Riding on the Success of the M1, Apple Readies 32-core Chip for High-end Macs

[paradoxical]

It used to be that Apple prices weren't bad when compared to similar spec machines. That's now impossible to do since nobody else has access to Apple's hardware. That means we're free to compare to them with AMD and Nvidia hardware. In that case, they're over priced. There are plenty of AMD Ryzen laptops with RTX 2060's that cost $1k that will destroy the M1. Of course they can't compete in battery life.

I keep seeing this argument, but it's doesn't make sense to me. How can you judge price when no PC manufacturer even has any products that are comparable?

Let's try this:

Find me a comparable $800-1200 PC laptop that is the same size and weight as the Macbook Air, has as good of a screen and touchpad, and out-benchmarks the M1

Nothing? Ok, let's try another:

Find me a PC laptop at any price and any size with superior battery life to the Apple M1 Macbook Pro or Macbook Air

Damn, still nothing. Ok how about this:

Find me a 13 inch laptop at any price with 4 full bandwidth Thunderbolt 3 ports so we can compare.

Shit, still striking out?

Etc, etc, etc,

To me, Apple is not overpriced because no PC manufacturer offers a product that I can see as a viable alternative with all of the following: top-tier performance in the 13 inch formfactor, multiple TB3 ports, excellent screen that handles calibration well, top-flight SSD performance with 2-4TB options (3000+mbps read AND write), top-tier build quality, relatively thin and light, excellent first-party accidental damage support with stores in every major city around the world I can have my shit replaced immediately if I'm on a business trip, top-tier battery life, and an excellent track pad and keyboard.

I'm sorry, no PC manufacturer has the complete package.

People that hate on Apple tend to make the following argument: "My $4k desktop outbenches the entry level macbook air, Apple is trash!" Or the new version since the M! was announced: "You can buy a desktop replacement gaming laptop that crushes the Macbook Air, Apple is trash!"

But once you start comparing "Apples to Apples," you'll realize that Apple is not overpriced - because there are really no competitors for their mobile lineup. When comparing, people tend to just compare processor speed or memory size or whatever in isolation - but it's in delivering the whole package where Apple excels, and offers things that nobody else does. I think where it could be argued they are overpriced is exclusively in their desktop lineup - but even then, they offer things that other companies do not.

 

[idiomatic]

I keep seeing this argument, but it's hilarious. How can you judge price when no PC manufacturer even has any products close?

Let's try this:

Find me a comparable $800-1200 PC laptop that is the same size and weight as the Macbook Air, has as good of a screen and touchpad, and out-benchmarks the M1

Nothing? Ok, let's try another:

Find me a PC laptop at any price and any size with superior battery life to the Apple M1 Macbook Pro or Macbook Air

Damn, still nothing. Ok how about this:

Find me a 13 inch laptop at any price with 4 full bandwidth Thunderbolt 3 ports so we can compare.

Shit, still striking out?

Etc, etc, etc,

To me, Apple is not overpriced because no PC manufacturer offers a product that I can see as a viable alternative with all of the following: top-tier performance in the 13 inch formfactor, multiple TB3 ports, excellent screen that handles calibration well, top-flight SSD performance with 2-4TB options (3000+mbps read AND write), top-tier build quality, relatively thin and light, excellent first-party accidental damage support with stores in every major city around the world I can have my shit replaced immediately if I'm on a business trip, top-tier battery life, and an excellent track pad and keyboard.

I'm sorry, no PC manufacturer has the complete package.

People that hate on Apple tend to make the following argument: "My $4k desktop outbenches the entry level macbook air, Apple is trash!" Or the new version since the M! was announced: "You can buy a desktop replacement gaming laptop that crushes the Macbook Air, Apple is trash!"

But once you start comparing "Apples to Apples," you'll realize that Apple is not overpriced - because there are really no competitors for their mobile lineup. I think where it could be argued they are overpriced is exclusively in their desktop lineup - but even then, they offer things that other companies do not.

I have TB3 ports... but have never actually used one. I miss em as much as I miss firewire. They only exist because Apple decided no one really needed internal PCIe slots.

You know what really blows my GF's minds? When I use their laptop charger for their Air to charge my Phone. Absolutely Slack Jawed. Imagine being able to use one connector for everything?

 

[Aurelius]

Big decision looming for pro software vendors, give 30% of their revenue to Apple or move to Windows/Linux.

Or go the Black Magic route and give software away for free with hardware. Basically sell dongles again that look like cameras or control interfaces.

Apple hasn't signalled any intention of forcing Mac developers to sell through the App Store. What makes you think otherwise? That policy isn't dictated by the architecture under the hood — it's dictated by expectations for the platform.

 

[idiomatic]

Apple hasn't signalled any intention of forcing Mac developers to sell through the App Store. What makes you think otherwise? That policy isn't dictated by the architecture under the hood — it's dictated by expectations for the platform.

