Right to repair executive order

cyclone3d

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so have i, my gas cap doesnt seal 100% all the time, big whoop. if the car shut down and refused to start until subaru cam and serviced it(tightened the cap and cleared the code), id be pissed.

Stop comparing automobiles to massive farm equipment. It isn't the same thing.

Here is a better analogy if you really want to compare automobiles to farm equipment.

Say you have a diesel engine that is putting 300+ psi into the fuel system since the injectors are mechanical and injects the diesel directly into the combustion chamber.

If the system detected a fuel leak would you rather have it shut down the vehicle or just let it keep running for a bit longer until the diesel catches fire and your vehicle burns to the ground?
 

SmokeRngs

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Nope. In fact the check engine light is on in my car right now. It is because at least one of the Catalytic converters needs to be replaced.

We don't have any type of emissions tests around here and it doesn't affect power or dual mileage so I never bothered replacing it.

Sure I believe that some stuff should be able to be replaced by the users of John Deere equipment.. just not the stuff that can cause major issues if left unchecked.

However, if the equipment is still under warranty, I would rather have the mfg service / repair my super expensive equipment instead of voiding the warranty.

There has to be some balance between the users' repairing stuff and the mfg repairing stuff.
Rules for thee but not me. That explains everything you've said so far.
 

SmokeRngs

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Stop comparing automobiles to massive farm equipment. It isn't the same thing.

Here is a better analogy if you really want to compare automobiles to farm equipment.

Say you have a diesel engine that is putting 300+ psi into the fuel system since the injectors are mechanical and injects the diesel directly into the combustion chamber.

If the system detected a fuel leak would you rather have it shut down the vehicle or just let it keep running for a bit longer until the diesel catches fire and your vehicle burns to the ground?
Here's a little info for you. Massive farm equipment has been around for decades. John Deere didn't suddenly invent massive farm equipment in the last few years and set it up so no one but them can work on it because it's somehow a ticking time bomb which will go off unless John Deere works on it.
 
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Even worse. What if the equipment expects a connection to a vendor that's updated their API and they don't feel the need to support their legacy equipment anymore. Apparently that's a problem with some of the earlier smart appliances with built in screens and stuff. They can't connect to the manufacturer anymore and there's no way to bypass anything so otherwise working stuff loses functionality.

Stop comparing automobiles to massive farm equipment. It isn't the same thing.

Here is a better analogy if you really want to compare automobiles to farm equipment.

Say you have a diesel engine that is putting 300+ psi into the fuel system since the injectors are mechanical and injects the diesel directly into the combustion chamber.

If the system detected a fuel leak would you rather have it shut down the vehicle or just let it keep running for a bit longer until the diesel catches fire and your vehicle burns to the ground?
Why? Right to repair isn't just limited to farm equipment. They're just some of the most vocal.
 

pendragon1

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that^^^ and i quoted you *someone bringing cars into the convo....

Stop comparing automobiles to massive farm equipment. It isn't the same thing.
*edit: did realize you werent who i originally replied to, cyc vs cyb...
 
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wizzi01

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I've been working on vehicles since before I was 12.

I also service and repair and even fabricate parts for my personal lawn / yard equipment.

I've rebuilt gasoline and diesel engines, transmissions, etc.

Huge diesel equipment is a whole other story though.

Say you have a turbo diesel. Say the computer detects a small oil leak into the intake. If the user just keeps resetting the code, that oil leak is eventually going to get bad enough to cause a runaway situation which at the very least can lead to a crash and at the worst lead to an engine self destructing and possibly maiming or killing someone.

There are also going to be other mechanical issues that can potentially cause maiming or death.

IMHO, John Deere has a pretty good reason to limit the repairs on their equipment.

And as for 3rd party parts for large equipment.. who exactly is going to verify that those parts are of the same quality as the genuine parts?

Would you want some crap Chinesium metal being responsible for the same type of forces that the genuine parts are?

Lmfao, you are actually saying you can fix things on your vehicles without dealer assistance, but argue the farmers can't do the same thing? Are you actually reading what you write or just trolling?
 

pendragon1

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Lmfao, you are actually saying you can fix things on your vehicles without dealer assistance, but argue the farmers can't do the same thing? Are you actually reading what you write or just trolling?
but but farm equipment is so big!! that argument makes no sense.
 

cyclone3d

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Rules for thee but not me. That explains everything you've said so far.
Nope,
If I was using massive farm equipment there are certain things I would want to be repaired / serviced by the mfg.

I've dealt with more than my fair share of crappy 3rd party parts for vehicles, etc. In the long run it just isn't worth it to use certain 3rd party parts.

