“Rogue One” Reviewed: Is It Time To Abandon The “Star Wars” Franchise?

Discussion in 'HardForum Tech News' started by Megalith, Dec 17, 2016.

  1. CSI_PC

    CSI_PC 2[H]4U

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    I also like the episodes with Darth Maul and the Witches, the Death Watch (and their special swords),etc.
    And yeah really was great what they did with the story arc regarding Darth Vader and Asoka.

    1st bunch of episodes start slow but more to get to grips with the characters and feel on how the galaxy is after the Emperor takes control of the galaxy.
    Cheers
     
  2. Dan_D

    Dan_D [H]ard as it Gets

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    There is no evidence that clone troopers had any substantial issues with instability compared to the average Stormtrooper. Clone trooper production was suspended because the Jango Fett DNA sample was beginning to degrade and they couldn't much more out of the sample. Additionally, the training, housing and production of clone troopers was prohibitively expensive to continue and couldn't be justified in a post-war Galactic Empire. (Star Wars: The Clone Wars) Clones who fought with the Stormtroopers and later against them (Star Wars: Rebels) stated that Stormtrooper armor, equipment and training was vastly inferior to even the average clone trooper. There is no one that would have believed the volunteers would have been more loyal than the clone troopers. While there are a couple examples of traitorous clone troopers (Star Wars: The Clone Wars) and in the expanded universe, the reality is that conscripted troopers or those volunteers you speak of often defected in large numbers to form the Rebel Alliance to Restore the Republic. (Star Wars: Rebels, Star Wars: A New Hope) The canon sources alone tell you this.

    Stories of clone instability or disloyalty are still rather isolated and were largely at the end of the war. Furthermore, damn near all of those cases (sources) are in the expanded universe and aren't canon any longer.

    I think the First Order is more or less based on the various ideas and conspiracy theories about Nazi's escaping World War II. Moreover, I think that this is an adaption of the Imperial Remnant from the expanded universe. It never made any sense for people to volunteer and sign up for the First Order in a post-Galactic Civil War galaxy. Therefore I think the conscription through abduction and brainwashing makes a lot of sense. The Empire still had to pay its troops unlike the Republic who had bred the Clones for service and treating them as property. The First Order obviously lacks the finances that the Empire had given that the Starkiller base was most likely much less expensive to produce than either Death Star. Kylo Ren's flagship is larger and almost certainly more powerful than the average Imperial Star Destroyer but it isn't as expensive or large as the Super Star Destroyer was. That ship might even be a left over from the Empire. TIE fighters now have shields and a gunner's position with far more systems including full life support. It suggests that they don't consider pilots or soldiers nearly as disposable as the Empire did.

    I think its unfair to judge the Force Awakens without the rest of the trilogy. You can't think about the Force Awakens as a single self-contained film because it isn't. If you think back to the first time you might have seen Episode IV or watch it now objectively there is a lot of dialog that makes no sense without context. The Clone Wars are mentioned with absolutely no back story. The conflict between Darth Vader, Obi-Wan and Anakin Skywalker isn't fleshed out in any way. The back story of how the Rebels got the Death Star plans isn't there either. Vader mentions them being beamed to the ship but that doesn't make sense if the station is already built. With Rogue One now in play even that makes far more sense. The flaw in the station's reason for being there and the Empire knowing that those plans likely revealed a weakness adds necessary context. Like Episode IV, it isn't perfect when evaluated objectively or on its own. But I think we may see the film in a different light once all the pieces are in place. I think its probable that the overall plot will shape up in such a way as to make Episode VII look less like a remake of Episode IV than it currently does. I think those parallels will always be drawn and that comparison is certainly valid, but in hindsight I think we'll see this film differently. In a way Star Wars has always been about coming full circle and history repeating itself. The way Episode VII was done makes some sense in that context. Again we'll need to see how it shapes up over the long haul. People slamming it now do have some valid complaints but I think they are being unnecessarily harsh about a story we simply don't know the extent of.
     
