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Samsung SA850 on PLS - the first review has been published (preproduction unit)

I really fail to comprehend why people are even arguing here. IPS monitors have very glittery crystalline "whites". That is a fact. Whether or not someone finds it bearable is subjective, but whites do look radically different compared to a CRT or mildly coated matte monitor. The fact that professional artists are FORCED to use choose between a harsh AG display or a glossy Apple display is completely irrelevant to the discussion. Many people would like to buy a 2560x1440 or 2560x1600 matte computer monitor with backlighting like the DELL U2711 and U3011 and clean whites of the Samsung SA850. Such a product does not exist. The display industry really sucks. :(
 
I feel like this is made to be a way bigger deal that it actually is, I'm totally fine with my LP3065 which is an aggressively coated IPS panel. It REALLY doesn't bother me, if I had the option for less AG would I go with it? Probably, just because I tend to like glossy panels better as personal preference.
 
GuyClinch said:
Reading comprehension for the loss.
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You claim "Those expensive IPS monitors look like garbage in comparison"

When I said that is opinion, you claimed it wasn't, and "people can rationalize - so they can 'live with it'"

This would apparently include all users pro and otherwise. I mentioned pros because you thought it was "remarkable how bad the so called 'professional' monitors with the AG coating look"

There is nothing remarkable about Pro monitors being AG if you don't get stuck arrogantly thinking your opinion, that pro monitors looks like garbage and users are just rationalizing, is a fact.
 
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Snowdog said:
There is nothing remarkable about Pro monitors being AG if you don't get stuck arrogantly thinking your opinion, that pro monitors looks like garbage and users are just rationalizing, is a fact.
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There may not be anything remarkable about Pros using AG monitors... but what I find remarkable is that in the year 2011, Pro monitors lack the clarity of displays that existed 10 years ago. Granted my old NEC CRT is a behemoth in size and is only 15", but I found the display far more satisfactory to my DELL U3011. I had the two sitting side by side, and the image on the U3011 had far more noise. I know the difference may not be a deal breaker for some users, which is fine. But imho it feels like the display industry is taking huge steps backwards, it just seems nonsensical to me. My decade old display should look completely unsatisfactory next to a new $1400 IPS display, not the other way around.
 
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...just walking around and thinking....don`t to argue about the coating types, everyone have their own preferences, some like - some dont, for me the monitor must be well ballanced in every aspect - for example even the power supply needs to be quiet and not whinning if the brightness is changed, can stand the relative weak blacks if the colors are in line after calibration, the build quality must be reasonable and feel appropriate its target customer, so all in all - it doesn`t need to be superstar in every aspect, but well ballanced is all i need, and after all - I think I`ll buy this S27A850, hope it will be satisfactory addition to 2490WUXi1
 
People can't have a coating preference because they have no choice when it comes to IPS. Either you pay way to much for the ACD or destroy whites+light colors with the other models.

If they could go to a store and chose between 2 IPS panels with the same picture quality (same model), except one has light AG and the other aggressive, they would not pick the monitor which looks like its been through a sand storm.

The people saying the coating is fine are stuck with what they have or don't notice (ignorance is bliss), while the people complaining are new buyers who are exploring their options.
 
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I basically have preferences for coating - it has to be somewhere in between the "glass" Opticlear coating of 20WGX2 and matte 2490WUXi1. Basically that Samsung should be in between.

Btw - my brother recently bought Dell U2412M, and quite like it in regards of the coating (me too).
 
NCX said:
People can't have a coating preference because they have no choice when it comes to IPS.
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Btw, personally - the subjective feeling of coating is dramatically affected by the ambient lighting. And that is a matter of preference - matte for bright ambient lighting and glass/glossy for low ambient - or vice versa - per the person preference - so I don`t think that the one way and no the other you suggest is correct.

I`m in the graphical industry quite a few years, and I know this - I value my sight so much that I`m open to anything that would ease my eyes when looking at the monitor. So I choose the lcd mostly by that as it performs in my work room. And that`s why I have the such "coating prefernce".
 
3d_vlk said:
I basically have preferences for coating - it has to be somewhere in between the "glass" Opticlear coating of 20WGX2 and matte 2490WUXi1. Basically that Samsung should be in between.