Not only can they be poor quality, but they can also be outright dangerous.

As for certain codes, say on John Deere equipment, sure let them continue to run it.

But what if instead of the users actually fixing problems... Such as replacing oil filters, changing the oil, keeping the fluid levels where they are supposed to be some of these people just reset the codes or even modify the equipment to never have the codes come on?

You know there are people out there that would do this and then go after John Deere when something bad happens.

Kinda like how people sue fast food places for such things as spilling hot coffee on themselves.

Maybe there should be some sort of cellular connection available so that required fixes can be verified.

I just don't see how John Deere as a company is supposed to protect themselves legally if they were to completely open up repairs to end users for all their large equipment.

Maybe they could completely do away with any warranty whatsoever for starters. Let the farmers be completely on their own as far as repairs go.

Provide the repair manuals and sell OEM parts and that is all.

My bet is that is that were to happen, then there would end up being a massive number of cheaply made 3rd party parts and that would lead to very bad things and then the people that bought those parts and did the repairs with those parts would try to go after John Deere.

I bet there are also all kinds of government regulations that they have to follow such as emissions standards and probably a whole lot of other stuff since from what I understand a whole lot of the farming is government (tax payer) subsidized.
 

cyclone3d

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Big diesel may actually be easier to work on than cars. As for his turbo may leak oil crap...well, that goes for cars that have turbos too. That dude has like zero clue.
Turbo gasoline and turbo diesel are two completely different animals.

You leak oil into the intake on a gasoline engine and the engine just smokes and you fouls the plugs, CAT, etc.

You leak oil into the intake on a diesel engine and the engine uses it as fuel.

And since on diesels have no control on the air intake, you end up with a runaway situation.
 
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so have i, my gas cap doesnt seal 100% all the time, big whoop. if the car shut down and refused to start until subaru came and serviced it(tightened the cap and cleared the code), id be pissed.
It's actually kinda (ironically) funny because this kinda happened to my friends Audi. It threw a code for the power steering and went into some crazy limp mode. She had to have it towed to the Audi dealer so they could reset it. What happened to reverting to normal steering? Why intentionally cripple the car? I'm never buying a new car.
 

cyclone3d

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but but farm equipment is so big!! that argument makes no sense.
Yeah it does.. how much HP and torque does your standard automobile have compared to a big diesel engine like is in large farm equipment or big rigs?

How much more force do these larger pieces of equipment have to handle without breaking when compared to a normal vehicle?
 

cyclone3d

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It's actually kinda (ironically) funny because this kinda happened to my friends Audi. It threw a code for the power steering and went into some crazy limp mode. She had to have it towed to the Audi dealer so they could reset it. What happened to reverting to normal steering? Why intentionally cripple the car? I'm never buying a new car.

Oh, there are a ton of newer cars that go into a limp mode depending on what code is being thrown.

Pretty much it will generally still run/drive well enough to get it to a repair shop or home and that is it.
 

pendragon1

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Yeah it does.. how much HP and torque does your standard automobile have compared to a big diesel engine like is in large farm equipment or big rigs?

How much more force do these larger pieces of equipment have to handle without breaking when compared to a normal vehicle?
so we can work on our cars because we know what we are doing but farmers that know how to fix their equipment cant?! make no sense. your arguments about 3rd part parts voiding warranties is valid though. most manufacturers do that.
 
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Provide the repair manuals and sell OEM parts and that is all.

My bet is that is that were to happen, then there would end up being a massive number of cheaply made 3rd party parts and that would lead to very bad things and then the people that bought those parts and did the repairs with those parts would try to go after John Deere.
Like how things have been forever until JD was able to shove a microchip into everything to lock it down and keep farmers coming back for more until they decide to retire the model and stop providing parts/support thereby forcing farmers to park their otherwise perfectly fine equipment in a field because they can't replace a filter or something stupid? Like, I totally get where you're coming from, but the implications of not having a right to repair law goes far beyond fully stripping a tractor to it's frame and reassembling it wrong. Literally everything is tied into their ecosystem and once they don't want it to run anymore, it doesn't run anymore. I read one story a bit ago about a guy with a tractor that had a GPS thing on it, it wouldn't let him use it because the GPS antenna broke and he couldn't get a replacement. Why? Either they were afraid of him getting lost in his field, or they wanted to sell him a new tractor.

Oh, there are a ton of newer cars that go into a limp mode depending on what code is being thrown.