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  3. Ducman69

    Ducman69 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    In the cartoon they showed some of the clones a little off their rocker, and there was a clone rebellion against the empire from long necked aliens that had the technology to produce them, which meant they were only as loyal as they were made to be. That's where I got that, but its confusing keeping track of it all.
    Abduction and brainwashing of children is technically what the Jedi do too though, and why they don't even want to train anyone with their advanced combat skills unless they are young enough, in order to be properly brainwashed by the Jedi to do their bidding.

    My problem with the representation of the First Order is that they are TOO evil.

    Nazis for example never thought of themselves as evil, and most were very altruistic willing to sacrifice themselves for the greater good of their people, rid themselves of the parasites they viewed as praying on and victimizing their people, and wanted to build a glorious empire, very much inspired by Imperial Rome that brought civilization, technology, unity, and order to Europe (before that, it was mostly small tribal kingdoms, many with very backwards beliefs, lawlessness, and inter-warfare between them, whereas after they had peace, roads, bridges, irrigation, healthcare, literacy, mathematics, and all the advantages that came with joining civilized Roman culture). But the first order... they are not IMO how Romans or Japanese or Nazi imperialists acted but how ENEMIES viewed the Nazis as a type of boogieman embodied in flesh whose only ambition is to destroy and be evil for its own sake. Or same with imperial Japan if you want to compare the Empire with its emperor worship to that, its not how Japanese saw themselves which totally makes logical sense from that perspective, but how American propaganda would have painted the Japanese, which only makes sense as propaganda and not human nature.

    BTW, speaking of Japanese, I think its a misconception based on video games that Tie Fighters are weak and expendable ships.

    In all the original movies, if you watch, the tie fighters kick the ass of rebel fighters for the most part, with the x-wings always getting flanked and screaming that they can't shake the superior agility of the tie fighters before getting blown to bits. The Japanese zero for example wasn't pressurized, didn't have self-sealing fuel tanks, or armor for the pilot, but it wasn't because the Japanese didn't value their pilots, but because it made for a lighter and more maneuverable aircraft. America's fighters of the same period as the zero's design were completely unable to compete at the start of WW2, and the Japanese had a far superior kill ratio. I think the idea of tie fighters being cheap and pilots expendable is not because of movies but because of video games where you'd often play as the rebels and tie fighters were just target practice fodder for the player.
     
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  4. naib

    naib [H]ard|Gawd

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    The original clone troopers, as seen in Ep2 took years to mature but were stupidly superior to anything out there. They however aged quite fast (see starwars: rebels where Rex, a generate clone has aged...).
    To mitigate the time it took to "grow" a clone and equally to diversities the supply(re. Kamino rebellion as well as the original Jango sample was degrading ) a different technique was used but these produced significantly inferior troopers.
    Over time constriction from the general population weeded out these clones.
    StarWars:TFA took this a step further with the training from birth via kidnapping to gain the benefit of the life training but none of the accelerated aging of kamino clones
     
  5. Dan_D

    Dan_D [H]ard as it Gets

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    TIE fighters in the films are only effective because they outnumber the rebel ships by large quantities. TIE fighters are usually destroyed in a single hit. While many X-Wings or Y-Wings blew up a single well place hit, many times they also survived more than one hit. Even when we don't see this on screen specifically, there is evidence to support that based on the condition of the Rebel ships shown in the bases. Haphazard and rushed repairs are evident on nearly all of the fighters. We see that pilot attrition is relatively low for Rebel pilots. We see a few of them die of course but several of them are present across at least four films. As more canon material is added the number of missions those pilots endured will increase. Survival of these pilots can only come down to one of two things or a combination of two things. Superior fighter design or superior combat skill. Its stated in Rebels specifically that TIE fighters have no shields where the Rebel ships do. This has to contribute to pilot survival and therefore experience to some degree.

    I have to conclude that inferior, cheaply produced TIE fighters contribute to higher rates of pilot attrition. Also Imperial pilots probably only engaged rebels on a few occasions unless they were part of a group that routinely saw action. The bulk of them galaxy wide probably rarely if ever encountered Rebel pilots. With a lack of experience and poor equipment leading to high rates of attrition I think it stands to reason Imperial pilots were both not as good as their Rebel counterparts and their equipment was worse. The TIE fighters in The Force Awakens are clearly a different animal than they are in the Imperial area.
     
