Samsung new PVA screens

My observations are based on studying these technologies. IPS cells have a smaller aperture because of the need for two electrodes in each cell. These electrodes block some of the light and also reflect some of it. If you want the evidence, you can read it at:

http://www.barco.com/barcoview/downloads/An_Introduction_to_IPS_pro_LCD_Technology.pdf

Read Pages 10 and 14. The paper talks explicitly about the need for brighter backlights for IPS due to the smaller cell aperture.

The paper also mentions the lower contrast ratio resulting from this property of IPS.

By the way, the higher the resolution of the panel per given size, the worse this problem gets.

Visualguy, unfortunately you have neglected my friendly advice...

I've looked at this paper.
Visualguy, you have surpassed yourself.
What you quote is a part of old history of IPS. Modern IPS is described in the same paper: cell aperture is large, pixel structure is different, black is much deeper, contrast ratio is doubled.
Don't you know that?
Do you post this deliberately or you really don't understand what you post?
Have you seen this? This is from the review of the monitor you have...
What dimention do you live in?
You don't know what panel is in your own monitor and come here to post ridiculous statements and "educate" others.
This is something!
Sorry about that.
 
If I had a decent cam I would show you pics of mine.

Basically my VA I can stand up and to the side and black stays black, I have been watching movies in bed on it for 2 years below the screen and to the side with no obvious distortion.

I am guessing your IPS has a a polarizer thing fitted? mine doesnt.

Yes, mine has a polarizer.

Don't you have this viewsonic?
http://www.lesnumeriques.com/duels.php?ty=6&ma1=52&mo1=95&p1=969&ma2=41&mo2=67&p2=730&ph=8

Same washout I have seen on every VA panel since forever.
 
This thread started out asking when Samsung is going to release new PVA screens.
Please answer the question........:eek:
 
Yes, mine has a polarizer.

Don't you have this viewsonic?
http://www.lesnumeriques.com/duels.php?ty=6&ma1=52&mo1=95&p1=969&ma2=41&mo2=67&p2=730&ph=8

Same washout I have seen on every VA panel since forever.

yes thats my screen.

If you think that has bad washout, then you would hate my IPS screen as its worse.

Now what I can tell you with my naked eye if I standup and look at it from angle black looks black it doesnt look grey/silver.

If I do the same on my IPS black starts to looks silvery/grey unless I stand away at distance.

These are facts with my naked eyes.

Now another thing since we have brought up digital versus site, black levels.

2 IPS monitor I could find, 1 normal IPS and 1 e-IPS.

contrast ratios.
625:1 and 630:1 respectively
black levels
0.32 and 0.33 respectively

the 2 screens both dells
http://www.digitalversus.com/duels.php?ty=6&ma1=88&mo1=413&p1=3936&ma2=88&mo2=477&p2=4862&ph=13
3008wfp and 2209wa

They dont have the black levels and contrast ratio for my screen listed there only so had to get other VA and TN stats (even TN is beating IPS on black levels according to this site).

http://www.digitalversus.com/duels.php?ty=6&ma1=88&mo1=342&p1=3161&ma2=36&ph=13

This one a dell 2408WFP PVA and a samsung 2494HM TN
contrast ratios.
927:1 and 1068:1 respectively
black levels
0.22 and 0.19 respectively

My guess is for some reason VA panels come out bad on cameras because unless I have some eye defect I do not get blacks turning to grey at angle on my VA panel. This is why I dont trust pictures. I will try and take a pic of my monitors using a camera at angle but I only have a mobile phone camera not a proper one.

I dont hate my IPS screen it is nice, nowhere near as bad as a TN and the black turning to silver is only apperent on very dark colours even something like a dark red wont change, and only noticeable when close to screen. But I am not the only one to notice this black to silver that doesnt occur on a VA panel, other people like myself who have a VA and have gone to IPS have posted the same experiences in the dell 2209wa thread. Now it seems if a IPS screen has a polarizer then it doesnt get the silver affect at angle? so then the only weakness for the IPS is just a poor black level.
 
