San Francisco, Seattle Tire of Comcast, Mull Building Citywide Fiber Networks

DooKey

DooKey

[H]F Junkie
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San Francisco and Seattle are contemplating building citywide fiber networks to connect all home and businesses in their cities. Overall the plan is to have a dark network of fiber that the city owns and then allows it to be used by multiple commercial ISPs to bring competition to the residents of the city and lower prices. I'm not sure if I'm on board with the idea because I'm not sure the city government is really going to do what they say since they are the ones that negotiated competition away in the first place. Also, is it really even worth it when the tax payers are going to have to pay billions in new taxes to just build this network so they can save a few bucks a month in the long run on their internet bill? Not sure of the ROI for the taxpayer.

Back in 2009, an FCC study found that such open access models result in more competition and lower rates (pdf). But, overly-influenced by large ISPs terrified of competition, the FCC promptly put the study in a drawer and forgot about it. Isolated municipal broadband deployments still sometimes embrace the idea, however. Like in Ammon, Idaho, where the municipal network there lets consumers switch between multiple ISPs in a matter of seconds if they're dissatisfied with their carrier. Open access was the model Google Fiber originally promised it would pursue with its own gigabit fiber build before promptly backpedaling.
 
I'd prefer Seattle focus on the roads, homeless, etc. I think the fact we don't hear Amazon, Facebook, Microsoft, and countless others bitchin about it means its working well enough.
 
2 bankrupt cities with some of the highest taxes in the country already. What could possibly go wrong lol
 
It's a solid step towards pushing internet into title 2 status. But there is bigger fish to fry like roads and homeless issues that otherweeb mentioned.
 
From what I've heard, Seattle already has quite a bit of dark fiber just sitting around doing nothing. I'm not sure how much of that is actually usable at this stage. I also don't remember the details, but I heard this from a fairly reliable source a few years back.
 
I don't see a problem with this, since considering this could drastically help Seattle more so. By having proper competition this could make Seattle immune to net neutrality issues, just in Trump does remove it. This also means more business may wanna setup shop there since they won't have awful internet. As for taxes, the government has given ISPs money in the past to improve their coverage and performance, only to do the opposite. If taxes do go up, just make sure it effects those above the middle class tax bracket.
 
This has been widely successful in other cities/towns/nations that have already done this. It creates and keeps some jobs in relation to building and maintaining the network, but it also creates new opportunities for new businesses to open and use high speed fiber connections to enrich themselves and the new employees they hire. This not only increases the economic forecast of the areas, but it also creates tax revenue from businesses and employees. Basically the same effect of building roads/highways. Government spending=private and public jobs + economic prosperity which itself = long term tax revenue for budget neutral/budget surplus. It's basic economics, "You need to spend money to make money".
 
Can't wait to hear Pai make a speech about how this would be bad for consumers, stifle competition/rollout and hurt the poor poor ISPs like VZ/ATT/Spectrum etc....
 
otherweeb said:
I'd prefer Seattle focus on the roads, homeless, etc. I think the fact we don't hear Amazon, Facebook, Microsoft, and countless others bitchin about it means its working well enough.
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I doubt those companies use Comcast and Municipal fiber is way WAY better than Comcast, if Chattanooga and Lafayette LA are the norm.
 
I think this is a great idea and it should be a giant cost saver.

And if large cities can pull this off, mid and smaller cities should be able to accomplish fairly easy.

In areas that are excessively rural it might get a bit pricey on a per household basis, but still should be better than the current solution.
 
It absolutely would be better for the consumer, if you don't think cable companies have been jacking up their internet rates to recapture revenue from cord cutters you are a fool. They can keep doing this because there are literally no other options, companies like Comcast, att, and Verizon have defacto monopolies and collude with each other to keep out new competitors. Their lobbyists do a great job keeping government on the payroll with all the red tape and right of way bullshit for someone wanting to roll out a fiber network in exchange for political donations.
 