  6. CSI_PC

    CSI_PC 2[H]4U

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    Agree with all you said.
    On this point the story arc related to the order 66 chip going wrong in some of the clone troopers, explained in some episodes where they actioned too quickly without activation and also have other side effects; I cannot remember which episodes this was but it was in several of them relating to Clone Wars animation, I think one was a friend of Rex.
    Cheers
    Edit:
    Yep quick search brought this up: http://www.starwarsunderworld.com/2014/03/clone-wars-review-order-66-arc.html
     
  7. Dan_D

    Dan_D [H]ard as it Gets

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    That was "Fives" that went off the rails in that episode. I believe there may have been more than one trooper that had that problem, but those cases were again very much isolated in nature.
     
  8. Ducman69

    Ducman69 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I still think they were made to mirror the Japanese emphasis on maneuverability over armor, since much of Star Wars is inspired by WW2. Supposedly the rebels did the same with the old A-wings to keep it competitive against the Tie fighters, taking out the hyper-drive and shields to make it quicker and more maneuverable. But just to add that the Tie Advanced and Tie Interceptors and Tie Bombers DID have shields, but I think no hyperdrive which saved weight for more speed/maneuverability.

    IMO:

    X-Wing = P-38 Lightning, a big heavy but well armored and heavy firepower very long distance striker, that was a fighter that could still do ground target attacks.
    Y-Wing = P-47 Thunderbolt, an even bigger heavier long distance striker, that was more emphasized on ground targets then fighting, but could fight as long as it didn't get into a turning fight with a nimble Tie.

    Tie-Fighter = AMG Zero, which had no self-sealing fuel tanks or armor plating for the pilot, but thanks to its light weight it was more maneuverable and had a 2:1 kill ratio early in the war
    Tie-Interceptor = Focke-Wulf Fw-190
    Tie-Advanced = Messerschmitt Bf-109
    Tie-Bomber = Junkers 87 Stuka
     
  9. lcpiper

    lcpiper [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Or, the column can rotate when needed.

    And what if the arm/claw system is designed so that tapes can be removed and replaced without actually having to give the operator physical access to them, or limit physical access by permissions, ie... a normal admin can only move the tapes around, but can't place a tape in the "out box" but a senior admin or two admins together can actually remove a tape from the facility.

    Just ideas from the world of real IT.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2017
  10. Dan_D

    Dan_D [H]ard as it Gets

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    Keep in mind that we can only count Star Wars films and TV shows as official canon. There are some comics and novels that now fit the canon since they were introduced after Disney bought Lucasfilm. I haven't read those so I'm going off canon sources (TV and film) alone.

    There is no evidence to suggest TIE interceptors have shields. They blow up in a single hit in most cases just like any other TIE fighter. TIE fighters (standard, interceptor or bombers) surviving hits are extremely rare and any time it happens those hits are glancing blows at best. I don't believe any TIE Interceptor has ever been shown surviving a hit but standard TIE's occasionally have. Through observation alone it would seem that TIE fighters have light armor if anything at all, at least in the Rebellion era. Older in-universe / expanded universe explanations for the design decisions used to cover this topic with absolute clarity but now we can only infer similar explanations through observation unless dialog or scenes establish or cement these statements or concepts as fact. Originally it was stated that these fighters were built to mimic the Jedi Starfighters like the Eta2 Actis interceptors flown late I the Clone Wars. The Jedi had great success for two reasons: 1.) The Force. 2.) Low pilot attrition rates. The Empire adopted a fighter with these principles in mind for cost reasons and due to how effective they were in the Clone Wars. Unfortunately, the TIE pilots lack Force sensitivity as a whole and have high attrition rates. TIE fighters are lightly armed compared to their Rebel counterparts. This is shown in canon sources so while the old reasoning isn't cemented in canon now, we can still infer similar explanations for TIE designs and the decisions which led to them.

