 million dollars over 5 years has entered into a 5 year $50 million outsourcing deal to save on costs."
To sum up:
Current: $30,000,000 and jobs in America
Future : $50,000,000 plus jobs lost to India and an unspoken for $20M surplus in spending for the same period
They negate any possible savings potential and actually create an IT support environment that costs $20 million more than the currently existing one for the same period?! It's pretty obvious there is no leadership with even the most basic of math skills directing this activity. I can't wait to see their version of reality explained in the coming days/weeks.
When there is this much gross ignorance (blatant thievery?) being so blatantly shown, it's time for the State Legislature to initiate an audit and review by an independent counsel.
Bets on how high tuition rates will be raised to cover the increased "support costs" and other *cough* "sundry expenses" *cough-cough*?
"The University of California, San Francisco, a school focused on health care and research, in an attempt to save 30 million dollars over 5 years has entered into a 5 year $50 million outsourcing deal to save on costs."
To sum up:
Current: $30,000,000 and jobs in America
Future : $50,000,000 plus jobs lost to India and an unspoken for $20M surplus in spending for the same period
They negate any possible savings potential and actually create an IT support environment that costs $20 million more than the currently existing one for the same period?! It's pretty obvious there is no leadership with even the most basic of math skills directing this activity. I can't wait to see their version of reality explained in the coming days/weeks.
When there is this much gross ignorance (blatant thievery?) being so blatantly shown, it's time for the State Legislature to initiate an audit and review by an independent counsel.
Bets on how high tuition rates will be raised to cover the increased "support costs" and other *cough* "sundry expenses" *cough-cough*?
SixFootDuo
Supreme [H]ardness
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There is a guy here in Kansas City that attends some of my meetup groups, won't give his name but he taught himself Python and then went on to learn Apple Swift. He also has a background in IT and PHP, CSS, Html, etc. He told me a few years ago that IT was a dead end. There will be a lot more stories like this if not already.
Anyway, this guy is in his early 30's. The last time I remember talking to him he had mentioned he lived in a small apartment. This past December, him and his GF had an Eggnog social / Christmas part thing at his "new house" ..... I didn't get to speak to him much but I asked him how the App business was treating him. His first app has made over $280k and was only released in late Aug of 2016. Oh and his house was really nice.
Yeah, IT? ......... killing yourself for $45 - 55k or maybe more on the East or West coast.
Anyway, this guy is in his early 30's. The last time I remember talking to him he had mentioned he lived in a small apartment. This past December, him and his GF had an Eggnog social / Christmas part thing at his "new house" ..... I didn't get to speak to him much but I asked him how the App business was treating him. His first app has made over $280k and was only released in late Aug of 2016. Oh and his house was really nice.
Yeah, IT? ......... killing yourself for $45 - 55k or maybe more on the East or West coast.
It's $30 million in savings over the new $50 million dollar plan, so $80 million for jobs in America, $50 million for jobs overseas.
Just keeping it honest here.
I don't know how that's possible, as how to address the outsourcing epidemic of technology services to SE Asia is a political issue. All I can say is the obvious, everyone loves outsourcing until its their jobs that are outsourced.
Speaking from personal experience, we even outsourced part of our HR and Finance teams to India, yes, two things you would think not in a million years it would be possible to outsource. Those guys did an instant 180o on the benefits of outsourcing when they were hitting everyone up on LinkedIn looking for work, and that's all money out of our economy and into foreign ones.
Really sucks to lose your job when you didn't do anything wrong, and were kicking ass and taking names with customers very happy with your performance, but someone overseas is able to half-ass your job for peanuts all to save a select few people that are already rich a little bit of money. NOT GOOD!
MrValentine
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I would have transferred the jobs to another part of the country. Move them to OKC and pay them 90-100k. Other than moving they wouldn't have much to bitch about. Cost of living would drop drastically and they wouldn't have to deal with being in CA. OKC would benefit from suddenly having a lot more high paying high tech jobs.
jtm55
Gawd
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Hi All
I wonder what's going to happen once all jobs are out sourced and or automated. What happens then?
I wonder what's going to happen once all jobs are out sourced and or automated. What happens then?
