Samsung EV Battery Gets 300+ Miles Of Range From 20-Minute Charge

Discussion in '[H]ard|OCP Front Page News' started by Megalith, Jan 10, 2017.

  1. Megalith

    Megalith 24-bit/48kHz Staff Member

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    This is an interesting development toward the practicality of future EVs, as Tesla’s superchargers take half an hour to charge and only provide 170 miles of range in comparison. But let the jokes and fiery consequences begin…

    Samsung’s SDI battery subsidiary announced a new battery cell designed for use in electric vehicles that offers improved density to manage a max range of up to 372 miles on a full charge, with a quick charge capacity that will help it regain 310 miles or so of charge on just 20 minutes of charging. Unveiled at the North American International Auto Show for the first time, the new battery tech come with a 10 percent decrease in the number of units and weight required vs. current production battery units made by Samsung SDI. Mass production isn’t set to begin until 2021, but the tech should arrive in time to supply the first crop of autonomous cars, which are also targeting street dates sometime within that year from a range of manufacturers.
     
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  2. nutzo

    nutzo [H]ardness Supreme

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    I wonder how large the mushroom cloud will be when one of these explodes :D

    A 300+ mile range is just enough to make an electric car viable for almost all my driving.
    Too bad the cost of electricity is so high out here in Southern California, that even at $3.5/gallon for gas it's cheaper for me to drive a Hybrid.
     
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  3. Ducman69

    Ducman69 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    That's why I'm surprised there's anyone buying electric vehicles right now. Not only are the batteries expensive to replace, but resale is miserable as the tech is changing too fast. Makes much more sense to lease, if anything.
     
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  4. Ultima99

    Ultima99 [H]ardness Supreme

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    The girl in the pic is OK I guess....
     
  5. nightanole

    nightanole [H]ard|Gawd

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    Um superchargers run at 125kwh. They are claiming they can more that double that...

    Now a scrub standard univeral ev charger can achieve 475 Volts at 120 amps for 57kwh, a hair above the 50kwh standard.

    Now go head and smoke some of that, samsung is claiming 600amps. Or they are just blowing smoke since they wont give out pack capacity or charging rate.

    This is what it takes to get 300miles and hour of charge.
    http://i.imgur.com/coQ84sK.jpg
     
  6. thejokker

    thejokker Gawd

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    How toxic are the batteries?
     
  7. collegeboy69us

    collegeboy69us [H]ardness Supreme

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    This is just like any other "magical" battery tech article you've read for the past 10 years. Until something is on the market, I don't give a rats ass. There have been countless "breakthroughs" that promise tons of capacity and fast charge times, but it's all talk till there's a product in hand. Many of these breakthroughs never make it to market due to inability to translate lab results into a workable product. That's life.

    I bought a 2017 volt middle of last year and loving it, even when gas was $2 a gallon I was still saving money because I have super cheap electricity (yay Texas) To the people saying "EV batteries are expensive to replace" here ya go:
    https://transportevolved.com/2016/0...miles-with-one-third-on-electric-power-alone/

    And still no degradation -- thanks to the way the whole system was designed. (same with Tesla and others) Even if you do wind up needing a replacement out of warranty, by the time that happens, the price is a fraction of what it costs when it came out.

    I love my volt, and I drive around 75 miles round trip every day for work. Once the Model 3 comes out and the dust settles I'm interested in getting one and going all electric because I'm a nerd. 35, single, no kids... and cars are my hobby so I'm less concerned about the money aspect.
     
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  8. DigitalGriffin

    DigitalGriffin 2[H]4U

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    I believe Samsung recently licensed technology that uses carbon nano-tubes which cause a quantum tunneling effect for the electrons. They are a LOT more efficient at charging.

    http://spectrum.ieee.org/nanoclast/...ies-can-charge-to-near-maximum-in-two-minutes
    http://newatlas.com/charging-battery-in-minutes/32579/
     
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  9. JosiahBradley

    JosiahBradley [H]ard|Gawd

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    I probably have devices that use Samsung battery tech in some way, but if I willingly know that I'm getting it, I'm staying the fuck away from it.
     