Btw - my brother recently bought Dell U2412M, and quite like it in regards of the coating (me too).
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U2412M coating is just fine IMHO with a good balance of AG and glare/flare reduction. The 2490WUXi2-BK is pretty similar to it in my eyes. Neither is bad at all. I believe the 2490WUXi (1) and 2690WUXi (1) are similar to each and probably two of the best.

I also thought my 2709W was pretty good in that regard too. It had a Samsung panel, so if the PLS panels are the same you should be happy with it.
 
NCX said:
If you can't see the extreme differences in whites+light colors between your Eizo (light AG) and 2209WA (aggressive AG) I think it is your credibility that is in question.
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I can see the difference between AG of both models. I have scrutinized it fully. It is just that nothing about them supports your ridiculous witterings of whites being destroyed or other factless caricatures you've come up with in the past.

NCX said:
Aggressive AG coating is the equivalent to getting in a car and looking through a windshield which has been through a sand storm on a nice bright day VS semi-gloss/glossy coating.
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Classic bad analogy.
 
Whoisthisreally said:
It is just that nothing about them supports your ridiculous witterings of whites being destroyed or other factless caricatures you've come up with in the past.
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The sole reason I RMAed my DELL was because I could literally see colors "dancing" on the screen whenever I had a white background. If that isn't "destroying whites", what is it? Pelting pastels? :p
 
Ashok0 said:
I really fail to comprehend why people are even arguing here. IPS monitors have very glittery crystalline "whites". That is a fact. Whether or not someone finds it bearable is subjective, but whites do look radically different compared to a CRT or mildly coated matte monitor. The fact that professional artists are FORCED to use choose between a harsh AG display or a glossy Apple display is completely irrelevant to the discussion. Many people would like to buy a 2560x1440 or 2560x1600 matte computer monitor with backlighting like the DELL U2711 and U3011 and clean whites of the Samsung SA850. Such a product does not exist. The display industry really sucks. :(
Click to expand...

"Many" people is also subjective. If you are talking about members on this forum, yes then a good number would prefer it. If you are talking about NEC, Dell, and HP's total customer base, this forum represents about .00001% of users who get annoyed by the crystalline effect. Have you ever heard someone in real life mention such a thing? Didn't think so.
 
Here is a review of one of the main AG culprits by someone who is unexposed to this forum's AG narrative:

http://www.colorwiki.com/wiki/NEC_PA271W_Review

It is worth mentioning that while this screen has a non-glare, matte-type finish - the mere size of it means that a viewer will likely see some "mirroring" of the ambient light in the room. In other words, it's such a big screen that there's bound to be some reflection from something behind or around you - since there's no way your body is going to be able to block it. If you are sitting three feet from the screen, the distance from end to end means that you are going to be viewing the edges of the screen at a sharper angle than if you were looking at a smaller monitor. I bring all this up merely to point out that for very large screens, there is all the more need for a quality screen with a good viewing angle. The PA271W handles this well.
Click to expand...
 
Whoisthisreally said:
I can see the difference between AG of both models. I have scrutinized it fully.
Click to expand...

NCX said:
The people saying the coating is fine are stuck with what they have or don't notice (ignorance is bliss).
Click to expand...

Whoisthisreally said:
Can't confirm this on my Dells.
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NCX said:
The people saying the coating is fine are stuck with what they have or don't notice (ignorance is bliss).
Click to expand...

Whoisthisreally said:
http://www.colorwiki.com/wiki/NEC_PA271W_Review[/URL]
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Except we all know that it is not fine. Even [H]'s resident "reference," 2490 and IPS lover surprisingly admits that it is a problem.
 
I've used the IPS236V and a few LG TN's with aggressive AG. The dirty+grainy effect is noticeable on Samsung TN's which use medium AG compared to light AG. Not even light AG can produce proper whites+light colors without grain compared to a CRT or glossy display.
 
NCX said:
Not even light AG can produce proper whites+light colors without grain compared to a CRT or glossy display.
Click to expand...

