Samsung 500T // Clover Trail review

[pelo]

http://hothardware.com/Reviews/Inte...-Windows-8-Tablet-Performance-Preview/?page=1

So the old D525 13W netbook Atom performs roughly on par with this new Clover Trail at a much lower TDP. The efficiency improvements here by Intel have been fantastic, particularly considering that the old D525 was on 45nm and these are 32nm, so the upcoming 22nm Atoms should look even better. Bear in mind that this is a 2 core 4 thread architecture just like the D525. Floating point hasn't really budged but integer operations have been bumped up.

Unfortunately, if people were looking for snappier performance from these new Atoms they're not going to find it. It performs just like your old netbook Atom with an Ion nVidia GPU but at a lower TDP.

The memory subsystem/IMC hasn't drastically improved either.

Sunspider looks awesome, but this is a Java benchmark and that traditionally works much better on x86 than it does on ARM due to years of optimization, so take these results with a grain of salt.

Browsermark represents a more level playing field and shows the Atom on par with the Tegra 3 in the Surface RT tablets.

Here we can see that Clover Trail is barely breaking a sweat, playing back HD video with only about 25% CPU utilization

The new decoders have helped with 1080p playback.

In this test configuration we're looking at CPU utilization on the Atom Z2760 SoC as it not only decodes 1080p HD Flash video from Youtube but also as the 802.11n WiFi network adapter in the tablet is being exercised as well. Here we see a bit more workload on the system with about 50% of the CPU resources consumed. Under this condition the Samsung ATIV was still able to easily switch back and forth between the Windows 8 desktop and the Metro start screen, as well as open other applications like weather and Bing news, without skipping a beat. As an aside, the ASUS Vivo Tab RT with its Tegra 3 chip at the helm, clocked in at 1.2GHz with the same video stream and showed ~ 60% CPU utilization.

So still roughly on par with a Tegra 3.

Check out how aggressive Intel's S0i3 P-state is.

That's idle at your typical C6

That's the die with the new S0i3 state! Craziness. The idle power consumption is absolutely tiny, though that only applies when the device is in a deep sleep state meaning nothing else is on (WiFi, the display, GPU, etc.) Awesome

_____________________________

For those looking for better-than-netbook level performance at reasonable prices for these new hybrid tablets, you should really be waiting for AMD's Kabini or waiting until 2014 when Intel introduces their all new Atom architecture. The 17W ULV Ivy Bridge parts will offer substantially more performance and if you want one of these new hybrids and can pitch in an extra $300-$500, I'd highly recommend it especially if you're looking for a decent performer. An even better option would be waiting until Q1/Q2 2013 to see what Haswell and Temash/Kabini will bring to this space. Those of you looking to buy a capable Atom tablet on the cheap will have to wait another year.

The positives:
The Atom finally has smooth 1080p playback due to its new decoder! Rejoice!
Pretty good PowerVR GPU that can handle very light gaming at reduced settings
x86 compatibility for cheap
ARM-like battery life
Netbook level performance with a much lighter TDP
Optimized for Win8 so Metro applications should do okay

The negatives:
It's still very much the same netbook level performance of old
Gets outperformed by modern ARM architectures
The on-die GPU is still behind Apple's latest and greatest
GPU only DX10.1 capable. The drivers may be handled by a 3rd party like previous non-Intel GPUs, so I'd be a bit wary here and keep an eye out for user reviews regarding drivers.
The 4 threads help but with any multitasking expect to hit high CPU utilization
Expect tablet-level gaming performance

I'll be updating this thread as I find more info. Additional links below
http://www.umpcportal.com/2012/11/review-samsung-ativ-smart-pc-500t/
http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Processors/Intel-Atom-Z2760-Clover-Trail-Details-SoC-Built-Tablets

 

[Impulse]

Good stuff there, though I think the comment about getting outperformed by current ARM architectures deserves a qualifier... Tegra 3 isn't any faster, so if you're cross shopping this against current WinRT tablets it's something of a moot point. We might never see an S4/S4 Pro WinRT device, and A15 parts are still very much in the air.

I want a hybrid Win 8 x86 device, as an upgrade from my current netbook (and as a complement to a small Android tablet, so the higher res the better).. And I'd actually be okay with Atom level performance, but it just feels wrong to upgrade to a device that's no faster than something I've owned for years. I don't mind paying the premium for Core i ULV devices either, I might pay twice as much but I'd probably get a higher res device that would last me twice as long.