  10. Tsumi

    Tsumi [H]ardForum Junkie

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    20 minutes per 300 miles is very close to gas station fillup times. If true, I can actually see this being viable for long distance trips.

    Of course, the naysayer in me asks how green is the production of the battery. If it's not a relatively green process, this technology is pointless.
     
  11. DigitalGriffin

    DigitalGriffin 2[H]4U

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    All Lithium Ion battery building processes take a TON of water. So no, not really clean. But that's true for ALL lithium ion batteries and computer chips when making pure silicon wafers. If they are using carbon nanotubes as the anode, it's not making it any more dangerous to the environment.



    src:
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2017
  12. Ducman69

    Ducman69 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Too much Chin Poon.
     
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  13. nightanole

    nightanole [H]ard|Gawd

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    Thats not what i am getting at. Samsung could have a battery pack with infinite capacity and zero resistance for all i care.

    Im talking about the fact of having 300kwh or higher charge rate, through a connector. Im sure you have seen how hot a space heater cord gets at only 1.5kwh.

    Just let that sink in, 300kwh, enough to power 30 homes with the ac running, through a 2 prong connector:

    [​IMG]
     
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  14. DigitalGriffin

    DigitalGriffin 2[H]4U

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    You could increase the voltage. Main lines are at least 70,000 Volts.* That would lower the current (which is what really heats up conductors to failure) (I may be wrong about that number, but it's in the general ballpark) But I wouldn't want to be anywhere near that conductor.

    Subways require 600 Volts. (That's 500 amps give or take)

    at 480 Volts, it will require a 1500 MCM conductor. (Assuming 3 phase and < 50 foot feed and < 5% loss)

    I can sit down and do the math, but today is super busy.

    BTW: 300 kWh is 300,000 watts for 1 hour. I think you meant plain old kW which is the rate of charge, not the total charge. (I Imagine that was a typo on your part)
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2017
  15. cyclone3d

    cyclone3d [H]ardForum Junkie

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    If the cord on a space heater is getting hot... or on any electric device for that matter, then the wire gauge is too small.
     
  16. DigitalGriffin

    DigitalGriffin 2[H]4U

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    Yes you bought a $30,000 (after tax incentives which we all pay for) Volt that is built on the exact same platform as the Chevy Cruze at $19,000. Base cost difference: $11,000 + electricity cost + required recycling of gas so it doesn't go stale @ 4.00/gallon and you still come out on the short end for the first 500,000 miles. I did the math. That car gets worse mileage in hybrid mode than the Cruze does on the highway in regular mode.

    I chastised Chevy for this on a facebook post and showed the math...they banned me. Jack asses.
     
  17. DocSavage

    DocSavage 2[H]4U

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    Or a poor connection for the current. I have a kitchen outlet that's black and partially melted from powering a toaster oven and it's rated for the current.
     
  18. cyclone3d

    cyclone3d [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Right.. but it would only get hot near the connection. If the whole cord is getting hot then it is the cord that is the problem.

    Change that outlet before it causes a fire.
     
  19. collegeboy69us

    collegeboy69us [H]ardness Supreme

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    Not surprised you got banned... you sound like an asshole (one that's terrible at math too).

    My money, I'll buy whatever I want.

    "required recycling of gas @ $4" - mind if I as what kind of crack you are smoking? the 9 gallons in the tank gets used up every 4 to 6 weeks with my driving requirements (even if you don't use ANY gas the car has built in programming to use up gas thats near going stale automatically without any user intervention) this notion of recycling gas just flat does not exist in any shape or form that you mentioned, and if you are just going to pull numbers out of your ass for gas prices then there's really no point in arguing with you. $4 a gallon? national average is around 2.68 and has been for a long time.


    I have the volt, I've driven the Cruz, the two cars are nothing alike in terms of performance and luxury. Are you the type of guy that thinks everyone should drive around in 15 year old honda civics? I'm a car guy, I've owned everything from a 1.3L rotary engine, to a 7.0L race built LS7 engine, its my hobby and passion, and the Volt is a damn good car that gets me where I need to go and uses no gas. I find it funny you complain about the tax incentives on the car as well... any hybrid with a X level of battery pack can take advantage of the tax incentives, so unless you want to complain about the prius/tesla or any plug in hybrid there's no leg to stand on there.