I put it to you that surface effects are not a parameter of white tone, therefore glare type monitors do not produce a more legitimate or 'proper' white.
 
alienate said:
"Many" people is also subjective. If you are talking about members on this forum, yes then a good number would prefer it. If you are talking about NEC, Dell, and HP's total customer base, this forum represents about .00001% of users who get annoyed by the crystalline effect. Have you ever heard someone in real life mention such a thing? Didn't think so.
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Noway dude, if people could see the different in the store between ag and glossy way many people would prefer glossy, no doubt.

Also user reviews in my country biggest retailer have many people complaining about the coating.
 
alienate said:
"Many" people is also subjective. If you are talking about members on this forum, yes then a good number would prefer it. If you are talking about NEC, Dell, and HP's total customer base, this forum represents about .00001% of users who get annoyed by the crystalline effect. Have you ever heard someone in real life mention such a thing? Didn't think so.
Click to expand...

Agreed to some extent. I just think that the few, the loud, the proud anti-AG marines are talking to the wrong group: Find LG displays' e-mails and phone numbers and bother THEM.

The other thing no one speaks about, is the further back you move, the AG coating also becomes less apparent. For a 27" with the tight dot pitch and Windows' limited scaling capabilities, I can see why people complain. They have to sit closer.

NCX said:
I've used the IPS236V and a few LG TN's with aggressive AG. The dirty+grainy effect is noticeable on Samsung TN's which use medium AG compared to light AG. Not even light AG can produce proper whites+light colors without grain compared to a CRT or glossy display.
Click to expand...

NCX you were good until the green part ended and red began. Of course an AG screen can produce proper whites. That's just silly. It's colors that can sometimes show less saturation and vibrance.

mmaker said:
Parameter or not, ofcourse a coating like this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42236618@N07/4672028113/in/photostream/

will make the perception of the colors and whatnot totally different!?!? :O
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I don't know, will it? And if so, why or why not? If the AG layer does not affect color temperature when light passes through it, does not affect anything. People whine about colors being less vibrant, and that can be true to some small extent because glossy only reflects light, while AG refracts it to some extent, and there is a bit of hazing effect. I prefer this to having to work in utter darkness. I'm mediterranean, I need sun.

Big deal. See point above. You know who to call or e-mail.
 
Ashok0 said:
.. but what I find remarkable is that in the year 2011, Pro monitors lack the clarity of displays that existed 10 years ago. Granted my old NEC CRT ...
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Because you are part of small minority that is obsessed with the coating. Most people don't see it that way.

When our division slowly switched from 21" Trinitrons to HP 2065 (IPS screens), the only complaints were from people still on CRT. Everyone could see how much sharper small text was on the LCDs (both ~20", both running 1600x1200) and small sharp text to fit lots of it onscreen is very important to programmers.

Zero complaints about loss of clarity. Reality is the opposite to that.

I was running a 21" Trinitron at home as well, to which I added a 17" LCD and again, it was so much sharper it was startling. I really couldn't stand to use the Trinitron anymore because it paled in comparison to the sharpness of the cheap LCD.

Soon the Trinitron at home was replaced by my NEC 24" LCD. For the first couple of weeks it was like a drug, it was so sharp, crisp and clear that I wanted to look at anything on that screen (still had the Trinitron at work then), it was like magic. Everything (games/photos/web/work) I looked at felt like a revelation in those early days. My only disappointment was a photo gallery I had worked on with CRT, was now revealed to be over-sharpened. Artifacts were now visible that I simply couldn't see with CRT.

So a far cry from your supposed "lack the clarity" when switching from CRT to LCD, myself and everyone I encounter IRL report the exact opposite, massive improvement is sharpness, detail, and crispness when switching from CRT to matte LCDs.

It is only online, where tiny minorities meet up and reinforce their obsessions, that this seems to be such a terrible bane.
 
Snowdog said:
It is only online, where tiny minorities meet up and reinforce their obsessions, that this seems to be such a terrible bane.
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C'mon man... you act like every PC user has an aggressive AG monitor and people who complain are some tiny minority of the entire PC base. VERY few people buy $800+ IPS monitors period. The majority of the PC customer base buys cheap TN monitors which typically have very mild AG. I've been using PCs since 1988, and the DELL U3011 was the first aggressively coated AG computer monitor I had ever seen. Prior to 2010, I honestly had no idea monitors even existed with such strong coatings. Only tiny minorities even use IPS displays period and are even aware aggressive AG even exists, and a fraction of those users flat out do not like all the added noise that IPS displays exhibit versus older monitors.

alienate said:
Have you ever heard someone in real life mention such a thing? Didn't think so.
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Actually, I do know a couple people IRL who aren't [H] marines and hate IPS monitors. So much for that theory.
 
