Samsung F2380 vs F2380mx

Discussion in 'Displays' started by NCX, Apr 30, 2010.

  1. NCX

    NCX [H]ardness Supreme

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    Unfortunately The F2380 and F2380mx does not come with this
    [​IMG]

    Ok first lets get this out of the way, if you are NOT a color pro but like highly accurate color the original F2380 (280$) black crush is really easy to fix, it is just a matter of knowing about it. Thanks to Prad.de I do, and thanks via Riva Tuner custom color adjustments i could essentially fix the problem by changing the gamma from 1 to 1.4.

    Next thing to know that the F2380 performs similarly to a 5 ms TN according to Digital Verus. Here it is VS the 2233rz (which I also own).
    http://www.digitalversus.com/duels.php?ty=6&ma1=36&mo1=607&p1=6954&ma2=36&mo2=458&p2=4495&ph=1

    Now most of the ghosting problems I found were caused by the gamma crush and having the response time set to anything but Normal. Any thing but Normal adds red errors, just like the youtbue videos and Prad's red pixel ghosting test.

    Youtube
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71jFDveGNQ0

    Prad.de
    http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/testsoftware/ghosting-test.html

    Unfortunately the MX performs IDENTICALLY in these sytheic tests except in PixerPixan which I found it performed slightly better also being set to Normal.

    Now these Synthetic tests do not necessarily translate into real world games and films. They don't. For both monitors I was able to spot the red errors during really fast camera pans during really high contrast scenes. Again this is really only noticeable due to being used to a 120hz 2233rz and Samsung LN46A950. This is not really a fair comparison though as both are meant for gaming and movies. The F2380 series is not. Catching the blurring once the gamma crush is fixed and response time is changed (both) will probably only happen if you are comparing 2 panels. Both are great for console games/movies due to stellar contrast, screen uniformity and black levels.

    F2380 Easy Eye One Calibration
    [​IMG]
    Black Crush
    [​IMG]

    Out of the box settings (except F2380 riva tuner gamma fix) betweem the MX and vanilla version

    Delta E after Riva Tuner adjustment
    [​IMG]
    Delta E after Calibration via Eye One Display 2
    ][​IMG]

    Samsung F2380mx on the left VS Samsung F2380 after Color/Contrast via Eye One Display 2 and only Riva Tuner Gama adjustment on the F2380 ony
    [​IMG]

    Only minor contrast and brightness tweaks on the MX vs fully calibrated F2380. Forgive the huge image size but I thought this was the best way.
    [​IMG]

    same picture but dragged over to the F2380
    [​IMG]

    F2380mx Delta E after only brightness/contrast
    [​IMG]

    I feel its pointless for me to keep posting the Eye One Results and pics, hopefully you guys get the points. The Delta E on the MX was a bit over 1.00 after the contrast/brightness adjustments. It was under 1.00 once calibrated.

    Let me Sum it up.

    +F2380mx looks and performs better. Unless you are on a really tight budget it is pointless to get the original
    +F2380mx has noticeably better blacks once calibrated to 100cdm/2 in a pitch black room
    +F2380mx has HDMI and no black crush making it better for consoles
    +F2380mx has better motion set in Normal mode.
    +F2380mx has slightly better blacks (minute) and tiny bit better screen uniformity, this is only noticeable having them set up side by side
    +F2380mx Delta E is around 1.07 after contrast/brightness adjustments
    -F2380mx performs worse than the F2380 with response time set to Fast/Faster and has a yellowish/green tinge
    -F2380mx performs worse in the Prade red ghosting test
    +/-F2380mx is 160$ more and has very similar performance once calibrated and only real bonus is HDMI and slightly better motion, which again is probably only noticeable if you have both set up side by side
    +/- Input Lag is about the same (I didn't measure but it is obvious)

    Some side notes:

    All calibration done using Eye One Display 2 Colorimeter and Eye One Match 3. using D6500k, Gamma 2.2 (1.80 on the F2380=2.2, or just set riva tuner to 1.4)set to 100Cmd/2. Black level was measured @ 0.00 on the MX and 0.03 on the F2380 and 0.10 on the 2233rz.