Apart from a handful of people a couple of countries doing research on Basic (or Universal) Income, we are merely kicking the can down the road and ignoring it So, we have no idea what will happen, but an educated guess is probably doable. Either a lot of dead people or what I just mentioned.
I think the minimum wage is like $7.25 / hr, so how would there not be cost-savings in terms of labor?
You're my hero. I would love to dump software dev forever because the industry has turned into a complete joke. But job availability and pay in other industries are iffy, and they don't tend to take any jabroni right off the streets.
Taldren
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Sigh, more Trump supporters INC. Not a fan of Trump, but geeze, you are basically creating his supporters for him with this crap.
Here's a question: I wonder what anyone studying CS or IT at this place is thinking to themselves right about now........
This school doesn't have any CS/IT or even business majors; just healthcare stuff. I hope they do have some basic classes, so doctors learn how to use computers, too.
If you look at my posting history you can clearly see which side of the isle I relate with. Having said that, I think this is one thing that it's less about politics (almost none at all) and more about corporations taking advantage of something that's available. H1-B Visas started as (I think) a temporary solution in filling out positions in areas that we were sorely lacking. Corporations saw this as an opportunity to replace people they felt were being paid too much to replace with cheap alternatives. Once their time was up, they either got someone else within the program, or started hiring from a "clean slate" as it were. Corporations also saw that simply outsourcing would be even cheaper, and now it's just something that a lot of people see as the norm, and not as a worrying symptom of something much bigger. Companies big and small are taking advantage, and turning something that on its surface is benign into something completely malignant.
I think it's impossible to remove the politics of this issue, for sure. But it's not something that can be pinned to one side or the other, so we shouldn't bring that aspect of it up. The mods here are taking the right approach, but it's still a very difficult topic to discuss.
I work with UCSF. The instructors there are top notch. Never dealt with the IT side.
Not surprising though. It's getting expensive here for companies. I do expect the cost of living to drop as it's become unsustainable and they're bringing more housing online to meet demand.
Shame though.
Not surprising though. It's getting expensive here for companies. I do expect the cost of living to drop as it's become unsustainable and they're bringing more housing online to meet demand.
Shame though.
Grimlaking
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Here's the problem. The more companies outsource entry level IT positions like this the less built in growth thy have into upper level IT positions like I have grown into. I recognize I was lucky to come into. This industry when I did and have grown organically over decades into my role. There are secure IT positions out there. Look at companies that are NOT It companies and have been around a long time. Places that have services that need good IT and security. You will find the jobs.. And they will be more secure.
In Theory, Star Trek is what will eventually happen.
Of course that it would be wise to remember that for the Utopia of Star Trek they had some very VERY dark years first, which imho is pretty realist from the show. You just can't change the entire economic structure of your society and not expect to feel some whiplash and massive growing pains.
YeuEmMaiMai
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but they are university edumacated and as such are smarterz than the rest of us who sit back and laugh when it blows up in their faces
I think that quite a few people here are missing the trees trying to see a forest in there. Try and look at the problems innate to San Francisco's high cost of living and thus high costs for most positions.
IMHO one of the bigger problems that San Francisco faces is that it wants to grow, but is constrained physically with the greater bay area and it is also constrained with zoning and other construction regulations that don't even allow you to build taller buildings nor buildings able to house more than a certain ammount of units due to density limits, this then creates an almost fixed offer of living spaces for an ever increasing demand, this will increase the cost of living naturally and thus increase the salary required to work and live there.
I am still over simplying this, but i do think that SF will eventually have to realize that times change, and their current limitations are constraining them too much, their best bet would be to both, soften the restrictions and expand the city through suburbs (that will eventually be absorbed into the greater city). This would lessen the salary required to live and work there, but wouldn't be the only thing needed.
I do think that they should study into the option of granting incentives to keep the positions on site, even if reduced in number, through tax cuts or what have you. This would have to be a job for accountants and sociologists or similar, looking at the possible growth into the future, because i think that all this could have been either avoided or reduced with a bit less myopic laws and regulations.
But this is all just my opinion.