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Ashok0 said:
C'mon man... you act like every PC user has an aggressive AG monitor and people who complain are some tiny minority of the entire PC base.
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Because my workplace converted directly from CRT to IPS screens as I told you in my post above, I have a large (for real life) group that I was in direct contact with while this happened.

So my IRL contact with LCD users is actually predominantly IPS screens because of this.

Again, there was nothing but love for the new matte IPS LCD when switching from Trinitron CRT.

Directly contradicting your claims of loss of clarity, everyone was in love with how sharp/crisp they were compared to the CRTs.

In real life, even with strong matte coatings on IPS screens, only an extreme minority have a problem with the coating.
 
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Snowdog,

That isn't even relevant to my post. I agree 100% that IPS displays are incredibly sharp and crisp. Perhaps I shouldn't have stated that IPS displays cause a "loss in clarity", but it is a fact that visually they do DIFFER from other monitors. It's basic elementary school science. Light passes through a textured surface of an aggressive AG coating differently from a smoother surface of a typical TN display. Some people may like the effect, some people may hate it, some people may be indifferent --- visually it looks DIFFERENT.

The employees in your office found the IPS displays visually satisfactory. That's fine. And all of my casual non-techie friends IRL that have been to Apple stores have unanimously hated the AG coated Apple LED Cinema Display 30". Apparently, some consumers find the coating problematic.

That being said, my point was that most consumers do not use IPS displays, nor have they even seen an aggressively AG coated monitor. In real life I agree that coating is actually NOT a problem for "most people", because "most people" do not use IPS monitors period. It's like arguing that outside of an extreme minority, "most people" don't have an issue with a hypothetically contentious issue with Ferraris, despite that fact that most normal people have probably never even driven a Ferrari.
 
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Ashok0 said:
Snowdog,

That being said, my point was that most consumers do not use IPS displays, nor have they even seen an aggressively AG coated monitor. In real life I agree that coating is actually NOT a problem for "most people", because "most people" do not use IPS monitors period. It's like arguing that outside of an extreme minority, "most people" don't have an issue with a hypothetically contentious issue with Ferraris, despite that fact that most normal people have probably never even driven a Ferrari.
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Hence why my post is relevant. My office switched to all IPS, so the sample in this case of IPS was 100% and yet still no one had any issues.

I suspect if you were working with us, you have asked to keep your Trinitron.

You have to realize that your reaction to the AG coating is the exception and not the norm.
 
Don't you find it at least somewhat paculiar that almost every single complaint about IPS monitors always happens to revolve around the exact same single issue? If you search any forum for a post regarding coating... you can be guaranteed the topic revolves specifically around an IPS monitor using an LG panel. And it's not just here at [H]forum, I've been to many forums where users have commented on buying an SA850 to avoid LG's horrible coating. Overclockers, OCAU, OverclockersUK, Macrumors, I've seen lots of negative comments on AG coating. I suspose most of those posters don't work at your office though, so their opinions clearly don't count.
 
Ashok0 said:
Don't you find it at least somewhat paculiar that almost every single complaint about IPS monitors always happens to revolve around the exact same single issue?
Click to expand...

I didn't say that it does not exist, just that people that have this reaction are the minority.

They aren't just a minority because most people have never seen an IPS screen. They are a minority even when everyone is given an IPS screen as in my office.

With 2 Billion people online, even thousands of people complaining IPS matte coating, is an extremely tiny minority.

FWIW I see a lot more individuals complaining about IPS glow, backlight bleed, poor contrast, than AG coating.

Note that I said individuals. Because you (and NCX) complain more often about AG coating than the next 10 people combined complain about anything else.
 
