Recommendations needed: 2016 Cheap entry into surround sound?

Zarathustra[H] said:
Yeah, I got the flash thing earlier too, but it still doesn't load all the way. I don't get the sub until Thursday, so no rush, but I AM curious.

Edit:

And it is up! They didn't have the Primus 360's in their database, but I understand the Primus P363 are mostly the same, and for those they recommend a crossover at 60hz, with a Low Pass Filter Slope (dB/octave) of 12.

I'm not quite sure what that last one is. I thought the crossover was more or less a low pass filter. What's this slope?
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Put the crossover at 80hz, highly recommended from a huge majority of AVS Forum people regardless of large towers.
 
The slope is how fast it makes it roll off at a certain frequency. At 12 db, and at 80hz it will drop 12db per octave, so at 40hz it will drop another 12db. 12 db slopes are average.

DSP is processing capabilities that allow you to fine tune your frequency output. It also contains a cross over. A crossover is what contains the hiphpass and lowpass filter.

Your receiver is a big fancy DSP, it can set frequency cut offs and protect your speakers. Where have you had subs at before? Movie bass is a bit different than music bass, not to mention it's beneficial to get a sub that can dig into the teens for movie playback. Not required but there is a noticeable amount content in action movies down there.

Also I'd mess around with your cut off, I'm going to say 80hz too but the more bass that's handled by your sub the less you are stressing your towers. I'd never go above 160 on a cross over.
 
Well, there goes my Ryzen budget...

I just ordered two sets of Micca MB42x bookshelf speakers, a set of Videosecu stands for the surrounds, a Dayton Sub-800, a Dayton DTA-120 amp and a remote audio transmitter kit for the zone2 in my kitchen, so I don't have to run any more wires. (I have wire running fatigue, done way too much of it lately)

Final specs:

Living room (5.1 Setup)
  • Receiver: Denon AVR-x1300W
  • Front L/R: Infinity Primus 360
  • Center: Infinity Beta C250
  • Surrounds: Micca MB42x

Kitchen (Zone2)
  • Wireless transmitter/receiver off of Zone2 Pre-amp outs
  • Dayton DTA-120 60wpc RMS T amp.
  • Micca MB42x bookshelf speakers.
  • Dayton Sub-800 Subwoofer.

Now I certainly hope I am done for a while. This got way more pricy than I wanted in a hurry :p

I think I wound up with a pretty damned decent setup in the end though. Can't wait for all the parts to get here.
 
Still waiting for the Sub, the surrounds, and the receiver, but I did get the little Lepai 2020A+ amp I ordered to test used speakers at sellers locations and second hand stores today (a little late, lol, I'm done shopping)

It's quite the little amp though, for the price.

To test it I hooked it up to the speakers that came with my Fiance's crappy little all-in-one Sony stereo we use for news radio in the kitchen, and damn, it actually made them sound much better!

After this, I decided to hook it up to the KLH 980 surrounds I decided against using, and boy am I glad I decided to get something else. Those KLH speakers sound like ass. Don't get me wrong, the tweeters are decent and clear, but I don't even know what the little woofers are doing. I get all treble unless I use the tone control to turn up the bass a little, and then it quickly distorts. Not a fan. So glad I decided to get something else instead.

Then for shits and giggles I hooked it up to my left and right mains, the Primus 360's, and it sounded pretty damned good. I'm impressed this little amp labeled 2x20W RMS (but actually outputting no more than 2x15, I think) was able to drive them. You guys were right. I have no reason at all to worry about the 80W receiver.

Can't wait for the rest of the stuff to get here.
 
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Yea, unless you are trying to get some great low end bass, you don't need much power to get loud.
 
So,

I set everything up last night. Went through way more speaker wire than I thought I would, to the point where I didn't have enough for my Zone2. (will have to get more today).

I have a few configuration questions, if you guys don't mind:

1.) How sensitive are these things to being bumped/moved after you run Audyssey? People can't seem to avoid bumping into the speakers, slightly changing their positions/angles. Do I need to be worried that this significantly messes up the sound? Should I re-run Audyssey every time I notice something, or is it pretty much OK, to just manually turn them back and push them into roughly the same position they were before?

2.) The Large Speaker / Small Speaker question.

01-speaker-config.jpg


I know conventional wisdom is to set all of your speakers to "small" and let the bass handle everything, but my Audyssey detected my LCR's as "LARGE", and I'm thinking, if they can produce some bass, why not let them? It should help spread the bass evenly throughout the room, right?