IMHO one of the bigger problems that San Francisco faces is that it wants to grow, but is constrained physically with the greater bay area and it is also constrained with zoning and other construction regulations that don't even allow you to build taller buildings nor buildings able to house more than a certain ammount of units due to density limits, this then creates an almost fixed offer of living spaces for an ever increasing demand, this will increase the cost of living naturally and thus increase the salary required to work and live there.
I am still over simplying this, but i do think that SF will eventually have to realize that times change, and their current limitations are constraining them too much, their best bet would be to both, soften the restrictions and expand the city through suburbs (that will eventually be absorbed into the greater city). This would lessen the salary required to live and work there, but wouldn't be the only thing needed.
I do think that they should study into the option of granting incentives to keep the positions on site, even if reduced in number, through tax cuts or what have you. This would have to be a job for accountants and sociologists or similar, looking at the possible growth into the future, because i think that all this could have been either avoided or reduced with a bit less myopic laws and regulations.
But this is all just my opinion.
Benefits. People don't realize salaries aren't what kills, the benefits are. Salaries are probably closer to $80k, with the remaining $250k or so the benefits the University shells out.
I don't disagree with you, in principal at least. But you have to ask yourself, is OKC marketing itself to universities in California as a full-service, 24 hour IT department? Because that is exactly what these Indian companies are doing. They have a nice American representative in a suit buying dinners for the opportunity to sell them $30 million in savings. As much as I would love to see those be American jobs, it is extremely difficult for American companies to offer competitive packages.
What you guys are overlooking is everything that you aren't paid, that is why everyone is sitting here trying to figure out math and it doesn't make sense. You can only take 1 + 2 and know the answer is 6 so many times before you release that you are missing a value. You are paid more than your hourly wage I bet. Most people get benefits, which those are part of what you make also. On average this makes the cost of an employee 1.2 through 1.4x their base salary. So if you assumed $100,000 we are looking at $120,000 - $140,000 as the actual cost of that employee. Given that this is a school, you have to factor in the free tuition as a cost also. So if you assume that averaged out that is $20,000 a person that gets used. You would be at $140,000 to $160,000 a person there. By removing the person completely you remove other things not directly related to the person such as hardware and software, which could make up your few other grand there. So of that $165k a year, it is very reasonable to say that is really $100K a year for what a person is paid and $65K in benefits + misc cost. Either way employees are more than just their salary, there are many other cost in the background.
davethehedgehog
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Whilst this is true, those "costs" aren't as clear as just being costs. That money goes into various internal coffers and is spent within the economy that earns it. There is a net benefit to that money being earned and spent in house. It's also invested in savings, pensions and more. If that money is paid to an outsourced company, especially one abroad, that money is lost from the economy forever. That's why, in my opinion, outsourcing is an extremely short sighted process. Not only is the service typically poorer, but the money leaves the economy entirely.
GDI Lord
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That is a bucket-ton of money.
In South Africa we call that "Cost to Company," which is - rather surprisingly! - the total cost to the company for an employee. We have a salary and a CTC and both are listed on our payslips at the end of the month.
I'm not up on exactly what get paid to an out-source, but the quoted figure is probably pretty correct.
First it's state education, so state monies, pension, and health insurance. The yearly salary is peanuts compared to the pension and insurance.
Then there's time off and paid double holidays, etc.
So just paying some guy in India is the cheap way out, a douche move, but cheap.
Frankly, I'd pay a couple more bucks in taxes to keep American guys working, on site, rather than some guy in India.
First it's state education, so state monies, pension, and health insurance. The yearly salary is peanuts compared to the pension and insurance.
Then there's time off and paid double holidays, etc.
So just paying some guy in India is the cheap way out, a douche move, but cheap.
Frankly, I'd pay a couple more bucks in taxes to keep American guys working, on site, rather than some guy in India.
AK0tA
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A massive savings to whom? no one, the federal money goe's into the program, American and local citizens have jobs thus affording to send their kids to school and support local economy and said school with their tax dollars, tuitions and moneys spent = win win for every one. Export the jobs the local economy crumbles, the quality of work is sub par requiring local people to fix causing more cluster disaster, students now need more loans causing more debt. Any corporation outsourcing work should not recieve any federal funding period. Hire local or die out, then the argument of who will pick our vegetables that is what migrant workers are for right? Well how about using welfare people and prisoners to do that work ie no free ride.