    F2380+Consoles:

    +Change Gamma mode to 1 and response time to Normal, hardly any black crush and you will still get great PQ

    F2380mx+consoles

    +Change HDMI black level to Normal and Response Time Normal.

    I have calibrated a bunch of monitors and seemed to get good resutls. If I have made any mistakes let me know. I will post more pics of console/movies and will awnser any questions on Saturday.

    I will also post my calibrated settings later, also I am just to lazy to spend any more time on this right now.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2010
  2. fto

    fto n00bie

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    Nice writeup...
    Hoping to try one once more stores get it in, as I think $399 at BestBuy is a bit too much...
     
  3. samven582

    samven582 Limp Gawd

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    where did you buy the F2380mx?
     
  4. coolhandm3

    coolhandm3 Limp Gawd

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    How would I go about calibrating the F2380?? Where do you buy this colorimeter and is it hard to use?

    Also I can't find any store carrying the MX version, know any place that sells it?

    Would you say that the MX version stock has no black crush or does it still need to be calibrated?
     
  5. NCX

    NCX [H]ardness Supreme

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    400$ for a Monitor that out performs most 2,000$ TV's in terms of black levels contrast and out of the box Color is a steal.

    I bought the Mx from Best Buy in Canada, B.C.
    http://www.bestbuy.ca/en-CA/product...spx?path=dae633b213d27f71a721520440cf179een02

    @coolhand

    I calibrated the F2380 by first trying to find out how much it truly crushed dark images using Lagom and some pictures of my own. I also compared the same pictures to my calibrated 2233rz and messed around with both Eye One Match and Rivatuners Gamma adjustments untill I could not see any crush. Just by changing Riva Tuner's Gamma from 1-1.4 the Delta E decreased to around 2.00 and the black value which I previously mesasured at De 15 decreased to about 1.5. When fully calibrating the monitor using Eye One Match I set the gamma from 2.2 to 1.8 and compared to to the MX, they seemed close enough. Also the Delta E I measured on the F2380 clarified that my gamma adjustment was good enough.

    I used this Colorimeter and the programs like Eye One Match and Eye One Diagnostics. Eye One match is really easy to use. Took me about 15 minutes of reading the instructions to figure it out. I live in Canada so it cost me aboot 350$ after duty eh and exchange. It can be had for around 250$ in the states.
    http://www.xrite.com/product_overview.aspx?ID=788

    I purchased it new from an Amazon Seller

    I would say the MX stock has 0 black Crush, like I said I measured a Delta E of 1.04 before calibration, all I had done was change the brightness from 100-50 and contrast from 56-80.

    Here they are calibrated side by side. Pic isnt that great, the MX does appear darker, but that is just a result of the viewing angle
    [​IMG]

    Here they are in a pitch black room with exposure set to -2.
    [​IMG]

    The Mx is slightly darker and has slightly better uniformity. The slight bleed coming from the edges is unoticeable in games and widescreen movies.


    I will take even more pics later.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2010
  6. fto

    fto n00bie

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    Yeah for the performance it's definitely a pretty good buy, considering that the NEC 23" is about the same price range, but the NEC have had some reported tint issues. I bought a U2410 for $419 and returned it because I could not stand the tint issues with it.

    I'm just waiting for more places to compare prices with, since places like NCIX and other computer-centric stores usually have better prices.
     
  7. mathesar

    mathesar [H]ard|Gawd

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    Thanks for this, Tons of great info.

    Im just concerned how this F2380MX would perform as a gaming monitor, Is the ghosting pretty noticeable?
     
  8. NCX

    NCX [H]ardness Supreme

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    I guess I should clarify that when I talk about gaming I mean console games, not PC games. Last night I had a LAN party with my friends and we were all playing Borderlands for 9 hours, which is an 30FPS game.

