SAMSUNG 860 EVO Series 2.5" 500GB

Discussion in 'SSDs & Data Storage' started by FenFox, Jul 11, 2018 at 8:34 PM.

  1. FenFox

    FenFox [H]Lite

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    Is this worth buying? It's on sale right now for $160 CAD.

    https://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/MX70318

    Overall the reviews are positive, but some people are complaining about Samsung Magician not working, and various other issues, which is surprising because It's a Samsung SSD.

    I would like to buy a new SSD for Windows/Apps/Games. $160 CAD is the most I'd want to pay. Is this worth it?

    Or am I better off going with this since It's $17 cheaper: https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B0786QNS9B/?tag=pcp0f-20
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018 at 9:08 PM
  2. Tiberian

    Tiberian DILLIGAFuck

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    I have a Samsung 860 EVO 250GB SSD I just got roughly 2 weeks ago, already got 1.2TB of writes on it (I'm tough on computers, really I am, and this one is warrantied for 150TB of writes which does seem a bit low considering, the 500GB model is rated for 300TB of write cycles (fixed this 'cause I made a typo) if you're wondering within the 5 year warranty period). So far I have no issues with it, no complaints, and these days since all SATA III SSDs are going to perform basically the same overall (roughly 520-550MB/s reads and 470-520MB/s writes, it's a foregone conclusion nowadays), I'd say stick with Samsung.

    I won't recommend Crucial as I purchased an MX500 250GB drive several weeks ago and Windows 10 fucks with the drive's parameters and removes any potential for doing an ATA Secure Erase on the drive - a pulse sent through all the cells simultaneously which makes it "factory" condition in about 5-15 seconds depending on capacity, and no this is NOT a zero wipe, it's something that only SSDs and NVMe drives can do nowadays. Windows 10, upon detection of the drive, alters drive parameters and basically disables the entire ATA Secure Mode subsystem in the drive controller - it literally vanishes like a fart in the wind the moment you use any Crucial MX-series SSD with Windows 10. The Crucial support forum has dozens of posts and complaints about that crap and once I realized it - because I use the ATA Secure Erase regularly on my SSDs - that instantly made me realize I'll never buy another Crucial SSD again.

    If you're truly cash strapped, buy what you can afford, but my personal recommendation - after having owned quite a few Samsung SSDs in the past few years and never having a single issue with any of them but with other brands so far it always seems like something occurs either with the hardware of the SSD itself (corruption, power issues, disconnects, etc) or the software (which I don't like to use but sometimes will) - is do whatever it takes to get the Samsung instead of that Crucial drive.

    I just looked at the pricing and the Samsung on the Amazon Canadian site is what, $164.99 CAD, it's worth that +$5 over your announced price point, seriously.

    Good luck.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018 at 9:28 AM
  3. DangerousMan

    DangerousMan Limp Gawd

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    I just got one from Newegg today ($157 total.) No complaints here, but I'm only using it as a temp/downloads drive (main os drive is a 960 pro.) I do have an older 850evo as an os drive in a 2nd pc and an older crucial mx also as an os drive in a spare pc connected to my tv. Neither pcs do anything more then web surfing and occasional video/plex use, and I don't really notice any speed difference between the two. My 850evo was also used for years in a macbook pro as the main drive without any issues.
     
  4. FenFox

    FenFox [H]Lite

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    What do you mean by "the 500GB model is 300GB?
    And if all SATA III SSDs perform the same, why not save $17?

    I have no idea what ATA Secure Erase is. ;x Or what you're referring to.
     
  5. RanceJustice

    RanceJustice [H]ardness Supreme

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    I may be incorrect, but i'm guessing that Tiberian intended to type was 300TB, of writes not GB?