Oh wow.

 

[paradoxical]

I have TB3 ports... but have never actually used one. I miss em as much as I miss firewire. They only exist because Apple decided no one really needed internal PCIe slots.

You know what really blows my GF's minds? When I use their laptop charger for their Air to charge my Phone. Absolutely Slack Jawed. Imagine being able to use one connector for everything?

My entire workflow is based off of TB3. 10gbE, high speed external nvme storage, eGPU, etc. I already do use one connector for everything; I have an Android phone, Macbook Pro, and iPad pro - when I travel, I take ONE charger (MBP) and a couple Thunderbolt 3 cables. The Macbook Pro is capable of simultaneously high speed charging my phone and iPad from its Thunderbolt 3 ports when asleep, which is another thing most PC laptops can't do.

 

[GoodBoy]

Same screen size perhaps but I doubt that any HPE from 2015 in the $1100 range was offering anything close to the Apple retina display at that time, the colour accuracy, refresh rate, and pixel density was well above what they were offering in those price classes.

You are probably right, but Retina is more about marketing than anything. 4k in a 21" lcd? who cares? (overkill) Color accuracy? These would be valid arguments if the Apple was marketed to artists only, but this is the normal consumer stuff.

Great talking point for a "Genius" but little real value in that screen for 99% of consumers, likely for 99% of Apple's customers even.
***
No one else puts it in their laptops because it is a waste to do so.

Apple's laptops are their bright spot, but you get the closed ecosystem that comes with it. Again, as a consumer, it's just not enough added value to justify the price.

Clearly some of you love the laptops which is fine, no flaming because I disagree.

 

[Lakados]

Big decision looming for pro software vendors, give 30% of their revenue to Apple or move to Windows/Linux.

Or go the Black Magic route and give software away for free with hardware. Basically sell dongles again that look like cameras or control interfaces.

30% is no different from EA's, Steam, Google, even Epic for all they whine comes in at the 15-20% which is about the same as Microsofts. Everybody gets their cut, and developers know this which is why they are all trying to get their own stores going but then it's just Microsoft and Amazon who get a cut because they are the only ones really able to offer the cloud storage and hosting at this point in a reasonable manner.

 

[ChadD]

30% is no different from EA's, Steam, Google, even Epic for all they whine comes in at the 15-20% which is about the same as Microsofts. Everybody gets their cut, and developers know this which is why they are all trying to get their own stores going but then it's just Microsoft and Amazon who get a cut because they are the only ones really able to offer the cloud storage and hosting at this point in a reasonable manner.

Apple does try to lock things into their ecosystem more. For professional level software that isn't something they normally care about. You won't find professional level coulor grading software, or studio DAWs, serious 3D fx software in any of the stores. (not including Apples own software) Things like Houdini from SideFX.... where a one year license can run $7k. IF and I say IF Apple was stupid enough to try and force those types of companies to sell through the Apple store their answer will be see ya.

Found this the other day... not insane performance but it was running, on a 4 core M1. Apple might surprise a lot of people if they can get some of those big FX companies to compile Apple optimized builds.

 

[LukeTbk]

30% is no different from EA's, Steam, Google, even Epic for all they whine comes in at the 15-20% which is about the same as Microsofts. Everybody gets their cut, and developers know this which is why they are all trying to get their own stores going but then it's just Microsoft and Amazon who get a cut because they are the only ones really able to offer the cloud storage and hosting at this point in a reasonable manner.

Yas there ever a single expensive program on those store, that would be something completely different and new (I doubt it would happen anytime soon).

If a company pay 50K-500K or even just $5000 going direct to someone else that is ready to sell it for just $500 (or direct) is too attractive, it is nice to save worries and times because you do not mind on a very small under $100 affair (and when a saving your game on the cloud never loosing your serial key is worth not too far from that amount).

It would be completely different if it was a forced/really pushed affair like on a smartphone

 

[jeremyshaw]

Yas there ever a single expensive program on those store, that would be something completely different and new (I doubt it would happen anytime soon).

If a company pay 50K-500K or even just $5000 going direct to someone else that is ready to sell it for just $500 (or direct) is too attractive, it is nice to save worries and times because you do not mind on a very small under $100 affair (and when a saving your game on the cloud never loosing your serial key is worth not too far from that amount).

It would be completely different if it was a forced/really pushed affair like on a smartphone

Or consoles. Or any massive number of vendor locked workstations (where a lot of these programs reside). Though the latter is much rarer with SaaS taking over that model (IMO, that was largely accelerated by the death of almost all workstation/server uarchs not named x86). Yay dongles and floating license servers?

In the end, as internal emails by Apple show (and the timing of the Epic lawsuit lines up with the email disclosure, IMO), Apple can and will play favorites and give discounts.