    I was using the MX over VGA to try it (looks just as good as HDMI) my friend was using the F2380 over VGA and my other friend was using the my 950 via HDMI. Motion wise the MX came in second clearly over the F2380 and the 950 was first, but it's overdrive is in a whole other league.

    The MX is excellent for 30fps console games, just like I found the original was, but high contrast motion errors hardly ever occur on the MX despite (I noticed 0 during Borderlands just some motion blur) its identical performance to the F2380 in most Syntheic Tests.

    Some people were calling me out in other threads due to saying the F2380 motion is fine and the NEC is not, but this is a whole other story, what they aren't considering is the ridiculous contrast ratio improvement the F2380 series offers making the motion worth putting up with. Even the unfixable console black crush on the original is worth putting up with due to the overall PQ.

    Just look at the Digital Versus ghosting image on the original and imagine the MX performing slightly better. Obviously if you own a much faster monitor for games you will notice the difference in any game, movies not so much.

    http://www.digitalversus.com/duels.php?ty=6&ma1=36&mo1=607&p1=6954&ma2=36&ph=1
     
  9. wagsrules

    wagsrules [H]ard|Gawd

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    So this is the same panel as the f2370h. Anyone know when that will be available?
     
  10. bwise

    bwise n00bie

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    so if i get this right you suggest changing the gamma from 1 to 1.4 with rivatuner fixes the black crushes somewhat ?
     
  11. NCX

    NCX [H]ardness Supreme

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    Yes using the riva tuner gamma adjustments fixes the issue. This is the Delta E I measured after changing the gamma. Set brightness to 44-50 for 100cdm/2 and Contrast from 80-90 (up to you) for inky blacks and great contrast.

    http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj118/NCX123/colonies2/samsungf2380rivatunervalidde.jpg

    Just look at my Delta E photo. Once you have changed the gamma use Lagom to double check, you may find that 1.4 isn't right on your monitor. Keep in mind every panel is different so my settings might not be the best for you, but they will be very close (I have calibrated 2 F2380's and an F2380mx and found my initial settings carried over).

    If you own a second panel have them side by side to compare a dark picture and look at the shadow detail for reference, you may even find that you want to change the gamme a bit more. Just have a reference photo.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2010
  12. coolhandm3

    coolhandm3 Limp Gawd

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    Would Best Buy Canada ship to US? It seems US Best buys don't carry the f2380mx yet :/
    It looks like the MX for all intents and purposes is better then the reg f2380, the fixed black crush out of the box is fantastic! Would you be able to post your settings for the MX?

    More pics would be great ;)
     
  13. NCX

    NCX [H]ardness Supreme

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    Sorry US customers BB does not ship to the U.S. I recommend going into your local BB and asking about the MX, maybe it is coming soon.
    http://www.bestbuy.ca/en-CA/help/wh...64fd26f334abc1a0ben06&HelpCategoryId=Delivery and Returns&CategoryName=Delivery%20and%20Returns&ReferringPageTitle=Help%20Category%20List

    ok more pics. Here are some Prince of Persia pics i took on the F2380 with black crush, still looks fantastic. Hopefully these tide you over for now

    http://s270.photobucket.com/albums/jj118/NCX123/POP/

    I will post some more MX pics later and settings, any requests?
     
  14. mathesar

    mathesar [H]ard|Gawd

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    Well I tried talking to samsung "live chat" support and asked when the F2380MX would be available in the US, he said hold on ill check and after a few minutes said there's currently no information on when or if they'll even release it here.
     
  15. coolhandm3

    coolhandm3 Limp Gawd

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    Hmm,, yeah I wonder if it will ever come to the US? Too bad Best Buy CA won't ship to us lol

    NCX, if you could maybe take some pics of the MX with some pc games at native resolution?

    Also where did you get that AC2 wallpaper?? Looks awsome!
     