    Applying your life logic we should all be using Celeron Dual core machines, eating rice and beans for every meal, and wearing paper bags instead of proper clothes.
     
  20. DPI

    DPI [H]ardForum Junkie

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    She's on the upper end of the homely spectrum.
     
  21. nutzo

    nutzo [H]ardness Supreme

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    Plus, he could invest the $11,000 he saved and use the interest to offset some of the gas he would be buying.

    Don't confuse him with the facts while he thinks he is saving the planet.
     
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  22. nutzo

    nutzo [H]ardness Supreme

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    Not completely true. Only plug-in hybrids and full electric cars have the tax incentives. So, only a very small number of plug-in Prius qualify.

    In my defense I drive a Camry hybrid.
    It was about $3,000 more than the non-hybrid (with no tax incentives). I drive about 90% city, and it gets almost double the mileage of my previous 4 cyl Camry.
    When gas was over $4/gal my break even period was only a few years. Since gas has been around $2.50 it's taking much longer. I keep my cars for 10+ years, so a few more years to break even still works for me. Best part is the range. 40mpg + 17gal tank = 680 miles/tank. I usually only fill the tank about once a month :D
     
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  23. jpm100

    jpm100 [H]ardness Supreme

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    Looks like she has a nice personality, though.
     
  24. Chaos Machine

    Chaos Machine Limp Gawd

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    This is exactly what I did with my volt
     
  25. BloodyIron

    BloodyIron [H]ard|Gawd

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    Okay, so you say that making the batteries takes a tonne of water, well, how much of that water is re-used within the fabrication process? I am confident that businesses would factor in the cost savings of recycling water over piping new water in all the time. So, can you prove:

    a) How much water is used
    b) How much water is re-used


     
  26. BloodyIron

    BloodyIron [H]ard|Gawd

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    You're not accounting for the fact that they are two different technologies, internal combustion vs electric.

    Electric motors can last over 100 years if properly maintained : http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a1609/4215940/

    There's even other examples of long lifespan, exceeding 30 years : https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20111013050943AAubm5W

    Electric motors themselves and the drivetrain require almost no maintenance. Replacing batteries are about the biggest maintenance from wear you'll need to do, and if you treat your equipment properly, they can last even longer than they're rated for.

    Now let's look at the values of internal combustion cars...

    1. trustedchoice.com, you lose 11% driving it off the lot, and that continues to 63% after just 5 years : https://www.trustedchoice.com/insurance-articles/wheels-wings-motors/car-depreciation/
    2. edmunds.com, similar stats : https://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/how-fast-does-my-new-car-lose-value-infographic.html

    That's just how the industry has been for the last, bunch of decades. Imagine how the value of internal combustion vehicles will be when electric cars are the rage. Internal Combustion vehicles will drop in value incredibly when this happens, because demand will be with electric.


     
  27. DigitalGriffin

    DigitalGriffin 2[H]4U

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    First off I placed 2nd in the state math competition in high school and got straight a's all the way through differential equations and linear algebra

    By recycling I meant the gas had to be used or go bad. And that $4.00/gallon average works towards your advantage. That is because the conventional cars cost advantage gets eaten up a lot quicker when gas prices go up. But even at $4.00/gallon you are still on the losing side of the equation. I'm not even including the cost of the high voltage charger. I'm also assuming you are running at it's near optimum with daily trips < 10 miles and very cheap electricity. That's 5x's a week...or 200 working days a year. (The time matters because you have to burn off that stale case no matter how much you travel on battery alone)

    If you want I can break down the equation for you line by line like I did at Chevy @ facebook. But you won't like the results.

    Congrats on your LS7 C6-Z06. Or were you one of those who picked the camaro? I raced my Z51 C6 LS2 around the track on a regular basis with a 6 speed manual transmission. (I'm a car guy too) I've also gone to a couple performance driving schools including Spring Mountain. And yes, I heel toe.

    The point being the you are on the losing end in terms of saving the environment (once hybrid mode kicks in), and money. And you forget that electricity comes from ~50% fossil fuels which still produces more particulate pollutants nitrous, sulfur, and more than gasoline.

