Samsung launched their CFG70 144Hz HDR FreeSync monitors

linuxdude9 said:
I saw a video on Youtube of this monitor exhibiting blue/purple trails with camera panning in Counter-Strike Go. Anyone else noticed this?
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This is a confirmed issue. Depending on what is on screen it could be subtle or obvious. Only happens in motion. I did not notice it a lot. Most likely an aggressive overdrive. Something Samsung could fix if people report it to them.
 
I have not experienced this issue. I honestly have grown to really like this screen. It will be my primary.
 
tftcentral usually sticks with "normal" overdrive on most monitors. High/extreme overdrive can cause that kind of issue so it's generally considered a bad idea to use it at all on any monitor since it is over-aggressive and results in overshoot. Some of the previous gen of VA gaming screens were only tight up to 120hz in regard to blur reduction as well, then they'd start losing their clarity again vs their VA response time limitation/ghosting. If that were the case (more likely with cs:go due to overabundance of frame rate too), you could try capping your game's frame rate to 120hz in your nvidia drivers on a game-by-game basis or globally.

You also have to consider that youtube videos are filmed using a camera which has it's own bias, then youtube's biases (compression, frame rate, maybe even resolution), and finally the display you are watching it on has it's own bias. That is, it's possible that the camera recording the video may not have been able to keep up with the action speed and blurred, and the monitor you are watching it on could blur high motion objects too. I haven't seen the video though so can't comment on trails in it nor whether the person who recorded it was using extreme/over-aggressive max overdrive settings.
 
I have seen the issue first hand and it sadly happens on all modes "Standard", "Faster", "Fastest".
 
I'd try capping to 120fps-hz. The previous gen of VA gaming monitors (200hz) would start ghosting/overshooting again above 120hz. CS:GO is otherwise probably at 144fps-hz constantly because it's so easy to render, especially at 1080p.

Acer Predator Z35 Review TFT central

We felt the screen was ok at up to around 100 - 120Hz without the overshoot becoming distracting and noticeable. At these levels there was little excess blurring or smearing introduced due to some slow pixel changes in most cases, although some scenes showed problems. The overshoot was kept at fairly low levels and not really a problem though up to 120Hz. Sadly we felt the panel was not capable of achieving low enough response times to reliably support anything higher, including the 144Hz native maximum refresh rate, and the overclocked range from 160 - 200Hz. The smearing becomes more obvious and the overdrive impulse starts to get applied too aggressively to try and keep up, and so the resulting overshoot is a big problem. You might want to experiment with different settings above 120Hz perhaps, although we felt the performance at 120Hz gave a better overall appearance.
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It's possible. Sucks if it is really that bad. The only video I could find was the iceworld cs:go level which is grey on grey with black characters which might exacerbate the issue. These are VA screens so the response time is never going to match a TN. Hopefully all of the other samsung and AUO VA screens will be decently fast. I'm not expecting TN response times. Looking forward to tftcentral reviews.

More from the z35 review:
The OD extreme mode is predictably too aggressive with the overdrive impulse and so again anything above 60Hz isn't really usable. Not for blurring and smearing reasons, but for the obvious overshoot and dark trailing. This leaves us with OD normal mode which is better thankfully. However the response times in certain cases were very slow, and overall they were not on par with the levels you can reliably achieve from TN Film and modern high refresh IPS panels. Some transitions were very slow and problematic and so in some colour transitions you can see excess smearing. In other cases the image was clearer. This is fairly typical of VA panels to be honest. We felt that once you get above 120Hz the overshoot becomes a bit too noticeable and so along with some enhanced smearing we felt the higher refresh rate range was a disappointment. We don't think it's Acer's fault either. You can tell from the OD extreme mode that the overdrive circuit they've applied isn't being too conservative. The VA panel just doesn't quite seem to be fast enough overall to keep up with the refresh rate it supports and this is down to AU Optronics. We haven't tested the BenQ XR3501 which is the other 35" screen using this same panel (144Hz max), but we gather that it seems to have disappeared from supply while BenQ perhaps look at similar issues. We will seek some further feedback from BenQ if we can on that. So to summarise, stick with OD normal but the response times aren't as fast as we'd like and in our opinion not really sufficient to support refresh rates above ~120Hz reliably.
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EDIT: Are you talking about this happening in the backlight strobe mode only? What about the variable hz mode?
 
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It happens if strobe is on or off. Strobe is on with settings "Faster" and "Fastest". "Standard" is the only setting with no strobe.

The Foris FG2421 does not have this purple issue. On the Samsung is most likely an aggressive overdrive.
 
I'm looking for a 32"-36" 4k 120hz version.....prefer OLED but would not kick VA out of bed. They could have made one of these, even if it took MST....and they would have been printing money like a printing press from all the sales.
 