Pretty much it will generally still run/drive well enough to get it to a repair shop or home and that is it.
Nah, it straight up capped at 20 mph and then shut off after like 5 miles. Do that on the wrong road around here and if you don't have emergency supplies, you're in trouble. And they did it INTENTIONALLY. If it was a catastrophic failure like a fuel pump about to explode, I'd kinda understand, but a steering wheel position sensor or whatever it was? Gross. It's sick. Almost as bad as features on a Tesla being licensed and they have the ability to take away your cruise control. I'm sticking with my 90's imports.
 

Derangel

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Yeah it does.. how much HP and torque does your standard automobile have compared to a big diesel engine like is in large farm equipment or big rigs?

How much more force do these larger pieces of equipment have to handle without breaking when compared to a normal vehicle?

You do realize farmers have been repairing their own equipment for generations, right? Farmers with multi-generational homes literally grow up learning how to repair and maintain equipment because it's their livelyhood. How dense do you have to be to think they're suddenly unable to do this just because John fucking Deere said so?
 

wizzi01

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Turbo gasoline and turbo diesel are two completely different animals.

You leak oil into the intake on a gasoline engine and the engine just smokes and you fouls the plugs, CAT, etc.

You leak oil into the intake on a diesel engine and the engine uses it as fuel.

And since on diesels have no control on the air intake, you end up with a runaway situation.

Don't need a dealer to fix an oil leak either way. So, what's going to be your next excuse?
 

DukenukemX

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Turbo gasoline and turbo diesel are two completely different animals.

You leak oil into the intake on a gasoline engine and the engine just smokes and you fouls the plugs, CAT, etc.

You leak oil into the intake on a diesel engine and the engine uses it as fuel.

And since on diesels have no control on the air intake, you end up with a runaway situation.
Or worse case scenario you leak so much oil that it bends rods and the engine is trash, or at the very least it needs a rebuild. Or maybe you lose so much oil that the engine spins a bearing and to the trash it belongs. If the engine is leaking oil into the intake then you have a design flaw that shouldn't exist, in which case going back to the manufacturer is not going to change much. This mainly happens because the PCV system sucks ass for nearly 40 years and nobody found a way to keep it sucking oil into the intake system. Maybe they want this to happen as this is a form of planned obsolescence? There are a lot of questionable design choices that over time need attention or at least an upgrade. There's no reason not to use a stainless steel exhaust. In fact, there's no reason not to use stainless steel bolts to hold everything together. This isn't too different with computers as many times I find questionable design choices when cooling components.
 
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641
Nope,
If I was using massive farm equipment there are certain things I would want to be repaired / serviced by the mfg.

I've dealt with more than my fair share of crappy 3rd party parts for vehicles, etc. In the long run it just isn't worth it to use certain 3rd party parts.

Not only can they be poor quality, but they can also be outright dangerous.

As for certain codes, say on John Deere equipment, sure let them continue to run it.

But what if instead of the users actually fixing problems... Such as replacing oil filters, changing the oil, keeping the fluid levels where they are supposed to be some of these people just reset the codes or even modify the equipment to never have the codes come on?

You know there are people out there that would do this and then go after John Deere when something bad happens.

Kinda like how people sue fast food places for such things as spilling hot coffee on themselves.

Maybe there should be some sort of cellular connection available so that required fixes can be verified.

I just don't see how John Deere as a company is supposed to protect themselves legally if they were to completely open up repairs to end users for all their large equipment.

Maybe they could completely do away with any warranty whatsoever for starters. Let the farmers be completely on their own as far as repairs go.

Provide the repair manuals and sell OEM parts and that is all.

My bet is that is that were to happen, then there would end up being a massive number of cheaply made 3rd party parts and that would lead to very bad things and then the people that bought those parts and did the repairs with those parts would try to go after John Deere.

I bet there are also all kinds of government regulations that they have to follow such as emissions standards and probably a whole lot of other stuff since from what I understand a whole lot of the farming is government (tax payer) subsidized.
Can't companies figure out when people don't repair their own stuff properly? I can hear John Deere lawyers just saying that to shut everything down.
 

sunruh

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people...cyclone "claims" to be working on stuff since he was 12....yet doesnt show the technical know how to work on a lawn mower.

never mind the necessity of not merely needing, but requiring the use of the farm equipment in mind during a very short window of time to plant/harvest a crop.

i hope that the farmer that feeds him...cant harvest so he cant eat. ;)
 

wizzi01

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people...cyclone "claims" to be working on stuff since he was 12....yet doesnt show the technical know how to work on a lawn mower.

never mind the necessity of not merely needing, but requiring the use of the farm equipment in mind during a very short window of time to plant/harvest a crop.

i hope that the farmer that feeds him...cant harvest so he cant eat. ;)
Not to mention how working on big diesel equipment is so dangerous. Yet, he "repairs" and "fabricates" things for his lawnmower which can be exceedingly dangerous.
 

sphinx99

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I support legislation like this if it unshackles suppliers of replacement parts from restrictions on whom they can sell those replacement parts to. Of course, the challenge is in achieving that without losing the exclusivity that creates competition and competitive products. In other words, if Company A designs and subcontracts the manufacture of a camera module to Company B, Company B should be able to sell that module to repair shops, but not legally entitled to sell the same Company A-designed part to Company A's competitors. I'm not sure how practical this is.