02-crossovers.jpg


I also discovered that my receiver allows me to set crossovers independently per speaker pair, so rather than trusting Audyssey, I pulled the recommended crossover frequencies for Home Theater Receiver use for each of my speakers from SVS's Merlin tool, and populated those:


03-bass.jpg


I also discovered that the Bass menu had an option for LFE+Main, to allow the main speakers to produce whatever bass they can. I figured this would be a good combination with the Large speaker setting so I tried that.


I THINK this resulted in something that sounds pretty good, but honestly, I don't know what I'm listening for. I'd appreciate your input!
 
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Set the speakers to "Small". I have your bigger brother speakers, infinity beta 50's, same drivers, bigger 8" drivers, and they are too set to small. Try both if you want and compare yourself, but convention is set to small when using a subwoofer. LFE + Main means it plays subwoofer channel plus anything below the set crossover (80hz), additionally the mains will overlap some of the frequencies with the sub in this mode.

I personally tested a bit and prefered, all small, 80hz crossover, LFE only. I have this beast of a sub though, so test and decide based on what you like.
 
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1) Very sensitive, keep them toed into your preferred listening spot and you should be fine.

2) Leave them large, even with a sub you will probably like their output better even if you are using a 80 or 120hz crossover.

Don't worry on "what to listen for" just worry if it sounds good to you. If you feel it's too harsh then re run audyssey or play with the cross over at different cut offs. I set mine to 80 mainly because my sub isn't too strong past 80hz and my towers are great at it.
 
96redformula said:
Set the speakers to "Small". I have your bigger brother speakers, infinity beta 50's, same drivers, bigger 8" drivers, and they are too set to small. Try both if you want and compare yourself, but convention is set to small when using a subwoofer. LFE + Main means it plays subwoofer channel plus anything below the set crossover (80hz), additionally the mains will overlap some of the frequencies with the sub in this mode.

I personally tested a bit and prefered, all small, 80hz crossover, LFE only. I have this beast of a sub though, so test and decide based on what you like.
Click to expand...

Trimlock said:
1) Very sensitive, keep them toed into your preferred listening spot and you should be fine.

2) Leave them large, even with a sub you will probably like their output better even if you are using a 80 or 120hz crossover.

Don't worry on "what to listen for" just worry if it sounds good to you. If you feel it's too harsh then re run audyssey or play with the cross over at different cut offs. I set mine to 80 mainly because my sub isn't too strong past 80hz and my towers are great at it.
Click to expand...


Thanks for your suggestions.


Honestly, I can't tell much - if any - difference between the LCR's set as large vs small, or the bass set to LFE or LFE+Main. I have only listened casually to either setting though. My stepson was with us this weekend and my mother in-law is visiting, so it's daytime TV all day and need to be quiet at night, so I havent had much testing time.

I will try some critical listening for both settings in the near future. I have noticed the following though:

1.) Movies/TV:


  • Some titles sound bloody amazing. Notably the DTS HD Master track on Star Wars: The Force Awakens is pure surround audio bliss.
  • Some titles don't sound that great. The traditional DTS track (Identified by the receiver as DTS + Neural:X) on Space Jam (1996) was awfully boomy and quite annoying, and the dialogue seemed kind of muted, forcing me to turn up the center channel. (Then when switching back to Star Wars the center channel seemed too loud)
  • Various Dolby surround content on TV sounds pretty damned good, but the bass seems maybe a bit anemic, at least on the shows I have been watching lately, like SyFy's "Incorporated".

Is it normal to have this kind of title-to-title variation, and constantly having to tweak it, or am I doing something wrong?


2.) Music:

Music sounds good, but maybe a bit V-Shaped. Lots of brilliant treble, lots of bass, but the midrange seems pretty weak. I did the tap-check again on the tower speakers, and none of the woofer elements appear loose or poorly sealed, so I don't think that is it. Maybe it's just how these Primus speakers are designed?

Or maybe I am just spoiled by the excellent midrange on my Sennheiser HD650's on my Schiit Jotunheim amp?

Is there a way in Denons amps to EQ the music that I haven't found yet?


3.) Other:

The Denon smartphone app for 2016 models (apparently pre-2016 models use a different app, and that app is not compatible with newer models) is absolute garbage. Not only does it feature a counter-intuitive user interface, but it also has more bugs than any other software I have ever used. This is frustrating, because more often than not, I have to walk into the livingroom and use the Denon remote to change sound inputs and tune the music in the Kitchen/Zone2.