 

[Lakados]

Apple does try to lock things into their ecosystem more. For professional level software that isn't something they normally care about. You won't find professional level coulor grading software, or studio DAWs, serious 3D fx software in any of the stores. (not including Apples own software) Things like Houdini from SideFX.... where a one year license can run $7k. IF and I say IF Apple was stupid enough to try and force those types of companies to sell through the Apple store their answer will be see ya.

Found this the other day... not insane performance but it was running, on a 4 core M1. Apple might surprise a lot of people if they can get some of those big FX companies to compile Apple optimized builds.

Takes a little bit of time to recompile those big things I would expect to see most of them native and ready to go come the end of July when most of the big procurement contracts come up.

 

[Lakados]

Or consoles. Or any massive number of vendor locked workstations (where a lot of these programs reside). Though the latter is much rarer with SaaS taking over that model (though that was largely accelerated by the death of almost all workstation/server uarchs not named x86). Yay dongles and floating license servers?

In the end, as internal emails by Apple show (and the timing of the Epic lawsuit lines up with the email disclosure, IMO), Apple can and will play favorites and give discounts.

Apple doesn’t hide this and they work out lots of pricing arrangements you just need to give them a reason too. Flipping them off and saying “FU that’s why” doesn’t cut it.

 

[jeremyshaw]

Apple doesn’t hide this and they work out lots of pricing arrangements you just need to give them a reason too. Flipping them off and saying “FU that’s why” doesn’t cut it.

Where? Before the Epic lawsuit and the legally required email disclosures (which revealed Apple gave Amazon a discount), where did Apple claim they would be willing to give discounts on their store's cut?

 

[Rockenrooster]

I keep seeing this argument, but it's doesn't make sense to me. How can you judge price when no PC manufacturer even has any products that are comparable?

Let's try this:

Find me a comparable $800-1200 PC laptop that is the same size and weight as the Macbook Air, has as good of a screen and touchpad, and out-benchmarks the M1

Nothing? Ok, let's try another:

Find me a PC laptop at any price and any size with superior battery life to the Apple M1 Macbook Pro or Macbook Air

Damn, still nothing. Ok how about this:

Find me a 13 inch laptop at any price with 4 full bandwidth Thunderbolt 3 ports so we can compare.

Shit, still striking out?

Etc, etc, etc,

To me, Apple is not overpriced because no PC manufacturer offers a product that I can see as a viable alternative with all of the following: top-tier performance in the 13 inch formfactor, multiple TB3 ports, excellent screen that handles calibration well, top-flight SSD performance with 2-4TB options (3000+mbps read AND write), top-tier build quality, relatively thin and light, excellent first-party accidental damage support with stores in every major city around the world I can have my shit replaced immediately if I'm on a business trip, top-tier battery life, and an excellent track pad and keyboard.

I'm sorry, no PC manufacturer has the complete package.

People that hate on Apple tend to make the following argument: "My $4k desktop outbenches the entry level macbook air, Apple is trash!" Or the new version since the M! was announced: "You can buy a desktop replacement gaming laptop that crushes the Macbook Air, Apple is trash!"

But once you start comparing "Apples to Apples," you'll realize that Apple is not overpriced - because there are really no competitors for their mobile lineup. When comparing, people tend to just compare processor speed or memory size or whatever in isolation - but it's in delivering the whole package where Apple excels, and offers things that nobody else does. I think where it could be argued they are overpriced is exclusively in their desktop lineup - but even then, they offer things that other companies do not.

Do the macbooks still only use integrated GPUs? If so, then I wouldn't say it has the "complete package". Also, why so many external nvmes, egpus? At that point it's not really an ultrabook anymore. Dongles everywhere!
My 17r2 from 2014 has 4 internal m.2 + 1 2.5" slot, gtx980m, and a haswell i7. Sure it doesn't have 10gbe, maybe the m.2 are just sata, and it's a 17 inch, but if I need anything more that's what desktops are for. Id rather lug around a 17inch workstation than what you are describing.
If I'm "working" 99% of the time it's somewhere with a chair, desk, and an outlet.

can you use an egpu on battery?

 

[Rockenrooster]

Also did anybody mention how horrible macbooks are with heat management and throttling? Hopefully using ARM CPUs they can finally get that under control.

 

[paradoxical]

Do the macbooks still only use integrated GPUs? If so, then I wouldn't say it has the "complete package". Also, why so many external nvmes, egpus? At that point it's not really an ultrabook anymore. Dongles everywhere!
My 17r2 from 2014 has 4 internal m.2 + 1 2.5" slot, gtx980m, and a haswell i7. Sure it doesn't have 10gbe, maybe the m.2 are just sata, and it's a 17 inch, but if I need anything more that's what desktops are for. Id rather lug around a 17inch workstation than what you are describing.
If I'm "working" 99% of the time it's somewhere with a chair, desk, and an outlet.

can you use an egpu on battery?