    All SATA III SSDs have pretty much the same "ceiling" for certain types of performance thanks to saturating the SATA III interface bandwidth. Though most modern drives all reach this ceiling, there are variations that make some models better than each other. Some have longer/better warranties. Hardware differences can affect both performance/features and durability, between drives. The type of controller is a big one and the top-tier manufacturers are often iterating on this; I believe Samsung makes their own controllers directly, not sure if Crucial/Micron does as well currently or if they still source them from Marvell I think it was. The particular type of NAND used is also noteworthy. Top tier drive today typically use 3D\ NAND as with both you mention (Samsung calls theirs V-NAND alluding to the vertical, hence 3d stacking thereof) . Less expensive drives tend to use TLC instead of MLC and though the latter has some benefits especially in durability, these days you can still have a solid drive with 3D TLC from the right manufacturer. Cache can also vary, along with other beneficial features that have to do with the way the drive processes and sorts data, varying algorithms refined with each iteration. Features such as TRIM support, hardware AES encryption, garbage collection etc...all can vary in their presence and effectiveness.

    I was not aware of the issue with Crucial MX500 drives that Tiberian was speaking of, but it is rather alarming. As he mentioned it is a way to well.. securely erase or wipe a SSD, but from his description it sounds like Windows interprets something with the MX500's controller and messes with the drive's parameters. This may or may not be a feature that you'll use with any frequency, but it is still a concern because it could have other effects as well if Windows interfaces with its controller in a specific way.

    For something as important as storage I feel it is best to stay within the top echelon which is occupied primarily by those who manufacture their own drives/components and both Samsung and Crucial/Micron are members of this group. When it comes to SATA SSDs , Samsung has typically been the standard-bearer holding the top spot all around, with Crucial offering items slightly below in both features/performance and price. While both have made better and worse items in their line, Crucial does seem to have issues within certain models so it is important to research closely. Given that we are only talking about a $17 difference, I think it is probably best to go Samsung 860 EVO. If the Crucial model was an astounding deal that would be one thing, but for both reasonably priced, quality SSDs given the 860 EVO's all around package, it may be the better choice.
     
  6. Tiberian

    Tiberian DILLIGAFuck

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    Yes, my apologies, didn't see the typo, the 500GB version of the Samsung 860 EVO SSD is rated for 300TB of writes over the 5 year warranty period. Fixed the post above and pointed out the edit. :p

    The only way to get the MX500 functional again - or any Crucial SSD used with Windows 10 and even Windows 8/8.1 too in some cases, assuming it works - is to use the PSID revert operation which many users have complained doesn't work properly. Nobody seems to know why Crucial SSDs are susceptible to that alteration that Windows 10 does to them, not even Crucial or at least they don't have the balls to stand up and admit it. The drive I had? Once I realized what happened I attempted to use the PSID revert operation with Crucial's software and it would not work, not once, which just pissed me off considerably more.

    It's just something to be aware of, that's why I mentioned it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018 at 9:33 AM
  7. Dermen

    Dermen Limp Gawd

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    I would buy the Crucial SSD personally. Secure erase in Windows is something you will most likely never use. Secure erase completely erases the SSD and refreshes the cells.

    1. Windows already refreshes cells in the background automatically, you can also do it manually anytime you want.
    2. You can NOT secure erase your OS drive in Windows (doesn't matter if it is Samsung or Crucial)
    3. You CAN still secure erase any drive from a boot cd/usb stick in the event you want to erase the drive and sell it (EDIT: you just have to do a psid reset first)
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018 at 12:49 AM
  8. Tiberian

    Tiberian DILLIGAFuck

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    I guess you missed the point where I just said you can't do a proper ATA Secure Erase on Crucial MX-series SSDs when you've used them with Windows 8/8.1/10 because they become "eDrives" which means the entire secure erase subsystem on the drive is disabled, didn't you?

    Sure, you can do a zero wipe on the entire drive using other types of tools, but that's a waste of write cycles and not what ATA Secure Erase is as part of the ATA spec for ATA Secure Mode operations. But once a Crucial MX-series SSD is marked as an eDrive the entire ATA Secure Mode subsystem is disabled and the ATA Secure Erase functionality isn't there anymore. In fact when you query such an "eDrive" it won't even show you any secure subsystem at all, nothing will turn up whereas prior to that parameter change the entire ATA Secure Mode subsystem is right there ready to do what it's designed to do.

    But that's OK, it's somewhat confusing and I understand that a ton of people, it did take me two or three reads of the ATA Secure Erase spec to fully grasp it, but your mention of the "refreshes the cells" makes me think you actually do understand it.