    The cases of the other fighters are a bit easier to to reconcile. The standard TIE fighter does not have shields. This is explicitly stated in Star Wars: Rebels. There is no refuting this, it is fact. The TIE Advanced x1 flown by Darth Vader is implied to have shields but it is never expressly shown to have them the way X-Wings and Y-Wings have been. It is likely that it does have shields given it survived a collision with a standard TIE fighter but again this isn't stated for certain. There is a momentary flash in the footage during the collision in the Death Star trench if I recall correctly. This may be partial confirmation but more likely it was used as a practical way to avoid showing the actual contact in the film footage. I am not certain, but I don't believe that the Inquisitor's TIE advanced fighters have shields either. They never have been shown using them and its never stated if they do or not in any dialog. On the subject of the TIE Bomber, it makes sense for them to have shields but again there is nothing in any canon material to suggest that they do. The fuselage is obviously beefier and they may be more durable than their fighter cousins but again we have no evidence that they have shields in any canon sources.

    The subject of hyperdrives is much more clear cut. TIE Advanced x1 and the TIE's used by the Inquisitors have been confirmed on screen as having hyperdrives. The bombers and other TIE fighters do not have hyperdrives. This can be evidenced by the fact that they never attempt to chase Rebels into hyperspace, returning to a carrier or transport of some kind to do so. They've shown in canon sources that trajectory prediction can be used to track vessels into hyperspace. Even if the TIE pilots can't do it, the mother ship could and then relay coordinates for fighters to give chase. Every single time you see a TIE fighter in all of Star Wars canon the thing always comes from a planetary base or a mother ship of some kind. We have never seen a TIE fighter, stolen or otherwise go into hyperspace that wasn't either a TIE Advanced x1 or an Inquisitor's TIE fighter.

    You guys who know a lot about the EU have to put that knowledge aside for the most part. It isn't valid until its confirmed in the new canon. There are times where you can see what part of the EU the new material draws inspiration from but even so you have to be wary of the details because they are still often contradictory or completely different. We can sometimes infer certain EU explanations for certain things in the new canon but those could be disproven at any time.
     
  11. CSI_PC

    CSI_PC 2[H]4U

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    Yeah agreed and there were a couple of other episodes including some where some chips were removed such as Rex and co or were inferred, it fits with what you said "Stories of clone instability or disloyalty are still rather isolated and were largely at the end of the war".
    It was infrequent enough that it could be covered up and became more rumour than large scale mutiny.
    Like you just going by Lucasfilm animations/films rather than expanded universe.

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2017
  12. nilepez

    nilepez [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Never mind that Jedi is in many ways a remake of A New Hope. I liked VII. I understand the complaints, but I don't really care and honestly I the big shocker shocked me. I can't remember if I felt the same when Obi Wan kicked it, but I certainly cared.

    One thing I think that is lacking in Rogue One is that I don't care as much about these characters. I like them, but their death didn't bug me all that much. Maybe it's because I knew that they'd probably die going into it #shrug
     
  13. CSI_PC

    CSI_PC 2[H]4U

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    You probably aware but worth checking online on youtube where they show close-up of the temple entrance at the end, and the big question regarding Ahsoka (being vague so as not to give away spoilers).

    More current, Rebels has now introduced Saw Garrera (Forrest Whitaker is also doing the voice acting in the animation) from Rogue One.
    My main gripe is that considering its timeline is now only roughly 2 years away from him in Rogue One I thought they made him look a bit young, but this is before he became truly battle scarred.
    Cheers
     
  14. harmattan

    harmattan [H]ardness Supreme

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    I'm pretty much as jaded a movie-goer as it gets. I thought TFA was mediocre at best, was devoid of heart, was wholly derivative and included every stupid, cliche trope you could think of. I really enjoyed Rogue One and thought it was a quality film. Great, focused plot (albeit some pacing issues) and some of the best visual in a sci-fi film to date. I'm still on the fence with the CGI characters (they were entirely noticeable despite what anyone says). Would definitely recommend paying $12 to see it on the big screen.

    As for people "walking out crying" that's a bit ridiculous for anyone over 5 years old, but it still was entertaining and had a hell of a lot more heart than most other sci-fi films. My main gripe was there was quite a bit of cringe-worthy fan service, the sort of bowl-shuddering nonsense you could imagine a room full of odorific geeks at a convention gushing over while giving each other nods of approval.
     