A 17in laptop with a GTX 980M can only realistically game at a desk. In which case my 13 inch Macbook Pro with eGPU absolutely stomps it performance wise (even works in bootcamp, so I can run windows too!).

I don't have any dongles - I use thunderbolt 3 for everything. Charging, NVME, eGPU, 10GBe dock, Android phone charging, etc. One cable life.

When I travel, I simply pick up my laptop and unplug the Thunderbolt cables, and I have a thin and light laptop that lasts hours and hours on battery (which your 17inch laptop can never do). When I do data collection for work on the go, I plug in NVME and scientific equipment with 40GBe to the thunderbolt 3 ports (which your laptop can never do). When I am at home, or at my desk, I get 10GBe and eGPU (which your laptop can never do).

Hell, when I travel I even use my ipad Pro as a second high-resolution monitor via sidecar to get a mobile retina dual monitor setup. My iPad plus Macbook pro combined weigh less than your 17in laptop.

Sounds like the complete package to me.

 

[DukenukemX]

Certainly not yet, but given the inroads, they are making into the other entertainment platforms I could see this as something they could grow into.

Unless Apple puts serious effort into gaming, I can't see them growing. They would need to allow people to customize their own gaming machines, and produce monster graphics, while still being affordable.

Find me a comparable $800-1200 PC laptop that is the same size and weight as the Macbook Air, has as good of a screen and touchpad, and out-benchmarks the M1.

Don't know about size and weight but plenty of faster laptops for $1k than the Macbook. This particular laptop has a bigger screen that's IPS 1080p. It has twice the storage of a $1.3k priced Macbook Pro 13". It also has a RTX 2060 with Ray-Tracing capabilities, unlike the M1. It only has 5 hours of battery life compared to the 16 hours on the Macbook M1. It's 5 pounds compared to the Macbook Pro's 3 pounds. But this is not up to date technology. Nvidia is now using Ampere not Turing, and AMD has Zen3 not Zen2. It's still a better deal.

https://www.amazon.com/ASUS-7-4800H...ds=RTX+2060+Laptop&qid=1607404929&sr=8-4&th=1

Find me a PC laptop at any price and any size with superior battery life to the Apple M1 Macbook Pro or Macbook Air

I already said the M1 has the best battery life.

Find me a 13 inch laptop at any price with 4 full bandwidth Thunderbolt 3 ports so we can compare.

Again, the 13 inch M1's do not have 4 Thunderbolt ports. It has 2 and they're tecnically USB 4

But once you start comparing "Apples to Apples," you'll realize that Apple is not overpriced - because there are really no competitors for their mobile lineup. When comparing, people tend to just compare processor speed or memory size or whatever in isolation - but it's in delivering the whole package where Apple excels, and offers things that nobody else does. I think where it could be argued they are overpriced is exclusively in their desktop lineup - but even then, they offer things that other companies do not.

If size and weight matters then sure the M1 is really good. But if that was all that mattered then other manufacturers would have tried to compete, and as far as I can tell only Microsoft has made any really good attempts at this. Battery life does matter a lot but to an extent. It does help that half your laptop is packed with batteries. That does give amazing battery life, but at a cost. You can't upgrade the SSD and you can't upgrade the ram. Especially the SSD because good luck removing the drive and retrieving the data if something bad happens to it. What good is a light, thin, and power efficient laptop when you have to carry around an external SSD drive to reliably store your data in the event if something goes wrong?

Macbook M1 battery
https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/22055174/macbook_pro_1_ifixit.jpg
Asus TUF battery
https://i0.wp.com/laptopmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/internals-8.jpg?ssl=1

Apple hasn't signalled any intention of forcing Mac developers to sell through the App Store. What makes you think otherwise? That policy isn't dictated by the architecture under the hood — it's dictated by expectations for the platform.

Have you looked at iOS? Since the M1 Macs can run iOS apps, it won't take long before Apple realizes they made a big mistake and will lock down devices to App Store only. I can't imagine Steam sticking around much longer, which is competing against the Apple App Store.

when I travel, I take ONE charger (MBP) and a couple Thunderbolt 3 cables. The Macbook Pro is capable of simultaneously high speed charging my phone and iPad from its Thunderbolt 3 ports when asleep, which is another thing most PC laptops can't do.

That's the issue with Apple products, in that they look good alone but when you do serious work they begin to look like Voltron with all the dongles and attachments that go with it. There's a reason why other laptops don't have much emphasis on Thunderbolt ports when everything you need is usually in the laptop. Things like 10gbE, high speed external nvme storage, and a good GPU are usually built into most other laptops. With the nvme storage usually up gradable.