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http://reviews.cnet.com/lcd-monitors/dell-ultrasharp-3008wfp/4505-3174_7-32815166.html
"color performance with movies was extremely lacking"
"Also, its black levels were disappointing"
"we recommend the cheaper, better performing Gateway monitor" (Gateway=s-pva)
"we saw a noticeable amount of backlight bleed through at the top center of the screen." This IS the Super IPS screen right?
"One extra thing we noticed was that the display runs very hot when left on for awhile. In particular, the top back of the display singed my arm a few times. "

http://reviews.dell.com/2341/223-4890/reviews.htm
Cons
"1. Yes, it’s very expensive. 2. It does suffer from some bad backlighting near the top edge of the screen. The LCD panel seal does not apply enough pressure to the screen which in turn causes the top backlighting to look uneven. This can be very distracting especially when watching movies with a lot of darkness in them. 3. The screen gets very hot. Especially the top of it. So hot in fact that it will make it uncomfortable to touch. Your room should never need any additional heating as long as you have this monitor."


http://www.behardware.com/articles/661-3/the-new-30-inch-monitors-dell-and-samsung.html
"Besides the graph's results, in practice this means more accurate colors for Samsung in all areas of the monitor"

"IPS technology is the best for viewing angles. They aren't perfect, contrast is bit reduced at 90° but at 50° the results, as shown in the picture, are quite convincing and almost perfect.

"Samsung's PVA monitor is a little less gifted in this area. Vertical viewing angles are smaller and a bit washed out compared to Dell's IPS. Nevertheless, this result is already excellent and not many of you will be dissatisfied." (note the IPS is BETTER at viewing angles, but the PVA is very close. Yet in contrast, the IPS is worse, and is not "close")

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2071730,00.asp
"The panel also did an outstanding job of displaying light and dark shades of gray on the DisplayMate (www.displaymate.com) tests—even at the extreme ends of the spectrum—and color quality was equally impressive, with no noticeable tinting. Colors scaled evenly from dark to light, and there was no trace of backlight bleeding or stuck pixels. Imaging professionals will love this monitor's ability to show fine detail in photos, and an excellent 178-degree viewing angle means you can watch movies with a few friends without sacrificing image quality."

http://www.anandtech.com/displays/showdoc.aspx?i=2950&p=5
"Anyone who is seriously concerned about accurate colors is going to want to view pretty much any display from a direct front angle, and that tends to be the most comfortable position as well. That's one of the reasons we don't really worry too much about viewing angles. However, some people might work in environments where off-angle viewing is more important, so it's not entirely meaningless"

If the data you present has opposing data from other reviewers, then both data represent opinions. Those aren't facts. Folks have stated here that they have stared at multiple iterations of each variety of display side by side, and have preferred one or the other. Neither one is instantly superior. That's simply not a "fact" despite your claims. PVA screens suffer from lag more than IPS due to acceleration techniques generally. But the 305T tests very well in this regard. So clearly that's not true in all cases. IPS panels have better color reproduction, but several reviews found the out of the box color to be very bad on the 3008. So clearly that's not a cut and dry choice either. I don't think everyone hates what you have to say, but that you say it as if there were no variations, no screens that didn't make good QA (a weakness of IPS per many review commentaries, but who knows if they know this for sure or are just guessing). Viewing angles have dramatically improved on VA and contrast has improved a great deal on IPS. But IPS is still weaker, generally in this and VA is still weaker in angle viewing.

But the differences are small - not huge, not night and day superior, and for every screen you show that has a flaw, there are examples out there of the counter. At the end of the day, folks who have used BOTH and have looked at BOTH (as you have it seems) have an opinion to render on what they preferred and why. These opinions are valid and not nullified by papers you wish to cite, pictures you wish to show, or any of that.