ULV Ivy device launches are kinda all over the place right now tho, with MS still keeping Surface Pro pricing close to the vest and whatnot. I'm definitely gonna wait it out for second gen Haswell devices. Hopefully by next year we'll have a better idea just how much of an improvement the next Atom will be at the $600 price point, and whether AMD's ever gonna gain any sort of traction here.

Intel's actually left AMD a pretty sizeable window, question is whether they'll be able to come out with the right performance/efficiency mix and lure OEMs like they've done with Brazos etc.

 

[pelo]

Good stuff there, though I think the comment about getting outperformed by current ARM architectures deserves a qualifier... Tegra 3 isn't any faster, so if you're cross shopping this against current WinRT tablets it's something of a moot point. We might never see an S4/S4 Pro WinRT device, and A15 parts are still very much in the air.

I think the deciding factor here that may weigh in x86's favor is that the RT win8 license costs more than double the regular x86 Win8 license due to MS bundling Office onto the RT SKU. ~$85 for the OS on a tablet/hybrid that's using an SoC costing half of the OS really puts into perspective MS's favoring of x86 in this space despite the current paltry performance of the lower tier chips. If we do see A15 or Snapdragon 4 powered Win8 tablets they'll likely be a bit more expensive than the Atoms because of that.

Intel's actually left AMD a pretty sizeable window, question is whether they'll be able to come out with the right performance/efficiency mix and lure OEMs like they've done with Brazos etc.

I think so, but it'll depend on what AMD is offering at sub-10W levels. Temash is the ~4.5W SoC while Kabini stretches to 25W. They should be priced well and offer decent performance, but the question is how much performance does Temash have to offer?

Here's a bit more info on the next gen Intel Atom SoC:

out-of-order execution with 64-bit compatibility and Intel HD-based graphics should provide a healthy bump in performance all around, with most of it on the graphics end. It looks like an awesome SoC but it's not due until 2014 so we'll have a long wait

Intel has been uncharacteristically tight-lipped regarding Atom's improvements and their roadmap. Usually they release a whole slew of slides when they've got a new architecture and chip released (and often months prior to release) but with Clover Trail, which has already been released, they've yet to show much of anything. If more slides and articles pop up I'll post them here.

-- removed AMD's Jaguar core and going to put that in another thread.

 

[pelo]

Another 500T review.

In Desktop mode, responsiveness and performance are great until you actually try to do something. Even small tasks, like simultaneously playing a video file while moving the mouse, lag noticeably. We couldn’t, for example, keep the Task Manager open while playing either of our high end Star Trek encodes. Attempting to manage both windows at once, even with one of them minimized, was too much for the 500T.

Desktop gaming is also out. While the 500T may be theoretically compatible with x86 games, the SGX545 can’t handle anything recent. Even Torchlight, in 640×480 netbook mode, with all details at their lowest values, was barely able to manage a mid-teens frame rate.

The nearly constant lag turns x86 software compatibility into more of a bullet point technicality than it really ought to be. It’s the sort of situation that might be fixable via driver updates, or might be a symptom of an underlying hardware bottleneck.

Not surprisingly to those who've been keeping track of Intel's Atom improvements, or more succinctly the lack thereof, the Clover Trail SoC lacks horsepower both in CPU and GPU.

That’s a major problem. As much as Samsung might like to position the system as a tablet with an optional dock, it’s ridiculously underpowered compared to the laptops in its price bracket. The instant-on premise is demolished by network problems, the prospect of doing Real Work is nuked by desktop lag, performance stuttering, and a ludicrously small amount of storage.

If all these issues were resolved, this tablet might be worth $549. That’s a $120 premium over the current crop of high-end 10.1-inch (1024×600) Atom netbooks, which typically use the N2600 (1.6GHz, dual-core) and an SGX545 GPU. Then again, those systems still ship with 2-3 USB ports and 320-500GB of storage.

What would I do? Wait. At the very least, wait and see if Samsung, Intel, and Microsoft can resolve the desktop performance lag and the wireless issues. Wait and see if Samsung does anything about available storage, or even acknowledges the problem. The Ativ gets some things right, but far too much of what’s billed as basic functionality doesn’t work or comes with caveats. Some of these issues very much extend to Surface, which is why I’m not waving it around as the alternative must-have. Some of them, like the network problems, don’t.