If you're carrying all that crap with you and claiming thin, light, and power efficiency then you haven't been looking at you situation very carefully. To me it's usually easier to carry A laptop with no dongles and attachments in a separate bag. I can't imagine all that crap working without an external power source, or at the least draining the power fast on the Macbook.

 

[painintheworld]

A 17in laptop with a GTX 980M can only realistically game at a desk. In which case my 13 inch Macbook Pro with eGPU absolutely stomps it performance wise (even works in bootcamp, so I can run windows too!).

I don't have any dongles - I use thunderbolt 3 for everything. Charging, NVME, eGPU, 10GBe dock, Android phone charging, etc. One cable life.

When I travel, I simply pick up my laptop and unplug the Thunderbolt cables, and I have a thin and light laptop that lasts hours and hours on battery (which your 17inch laptop can never do). When I do data collection for work on the go, I plug in NVME and scientific equipment with 40GBe to the thunderbolt 3 ports (which your laptop can never do). When I am at home, or at my desk, I get 10GBe and eGPU (which your laptop can never do).

Hell, when I travel I even use my ipad Pro as a second high-resolution monitor via sidecar to get a mobile retina dual monitor setup. My iPad plus Macbook pro combined weigh less than your 17in laptop.

Sounds like the complete package to me.

Sounds like an epeen contest entry.

 

[Lakados]

Unless Apple puts serious effort into gaming, I can't see them growing. They would need to allow people to customize their own gaming machines, and produce monster graphics, while still being affordable.

Consoles don’t let you do that, phones & tablets don’t let you do that. Their cheapest devices are all currently more powerful than a switch, Apple Arcade is growing and Apple keeps claiming that more titles and developers are coming. Now that iOS and the OSX desktops are becoming more like Android is to ChromeOS I very well could see Apple funding a title or two. Nothing huge at first say something along the lines of Sea of Thieves, some JRPG style games see where that takes them.

 

[TeeJayHoward]

RE: Professional software

Maybe it's just me coming at it from a SysAdmin perspective, but I'd LOVE it if my engineers could hop on the Apple Store and download/install their own software. Licensing servers are a pain, and something I'd love to dump in Apple's lap.

 

[Mazzspeed]

Compared to 20% from samsung (2019), they are doing pretty well, imo. https://marketrealist.com/2020/02/samsungs-earnings-s
Mornington 3931

martphone-market-share-galaxy-fold/

Globally 'Android' smashes iOS. Lets not limit ourselves to just one manufacturer here when Android runs across a number of makes/models.

 

[Rockenrooster]

A 17in laptop with a GTX 980M can only realistically game at a desk. In which case my 13 inch Macbook Pro with eGPU absolutely stomps it performance wise (even works in bootcamp, so I can run windows too!).

I don't have any dongles - I use thunderbolt 3 for everything. Charging, NVME, eGPU, 10GBe dock, Android phone charging, etc. One cable life.

When I travel, I simply pick up my laptop and unplug the Thunderbolt cables, and I have a thin and light laptop that lasts hours and hours on battery (which your 17inch laptop can never do). When I do data collection for work on the go, I plug in NVME and scientific equipment with 40GBe to the thunderbolt 3 ports (which your laptop can never do). When I am at home, or at my desk, I get 10GBe and eGPU (which your laptop can never do).

Hell, when I travel I even use my ipad Pro as a second high-resolution monitor via sidecar to get a mobile retina dual monitor setup. My iPad plus Macbook pro combined weigh less than your 17in laptop.

Sounds like the complete package to me.

To me it just sounds like a high end laptop with extra steps.... But I guess that's just me.
Id rather work/game on a 17 inch than a 13inch, even if the 13 inch has higher perf.
Also for my laptop being 6 years old, i'd say i'm getting pretty good use out of it. Just replaced the battery this year myself for $80, I can easily last 3-4 hours if I turn off turbo boost.
Also, one thing your laptop can never do is actually stay at a reasonable temps for extended periods of time without throttling under heavy loads... If I wanted a thin and light laptop i'd just get a tablet, which will wreck any laptop in battery life.

That's the issue with Apple products, in that they look good alone but when you do serious work they begin to look like Voltron with all the dongles and attachments that go with it. There's a reason why other laptops don't have much emphasis on Thunderbolt ports when everything you need is usually in the laptop. Things like 10gbE, high speed external nvme storage, and a good GPU are usually built into most other laptops. With the nvme storage usually up gradable.

If you're carry all that crap with you and claiming thin, light, and power efficiency then you haven't been looking at you situation very carefully. To me it's usually easier to carry A laptop with no dongles and attachments in a separate bag. I can't imagine all that crap working without an external power source, or at the least draining the power fast on the Macbook.