It's ok people in those cities are used to paying tons of taxes, they seem to like it.
 
DocFaustus said:
I think this is a great idea and it should be a giant cost saver.
And if large cities can pull this off, mid and smaller cities should be able to accomplish fairly easy.
In areas that are excessively rural it might get a bit pricey on a per household basis, but still should be better than the current solution.
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I think this type of thing started with smaller cities. I imagine it's more expensive in bigger cities (but someone who does this type of work can probably give a more authoritative opinion)
 
Our smaller town north of Seattle is trying to do this as well. Seems like an awesome idea.

Problem is, the cost to get FTTH is somewhere around $2k plus $500 or so in equipment, per home. So figuring out how the city/taxpayers are going to pay for that is going to be an issue.
 
MavericK said:
Our smaller town north of Seattle is trying to do this as well. Seems like an awesome idea.
Problem is, the cost to get FTTH is somewhere around $2k plus $500 or so in equipment, per home. So figuring out how the city/taxpayers are going to pay for that is going to be an issue.
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Use bonds and get the money from fees over 30 years. The thing to keep in mind is that as soon as you build this your current Cable/ISP is going to drop prices. In Lafayette, Cox constantly runs low specials and as soon as FTTH started going live, they announced they were deploying their first DOCcis (sp) 3 upgrade in the country. Prior to that, they'd done very little in the city. I'm sure the same thing happened in Chattanooga.
 
otherweeb said:
I'd prefer Seattle focus on the roads, homeless, etc. I think the fact we don't hear Amazon, Facebook, Microsoft, and countless others bitchin about it means its working well enough.
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i find it hilarious since it's the city government of seattle it's self that's taking backdoor money from the ISP's that have created the problem they have to begin with.. they're the ones that setup the city in a way that none of the ISP's actually compete with each other. but given seattle's history of squandering tax payers money, good luck to you guys that live there because i don't see this working out in your favor at all.
 
nilepez said:
I think this type of thing started with smaller cities. I imagine it's more expensive in bigger cities
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It does cost more to build it in bigger cities, however, bigger cities also have more taxpayers, so it even outs in the end. Its kinda like those that claim each individual European state can afford to provide healthcare, higher education, child care, sick leave, paid vacation, etc to all their citizens because they have less people than America (even though when all are combined in the European Union they have another 185 million+). Yes, America has more people than each individual country, but again, we have more people paying taxes, so it evens out.
 
well the fiber should already be in the ground. 1996 telecommunications act and all.

they just need access to it.
 
Chunder said:
It does cost more to build it in bigger cities, however, bigger cities also have more taxpayers, so it even outs in the end. Its kinda like those that claim each individual European state can afford to provide healthcare, higher education, child care, sick leave, paid vacation, etc to all their citizens because they have less people than America (even though when all are combined in the European Union they have another 185 million+). Yes, America has more people than each individual country, but again, we have more people paying taxes, so it evens out.
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I can't speak to Chattanooga, but no tax payer dollars were spent in Lafayette. It's all funded by bonds which will be paid for by people who subscribe for Internet, Phone and TV.

And I meant more/subscriber, not just more over all.
 
lol Seattle has wanted to do this for well over a decade, it always goes nowhere due fiber ownership, easements, funding, and politics.... I'll be surprised if that changes, if it does, it's going to be expensive.
 
Umm att is doing a giant push of fttp in the San Jose/San Fransico area, replacing entire neighborhoods worth of copper for fiber...

Idk what the city is bitching about...

That they're not getting a big enough piece of the pie?
 
Lol. This is just a ploy to have Comcast lobby to remain the primary ISP. And by lobby I mean bribe the government, er, "gift" them money.
 
scojer said:
Lol. This is just a ploy to have Comcast lobby to remain the primary ISP. And by lobby I mean bribe the government, er, "gift" them money.
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probably.. every time my city tries to do something about the lack of isp competition comcast just threatens them to move the data center here some where else and the city caves since it needs the tax dollars from them.. sadly century link is to incompetent to know how to install fiber in a 120+ year old city so they've only progressed 3 miles in the last 2 years.
 