Benchmarks don't lie, heatless. For those wanting a cheap and capable laptop/tablet hybrid, I'd highly suggest waiting until we see A15-based SoCs (for those wanting ARM) or Temash/Kabini SoCs and 2014 will usher in some much better Intel Atoms. The current Atom is still that same ol' Atom

http://www.extremetech.com/mobile/141317-samsungs-ativ-500t-not-the-tablet-youve-been-waiting-for

 

[Impulse]

I'm not trying to defend Atom, but the desktop lag/responsiveness issues that ExtremeTech describes sound like an issue with GPU drivers rather than a general Atom performance issue. I can easily play a video on my old as dust single core Atom netbook without the whole thing becoming unusable... The desktop UI doesn't generally lag for no reason either (unless I'm multi tasking very heavily), I've still got Win 7 on it tho, dunno about 8.

The fact that it might be a driver issue is actually more worrisome than anything tho. I think Atom would be fine for a lot of people's basic needs, but that's a third party GPU on Clover Trail... Between that and Microsoft's focus on the Metro side of things I wouldn't be surprised if Intel never gets the drivers up to snuff on the desktop side, pretty sad to see a whole SoC platform be let down by drivers as much as anything.

Storage issues are manageable IMO, the Wifi connection issues ET describes are also worrying tho.

 

[pelo]

The 3rd party GPU also means 3rd party drivers, so like the issues Intel faced with drivers in their other SoCs which featured 3rd party GPUs, these PowerVR-provided GPUs look to be much of the same.

It should perform relatively well in the Metro environment, but they're still not up to snuff in the desktop environment. I still think that the best Win8 tablet experience may be a strictly Metro one with an ARM-based device, though MS's insistence on bundling Office and its ~$85 license detracts from its appeal.

 

[Impulse]

They had to do something in order to sell them at $500+ and still compete with Android/iOS tho (from a practical standpoint and in the pubic's eye)... I'm not sure that was the best route but I dunno what else they could've done. They're probably also trying to milk it while there's still a growing market.

I just don't think any ARM tablets regardless of OS are gonna be able to sustain those price points in the long term, it might take a year or two but there will be a shift or saturation point (like with netbooks), unless Intel prices the next Atom too high and AMD fails...

In which case x86 will have failed to compete due to Intel/AMD's lack of execution. That'd be sad, and ironic for Intel.

 

[pelo]

Well, MS had to price them with enough wiggle room for OEMs to compete. They can't undercut the OEMs and expect for them to get behind them with a whole variety of Win8 products and embrace its release. Some of them are already quite ticked off at MS for releasing a competing product at all, the fact that they're bundling the ARM-based RT license with Office makes it even worse as far as pricing is concerned.

It'd be interesting to see what Intel is charging for Clover Trail SoCs. The few Win8 x86 devices using Win8 products are all far too expensive. I doubt it's priced high, but if you tack on the Win8 x86 license plus a potential x86 license, that could have deterred quite a few OEMs from dedicating any resources and engineers to making these products, instead opting to see how the few that do trickle out sell before they dive in head first. If that's the case, I can't really blame them.

 

[pelo]

Another review on Gizmodo

 

[wrxdrunkie]

Wow this is impressive. Battery life on par with ARM with legacy app support. I just ordered the Acer W510 and have the Surface also so I will be interested to see the differences. Something that is interesting in the Gizmodo review is that the thing is basically unusable while downloading a file. That is not the case at all with the Surface. I wonder what is causing the slow down while downloading files.

 

[heatlesssun]

Something that is interesting in the Gizmodo review is that the thing is basically unusable while downloading a file.

Which is not at my case. I'm downloading the Windows 8 x86 ISO in desktop IE 10 from MSDN right now and writing this post with the digital pen using the handwriting recognition in the onscreen keyboard using Metro IE 10 and it's perfectly smooth. Looking at the task manager I do see spikes to 85% CPU while inking, the handwriting recognition can be pretty CPU intensive but still running smoothly.

In any case something isn't kosher about this review as I can easily replicate their scenarios without the issues they are seeing.

 

[pelo]

Which is not at my case. I'm downloading the Windows 8 x86 ISO in desktop IE 10 from MSDN right now and writing this post with the digital pen using the handwriting recognition in the onscreen keyboard using Metro IE 10 and it's perfectly smooth. Looking at the task manager I do see spikes to 85% CPU while inking, the handwriting recognition can be pretty CPU intensive but still running smoothly.

In any case something isn't kosher about this review as I can easily replicate their scenarios without the issues they are seeing.