Literally what he said ^^^.
You keep saying that it has the "complete package" and then you go on about adding all this stuff to it, that's not a "complete package". For what you paid for all that stuff i'm sure you could find something comparable, except for maybe internal 40GbE, that would still be a thunderbolt dongle. that and battery, but at this point, battery isn't important. My 17R2 has a eGPU port but I've never used it. If my laptop has 4 m.2 slots than I'm sure that current high end laptops do too, no need for external NVME, unless you need more than 4 of them.

Also note with all that bandwidth you're running on those Thunderbolt ports I would think its impossible to get full (real-world) speed from all of them (eGPU + 10/40GBe + external NVME) because of lack of PCIe lanes, unless Thunderbolt can somehow dynamically allocate lanes in real-time to get max bandwidth from one item at a time...
do they all run 16x? 4x? or 1x?
What GPU are you running in the eGPU box?

You have fun with your "complete package".
My hypothetical "complete package" would be a Dell Precision 7750 or similar from Alienware or MSI, etc, and then a nice tablet. And all that can fit in one reasonably sized backpack...

 

[Aurelius]

Have you looked at iOS? Since the M1 Macs can run iOS apps, it won't take long before Apple realizes they made a big mistake and will lock down devices to App Store only. I can't imagine Steam sticking around much longer, which is competing against the Apple App Store.

Yes, I have. And I'm sorry, but speculation doesn't count as evidence. The Mac App Store has been around for just about a decade, and Apple already has a system for allowing apps beyond that store for users who are worried about security (you can use a Developer ID that effectively notarizes your apps). If Apple wanted to clamp down, it would have done so a long time ago.

 

[DukenukemX]

Consoles don’t let you do that, phones & tablets don’t let you do that.

And? Between PC and consoles, the console market is currently at 60%. If you include mobile then they account for 45% of the gaming market. But mobile games are at best looking like PS3/360 level of graphics. As impressive as the specs are on the iPhone 12 you wouldn't be able to install Call of Duty Black Ops Cold War. Even the cheapest Macbook Pro with 256GB of un-upgradable storage wouldn't be able to install more than 1 copy of the new Call of Duty game, assuming it can run it.

If Apple wants to take gaming serious then it needs to allow other non Apple machines to run Mac OSX. It needs expandable storage on the iPhone, like this ancient technology we in Android land call "SD Card Slot". It needs to freakin support Vulkan instead of their stupid Metal API, because developers don't want to learn how to use an Apple specific API that's specific to one hardware manufacturer. Turns out there's a world outside of Apple, who knew?

Their cheapest devices are all currently more powerful than a switch,

Their cheapest devices are also not as cheap as a Switch. They don't have built in buttons like a Switch. The Switch is also 3 years old.

Apple Arcade is growing and Apple keeps claiming that more titles and developers are coming.

How's Fortnite?

 

[DukenukemX]

Yes, I have. And I'm sorry, but speculation doesn't count as evidence. The Mac App Store has been around for just about a decade, and Apple already has a system for allowing apps beyond that store for users who are worried about security (you can use a Developer ID that effectively notarizes your apps). If Apple wanted to clamp down, it would have done so a long time ago.

Apple couldn't clamp down because MacOSX has a lot of legacy behind it. It still does, which is why Rosetta2 exists. You cant just go and tell people that they can't install software outside the App Store. Microsoft tried this with Windows RT for ARM and that failed horribly. Now with the Surface Pro X you can but x64 apps will almost certainly not work on their ARM based device. The Surface devices are a good example on how not to transition to ARM.

I do believe that at some point Apple will prevent M1 and future successor to M1 machines to only get apps from their App Store. They'll claim ultimate security and Apple users will eat that shit up because you always do. They're going to do it. It's not a matter of if but when.

 

[Nobu]

Globally 'Android' smashes iOS. Lets not limit ourselves to just one manufacturer here when Android runs across a number of makes/models.

Even then, they still have over a quarter of the market. Almost a third. I'm not fooling myself, they aren't dominating, but they aren't small potatoes either.

 

[Aurelius]

Apple couldn't clamp down because MacOSX has a lot of legacy behind it. It still does, which is why Rosetta2 exists. You cant just go and tell people that they can't install software outside the App Store. Microsoft tried this with Windows RT for ARM and that failed horribly. Now with the Surface Pro X you can but x64 apps will almost certainly not work on their ARM based device. The Surface devices are a good example on how not to transition to ARM.

I do believe that at some point Apple will prevent M1 and future successor to M1 machines to only get apps from their App Store. They'll claim ultimate security and Apple users will eat that shit up because you always do. They're going to do it. It's not a matter of if but when.

Like I said, speculation isn't evidence. Really, strongly believing something (as you do) doesn't make it any more likely to happen.