OpenSource
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Seems like the only places fairly safe right now for IT workers are jobs where security clearances are needed as can't just give those away (AFAIK)
The teaching medical university here is screaming they are losing money.
Of course if you go into the hospital no one in the halls or rooms speaks english.
And all their bills are never paid....
Wonder why they are losing money?
Well how about using welfare people and prisoners to do that work ie no free ride.
ROFL thats all we have in this country now is people who DONT work and then shout they are poor...Get off your lazy ass and get a job if you want to eat.
Of course if you go into the hospital no one in the halls or rooms speaks english.
And all their bills are never paid....
Wonder why they are losing money?
Well how about using welfare people and prisoners to do that work ie no free ride.
ROFL thats all we have in this country now is people who DONT work and then shout they are poor...Get off your lazy ass and get a job if you want to eat.
As an IT worker in the SF bay area I have found the safest places to work are businesses that are between 100-200 people. They are big enough to have their shit together but too small to make sense outsourcing. Typically though my teams are a bit lean and jack of all trade type people due to this. For example no network specific position, instead they handle Network, San, Servers and such.
But being safe isnt where the money is, the money is in startups(or was, thats crashing now) and big business like university and tech giants. I had a job offer from Standford that was pretty awesome salary wise but my team would of been huge, and I like things more personal.
But being safe isnt where the money is, the money is in startups(or was, thats crashing now) and big business like university and tech giants. I had a job offer from Standford that was pretty awesome salary wise but my team would of been huge, and I like things more personal.
sfsuphysics
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UCSF is a medical school though, it's not like 4 year college take what you want stuff. These IT guys are not "students" as a result, and I can tell you this if they were students their salaries would be absolutely tiny compared to someone who's actually hired.
I would question the need for 97 IT workers myself, and you have to realize half of those were contractors, so those don't get any of the health/pension benefits that the worker gets which might balloon those numbers a bit.
Health is the tricky one as that's a union negotiated price, but even me (as a teacher) don't save THAT much unless 1) it's just me with health, or 2) I have a lot of kids (price increase stops after the first), but having just done my taxes I think the employer paid value of the health was something over $10k a year, that's big but not super huge by any stretch.
Pension could be the issue, as those can balloon out of control if you have a large retiring workforce that ends up living a long time, but firing them does not in any way remove an employers pension responsibilities, they simply don't get as much when they retire now. But a lot of schools are getting rid of pensions in favor of cash balance accounts for new workers, so that would only increase the employer cost by 4-8%
Salaries are not going to be 100k for every IT work either, that is the senior supervisor roles, again do they really need 97 of them?
Maybe they're counting the cost of having offices for the people? Rentable space? Because a lot of that number just doesn't add up.
And there is nothing wrong with "comparative advantage" when it comes to trade, and if we had so much work that there weren't enough Americans to work them, or it freed up Americans to work more lucrative jobs, then absolutely, outsource.
But we've long since past the tipping point where there is simply no concern over the welfare of the average citizen of the United States, which should always be first and foremost consideration in any common nationwide policy; "Does this improve the lives of Americans". If it does, it should be encouraged and perhaps even subsidized if necessary, but if it does not, and only benefits a handful of people that are already immensely wealthy (which is already a problem as is), then it needs to be discouraged and penalized... and frankly, I think public opinion is shifting enough that we're finally getting there very soon w/ the out of control outsourcing and visas.
Regarding healthcare costs though, sure that is a problem and we should work on ways to lower that, which includes encouraging people to live healthier lifestyles, because the obesity epidemic is costing us a fortune and hurts American quality of life, plain and simple. But just sending people home, many of whom are collecting unemployment and no longer contributing to the economy, while money is poured out of our coffers overseas is not a good solution no matter how you slice it.
westrock2000
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I can't find the video clip, but I thought it was at UC Berkeley. This is not the same as Berkeley right? Just close to each other? Maybe it was UCSF though. I just seem to remember Janet Napolitano being mentioned which would be Berkeley.