Can you at least provide us with benchmarks? You claim to have all of these devices yet provide nothing of merit yourself. If I had it I'd definitely at least let people know how it performed.

Run Cinebench 10. Sandra, Sunspider... run something

 

[heatlesssun]

When I've talked about Windows 8 it's been in the context of things I've used. I've run a lot of these benchmarks and I'm seeing the same numbers as others, I've not disputed those numbers. Synthetic benchmarks mean little to most people, what's FAR more important is real world use and since I use the device in the real world I that what I've talked about.

What I was pointing out in the Gizmodo review wasn't even related to a benchmark, the reviewer said that he couldn't download a file in a desktop browser and do anything else as the machine was maxed out and that's simply not been in my experience in a month using this device, I done this very same thing a number of times on this device and didn't have these performance issues.

 

[Impulse]

ExtremeTech's review had similar comments regarding multi-tasking tho, I dunno when the reviews were done and what updates the devices have seen since then... The amount/quality of most of the reviews I've seen is as terrible as the release execution on the manufacturer's part. It's like everyone's walking on eggshells when it comes to anything remotely related to x86 and a convertible/hybrid design. Kinda bizarre but not altogether unexpected given the environment MS has created for OEMs.

 

[heatlesssun]

If you want good reviews of the Ativ 500, there's a number of decent YouTube videos out there that show the device in action. If I find some time I may do one addressing multitasking because it does seem like some of these reviewers need to double check what's going on with their systems. No way a simply file download should cause such a dramatic hit to performance. Heck I even went back and did that Windows 8 x86 download while playing Angry Birds Start Wars and it worked fine.

No this device isn't a speed demon but it plenty capable of handling common multitasking scenarios without a problem.

 

[heatlesssun]

A couple of things I've noted with this device in the last week. The issue performance issue with establishing a WiFi connection at boot seems to be related to the Bluetooth stack. When the internal BT radio is turned off, the WiFi connects in a timely manner with no issue. I've noticed that when using the internal BT radio to connect to a mouse, there is lag when more activity is occurring.

I'm currently using a Targus USB Bluetooth dongle, one of the miniature kinds, and it works MUCH better than the internal BT radio. Range for speakers and headsets is much greater and there's no dropped audio, even when the WiFi is churning downloading large files.

Also audio will sometimes stop, about once a day if I'm using the machine extensively, that looks to be an issue with an Intel power management driver. Disabling and re-enabling the Intel WDM audio driver will restore sound.

The WiFi/BT conflict can be a problem if you need BT, the dongle does take up the USB port but the range is so much better that I've just been keeping it plugged in and it doesn't seem to effect battery life.

So some bugs to work out with drivers and firmware, nothing new here. I really like this thing though, it is the first Windows x86 tablet I've ever had that can easily go a full workday on a single charge. For a lot of people this kind of device could prove to be very useful if you just things like office automation and other medium load desktop applications.

 

[Shadohh]

Actually I can see why a simple file download can hit the cpu hard. This goes back the eMMC controller. I think it uses alot of cpu to do its job. When I start playing 1080p flash I have like 50% cpu usage. When the buffering is done the usage drops down below 10%.

Either the eMMC or Wifi is hitting the cpu hard.

I havea few wifi usb controllers. I could try them and see if that makes a difference and isolate the problem to the wifi or emmc.

^^ Reason why x86 tablet owns. I can use usb devices

**note, this device is getting frequent updates every week. I am sure these issues will be solved as time goes by. I am on my 2nd bios update and multiple touch driver updates.

 

[RavenZero]

One thing that does indeed bog down my ARM Android tablet and on my Galaxy Nexus is downloading bit torrent file transfers at 500 kB/s and faster. Could this be what the Gizmodo guy was referring to? Many mid to higher end ARM devices do indeed become nearly unusable under such circumstances. It's hard to believe that a newer Atom based machine would have such issues if drivers are updated considering that even the lowliest of older net books had no such problems in the past--even running 5400rpm mechanical hard drives, much less SSDs. Has anyone tested the theory using utorrent or any such software on one of these Clover Trail tablets?

 

[heatlesssun]

I've got the Slacker Radio radio Metro client running, writing this message with ink to handwriting conversion using IE 10 Metro while doing a uTorrent download and everything is perfectly smooth.

I'm not convinced that everyone has updated these things properly when reporting some of these problems. A whole new batch of drivers just came out Friday as well and seems to have fixed most of issues with WiFi and Bluetooth that I was experiencing.

 

[RavenZero]

Good to know. Thanks.