So please do render your opinions. But remember there are counter opinions and that they are not "blind" or "incompetent" or "false".
 
yes thats my screen.
My guess is for some reason VA panels come out bad on cameras because unless I have some eye defect I do not get blacks turning to grey at angle on my VA panel. This is why I dont trust pictures. I will try and take a pic of my monitors using a camera at angle but I only have a mobile phone camera not a proper one.

So comparing your two screens(on something other than pure black):
http://www.digitalversus.com/duels.php?ty=6&ma1=41&mo1=67&p1=730&ma2=88&mo2=477&p2=4862&ph=8

I have owned an IPS with the white glow. I have owned TN, 2 PVA, 2 IPS (one with polarizer) as well as my Samsung MVA TV. I have examined tons more in shops. You can read my short negative review of my Dell 3007-HC that I sent back:
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1303691
Read this and you will see that merely being IPS is not enough to win my approval.

So I know all about the white glow and other issues with all panels. IMO the pictures do not lie and for me at least, pictures don't go far enough. Because I get weird parallax effects from PVA panels that is like looking at a 3d magic eye picture. Cause a lot of headache inducing eye fatigue.

The white glow which I have seen first hand, doesn't actually alter the basic picture the way that VA tech does. It is a mild white overlay, most noticable on black. VA shift on the other hand affect all colors, affect to varying amounts but it affects black the least. It alters the balance within the picture, drops midtone contrast hugely, changes which detail you see at various angles. You are only comparing the weak point of the IPS against the strong of the other.

The VA main shift occurs more and more as you get above black. Though black does shift as well, you just haven't seen anything better like my LCD.

If you want the best from your monitor especially comparing it to an older low brightness model, make sure you set your backlight on minimum, and find 10e settings/profile (unless you have your own calibrator). The default gamma curve on the 2209wa is a bit messed up.
 
Soooooo.... anyway.

Has anyone found out what makes a cPVA matrix different? From all the Chinese reviews with photos, I couldn't see any characteristic black crush or shift. So far the only thing I can get from the specs is 8ms, RTA, 30,000:1 contrast, and a new OSD menu.
 
You know Snowdog - a lot of people I've read who have PVA screens don't complain of headaches. Not saying you don't get them (I get migraines myself) but it might not be the PVA screen doing it.
 
Anemone,

I know exaclty what the issue is. I never claimed others would get headaches and obviously anyone with a problem with their screen would get rid of them like I did.

Only some very small percentage notice the odd fake 3d effect from the shift affecting each eye differently and even less are bothered by it. Unfortunately I am part of that group. For me it is to the point that I can't use VA screens as a computer monitor. I actually returned them and went TN for a year or so before getting my IPS.

I will agree that PVA looks better, but for me TN is actually better because it has no weird anomalies that make it completely aggravating to use.

I can tolerate the shift in my TV because I don't sit close enough to get the weird fake 3d issue. But I still don't like the washout it produces when I stand up, walk around, or sit at my computer of to the side and watch TV. In those instances it looks like garbage.

Lawless: What reviews? Links?
 
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About time that we get another non-tn srgb panel. As it is there are only two non-tn monitors that are not wide gamut - the afordable Dell 2209wa and the incredibly expensive NEC 2490wuxi. Oh and the HP Dreamcolor 2480zx but that's about twice the price of the NEC. For most the 2209wa is their only option. The extra resolution over the 2209wa is very nice.
 
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About time that we get another non-tn srgb panel. As it is there are only two non-tn monitors that are not wide gamut - the afordable Dell 2209wa and the incredibly expensive NEC 2490wuxi. Oh and the HP Dreamcolor 2480zx but that's about twice the price of the NEC. For most the 2209wa is their only option. The extra resolution over the 2209wa is very nice.

Not wide gamut:
NEC 2490WUXI H-IPS A-TW
NEC 24WMGX3 MVA
NEC 2190WUXi SA-SFT (a sort of IPS)
NEC 2190WUXp PVA
Gateway XHD3000 PVA
A bunch of Apples
Dell 2209wa

HP 2480zx is wide gamut.
 
Soooooo.... anyway.