    And yes I have every right to complain about that tax rebate because it cost all americans. We are still at a budget deficit. Where do you think that money comes from?...well 30% of it come from CHINA. We all pay for it.

    Yeah I'm an ass. But raw numbers to a chief engineer are what matters. I'm not here for popularity.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2017
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  28. jpm100

    jpm100 [H]ardness Supreme

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    Massive amounts of water are required for almost all manufacture, 2000 gallons for a battery would be on par with the rest of the car which is like 40x more.
     
  29. DocSavage

    DocSavage 2[H]4U

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    I wouldn't mind the actual breakdown. I'm sure different people have different use cases and it would be interesting to see what effects changing variables would have.
     
  30. DigitalGriffin

    DigitalGriffin 2[H]4U

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    Car A Cost + (cost/mileA * miles) = Car B Cost + (cost/mileB * miles)

    Solve for Miles. That is your break even.

    The thicket is in the true cost of ownership. With something like the volt you have to figure 1) what your electricity cost are per mile and 2) how much you drive a day. (and you assume 35 miles average charge) and how much gas you have to burn on a regular basis just to get rid of potentially stale gas. To figure out kWh you have to assume 50% charge efficiency. So the Joule rating of the battery = total energy. a Watt is 1 joule per second. Scale that up to 1kW to make the math simple and figure out how long it takes to charge then divide by .5. That's how many kWh it takes to charge the battery. Multiply that by the cost per kWh. Divide that by 35 (average battery life if you are careful...not factoring in a blaring radio, stop and go traffic, head lights, and winter heat) If you go into hybrid mode, then you have to adjust the cost per mile based on how many miles you drive in hybrid mode @4/gallon That's what it cost per mile. If you do mostly highway driving, the pre 2016 Volt loses. The Cruze can get 40 MPG./30 MPG in city. The pre 2016 volt that I complained about was around 36 MPG.

    If you factor in battery replacement and declining battery performance @150,000 miles...yeah game over.

    Now on average to cut down on rolling resistance and lower Cd those tires are extra narrow. The reduce the toe in, and camber to near neutral also. That makes handling an issue with a good cross wind or big truck comes up. You are lucky to get 35,000 out of a set of tires due to the increased load. I know because I've been through 6 sets of prius tires at 200,000 miles. (If you don't believe me look at the psi rating) That's great for things like rain and snow...not so much for tire life once you exceed a certain PSI.

    Now if you completely ignore tire cost, burning stale gas, going into hybrid mode, the charging station charge, and cost of electricity, your break even is 93500 miles assuming $4.00 gallon gas.

    $11,000 price diff / $4/gallon = 2750 gallons of gas

    2750 * 34MPG = 93500 miles break even

    $11,000 price diff / $3/gallon gas = 3666 gallons of gas

    3666 * 34 MPG = 124,666 miles break even

    your battery warranty is 100000 miles. after that you will see your storage capacity start to drop and your car operating in hybrid mode more.

    The old Volt used to do a lot worse in it's rating numbers then this one above. They added capacity and improved the hybrid mode quite a bit. But it's still iffy. A Prius would still work better towards your advantage. Or a Bolt, or Leaf. (depending on how far you travel)
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2017
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  31. DocSavage

    DocSavage 2[H]4U

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    Great reply. I like how you also showed that even with free electricity and charging setup, that $11,000 buys an awful lot of gas.

    I don't drive that much - maybe 10,000 miles per year. It would probably never break even for me unless those batteries are exceedingly reliable.

    I tried to do the calculations myself the other day, but I couldn't find actual mpg values for the volt. It was always some estimated 42mpg with city+hwy miles.

    edit: About those tires. I learned real fast that those can have a big effect when I was calculating TCO on a motorcycle. 50mpg isn't all that great when you have to replace tires every 10K miles.
     
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  32. DigitalGriffin

    DigitalGriffin 2[H]4U

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    The water isn't reused. The solution sits in evaporation lakes. After the water evaporates it leaves a paste behind which is high in lithium content, salt, and other ground contaminants....hence the problem. It's not as bad as strip mining coal, coal ash, and culm which produce a good portion of electricity for those batteries, but it's still not good.
     