In fact, you undermined your own argument by pointing out Microsoft's follies. Apple saw how a locked-down computer experience flopped with Windows on ARM and Windows 10 S... why would it want to follow Microsoft down that hole?

I'm sure Apple has moments when it wishes it could travel back in time and see what happened if it did limit Mac users to the App Store, but I think it realizes that it's too late and that multiple camps (mainly pro users, developers like Adobe, and enthusiasts) would balk. I'm not expecting Apple to change that any time soon.

 

[Lakados]

Like I said, speculation isn't evidence. Really, strongly believing something (as you do) doesn't make it any more likely to happen.

In fact, you undermined your own argument by pointing out Microsoft's follies. Apple saw how a locked-down computer experience flopped with Windows on ARM and Windows 10 S... why would it want to follow Microsoft down that hole?

I'm sure Apple has moments when it wishes it could travel back in time and see what happened if it did limit Mac users to the App Store, but I think it realizes that it's too late and that multiple camps (mainly pro users, developers like Adobe, and enthusiasts) would balk. I'm not expecting Apple to change that any time soon.

Apple doesn’t need to lock it down to the extent people keep thinking they will. They still require all developers to register, pay annual fees, and work solely out of their XCode development libraries. So even the 3rd party vendors are still reined in to a degree.

 

[DukenukemX]

why would it want to follow Microsoft down that hole?

Money usually. Sometimes lots of money. They're learning from Microsoft's mistakes and taking their time to transition to an "App Store" only future.

I'm sure Apple has moments when it wishes it could travel back in time and see what happened if it did limit Mac users to the App Store, but I think it realizes that it's too late and that multiple camps (mainly pro users, developers like Adobe, and enthusiasts) would balk. I'm not expecting Apple to change that any time soon.

I'm not saying it'll happen next week, but it could take years. They could start doing it by labeling software secure from the App Store. Then they could limit features unless it's from the App Store. Once majority of apps are on the App Store, then Apple can pull the plug and force everyone onto the App Store, which majority would be using already and not complain because they're conditioned. Basically future Apple Laptops are just going to be tablets with built in keyboards.

 

[LukeTbk]

RE: Professional software

Maybe it's just me coming at it from a SysAdmin perspective, but I'd LOVE it if my engineers could hop on the Apple Store and download/install their own software. Licensing servers are a pain, and something I'd love to dump in Apple's lap.

Has someone on the other side of the equation (that make the expensive software that use the painful licensing servers) it would be nice (specially if it offer seat type of floating license, update rights and all that jazz), certainly not if they charge us many thousand of dollar of commission on every single sales.

It could have giant values, but I would imagine the % they charge should be able to go down for every $1,000 of dollar the software cost up front and on the annual licensing fee.

 

[Silentbob343]

Unless Apple puts serious effort into gaming, I can't see them growing. They would need to allow people to customize their own gaming machines, and produce monster graphics, while still being affordable.

We aren't the majority of "gamers". There are plenty of people gaming on non-upgradable hardware. Does Apple have a long road ahead to appeal to gamers? Yes, but I don't see it as insurmountable with some smart partnerships. Now, is that a segment they care to go after is another matter.

Consoles don’t let you do that, phones & tablets don’t let you do that. Their cheapest devices are all currently more powerful than a switch, Apple Arcade is growing and Apple keeps claiming that more titles and developers are coming. Now that iOS and the OSX desktops are becoming more like Android is to ChromeOS I very well could see Apple funding a title or two. Nothing huge at first say something along the lines of Sea of Thieves, some JRPG style games see where that takes them.

 

[DukenukemX]

We aren't the majority of "gamers". There are plenty of people gaming on non-upgradable hardware.

Console gamers. Right now a PS5 and Xbox Series X are far more powerful than anything Apple has when it comes to gaming, and $500. For everything else you have PC which makes up a sizable portion of the market.

Does Apple have a long road ahead to appeal to gamers?

Apple has no road as far as I'm concerned. Apple makes their own GPU's and it's pretty clear that's the direction they'll be going from now on. Their GPU technology is more or less taken from Imaginations PowerVR, so it's not like Apple has the expertise to make a competitive gaming GPU. The M1 is pretty good for a mobile GPU, but it ain't got nothing on Nvidia and AMD. How long will it take for Apple to incorporate Ray-Tracing? Since Apple is determined to push their Metal API, a lot of developers will be deterred from porting their games onto it.

Now, is that a segment they care to go after is another matter.

Probably not, seeing as iOS devices are popular enough when it comes to gaming for young people. Unless Apple opens up MacOSX, incorporates Vulkan, and allows for upgradable hardware then Apple has no chance. Be afraid of Nvidia for they're the ones who could topple Apple. Nvidia is the sole reason why console gaming didn't dominate the gaming market, and now they own ARM. I expect Nvidia to bring ARM to the PC market.