  16. mathesar

    mathesar [H]ard|Gawd

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    I also emailed Best Buy and got this response today:

    "That Samsung monitor is pretty cool. I checked it out. Usually we don't know until a few days before we get them in stock when an item is available in our stores or online. You can continue to check the website periodically. You can also try speaking with one of our sales specialists at 1-888-237-8289. Sometimes, they may have information on when a product will be available.

    Thank You,
    Tina
    Best Buy Customer Care"
     
  17. Baghdadii

    Baghdadii n00bie

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    I'm having some issues with my NEC EA231WMi and due to the fact that it's a replacement for a defective model I bought last week I'm getting the feeling that this is not the monitor for me.

    I am very interested in the F2380MX and the Best Buy's in my area have plenty in stock. There is just one thing that is preventing me from buying this - the white bezel. I would get the regular F2380 but the only place that has it is the place I got my NEC from and my experience with them hasn't been too pleasant...

    Do you find the bezel distracting? Also I highly doubt that I will be able to afford to calibrate the set so is the out of box image quality worth the price?
     
  18. NCX

    NCX [H]ardness Supreme

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    I currently don't have any PC games installed but I do have a bunch of Halo Reach and Borderlands pics going up soon

    Not sure where I got the AC2 theme but here it is on my photobucket

    [​IMG]


    I actualy prefer the white bezel it looks great and I don't find it distracting in a pitch black room. For example I was playing L4D2 "The Passing" which takes place underground in the sewers and the screen is completely picthed black unless I fired my gun. The bezel does not take away from the experience what so ever. Also the black level is so freaking good the screen is actually SOLID BLACK compared to most other monitors which would have backlight bleed and much lighter black levels (like my 2233rz which is plagued by bleed with the lights out).

    Colors are extremely accurate out of the box. The Dela E is under 3.0 stock which most people will never be able to tell in discrepancies unless they are doing color work, in fact I was almost unable to see any change once calibrated except the brightness. I just recommend turning down the brightness and turning up the contrast. I have calibrated quite a few monitors for friends and family and this is the only one that did nott need it and barely benifited. The original F2380 was the same as well except for the Gamma Crush.

    Here are my settings:

    MagicBright: Custom

    Brightness: 41
    Contrast: 85
    Sharpness: 60 (comes set to 60)
    Response Time: Normal

    Color:
    MagicColor: Off
    Red: 35
    Green: 28
    Blue: 34
    Color Tone: Custom
    Color Effect: Off
    Gamma: Mode1

    If the white Bezel is distracting just put black duck tape over it.

    I purchased both orignial F2380's from NCIX and have had no issues, you are just being plagued by IPS known problems. I steer clear from IPS, especially Dell due to all the issues and usually hefty price.

    My Halo Reach pics are here
    http://wecravegames.com/forums/show...ideogames-and-Blu-Ray-HDTV-Pic-Thread*/page77
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2010
  19. Godmachine

    Godmachine [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Find me one of these I can buy in the states..

    Go.
     
  20. coolhandm3

    coolhandm3 Limp Gawd

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    I'm with you, I would buy the F2380MX right now... but I am in the US :(

    I checked NCIX website, I see the F2380 but not the MX version, do they really carry it and would they ship to the us???
     
  21. E_man

    E_man n00bie

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    They planning a 16:10 version? I'd buy for 1920*1200...

    Anyone know?
     
  22. mathesar

    mathesar [H]ard|Gawd

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    16:9 is becoming the norm so I'd say probably not.

    16:10 is just oddball for 720p / 1080p content im glad they're making the switch.
     
  23. albovin

    albovin [H]ard|Gawd

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    Have you measured actual gamma value on your monitors after calibration?
    I don't mean setting gamma to 2.2 for calibration.
    I mean actually measured post calibration result.
    Thanx.
     
  24. E_man

    E_man n00bie

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    But it's a monitor, not a TV. 16:10 is much nicer for desktop use. TV, yeah, 16:9. Won't buy a monitor 16:9 unless there is 0 choice, including used market.