Has anyone found out what makes a cPVA matrix different? From all the Chinese reviews with photos, I couldn't see any characteristic black crush or shift. So far the only thing I can get from the specs is 8ms, RTA, 30,000:1 contrast, and a new OSD menu.

Something to look at there is high CR (about 3000:1).
It requires further clarification, but it is already different from what we have now (up to 1300:1).
 
Something to look at there is high CR (about 3000:1).
It requires further clarification, but it is already different from what we have now (up to 1300:1).

Yeah; I've seen it called 'native' CR, so they make it sound like the real deal not the dynamic silliness etc. But that would be 2x better than anything else out there and I find it hard to believe ;-) Probably it's just yet another PR thing.

Also, some German sites report the availability by end of June :-( I wish they were out sooner. But let's hope they actually will show up in June...
 
I just read the review from page 4 (well as much as you can from translation). Note that they got an ANSI (AKA real static contrast) of 812. From what I can get from there testing they were got a full on/off contrast of around 2400, implying that some type of dynamic contrast going on, despite them shutting it off. Full on/off contrast it turning screen full white, measuring it, then full black and measuring it. If it is diffent than ANSI, there is some kind of Dynamic contrast happening. At least that is what I get out of reading the contrast test and numbers page in translation.

But there seems to be much to like here. The viewing angles do appear much improved over other PVA, It is standard gamut and it does have low power backlight and lets you turn it down very low.

It looks like a winner so far. Too bad it isn't 1200 pixels high match up with my NEC.
 
Yeah. What's up with this 16:9? It works well for 1 screen, but if you go for 2x monitor setup, that's a bit pointless. Anyway, don't really care either way. 16:9 would be nice because I plan to use the display with PS3 and my laptop.

It also looks like a winner to me! Don't know if I can hold off till end of June though; might just get the expensive but nice Eizo S2242W...
 
Found this review with a whole ton of pictures and comparison shots: http://product.pcpop.com/000165091/Picture.html

Too bad that's not in English. My google-fu yielded this from the front page http://product.pcpop.com/000165091/Index.html:

Samsung F2380 (SAMSUNG F2380)
Reference Price: 1999 yuan price reduction to remind [sic: ~$292USD so probably $300 MSRP]
Beijing businessmen Price: No Price
LCD Monitor Size: 23 inches
Resolution: 1920 × 1080
Response time: 8ms
Brightness: 300nits
Contrast: 3000:1 (dynamic 150000:1)
Interface type: D-Sub, DVI-D × 2
Panel Type: C-PVA
Screen ratio: 16:9

Looks like they put it heads up against some Dell monitor but I can't tell what one, anyone have any idea? The color uniformity looks decent, but with the movie comparisons the Dell looks to have better color reproduction. Be careful about which picture you're looking at, for some reason they switched monitor spots in a couple of the comparison shots so pay attention to the power LED (on the bottom right for Dell, Samsung has a weird light or reflection dead center on the bottom). Not sure if it's purely saturation/gamut or what, but those two panels couldn't possibly look more different. It's especially noticeable in the FF movie shots, it looks like the Samsung panel sends its frames through an extra bleach filter to take the colors out. On the other hand black levels do look pretty fantastic, check out the zebra and moon comparison shots.

I have high hopes for this panel because I really don't want to settle for another TN. Hopefully more reviews start popping up soon.
 
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http://product.pcpop.com/000165091/Picture/001195727.html

Viewing angles look excellent. I had a Samsung 971P that wasn't nearly this good, even though it was some type of PVA. Unfortunately the picture is way too bright and saturated to tell if there's any kind of color shifting. But for angles it looks as good as the S-IPS Dell 2007FP I'm working on right now.

It looks slightly better than average VA, but nothing spectacular:
http://product.pcpop.com/000165091/Picture/001195724.html
http://product.pcpop.com/000165091/Picture/001195725.html

There is significant contrast/color loss. Basically typical washout that I always see on VA panels. Not enough improvement to make IPS fans happy.