 

[serpretetsky]

Console gamers. Right now a PS5 and Xbox Series X are far more powerful than anything Apple has when it comes to gaming, and $500. For everything else you have PC which makes up a sizable portion of the market.

Don't forget gaming on laptops. A lot of people on laptops do not upgrade the hardware (a lot of times its not easily upgradeable anyways, except the RAM and storage which depending on the system may not have much effect on gaming performance anyways).

 

[Aurelius]

Money usually. Sometimes lots of money. They're learning from Microsoft's mistakes and taking their time to transition to an "App Store" only future.

I'm not saying it'll happen next week, but it could take years. They could start doing it by labeling software secure from the App Store. Then they could limit features unless it's from the App Store. Once majority of apps are on the App Store, then Apple can pull the plug and force everyone onto the App Store, which majority would be using already and not complain because they're conditioned. Basically future Apple Laptops are just going to be tablets with built in keyboards.

I wouldn't count on it happening at all. The transition to majority apps on the store is a big "if" — unless Apple makes it extremely unpalatable to publish anywhere else, very quickly, I can't see developers flocking toward the App Store en masse. And there's already a security system in place with both App Store reviews and notarization for non-App Store titles.

There's also a certain irony to claiming Apple would turn Macs into tablets with keyboards when the company has been resolutely opposed to adding touchscreens to Macs.

Again, I can't completely rule things out. But I've been following Apple's Mac app saga for a long time, including as a Mac user (which it's safe to say you haven't been for a while, if ever). If Apple had wanted to do it, it could easily have done so years ago. iPhone apps on the Mac don't change that.

 

[Rockenrooster]

Don't forget gaming on laptops. A lot of people on laptops do not upgrade the hardware (a lot of times its not easily upgradeable anyways, except the RAM and storage which depending on the system may not have much effect on gaming performance anyways).

But it does affect how many games you can have installed. These days, games are pushing 100+GB

 

[Lakados]

But it does affect how many games you can have installed. These days, games are pushing 100+GB

On something where they need textures and audio for 4k in 50 languages. But really if they were to scale things accordingly and only install the audio for the device's preset language it would change significantly. I really don't see an M1 or M1X doing anything running 4K native at an acceptable rate.

 

[serpretetsky]

But it does affect how many games you can have installed. These days, games are pushing 100+GB

Yeah thats true. I kind of wish games would give you download options in case you don't want high def textures or something like that.

Example: I downloaded Command and Conquer remastered on steam (you know... that game that was made in like the mid 1990s...). 20 GB!!! WTF! I looked through the steam folders. 15GB of that 20GB is not even the game, it's all of the inbetween cutscenes remastered in high definition. Deleting the videos and the game still works fine, except no cutscenes. I would have rather downloaded the original videos!

 

[idiomatic]

Yeah thats true. I kind of wish games would give you download options in case you don't want high def textures or something like that.

Example: I downloaded Command and Conquer remastered on steam (you know... that game that was made in like the mid 1990s...). 20 GB!!! WTF! I looked through the steam folders. 15GB of that 20GB is not even the game, it's all of the inbetween cutscenes remastered in high definition. Deleting the videos and the game still works fine, except no cutscenes. I would have rather downloaded the original videos!

Ah, for the days when a developers biggest problems was coming up with imaginative ways to fill a 600MB disc

 

[DukenukemX]

Don't forget gaming on laptops. A lot of people on laptops do not upgrade the hardware (a lot of times its not easily upgradeable anyways, except the RAM and storage which depending on the system may not have much effect on gaming performance anyways).

You can't upgrade a laptop but you can upgrade a laptop. Depends on the laptop. Since CPU's today are BGA crap, you have to replace the entire motherboard. I've actually done this a number of times but not something I'd expect JoeSixPack to do. Upgrading memory and storage is a big deal for a number of reasons but ram and storage is cheap. If anything goes wrong at least you can salvage your data, because it can be removed. In a modern Apple product you need to replace the motherboard to upgrade either one. Good luck getting your hands on Apple parts, let alone getting them for cheap.

 

[Lakados]

Yeah thats true. I kind of wish games would give you download options in case you don't want high def textures or something like that.

Example: I downloaded Command and Conquer remastered on steam (you know... that game that was made in like the mid 1990s...). 20 GB!!! WTF! I looked through the steam folders. 15GB of that 20GB is not even the game, it's all of the inbetween cutscenes remastered in high definition. Deleting the videos and the game still works fine, except no cutscenes. I would have rather downloaded the original videos!

Microsoft and Apple already do to some extent, an Xbox will only download the language files for your main language chosen in the system, and it will change the textures it downloads based on which console version you are using. Apple has a similar ability by breaking out iPhones from iPads so the developer if they choose can have separate resources depending on what platform the user is installing from.