Fiber is cheap, the CMTS's and routers on the other end sure aren't. The cooling bill alone on the buildings housing that stuff is massive.
 
sirmonkey1985 said:
probably.. every time my city tries to do something about the lack of isp competition comcast just threatens them to move the data center here some where else and the city caves since it needs the tax dollars from them.. sadly century link is to incompetent to know how to install fiber in a 120+ year old city so they've only progressed 3 miles in the last 2 years.
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I am sure Amazon can replace those DCs pretty quickly...
 
Nice to see cities that can plan for the future for a change, taking success stories from Europe and applying it locally is something that would've been nice to see nationwide - shared lines opening up the free market instead of locking areas in monopolies - but that's not realistic, so high tech jobs will stay where high tech city planning is as usual.
 
86 5.0L said:
Umm att is doing a giant push of fttp in the San Jose/San Fransico area, replacing entire neighborhoods worth of copper for fiber...

Idk what the city is bitching about...

That they're not getting a big enough piece of the pie?
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It is a new revenue stream for them. This will not be done out of the kindness of their hearts. If the people are willing to pay the tax increase I say more power to them.
 
86 5.0L said:
Umm att is doing a giant push of fttp in the San Jose/San Fransico area, replacing entire neighborhoods worth of copper for fiber...

Idk what the city is bitching about...

That they're not getting a big enough piece of the pie?
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They're bitching about the fact that in the US we have some of the worst internet speeds for the highest prices relative the rest of the industrialized world. That stifles businesses and innovation in your city.
 
bos said:
They're bitching about the fact that in the US we have some of the worst internet speeds for the highest prices relative the rest of the industrialized world. That stifles businesses and innovation in your city.
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1Gbps for $80-$100 is stifling? Ok...
 
86 5.0L said:
1Gbps for $80-$100 is stifling? Ok...
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Yeah 95% of America doesn't even have access to gig speed, for me it's $150/mo and is only 30mbps up with a terabyte data cap, that's a bunch of bullshit right there and I consider myself one of the lucky ones since I even have access to high speed broadband at all.
 
sirmonkey1985 said:
sadly century link is to incompetent to know how to install fiber in a 120+ year old city so they've only progressed 3 miles in the last 2 years.
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They don't have to be, they are the new mega bell at this point. I never thought I'd say this but I hate them more than USWest and Qwest. Of course, it looks like Qwest went down the drain/sold out due to resisting the NSA et. al after 9/11.
 
tbonepat11 said:
2 bankrupt cities with some of the highest taxes in the country already. What could possibly go wrong lol
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SF has its problems but lack of cash is definitely not one of them. SF has a $10 billion annual budget, which if it were a state would be 36th in the US. It has an estimated $30 billion in assets vs. $22 billion in debts, with a roughly $100 million deficit from year to year (common in large government budgets) mostly due to a huge pension system. We can afford all kinds of silly shit. (Personally I wouldn't find a municipal fiber silly but hey.)
 
86 5.0L said:
Umm att is doing a giant push of fttp in the San Jose/San Fransico area, replacing entire neighborhoods worth of copper for fiber...
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Yeah AT&T has been saying that for a while now, haven't seen shit about where their progress is though, all the meanwhile they're happy to offer me up to 5Mbps of service! Woohoo, 20 years and that just about triples what speed they originally offered was, progress!!! Meanwhile I can get 250+Mbps from Comcast without blinking an eye if I want to pay the price, they were nice enough to give me a teaser taste when I first signed up over a year ago.

But yeah SF laid a fiber line less than 2 blocks from me over a decade ago, dark fiber then, dark fiber now. Don't get me started on the free wireless project they had too.
 
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