Looks like a nice standard gamut addition to the VA family.
 
do you view your monitors from like 10 feet to the side or something?

Are you new to this? Viewing angle image stability issues manifest sitting in a normal viewing position.

As I said this will be fine for a VA panel. VA fans who don't have issues with these quirks will have a great panel. That is most people.

But IPS fans like myself most likely bought them for the superior image stability. Looking at these images, they aren't up to IPS standards.
 
So comparing your two screens(on something other than pure black):
http://www.digitalversus.com/duels.php?ty=6&ma1=41&mo1=67&p1=730&ma2=88&mo2=477&p2=4862&ph=8

I have owned an IPS with the white glow. I have owned TN, 2 PVA, 2 IPS (one with polarizer) as well as my Samsung MVA TV. I have examined tons more in shops. You can read my short negative review of my Dell 3007-HC that I sent back:
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1303691
Read this and you will see that merely being IPS is not enough to win my approval.

So I know all about the white glow and other issues with all panels. IMO the pictures do not lie and for me at least, pictures don't go far enough. Because I get weird parallax effects from PVA panels that is like looking at a 3d magic eye picture. Cause a lot of headache inducing eye fatigue.

The white glow which I have seen first hand, doesn't actually alter the basic picture the way that VA tech does. It is a mild white overlay, most noticable on black. VA shift on the other hand affect all colors, affect to varying amounts but it affects black the least. It alters the balance within the picture, drops midtone contrast hugely, changes which detail you see at various angles. You are only comparing the weak point of the IPS against the strong of the other.

The VA main shift occurs more and more as you get above black. Though black does shift as well, you just haven't seen anything better like my LCD.

If you want the best from your monitor especially comparing it to an older low brightness model, make sure you set your backlight on minimum, and find 10e settings/profile (unless you have your own calibrator). The default gamma curve on the 2209wa is a bit messed up.

Brightness is on 3, black is as dark as can get, it wont go darker due to IPS tech limitations. But as I said to you before I am not saying VA beats IPS I am just saying I think the photos look very different to my real life experience and that black doesnt turn to grey at angle.

My VA screen if I look for it does have a very slught colour shift at angle, I dont notice it with normal use, green looks green, red looks red and of course black looks black. Now since I watch movies a lot on my screen and have black backgrounds a lot, I will obviously take black quality seriously. End of the day we do agree on it more or less as I have agreed that lighter colours look better on IPS, text is certianly clearer on IPS, my IPS has less lag than my VA so overall I am happier with my IPS screen. Personally I think depending on what the screen is used for I think there is only a small difference between IPS and VA and both of these have a large difference over TN. VA beats IPS for blacks even at angles and especially when the IPS has no polarizer, however blacks aside IPS seems to win on everything else.

If you someone who watches movies a lot then consider a VA over IPS otheriwse I would reccomend IPS over VA.

The colour shift affect on my VA is far less than the black to silver affect on the IPS, which is why I treat the latter as more serious. The black to silver I noticed during normal use, the colour shift I dont.

Lets stop this VA vs IPS debate now as we losing track of the thread on which is to compare this new cPVA panel to traditional PVA panels.
 
Are you new to this? Viewing angle image stability issues manifest sitting in a normal viewing position.

As I said this will be fine for a VA panel. VA fans who don't have issues with these quirks will have a great panel. That is most people.

But IPS fans like myself most likely bought them for the superior image stability. Looking at these images, they aren't up to IPS standards.

Myth
 
Are you new to this? Viewing angle image stability issues manifest sitting in a normal viewing position.

As I said this will be fine for a VA panel. VA fans who don't have issues with these quirks will have a great panel. That is most people.

But IPS fans like myself most likely bought them for the superior image stability. Looking at these images, they aren't up to IPS standards.

not really. it's all in your head.
 
So what I see is a myth. Ok sure.