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  15. Smashing Young Man

    Smashing Young Man [H]ard|Gawd

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    On the CGI characters, it is strange how some folks didn't realize they were CGI, and some noticed right away. I had an instant ewwww! reaction the first time Tarkin appeared. I'm curious why some picked up on it and some didn't. For instance, I wonder if people who didn't notice tend to avoid eye contact in real life; if they're not as good at reading people's facial expressions; if they tend to fall under particular psychological profiles or whatever. I think it would make for interesting study actually.
     
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  16. Ducman69

    Ducman69 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Crying usually happens when people start fantasizing that they are the character, not so much empathy for the character. So if you're say a teenage girl and are fantasizing wish-fulfillment of being buck-toothed Felicity Jones, then when she dies its dramatic and personal for you.
    Are you one of the people that notices when a car has a crushed quarter panel one moment in a scene, and a second later its perfectly fine, only to be crushed again later? Remember, in Dark Knight Rises, during the entire film not a single gun actually cycles and ejects a casing, despite all the shooting they do including very close up shots. That bothers the hell out of me, but some people are just oblivious apparently, lol!
     
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  17. Dan_D

    Dan_D [H]ard as it Gets

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    Saw Garrera was first shown in The Clone Wars.
     
  18. MavericK

    MavericK Zero Cool

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    Yeah....to me it was obvious immediately, but I have a hard time quantifying why it looks like CGI. I think it has to do with the animations (too "smooth"?) and the overall lighting/subsurface scattering on the skin.

    I don't tend to be a person to nitpick cinematography or notice inconsistencies between scenes, though I do tend to nitpick plot holes...*shrug*
     
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  19. htpc_user

    htpc_user [H]ard|Gawd

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    Since the events of A New Hope follow right behind the end of Rogue One, and it was pointed out that the Ghost ship was seen in Rogue One and also that Chopper was seen and a comment towards Hera could be heard, are we to assume that the characters from Rebels are still alive during the events of A New Hope? Or do you think they will tie that up somewhere along the way where only Hera and Chopper have survived?
     
  20. CSI_PC

    CSI_PC 2[H]4U

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    Yep not disagreeing, just pointing out he was introduced to Rebels this month :)
    And interesting event because it is only 2 years before Rogue One and the episode shows what the Empire did to Geonosis when moving the Death Star, along with Forest Whittaker doing the voice in the Rebel's animation is kinda cool, no idea who did it originally.

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2017
  21. Armenius

    Armenius I Drive Myself to the [H]ospital

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    It's the skin textures themselves, and they still animate the face too much. The facial animations are not too smooth, per se, but it seems like they animate faces with 20 times more articulation points than need be. Both of those things combined make it look unnatural. Talk to yourself in a mirror sometime, or just be more observant of what a person's face looks like when they talk to you, and you should understand why it's instantly recognizable to some people.
     
  22. Dan_D

    Dan_D [H]ard as it Gets

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    All I can say is that Saw Gerrera has had a shitty life. In his first appearance in The Clone Wars, he was fighting to get control of his home planet from CIS forces and loses his sister in the process. Based on his appearance in Rogue One we can only conclude that things never got better for him.
     
  23. Ducman69

    Ducman69 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I also felt sympathy for Osama bin Laden, er, I mean, Saw.
    F'ing CIS white male patriarchy, man!
     
  24. htpc_user

    htpc_user [H]ard|Gawd

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    Actually the CIS was much more diverse.
     
  25. Dan_D

    Dan_D [H]ard as it Gets

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    Droid armies aside, yes they were. Officers were from a wide range of species and backgrounds.
     
  26. htpc_user

    htpc_user [H]ard|Gawd

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    The CIS were kind of the "good guys" in a way. They just wanted to break apart from the Republic because they felt it had become corrupt and did not represent them any more. The ones at the top who were manipulating it, of course, were not good but the ones breaking from the Republic and Senate thought they were doing what was best.
     
  27. MajorDomo

    MajorDomo [H]ard as it Gets

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    I'm a little late to the party, but I just picked up the BluRay on Tuesday when it was released. I watched it last night and again tonight.....long story short, I thought it was great. The story fills in the gaps of where the original movie starts out and now I understand the emotion of Mon Mothra when she spoke of the sacrifice of the Rebels who stole the plans to the Death Star, it all blends together. In my library, this one will be labeled Star Wars 3.5. I won't discuss any spoilers because I know there are others who waited until the BluRay came out to watch. Well worth the price.
     