10e said:
NCX you were good until the green part ended and red began. Of course an AG screen can produce proper whites. That's just silly. It's colors that can sometimes show less saturation and vibrance.
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Not w/o sparkle/grain. I sit <2ft from a monitor with light AG every day and the sparkle is always visible.


Snowdog said:
Note that I said individuals. Because you (and NCX) complain more often about AG coating than the next 10 people combined complain about anything else.
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People should be warned should they not? After using a CRT for a few months this year I find the AG always visible and annoying. IPS glow/bleeding can vary quite a bit between units, especially this year. Look at some of the reviews and the differences between LG IPS panels can be massive (2001:1 PRAD.de vs 800:1 TFT Central contrast on the Asus ML239h) while the AG is always guaranteed to be aggressive.
 
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People should be warned should they not?
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Warned in the appropriate measure, perhaps? I've seen the U2711's AG coating, and it is indeed quite strong. I am guessing, however, that part of the reason I saw it was because I was LOOKING for it, and without having known about it, and given a week or so to adjust to the monitor, I never would have seen it, nor notice it. Previous to reading this forum, I never even imagined that this issue even existed.

Not to say a better AG coating isn't welcome. But to use it as a deal breaker is, in my opinion, absurd. All else being equal, a monitor with less graininess is preferable to one with more graininess. But when the trade-offs mean a sparkle that I notice for 5 seconds whenever focus on seeing it when I read an AG complaint vs much better picture quality compared to every other monitor I have (including all the PVA and CRT monitors we have at work), then I know what I prefer.

Currently using a pair of U2311h's at work, and despite the alledgedly very aggressive coating on all IPS panels, I don't notice it. The AG coating is no worse than the TN panel I use at home. It's more noticeable at work, definitely, but that's because my TN sucks so badly that the AG issue is a non-issue next to the other faults it has.

Not w/o sparkle/grain. I sit <2ft from a monitor with light AG every day and the sparkle is always visible.
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I sit < 2 ft away from my monitor with "aggressive" AG coating every day, and the sparkle is almost always invisible. And it's only almost always because every so often I come into these threads and read complaints about AG coatings, and check my monitor quickly and see it. Yes, sparkle bothers me. No, my IPS monitors do not bother me. I would say for me, the complaints about AG coating have been far more detrimental than beneficial to my experience with monitors in general.
 
kevinsbane said:
The AG coating is no worse than the TN panel I use at home. It's more noticeable at work, definitely, but that's because my TN sucks so badly that the AG issue is a non-issue next to the other faults it has.
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I agree totally. When you look at the gamma shift and viewing angles of any TN panel then the AG issue becomes nill.
 
Can we keep discussions of IPS vs VA and AG coatings somewhere else please. This thread is solely for Samsung SA850.

Please take off-topic discussions somewhere else.
 
Has anyone ordered the S27A850D and not had a backlight issue? I'm on my 2nd one and I'm thinking I should exchange it for another. My first one had less backlight bleed, but had dust spots embedded in the screen.
 
My second monitor arrived today, so I now have both 24" and 27" SA50's.

I am very satisfied with both. Minor backlight bleed on the 24", none on the 27". I'll post pics soon.
 
Ashok0 said:
The sole reason I RMAed my DELL was because I could literally see colors "dancing" on the screen whenever I had a white background. If that isn't "destroying whites", what is it? Pelting pastels? :p
Click to expand...

a broken panel
weed

your eyes having problems
 
NCX said:
Not w/o sparkle/grain. I sit <2ft from a monitor with light AG every day and the sparkle is always visible.




People should be warned should they not? After using a CRT for a few months this year I find the AG always visible and annoying. IPS glow/bleeding can vary quite a bit between units, especially this year. Look at some of the reviews and the differences between LG IPS panels can be massive (2001:1 PRAD.de vs 800:1 TFT Central contrast on the Asus ML239h) while the AG is always guaranteed to be aggressive.
Click to expand...

My issue with all this, is that A) You and Ashok0 seem to invade every thread discussing any LG IPS panel with this same edict, and B) You assume that all LG IPS panels are the same.

Some are worse than others.

Either way, I'd say this isn't the thread to discuss it, as the Samsung PLS panels don't suffer from this over-hyped flaw so we should just leave it out of here going forward.
 
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