I'd appreciate any thoughts you or anyone else might have on these subjects. (at least the first two)
 
1) Star Wars remains to be the go-to for movie audio.

Sadly with better speakers your stuff with a crappy audio source is going to sound really crappy. Cheap audio has the ability to mask crappy audio. As for bass most TV (shows) stuff doesn't act as a good bass source, sadly the commercials have better bass.

2) those mid range issues are definitely your speakers. For EQing them you can use your receiver but if you are playing from a computer then EQ through the OS first. The HD650 comparison isn't really fair considering those were 5x has expensive as your towers lol!

Other) not sure, my Denon app works great but I'm not using zone 2 either.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
  • Some titles sound bloody amazing. Notably the DTS HD Master track on Star Wars: The Force Awakens is pure surround audio bliss.
  • Some titles don't sound that great. The traditional DTS track (Identified by the receiver as DTS + Neural:X) on Space Jam (1996) was awfully boomy and quite annoying, and the dialogue seemed kind of muted, forcing me to turn up the center channel. (Then when switching back to Star Wars the center channel seemed too loud)
  • Various Dolby surround content on TV sounds pretty damned good, but the bass seems maybe a bit anemic, at least on the shows I have been watching lately, like SyFy's "Incorporated".
Is it normal to have this kind of title-to-title variation, and constantly having to tweak it, or am I doing something wrong?
Click to expand...

Surround mixes really do vary from movie to movie and tv show to tv show. Movies have to be remixed for consumer format (DVD/BluRay/Digital), so you're not getting the same mix that you heard in the movie theaters. How much love they devote to a consumer mix really boils down to money.

As for TV, big budget shows can get some really stunning surround mixes (HBO's Westworld, GoT, The Pacific, etc) but most shows don't. Strangely, 5.1 support in Sports broadcasts is a big thing. Daytona 500's next month- you should give that a listen.

Trimlock said:
1) Star Wars remains to be the go-to for movie audio.
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Star Wars has changed their audio mix a jazillion times since 1977.(I really think they change with every new consumer format)
 
+1000 to the Daytona 500 in surround!! It'll give your new SVS sub a nice workout.
 
Trimlock said:
2) those mid range issues are definitely your speakers. For EQing them you can use your receiver but if you are playing from a computer then EQ through the OS first. The HD650 comparison isn't really fair considering those were 5x has expensive as your towers lol!
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Well, to be fair, I got the towers for $80, but they originally cost significantly more, and the headphones I got on Massdrop for $199.99, so it's not quite as huge of a difference.

I did some louder music listening in stereo today. I noticed that the speakers appear to sound better when seated than when standing. This is a little unfortunate, as it means impromptu dance parties won't sound as good. (not that I've had one of those since I was in my 20's...)

The Infinity towers have surprisingly good bass. I accidentally set them to "large" and disabled LFE + Main, so I essentially only had bass coming out of the towers. I did notice that it was a little weaker than usual at first, but it wasn't a HUGE difference. I didn't even know that nothing was coming from the sub until I touched it and felt that it wasn't vibrating.

I tried playback vs DLNA from my desktop. Apart from the additional lag, it sounded good. The lag was annoying. Maybe it's because I set up my computer to stream its output as WAV instead of some compressed format. Both are on the same wired gigabit network though, so I assumed WAV would fare better than some compressed format using CPU cycles that might lag things.

The manual EQ on the receiver is greyed out if MultEQ XT is turned on. I'm not sure I am sold on the feature, even though it is marketed as something awesome. I've dialed through the different settings, and some I like better than others, but I'm not convinced I shouldn't just disable it. I'll have to read up. I'm not even sure I know what it is doing and what the differences between the settings are. I think I like the "Bypass L/R" setting the most.
 
What you are getting hit with is mid bass, a region that we are much more sensitive too then lower end bass that your SVS is going to produce better. Your towers are ported and will produce great mid bass with those dual woofers, something most people actually go for these days as its is incredibly easier to obtain and is better for music.
 
So, I've had some issues with just one title, Star Wars: The Force Awakens.

For whatever reason, in this one title, the bass goes nuts, gets overdriven and in many cases sounds like ass (as an example, the opening scene right after the yellow star wars intro text fades off into the distance, and the star destroyer moves across the screen) It sounded as if the subwoofer was blowing itself up. Luckily it has self protection circuitry.