I do not support "right to repair" driving product designs that incorporate repairability to some federal standard. The market should decide - if one company offers a smartphone that uses adhesives to maintain a slim form factor while another offers something bulkier with fasteners and clips, people should decide with their wallets which they prefer. The federal government should not mandate that the former make its battery or screen replaceable according to some arbitrary litmus test created by non-engineers.
 
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I support legislation like this if it unshackles suppliers of replacement parts from restrictions on whom they can sell those replacement parts to. Of course, the challenge is in achieving that without losing the exclusivity that creates competition and competitive products. In other words, if Company A designs and subcontracts the manufacture of a camera module to Company B, Company B should be able to sell that module to repair shops, but not legally entitled to sell the same Company A-designed part to Company A's competitors. I'm not sure how practical this is.

I do not support "right to repair" driving product designs that incorporate repairability to some federal standard. The market should decide - if one company offers a smartphone that uses adhesives to maintain a slim form factor while another offers something bulkier with fasteners and clips, people should decide with their wallets which they prefer. The federal government should not mandate that the former make its battery or screen replaceable according to some arbitrary litmus test created by non-engineers.
This isn't part of the discussion, at least for now. No one is telling manufacturers to stop soldering thier stuff together.

Letting the market decide is good in principle, but when companies use laws crafted in thier favor to hold back the consumer or competition, then, in my mind they already surrendered their rights to the benefits of a free market. Live by the sword, die by the sword, meaning when you use government to get around the free market, then you should take the negative government intrusiveness alongside the benefits.
 

westrock2000

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My Dad recently gave me a 12.9" iPad Pro with a cracked screen, said I could have it if I wanted to bother fixing it. Looked on eBay....just the screen assembly is $600. Apple charges $600 to do a full replacement.
 

1_rick

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In other words, if Company A designs and subcontracts the manufacture of a camera module to Company B, Company B should be able to sell that module to repair shops, but not legally entitled to sell the same Company A-designed part to Company A's competitors. I'm not sure how practical this is.
It's not practical at all. Consider the case where someone working for one of Company A's competitors hires a friend to buy the part from Company B.
 

1_rick

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My Dad recently gave me a 12.9" iPad Pro with a cracked screen, said I could have it if I wanted to bother fixing it. Looked on eBay....just the screen assembly is $600. Apple charges $600 to do a full replacement.
I have no idea how good it is, but searching for "12.9" ipad pro screen assembly" on Ali Express found a $200 piece. Sure, you have to wait a month to get it.

ETA: You can get screen/digitizer replacements for many common Android smartphones for like $30.
 
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I won't pretend I'm an expert, but doesn't this sort of decree need a decent amount of backing from US states to gain any real traction?
 

TordanGow

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Also other shops would replace batteries if they could. A lot of people would be perfectly fine using a 5 year old phone with a new battery.

I'd replace the battery in my 3.5 year old phone and keep using it but i can't. Verizon att and tmo are shuting down their 3g networks at the end of the year. My phone uses 3g for calling and 4g for data. It doesn't support volte so my only choice is to get a damn new phone or not have voice service at all. I'm totally happy with the phone and I'm being forced to change. Fkers.
 

noko

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Well got the Htr/AC blower resistor direct from Nissan, no one else had it in stock or anywhere in the US. The component sits behind the console under the dash above and to the right of the gas peddle. No way I would get my fat ass in that squeeze so taking out the seat (bucket) would be it. Spent more time trying to figure out the plugs going to the seat, two cables with different type plugs. Had notches on then pretending to be tabs, one plug had springs in it going to a latch not associated with the dummy side tabs. Anyways I figured that one out without breaking the plug, the next one also had some useless tabs and actually required a very small flat tip screwdriver to wedge to release it. In a nutshell, appears to be design to confuse, frustrate, cause pain due to breakage on removing the plugs. Seriously how many ways does a company have to make plugs for automotive functions? I had to go to Nissan to get the part and then plow through some convoluted design choices. Plug took 80% of the time, work needed and removal and reinstallation of seat 20%. Of course now I could do this whole thing in about 10min-15min just like a car dealer, I should have been able to do it in less than 30 min the first time and not the 1.5 hour time frame.