    I don't think 16:9 is becoming the norm for anything but the <$300 market. Most over that are 16:10.
     
  25. NCX

    NCX [H]ardness Supreme

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    I don't have exact numbers like 2.21 as I would have to re-calibrate them again which I guess I can do later if you want exact numbers. All I know is that once calibrated to 2.2 for the MX and 1.8 on the F2380 they were essentially identical and their Delta E results were also very close.

    If 16:10 is super important go get a Dell U2410 and have fun paying twice as much for it and sending it back. My 2233rz is 16:10 and it is just annoying during movies and games as there are always extra black bars. Why bother especially sense many monitors suffer from back light bleed or low black levels which are far more obvious on 16:10 monitors.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2010
  26. Nightingale007

    Nightingale007 [H]Lite

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    Seems like a nice Display but what concerns me is the 8ms response time.
     
  27. NCX

    NCX [H]ardness Supreme

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    http://www.digitalversus.com/article-357-6954-36.html

    8ms means nothing, take the Dell U2410 it is stated as having a 6ms response time, but in reality it is very fast.
     
  28. drleospaceman

    drleospaceman Gawd

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    Anyone want to export? :D
     
  29. Nightingale007

    Nightingale007 [H]Lite

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    The main problem I have is the same issue digital verses had, Response time. Love the fact that this demonstrates the potential of C- PVA tech and it's ability to be an all around Monitor. It's able to produce Deep blacks without crushing, High contrast, good color reproduction and viewing angels however the 8ms and $400 price tag is the Killer. Not to mention the F2380 can be had at retail for $240CAD.

    I have seen and played on a F2380 at a local computer store where it was hooked up to TEAM FORTRESS 2 and it does Ghost. My 20WMGX2 produced less ghosting (6ms, not by much of course but then again my NEC is OLD). I'm not saying that it ghosts horribly, far from it but for not being an IPS and costing $400 dollars I expect at least 5ms response time or to be more exact 0.5 frames of ghosting not 0.94. 8ms is not expectable in this modern day for FPS gaming on the PC.

    I don't see how that is a steal when you consider for a moment that Those "$2000 TV's" are 50' in size have built in DSP, tuners, scalers , multi inputs etc.....Watching Moves on a Tiny 23' is dull in comparsion to a big screen.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2010
  30. Baghdadii

    Baghdadii n00bie

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    OH. MY. GOD.

    What an amazing monitor. Just picked it up today and I've only used it with my 360 playing NHL 10 and SC: Conviction but I can already tell that I will be using this for a long time.

    THE BLACKS ARE PERFECT. They make a HUGE difference when playing ANYTHING. It's absolutely amazing how good they are and the shadow detail is perfect. Splinter cell is a blast with this thing. I've noticed that the colours have a very cool temperature. Those who are used to warm colours may need some time to get used to it but it's worth it. I'm a guy who likes cool colours though so this made me a very happy man.

    In terms of responsiveness, I have noticed a bit of blur. I have to admit, the NEC EA231WMi was probably more responsive but it's honestly not that bad. If you are playing FPS solely on a PC then you should probably look at something else but otherwise you should be fine. I'll play some MW2 later and let you guys know how that turns out but from what I've seen so far it shouldn't be an issue.*

    It's a small compromise for such amazing colours and the best black level I have ever seen. Seriously, it puts my Samsung plasma to shame and the only TV's out there that have a comparable black level are the Pioneer Kuro's.

    For those in the US, the regular F2380 should be just fine. I saw one on display when I was returning my NEC and it was quite evident that the blacks on that were way better than anything else. I did notice the black crush but like NCX said, it can be fixed easily.

    I thought the white bezel would be an issue but it hasn't bothered me at all. I'm too busy drooling over the picture quality of this monitor. If you have the cash, live in Canada, and don't need IPS accuracy; this is the monitor for you. Like I said before, the colours are on the cool side so photographers and anybody else that needs perfect colour accuracy should look for something else. Overall, this is easily the best monitor I have ever used and it is perfect for those who are looking for one that can be used until OLED arrives.