I noticed that turning off Audyssey's Dynamic EQ fixed this problem, but it also gave me much less impactful base across the titles I watch.

So, I've left dynamic EQ off, and turned my main speakers back to "large" mode, and use LFE+Main, so that they can help boost the bass down to their specified lower 35hz limit.

This will work for now. Down the line I'll likely want to invest in a second sub to help fill this one out. but I've spent enough on this system for now.

I also realized, I forgot to post my pic of my setup. Not visible are the Micca MB42x's as surrounds in the back corners standing on VideoSecu stands.

Covers where off the speakers as I was busy supergluing the pegs that hold the covers on. Apparently they have got the old, and started cracking. One of the downsides of buying used speakers.

32371281490_4121cff5f7_o.jpg
 
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Yea, 12" subs, no matter the maker won't go as low as you'd need them to in movies, especially a sealed cube. I'm fairly sure that dynamic EQ was either asking the amp to go into clipping mode or forcing your sub to bottom out. Either way, SVS is known for having good protection and excellent wear and tear so this shouldn't be an issue.

Also, Force Unleashed has a pretty high demand on constant bass too, it will force many amps to go into constant gain. I can clip my pro amp bridged on that movie very easy.

You should try watching:

X-men First Class
Tron: Legacy
Incredible Hulk (ed Norton)
The Haunting
 
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Trimlock said:
Yea, 12" subs, no matter the maker won't go as low as you'd need them to in movies, especially a sealed cube. I'm fairly sure that dynamic EQ was either asking the amp to go into clipping mode or forcing your sub to bottom out. Either way, SVS is known for having good protection and excellent wear and tear so this shouldn't be an issue.

Also, Force Unleashed has a pretty high demand on constant bass too, it will force many amps to go into constant gain. I can clip my pro amp bridged on that movie very easy.

You should try watching:

X-men First Class
Tron: Legacy
Incredible Hulk (ed Norton)
The Haunting
Click to expand...


Interesting. I thought it was a matter of the fact that is was sealed, and thus less efficient despite being a massive 400 watt, and not the fact that it was 12". So you need larger woofers to get down to lower frequencies? and how low do you really need to go? The SVS SB12-NSD I bought goes doesn't to 20hz. Do I really need to go lower than that?

I was considering saving for a while and picking up a second of the same model if they are still available on Amazon at that time (they have been discontinued after all) but are you suggesting I'd need something larger instead? All the bigger subs I see are kind of ridiculously expensive...
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
So, I've had some issues with just one title, Star Wars: The Force Awakens.

For whatever reason, in this one title, the bass goes nuts, gets overdriven and in many cases sounds like ass (as an example, the opening scene right after the yellow star wars intro text fades off into the distance, and the star destroyer moves across the screen) It sounded as if the subwoofer was blowing itself up. Luckily it has self protection circuitry.

I noticed that turning off Audyssey's Dynamic EQ fixed this problem, but it also gave me much less impactful base across the titles I watch.

So, I've left dynamic EQ off, and turned my main speakers back to "large" mode, and use LFE+Main, so that they can help boost the bass down to their specified lower 35hz limit.

This will work for now. Down the line I'll likely want to invest in a second sub to help fill this one out. but I've spent enough on this system for now.

I also realized, I forgot to post my pic of my setup. Not visible are the Micca MB42x's as surrounds in the back corners standing on VideoSecu stands.

Covers where off the speakers as I was busy supergluing the pegs that hold the covers on. Apparently they have got the old, and started cracking. One of the downsides of buying used speakers.

32371281490_4121cff5f7_o.jpg
Click to expand...

Dude, there's your problem.............

You have a doorway and fireplace in the way of your tv area, DOH. Just playing with you.
 
96redformula said:
Dude, there's your problem.............

You have a doorway and fireplace in the way of your tv area, DOH. Just playing with you.
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No, that really is a problem. The open floor plan (that wide doorway on the right, and there's another on the left that is even wider) as well as the highly reflective brick fireplace bcombine to make this a rather complicated room to make sound good.

I'll have to make the best of it though.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Interesting. I thought it was a matter of the fact that is was sealed, and thus less efficient despite being a massive 400 watt, and not the fact that it was 12". So you need larger woofers to get down to lower frequencies? and how low do you really need to go? The SVS SB12-NSD I bought goes doesn't to 20hz. Do I really need to go lower than that?