It is that frustration level that comes with designs making it hard to work on that drive many to drop off the vehicle for someone else to fix. When I was a kid, my dad would have me work with him on about everything on the car, it was fun, for the most part straight forward on what needed to be done once you understood the problem and the part needed. Times that by tens of thousands of parents to kids and you have a better educated population that can fix things. Today, iPhone does not work -> Kid, mom I threw away my iPhone since it broke, I need a new one. . .
 

MrCaffeineX

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Apple makes repair costs so high it's dumb not to just buy a new phone. They charge hundreds for things some place else would do for $20. Continuing to use existing phones instead of throwing them away would reduce a lot of waste

Also other shops would replace batteries if they could. A lot of people would be perfectly fine using a 5 year old phone with a new battery.
My 6 year old iPhone is now an iPod in my car. It is probably capable of doing more, but this seems appropriate. I have to keep it plugged in almost all of the time because the battery is shot, and while replacing it is not that expensive the last time I checked, it does what I need it to do the way it is.
 

Wat

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Can I overclock a John Deere tractor? I would at least like to get it to HDMI 2.2 or 3, for future proofing.
 

Viper16

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This is good news! Dealerships have gained a reputation as Stealerships due to corporate policies and marginal requirements on sales. They have become so bloated, just like any other large mfg in any industry, when it could be a simple fix, but to make their "numbers" they will sell you a complete replacement of components. How else can they keep increasing their numbers each year if they aren't pushing the numbers. The only good about the dealership is the responsibility of the repair if it were to fail, but even then those types of claims are getting harder and harder to negotiate as there is so much finger-pointing that could occur.
 

Sir Beregond

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It's actually kinda (ironically) funny because this kinda happened to my friends Audi. It threw a code for the power steering and went into some crazy limp mode. She had to have it towed to the Audi dealer so they could reset it. What happened to reverting to normal steering? Why intentionally cripple the car? I'm never buying a new car.
The second you said Audi, I knew where this one was going. I have a cousin who works for a tow company, and he tows newer cars like that Audi because of stuff like that all the time. Definitely avoid those cars.

As for the John Deere equipment, I'll freely admit I am pretty ignorant on that sort of equipment, but I'd like to think that if allowed, the market will work itself out so that you'll have quality 3rd party parts as well as the shitty ones and people will figure out what's what, just like you do with car parts.
 

Lakados

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To be fair, Apple does give a reasonable explanation from their perspective. Their primary issue is that there apparently is an epidemic of scammers who are ripping the components out of newer hardware, sticking old hardware on to replace, and then reselling it. This is particularly an issue with screens in the iPhone. The problem then comes back to Apple when people are aggrieved and then they have to pay for it in one way or another. It's certainly a more reasonable argument than "batteries will explode in people's faces" or something equally dumb as that. Louis Rossman talks more about that on his channel where he argues that this particular issue could be lessened if Apple would let the component suppliers sell directly to third-parties instead of holding it all back for themselves.
On the education side, I can't even guess how many times we get places trying to sell us "refurbished" Apple devices and probably 90% of those are scams. But they look as legit as any of the other sales emails I get from what seems to be every supplier under the sun. Easier to just deal with Apple direct there, then they also track and log the purchases and serial numbers which makes for easy import from our account into the MDM.
 

sunruh

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you guys are bashing on green a bit too much...red also deserves just as much. as do the other colors
it is easy to find a farming video of brand new $500,000+ equipment rendered unusable by software.
mike mitchell from sk,ca (non-usa) has several videos on how his green Fendt (agco) stops...how his red CaseIH stops doesnt run.
other guys with yellow catapillar same thing... yellow claas... yellow new holland... silver gleaner... on and on and on
MM says all of the colors have issues.
 

wizzi01

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you guys are bashing on green a bit too much...red also deserves just as much. as do the other colors
it is easy to find a farming video of brand new $500,000+ equipment rendered unusable by software.
mike mitchell from sk,ca (non-usa) has several videos on how his green Fendt (agco) stops...how his red CaseIH stops doesnt run.
other guys with yellow catapillar same thing... yellow claas... yellow new holland... silver gleaner... on and on and on
MM says all of the colors have issues.

It's just easier to focus on one company for the argument. You could replace the name with whoever you want and the argument is the same.
 
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