It was interesting to hear your take on it, thanks. It was a good overview. The benefit of attempts at showing the purple trail at 144hz rate and black levels in a youtube video passing through the camera bia, youtube bias, and the viewer's own monitor limitations and bias are questionable but hearing your opinions as you ran through the examples was good. Still camera shots of motion or pursuit camera stills might show the purple overshoot/ghost fault better but aren't as easy to compose. Even if (when) the main critique of the trail is proven true (by review sites like tftcentral) for this particular model, the samsung has variable hz while the eizo does not, and the quantum dot apparently has more pop. Going forward, the other models of this panel tech will have much higher resolution and larger physical screen sizes plus the variable hz so the trade-offs will become even greater. The contrast level will always be greater on the eizo unfortunately, but 2600 or more to 1 and .04 to .05 black depth is still ~3 times or more than what a tn or ips can do. In the end you did decide to keep it gives me some faith in the monitor line for the higher resolution ones I'm interested in. I am holding out hope for a g-sync model of the later monitors as well, which you also brought up a few times.
 
I would agree that the contrast is realistically between 2500-3000. Whereas the EIZO is just much higher, so it was going to always have better blacks. But the Samsung is still one of the best there. The Samsung clearly has colors that pop more, but not to the point where it is oversaturation.

I can look past the purple issue, but it definitely is there. But most of the time you won't notice it. And if Samsung can fix it. That's a bonus.

I think more so one has to decide if they want a 1080p screen or not. Variable refresh is nice, but I don't think people should base their monitor buy on if it has FreeSync or G-Sync. With a good system spec and higher refresh rate monitor, you limit how much you need variable refresh rate, IMHO. We are at the point where I think people can't really say anymore VA isn't fast enough. it clearly can be, and with the strobe and variable refresh that all helps. VA still blows IPS and TN out of the water when it comes to image quality. VA isn't going anywhere, in fact I think you will continue to see it more.
 
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elvn said:
It was interesting to hear your take on it, thanks. It was a good overview. The benefit of attempts at showing the purple trail at 144hz rate and black levels in a youtube video passing through the camera bia, youtube bias, and the viewer's own monitor limitations and bias are questionable but hearing your opinions as you ran through the examples was good. Still camera shots of motion or pursuit camera stills might show the purple overshoot/ghost fault better but aren't as easy to compose. Even if (when) the main critique of the trail is proven true (by review sites like tftcentral) for this particular model, the samsung has variable hz while the eizo does not, and the quantum dot apparently has more pop. Going forward, the other models of this panel tech will have much higher resolution and larger physical screen sizes plus the variable hz so the trade-offs will become even greater. The contrast level will always be greater on the eizo unfortunately, but 2600 or more to 1 and .04 to .05 black depth is still ~3 times or more than what a tn or ips can do. In the end you did decide to keep it gives me some faith in the monitor line for the higher resolution ones I'm interested in. I am holding out hope for a g-sync model of the later monitors as well, which you also brought up a few times.
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The purple haze is as real as it gets. Racerprose simply didn't find a proper spot to look for it, but it is there.



There is another one but this will suffice.
 
What's your average frame rate in bf1? In csgo the framerate likely never dips below 144fps so could be pushing the limits of the overdrive implementation and the panel's response time more. Just curious.
 
Anybody see any realistic ETA on the CF791? I cancelled my pre-order with B&H and went with Samsung direct instead as they had the 10% discount going on....kinda wondering when we will see that sucker as watching cam whores on my S2417DG is a bit underwhelming while I try to work :)
 
elvn said:
What's your average frame rate in bf1? In csgo the framerate likely never dips below 144fps so could be pushing the limits of the overdrive implementation and the panel's response time more. Just curious.
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My Specs:
i7 2600k @ 4.9ghz
980ti @ 1500mhz

With my highly advised custom competitive edge ultra sharp graphics config consisting of running:

1080p w/ 120% resolution scale
1st 3 settings set as Ultra, Ultra, Medium
The rest all on Low
FXAA High


I get a pretty solid 120-144fps on almost all maps.

People have said to run Mesh on Ultra to draw enemies at really long distances, but from my testing running it on Low actually doesn't effect the enemy draw distance near as much as it did in BF4, only the vegetation and buildings are not being drawn. Running it on Low is a cheap way to see enemies easier, kinda like hacking since they think they are behind cover, but you can clearly see them. What it comes down to is that I just prefer a clean very sharp image w/o alot of distracting eye candy and vegetation.
 
It seems like interest in this monitor died quickly. I see it is slowly becoming available here in Canada but is fairly pricey, those that have the monitor are you happy with it? What I really want is the bigger brother CF791 but I can't justify the cost of it yet so the CFG70 might have to work. Otherwise I might just go cheap 24" TN 144hz but I have a feeling I would prefer the Quantum Dot Samsung.
 
Are there any hard numbers on what kind of input lag you'd get with this panel? I currently have an LG 23ET83V for gaming (DisplayLag.com claims it only has an input lag of 10ms, but it feels higher than that to me), and I'm not able to play games that require precise timing on it (though a lot of them work fine). Will I have to go all the way down to TN in order to eliminate the input lag problem, or is this potentially a good compromise?