    The point I'm attempting to make here is this: if you buy a Crucial SSD, and use Windows 8/8.1/10 (even if you're not using the SSD for the OS drive, it doesn't matter, all that matters is attaching it and using any of the OSes when you do) will cause those OSes to disable entirely the secure mode subsystem on that SSD. It doesn't matter if you ever plan to use the ATA Secure Erase - which people really should do every now and again, honestly, especially if they decide to sell the SSDs at some point in the future - what matters is that Crucial allows this crap to happen in the first place. No other brand of SSD that I've used or tested has shown this particularly fucked up behavior of allowing the OS to disable parameters of the drive's normal operation and I consider it practically a full-on defect which Crucial ignores like it doesn't happen and yet it does.

    As for your other points:

    1) Not relevant at all since this is an entirely different type of operation and has nothing to do with wear leveling (which is what you're referring to and it's not even TRIM to be honest either, these are three completely different actions)
    2) Of course you can't secure erase an OS drive in operation, that would be silly. :)
     
  9. Dermen

    Dermen Limp Gawd

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    Sorry, you are right. I've not kept up with secure erase once trim and garbage collection became standard. Crucial drives will switch from ata spec to edrive spec and disable secure erase. However, PSID reset will turn it back to ata spec and will run a secure erase command immediately after. From what I read Crucial didn't have a PSID reset utility for the first 6-8 months after edrive support was added and they would allow you to RMA your drive to reset it. Their utility was released in Jan 2015 though so it is no longer an issue.

    I haven't ran secure erase since the first gen x25-m, I'm so glad we don't have to do that crap all the time anymore.
     
  10. Tiberian

    Tiberian DILLIGAFuck

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    Newegg through eBay, yes even on the Canuckian site:

    https://www.ebay.ca/itm/302613929177

    (Approximately C $131.69)

    No idea how long it'll last. Kinda sucks 'cause the 250GB 860 EVO I got just 2 weeks ago was $94.99 USD (and this one is $99.99), damn. :D
     
  11. FenFox

    FenFox [H]Lite

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    What is Windows 8/8.1/10?
    And ATA Secure Erase?
    I've never done an ATA Secure Erase on my SSDs?

    Anyway, I paid the difference and got the Samsung. Hope I don't regret my decision. I know Samsung's are good, but some people were posting negative comments about this particular Samsung SSD. I guess I'll wait and see.
     
  12. Denpepe

    Denpepe Gawd

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    Well for SSD's I'm usually Samsung = intel > Crucial > rest

    I have used or still use Samsung 850 EVO, 750 EVO, 860 EVO and 960 EVO and no issues with any so far (knocks on wood)

    I actually went Samsung after I had issues with a Crucial drive dissapear from my system from time to time, shop did not sell them anymore and refunded me after which I went samsung.

    Also used a couple of intel ones without issue, my dad's pc still rocks one.

    ps he meant windows 8, windows 8.1 and windows 10
     
  13. likeman

    likeman Limp Gawd

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    bit silly Crucial is pre enabling eDrive support as that can cause all sorts of issues later on

    secure erase does more then TRIM like windows does, everything gets reset all space is TRIMed and Page and encryption keys are reset (even if you have not set a ATA password as all SED supported disks are already encrypted), as thats why it only takes 1-2 minutes to secure erase a SED drive (same with normal HDDs that have SED drive) but hours on drives that lack SED

    Note samsung secure erase may seem to have completed right away (seems to finish like 3 seconds after you run it), but its tasked as a background operation on the SSD and starts a mass TRIM command which can take a bit of time (about 5 minutes on TLC based drives) so performance can be slow just after a secure erase for short time
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018 at 10:38 PM
  14. Dermen

    Dermen Limp Gawd

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    Crucial enables edrive so that you can enable hardware encryption. Other drives require you to install a utility to enable edrive before you can enable hardware encryption. Crucial probably believes more of their users will use hardware encryption than secure erase.
     
  15. likeman

    likeman Limp Gawd

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    Guess I never seen any of my crucial ssds enable eDrive as the requirements have never been met on my systems I have got (eDrive only enables if the requirements are met)

    I thought eDrive only fully taken effect after you turned on bit locker (or encryption on in home version if shown in the info page of metro setting page)