  33. collegeboy69us

    collegeboy69us [H]ardness Supreme

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    Saving the planet? Nope, I bought it because it's a new and interesting powertrane, it's a geek car and fits me well. 300ftbs from 0 is also quite fun in ultimate silence. For the malibu or cruz, I've had them as rentals before, the start stop tech in even the 2016's is pretty bad... that's worth something right that alone that I never have to deal with in my volt.

    If I was one of the eco-nazi's like you think I am, why the hell would I have owned a 7L Z06... sadly I sold it to buy a house, but to the core I'm a car guy. Would it shock you even more to know I've been in the oil and gas industry for over 10 years? (Petroleum Landman/ GIS Specialist / MWD Specialist) Yup - I have such a hardon to save the planet while I'm on oil rigs helping to get the shit out of the ground. *eyeroll*

    I know a thing or two about money as well -- my degree funny enough is in Economics (i'd be happy to take a picture for you if you like) I always get a kick when people like you just can't understand that people will spend their money how they want, and somehow you think your opinion is a factor in any of this. No wife, no kids, I have a few bucks to spend on fun stuff, so why not?


    You've demonstrated a very closed minded approach to life, so you will probably never understnad that for someone who drives almost 2000 miles a month, the absolute joy of only having to get gas once a month.
     
  34. collegeboy69us

    collegeboy69us [H]ardness Supreme

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    In my experience -- to get solid numbers really depends on how and where you are driving the volt. The car is rated for 42mpg when you are using the gas engine and the numbers I see on a road trip match up exactly with what's advertised. On the electric side of things it's all about how you drive it, here in Texas (DFW specifically) its mostly flat, but everything is a highway, I don't do much "city" driving i.e. 45mph or below. 90% of my commute to work is all highway, which isn't optimal at all for an electric car. The fact I can still do a 70-80 miles commute and still use less than 1/2 a gallon though is pretty awesome IMO. If work would install a basic 120V outlet I could charge... alas no dice on going 100% electric yet. According to the OnStar app, over the past 8 months Ive had the car, 70% of all the miles done are in electric mode. For every gallon of gas I've put in the car, I've gone right at 130 miles.

    Edit: the other thing is overall/average mpg and mpgE numbers flucutate due to temperature, once you start going below 50 degrees F the batteries will take a range hit. And as with any electric car using the heat saps power quick (luckily *gasp* there's a gas engine onboard if you want fast/efficient heat)

    The mistake people make in assuming that that price difference between say a cruz and a volt ($11k in argument) I've driven both, and the volt is like a cadillac compared to a cruz. Things like fit and finish, quality of materials, ride quality, noise, all those are worth something when it comes to the price. If someone forced a cruz on me, I'd happily pay more NOT to use their piss poor start/stop tech in that car.

    At the end of the day people will buy what they want and what they can afford, and those that can't will get on the internet to insult others choices because it doesn't fit into their little picture box of the world, it's funny and sad at the same time. Seems there are more than a few people here though can't wrap their mind around the concept of someone buying something simply because they think it's cool or nice.

    Funny enough I'm selling my motorcycle because even though 50-55mpg was pretty awesome its made obsolete by the volt.
     
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  35. Grahamkracka

    Grahamkracka [H]ard|Gawd

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    Just to chime in, if your employer happens to have free chargers (like mine) then it's pretty easy to financially justify the Volt. I keep 4 gallons (that I burn every couple months) in the tank for emergencies, but for the most part I just charge my car at work exclusively. I can make a round trip on a single charge.

    And to piggy back on collegeboy69us, the car is definitely not a base model Cruz that's been floated around here. If you completely loaded out a Cruz to where it cost nearly 30K (which yes, they exist)...then you might have a close analogue without the electric function...but that would defeat your cost comparison argument.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2017
  36. Nobified[H]

    Nobified[H] [H]ard|Gawd

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    This won't power my flux-capacitor, you all know I need 1.21 gigawatts!
     
  37. gathagan

    gathagan Gawd

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  38. DigitalGriffin

    DigitalGriffin 2[H]4U

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    I will admit, I was an ass. No excuse. I was having a bad week and was cranky. My apologies.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2017