I've really been hoping for a fast VA panel, because I'm not liking the tradeoffs involved in TN "gaming" monitors. I sometimes think I'd almost rather just avoid all games that require precise timing than have to be stuck with TN panels in 2017.
 
I only saw Prad.de reviewing the Predator Z271 which should use the same panel. Inputlag there is ~15ms in 60hz mode and ~8ms in 144hz if you use medium overdrive.
 
Pcmonitors.info measured 4.14ms with SMTT 2.0 and enabling strobing had no effect on input lag.
Displaylag use the Leo Bodnar tester and 10ms is close to the lowest limit of the middle bar results, meaning input lag should be very low.
So it might not be the lag that is causing your precision issues, but the low refresh rate of the LG.
 
athenian200 said:
So, basically what you're saying is that running at a higher Hz is the only way to bring down input lag on newer monitors, and you won't see any further benefit over existing panels if you're running software that's locked to 60FPS? So essentially, TN or CRT is still the only option for low input lag at 60Hz... that's what I didn't want to hear. Thanks, though.
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You lost me there: 15 ms is an very low input lag for 60Hz, less than 1 frame. running a low frame rate hurts your gaming response time anyway you look at it. even a slow as molasses VA panel can have low input lag, like the Z35 predator 7,17ms

For an even lower input lag to be relevant gaming wise, one need to increase the refresh rate , at 120Hz, " less than 1 frame" means <8.3ms
 
Well, I tested the input lag the only way I know how... I carried my Surface Book into Microcenter, DisplayPort cable and USB-based SNES controller in hand, and fired up Snes9x with Super Mario World and Super Mario All-Stars on the floor model. I had some trouble at Fry's, but the guys at Microcenter had no problem with it. Apparently there's no perceptible input lag. I even had my Mom, who is more sensitive to it than I am apparently, play SMW... she gets motion sickness on almost anything but a CRT, so she's basically become my human input lag test. She said it was nearly imperceptible even before I messed with any settings.

When I got it home and turned on the strobing backlight feature by switching to a faster response time, she said the input lag (and feelings of motion sickness) were completely gone for her. What I found really cool about it, was that when we turned that feature on, I could wave my hand in front of the screen and it would look funny, just like it does when you wave it in front of a CRT. That's how I knew we'd found the right monitor.

Even when I plug my Wii U into it and it displays a warning about dropping to 60Hz, the strobing backlight feature still appears to work, and that seems to be helping to eliminating the feeling of input lag in Super Mario World. Worked the same way when I tried the real SNES via Framemeister or OSSC (though the latter seemed a little faster). So all the input lag really is from the display after all, not from emulation or USB (a lot of people out there use serial port controllers and blame USB for the input lag). So this monitor will reduce input lag on retro game consoles enough to make them playable. I don't know how we're noticing the difference, since anything under 16ms is supposed to be beyond the range of perception, but this thing is making a difference at all refresh rates.

This isn't exactly like a professional review, but I thought it was worth pointing out that the monitor is apparently good enough for this use case where a lot of other displays I've used just aren't, even when they claim to be "gaming monitors" or have good response times.
 
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Strobing reduces the LCD sample and hold motion blur, on the Samsung it has no effect at all on the input lag.
CRT's don't have that blur so this must have been the actual root cause then, and not the input lag.
Sadly, the C24FG70 is double strobing at 60Hz/60fps, the blurring is still reduced but you get a constant doubling effect in motion:

https://pcmonitors.info/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/C24FG70-blur.png
 
igluk said:
Strobing reduces the LCD sample and hold motion blur, on the Samsung it has no effect at all on the input lag.
CRT's don't have that blur so this must have been the actual root cause then, and not the input lag.
Sadly, the C24FG70 is double strobing at 60Hz/60fps, the blurring is still reduced but you get a constant doubling effect in motion:

https://pcmonitors.info/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/C24FG70-blur.png
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Yeah, I've really never found an LCD I liked before this one. It wasn't really lagging at all before we turned the strobing on (it was basically already perfect in that regard when we tested it in the store with strobing off, or we wouldn't have brought it home), and I think remediating the sample and hold effect was why it "felt" better (better being more CRT-like from my POV) even after they eliminated the input lag from being perceptible. I think it was easy to conflate the two, because all the monitors before this one must have had both input lag problems AND sample/hold blur. Several LCD monitors were unusably bad in any games due to that blur, even if they were marketed as gaming monitors. I really haven't noticed the doubling effect, so I guess I'm "lucky" in that regard (it's weird, I read a review saying it was unusable at 60Hz with the strobing on due to the doubling, but when I tried it, I looked and couldn't see any doubled frames. I wonder if that means I'm weird in some way). But the monitor is internally reporting that it's running at 120Hz even with the 60Hz signal, so I don't think it really has a proper 60Hz mode.

By the way, there's also an overscan/underscan correction feature on the Wii U that can apparently be used to make it fill the monitor. I just set "Screen Size" to maximum, and now there aren't any black edges around the games.
 
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