    NCX, I wouldn't have considered this monitor at all if you didn't make this thread. I really appreciate the hard work you have done and hopefully more people will realize what an amazing monitor this is.

    * I forgot to change response time from faster to normal. It was quite clear that there was some overdrive in this mode so I'm sure normal would be a lot better. I will update this post when I get the chance to adjust it and play some MW2.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2010
  31. NCX

    NCX [H]ardness Supreme

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    the NEC is only more responsive in synthetic tests, which the Samsung fails at. Try my settings Baghdadii they will greatly improve the PQ, or at least use my brightness/contrast settings as they yeilded an outstanding black level measurement of 0.00 across the board. Make sure to use Normal for response time and change the HDMI black level to normal.

    I'm sure when official reviews come out the F2380mx will have <1 Delta E average as that is what I measured after performing basic calibration.

    Also check out the Alan Wake live action videos on the XBL marketplace, they are SOLID BLACK it is amazing, only Kuros and Local Dimming sets are capable of that sort of black level reproduction in a pitch black room.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2010
  32. coolhandm3

    coolhandm3 Limp Gawd

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    Can we get someone that is willing to import these to the US??
    Maybe sell them on eBay?? Come on Canucks! help us out! lol
     
  33. albovin

    albovin [H]ard|Gawd

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    Pls be more attentive.
    NCX actually did not fix it. He just screwed gamma down.
    No info about actual gamma after his manipulations provided.
     
  34. drleospaceman

    drleospaceman Gawd

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    Are the F2380MX and F2380M the same thing?
     
  35. Klas_s

    Klas_s n00bie

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    The F2380MX looks really good, and I'm considering it or the Eizo EV2333WH as a replacement for my Dell 2005FPW, for gaming and movies.

    But after reading prad.de's review of the F2380 and the EV2333WH I'm not really sure which one is the better option. As I understand it they both use the same panel, so is the differences between them just out of the box settings?
     
  36. Klas_s

    Klas_s n00bie

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    I don't think they are, the F2380MX was just realesed and the F2380M was realesed in 2009 if I'm not mistaken. Don't know what the diffrences is though, except the F2380M is black and the MX white.

    Would really like to know how they perform against eachother, as the F2380M is the only one of them available here.
     
  37. drleospaceman

    drleospaceman Gawd

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    Samsung's response about availability in the US:
     
  38. fto

    fto n00bie

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    Don't quote me on this, but I remember reading...

    The F2380 and F2380M are the same generation. The M just adds HDMI...

    Whereas the MX is the updated version of the M. Thus it also has HDMI.
     
  39. NCX

    NCX [H]ardness Supreme

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    Like I said earlier I measured deeper blacks on the MX so I believe it is an upgraded version where as the F2380M just adds HDMI and speakers, not sure if the F2380M suffers from default black crush.

    This should awnser most questions regarding the difference between the F2380 and F2380M except the black crush.
    http://www.digitalversus.com/article-357-6293-36.html
     
  40. Amantadine

    Amantadine n00bie

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    Fellow Canadian here. NCX You have really sparked my interest in this model. I badly need to upgrade to a New/Larger LCD. My current unit is IPS NEC20WMGX2.

    It seems to me the general consensus here is to buy the new generation IPS panels.
    My only concern is the contrast in IPS panels. My NEC has great colors but is not so hot with blacks.
    I see the new HP has poor contrast unless your willing to sacrifice the color level. The U2410 is expensive, lacks deep blacks and has tinting issues not to mention DELL's lottery.
    On the up side they have faster Response time, have the bestter aspect ratio 16:10 which gives more practical real estate for the PC user and less input lag than the Samsung C-PVA Correct?

    I am wondering does the F2380mx perform similar to my NEC in response time and input latency? If so Then I think it's something I can live with. While my NEC is no 2ms, 0 input latency monitor I have not really had any problems with it in regards to gaming.