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  28. D4rkn3ss

    D4rkn3ss 2[H]4U

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    bah it sucked! i guess the pg-13 rating meant a maximum age of 13 to be able to swallow this one.
     
  29. aokman

    aokman Gawd

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    Rogue One was the best Star Wars I have seen in a long time.
     
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  30. ManofGod

    ManofGod [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I rarely by movies on Blu ray, the Star Trek ones being the exception. However, I think I will go a buy this one to see it again, it was definitely fun to see in the movie theater. :) (I went alone last year too see 2 movies and enjoyed them both times. If I go to a theater, it is to see the movie.)
     
  31. Pringle

    Pringle 2[H]4U

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    Eh, I thought it was alright.

    There weren't any characters that really stood out to me (not including spoilers here). But the visuals were fantastic. I would maybe watch it once more and shelve it for 5 years.
     
  32. Stryke1983

    Stryke1983 Limp Gawd

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    Definitely enjoyed this more than Force Awakens. I was massively disappointed in that one, felt like I was watching a reboot of A New Hope at times. If this is the new trend for the Star Wars films it looks like I'll be paying way more attention to the stand alone films rather than the main trilogy.
     
  33. polonyc2

    polonyc2 [H]ard as it Gets

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    I liked Rogue One a lot but...

    the Vader scene at the end was great but I also was a little bit disappointed...I wanted to see Vader kill 1 or more of the main characters and not a bunch of redshirts...how awesome would it have been to see him kill Jyn and maybe a few more of the main cast...that would have done a better job of showing how ruthless he was during the peak of his powers
     
  34. Pringle

    Pringle 2[H]4U

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    Definitely agreed.

    They supposedly had this in the original script and storyboard; Vader slicing and dicing through some of the main characters on the beach.
     
  35. Stoly

    Stoly [H]ardness Supreme

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    I liked it, but its not without its flaws

    Most of them fit well, but Pomba Baba/Evazan makes no sense, and R2/C3PO cameo in Yavin when they are supposed to be with princess Leia in the Tantive IV transport

    I'm getting tired ot the (not) Jedi, "She Yoda" on FA and the Shaolinjedi on RO. It was bad already with the sith and midiclorians and this just makes it worse.
    Supposedly in the original script only part of the crew dies, with captain Cassian sacrificing himself against Vader to save Jyn
     
  36. MrTryfe

    MrTryfe Limp Gawd

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    Vader and the special effects saved this movie for me. Hearing James Earl Jones again brought back some memories. It wasn't good or bad, just meh. Felt they could've fleshed the characters backstories out just a bit more.

    The Tarkin CGI thing was impressive, but pretty darn creepy.


    I am currently watching The Clone Wars cartoon series. I remember checking it out not too long ago on CN a few years ago, but it seemed sort of childish. However, I decided to revisit it, and it has progressively gotten better with each season. Currently on season 3. It seems a bit dark for a kiddie show (if that's who it was aimed for).
     
  37. wizzi01

    wizzi01 2[H]4U

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    I agree the last 10 minutes were worth watching the whole movie.
     
  38. thekipper

    thekipper Limp Gawd

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    I found Rogue One to be a shallow movie with no character development. It was hard to get attached to the main character and stay engaged. The Force Awakens was completely opposite; it was engaging and I thought the main characters were tough and persistent.

    The nostalgia factor was much better in Force Awakens for me and it worked. Rogue One not so much. I know many people who disagree with me on this. I almost fell asleep in Rogue One.
     
  39. dgz

    dgz [H]ardness Supreme

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    Feb 15, 2010
    I watched this last week and didn't like it one bit. It's not that I liked Episode VII but the middle was kind of alright. This one was nothing but boredom. The Vader scene was such a wasted potential. He was admiring the view while choking some dudes. Now, I am no jedi expert but he seemed kind of lame. They should've thrown more dudes at him in the same timespan. That would've won me.
     
  40. {NG}Fidel

    {NG}Fidel [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    6,224
    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2005
    My and a group of friends who had not viewed the film watched it and they all loved it.