I do not see the colour shift. It does exist, but I still do not see it. IPS glow I do not see either. Sometimes when you are critical, you begin to notice things that are not there (or your brain over-exaggerates things). Take it as advice, or as an insult. I do not care. Just know that not everyone see's the "flaws" that you do. And that's because with the advancement of each technology, each has improved a great deal, and those flaws are now very minor. IPS isn't the best, neither is MVA(or any PVA), they just are.

On topic, that review makes the new Samsung panels look very promising, hopefully very competitive to e-ips.
 
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IPS technically cannot create as dark a black as VA panels.

The harsh part is that we have bantered about high and low quality panels in discussion. And no one doubts (but few remember as we are discussing) that a great panel of one variety beats a crummy one of the other variety even in it's "superior" domain if the crummy panel just wasn't made up to snuff.

The other note is that panels of all varieties have improved by huge margins over the past few years (3-4 years). Quality has improved, bad pixels are very few when they used to be a given, and specifications have improved as has color calibration from the factory.
 
It seems F2380 showed up on Samsung.de:
http://monitor.samsung.de/produkte/detail2_specs.aspx?guid=d3b7c0e5-4bd2-4ee7-bcdf-18126a523cce

And is also listed on Amazon.de:
http://www.amazon.de/Samsung-F2380-...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=ce-de&qid=1243117519&sr=8-1

I live in Switzerland and there's no separate Amazon here; Amazon.ch sends you to Amazon.de; unfortunately you can't buy most of the stuff :S Seems like Germans will get their hands on this screen first. I wonder if they make it for the 19th May as listed on Amazon...
 
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Samsung = overrated.

What isn't :p

I don't know if its any measure of quality, but I have 3 old 17" displays in my office and I think the Samsung is the best; others (HP, Eizo) are a bit dim and colours don't look too well...
 
Samsung = overrated.

You should not pay attention to Samsung XL series. They were priced thousands but never rated as high quality products. That was self-grotesque (like VW Limo) and technically total failure.
They seem to be discontinued now.
IMHO the only valuable model in their line is 275T+. It's just a bit overpriced, has limited availability and still no decent reviews, no high rating (it probably may deserve).
All the rest are countless lower end models (including their 30" attempt) that are priced and rated accordingly.
 
You should not pay attention to Samsung XL series. They were priced thousands but never rated as high quality products. That was self-grotesque (like VW Limo) and technically total failure.
They seem to be discontinued now.
IMHO the only valuable model in their line is 275T+. It's just a bit overpriced, has limited availability and still no decent reviews, no high rating (it probably may deserve).
All the rest are countless lower end models (including their 30" attempt) that are priced and rated accordingly.

http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/monitors/2008/08/18/samsung-syncmaster-xl30/4
8/10 score with a 10/10 on imagine quality for the XL30


305T reviews
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2071730,00.asp
http://www.cnet.com.au/samsung-syncmaster-305t-339278327.htm (8.8 rating)
http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/product/29892/review/syncmaster_305t_black_30.html
http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/foru...-syncmaster-305t-30-lcd-monitor-review-8.html

All positive reviews from what I can see...
 
Omerta, grocery store style reviews have little value themselves.
XLs had intrinsic PVA issues plus LED backlight prematurity issues plus helpless calibration solution by Samsung. Altogether for astronomical price.

For 305T - reviews are positive because the monitor is positive for it's level.
Again a bunch of grocery store level "reviews" able to quote manufacturer's specs at most. One of them managed to attach a couple of pictures though ...
 
Omerta, grocery store style reviews have little value themselves.
XLs had intrinsic PVA issues plus LED backlight prematurity issues plus helpless calibration solution by Samsung. Altogether for astronomical price.

For 305T - reviews are positive because the monitor is positive for it's level.
Again a bunch of grocery store level "reviews" able to quote manufacturer's specs at most. One of them managed to attach a couple of pictures though ...

Those reviews are targeted at people who aren't picky about everything in their monitor. Those reviews are MORE than enough for the average person. Obviously, for someone like you, you'd want something more technical, but most people do not care...
 
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