Anyways, I thought the plan the IT group had their was brilliant. They were going to sue the school on grounds of discrimination because they said that the IT group was made up a diverse group of people and now they were ONLY going to employ people from a very specific section of the population (India). I thought that was fitting for a school from that part of the country. Reap what you sow.
Anyways, I thought the plan the IT group had their was brilliant. They were going to sue the school on grounds of discrimination because they said that the IT group was made up a diverse group of people and now they were ONLY going to employ people from a very specific section of the population (India). I thought that was fitting for a school from that part of the country. Reap what you sow.
I hope you truly mean encouraging by OFFERING healthy alternatives, not mandating it.
Outsourcing our jobs to India helps only one thing, India. I ALWAYS ask for an American call center when I get "George" on the line who rolls the letter R, and I get that slight delay on the phone. That's not George, it's Habib!
Not bashing those employees, it's not their fault. At least they are working!
...and I believe that is why Kyle just simply says NO. Those subjects seems to turn of the centers of the brain governing logic. I just leave the room when those topics come up, because someone almost always eventually gets zealous in their argument.
Well there is no logic to talking politics these days, there is no center line anymore. Just 2 ways of thinking. Those looking for a balanced center are in a different universe. Including me.
I just mean "encouraging". People don't enjoy feeling manipulated or with any trickery or of course worse yet force, but you can look at incentives in place for things like energy star and cars and the like, and apply some of that to health:
1) Promote building of public projects like parks, build more bicycle lanes, build bicycle locking areas near commercial areas, build skating areas, and mountain bike paths, etc. and when designing new roads and the like consider walk paths and scenery and the like to make people want to be active (my area is so dangerous, I wouldn't ride a bicycle in a million years as I would literally be killed by the out of control traffic, or at least shoved into a ditch as we have no shoulder).
2) Target the young with food education, because its important and is affecting our bottom line, far more even than say learning French or something.
3) Require very large chain restaurants to clearly advertise their nutrition labels, such as pre-printed on the wrapper for the taco-supreme or whopper with cheese, or even better would be Chick-Fil-A style where its right on the menu the calories.
4) Allow categories of health and sports equipment to be tax free
5) Allow raw vegetables and other fresh produce to be tax free to make it more economical
6) Provide tax incentives for businesses to include gyms for employees, for a building with an occupancy above a minimum threshold.
7) Break even on the tax breaks for the above two, with a tax on drinks or foods that have above a certain sugar content per standardized serving size
8) Higher insurance premiums for individuals with body fat percentages over 30%.
9) Public education that comes from the top, with campaigns like Arnold used to have with Bush to raise awareness.
We often talk about whether or not we have enough money for NASA collectively, while ignoring the fact that the obesity epidemic is estimated to be costing US tax payers $190 billion a year, and that's hurting everyone.
There are a lot of options, with the goal being not to force, but to provide incentives. Do something that helps your country = get a little something for your effort. Do something that hurts your country = get a disincentive.
You said no to mandates, but I see mandates.
Taxes on sugar
a "tax" on BMI, even though some people can't control it. What do you say to someone like my daughter who suffers from atypical-pyschosis / Autism, and anti-psychotic medicines produce hefty weight gains. She gained over 30 lbs in 30 days when she started it, but it's leveled off. So you are saying make her suffer immensely because of this. (She's a vegan and eats maybe 1200-1500 calories a day)
I say NO to your financial penalties. You are completely leaving out those that have problems beyond their control.
How is a tax on sugar beyond someone's control? It just means the price of a can of Coca Cola would go up a little bit. Everyone has the ability to choose whether or not to buy a sugar drink, and sugar drinks are said by experts to be one of the leading causes of obesity and type 2 adult onset diabetes.
Regarding higher healthcare costs for those with body fat percentages over 30% (not BMI, actual measured body fat estimate), its simply about paying more for statistically using more with regard to insurance. Is it fair to make a 16 year old boy in a Camaro SS pay more for car insurance than a 45 year old man in a Camry LE? I would argue yes, because the insurance costs for the former are certainly higher than the latter on average, even though no one has control over their age. Ultimately though, when you set rules, they have to be for the 99.9%, as otherwise you can name rare exceptions for just about anything.