I was considering saving for a while and picking up a second of the same model if they are still available on Amazon at that time (they have been discontinued after all) but are you suggesting I'd need something larger instead? All the bigger subs I see are kind of ridiculously expensive...
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Yea it goes to 20hz, which is probably limited by both a DSP limite and mechanical limit. If you want hear/feel those low frequencies you need lots of power and big cones to move lots of air.

Honestly it's up to you if it's worth it, with my room I hit low htz easy. It's pretty awesome to feel a building collapse at 15hz.

As for direction, a second sub will double your output, if you stack them you could get an extra 6db out of it, which could be a massive increase over what you have. But adding more won't let you go deeper if your sub can't go deeper. A while ago I built a 12" and thought I could hit in the teens with it, technically I can but never broke 70db down there which wasn't all that great. I was learning and having fun trying different techniques to build up bass at the time. But with all the tricks it really boils down to very a few key factors; cone, xmax, power handling/spl ratio and room. With your doorway you won't get good room gain but that could be a good thing as you also have to treat a room to prevent crappy bass.

The sealed sub isn't less efficient it just gets the job done in a different way. The ported designs will always win in loudness up to the ported frequency, where you will have a massive drop off. The sealed will produce based off the power you give it and won't have a steep drop off prior to the speaker limitations. Sealed is also considerably smaller than ported. With a bit of money stacking two sealed subs will out do one large ported sub, so for those with no space it makes sense for sealed.

Btw I have an 18" in a 22x22x23 box (sealed) being fed 600 watts normally to 1000watts on movie night in a very open floor (more than yours) plan and I can shake the walls, did this for $700. Music is good enough but my sub speaker/driver is better for the lower frequencies and for music I get good enough punch out of it.
 
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So, I've taken this endeavor to phase 2, and thrown the budgetary caution to the wind. I was able to get a good deal on some discontinued high end RBH speakers. They aren't the best efficiency, but the representative models I heard sounded great! I've also decided to order a couple of subs.

Once this is all said and done, I will be rocking the following configuration:

Main L/R: RBH sx-6300
Center: RBH 441-se
Surrounds: RBH 41-se
Subs: Dual SVS PC13-Ultra's

I needed to congratulate myself for my new job, and get this audio shit out of my system and give myself no reason to keep upgrading. I hope I have succeeded. This may not be everyones end game setup, but I'm hoping it is mine. Only thing I might need after this is (actually, make that want, as I'm assured by everyone I won't NEED it) is a receiver with main L/R pre-outs and a set of monoblocks for those speakers. They sound great, but at 4 Ohms and only 88db efficiency the amp is suddenly the weakest link.
 
I'd be careful with those speakers and your receiver.

Those are nice speakers, I'm a fan of woofers set up in array like that.
 
Trimlock said:
I'd be careful with those speakers and your receiver.
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That was my first reaction too, but I've been assured by the engineers at RBH and other users of the same speakers that it should be fine as long as the volume isn't pinned.

Going to be very careful at first listening for any clipping until I get more of a comfort level.

To be clear, I'm not concerned about the receiver. If it gets overloaded it had good protective circuitry and will just shut down.

I'm concerned about clipping and damaging the speakers.

If I don't reach that comfort level I'll just pick up a couple of old NAD power amps and mono-block them, at first using one of those high level to libe level resistors and down the road with a higher end receiver with pre-amps.

The fact that I plan on doing the crossover at 80hz should help too.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
So, I've taken this endeavor to phase 2, and thrown the budgetary caution to the wind. I was able to get a good deal on some discontinued high end RBH speakers. They aren't the best efficiency, but the representative models I heard sounded great! I've also decided to order a couple of subs.

Once this is all said and done, I will be rocking the following configuration:

Main L/R: RBH sx-6300
Center: RBH 441-se
Surrounds: RBH 41-se
Subs: Dual SVS PC13-Ultra's

I needed to congratulate myself for my new job, and get this audio shit out of my system and give myself no reason to keep upgrading. I hope I have succeeded. This may not be everyones end game setup, but I'm hoping it is mine. Only thing I might need after this is (actually, make that want, as I'm assured by everyone I won't NEED it) is a receiver with main L/R pre-outs and a set of monoblocks for those speakers. They sound great, but at 4 Ohms and only 88db efficiency the amp is suddenly the weakest link.
Click to expand...

Nice choice in subs... I'm still rocking a SVS PB12-Ultra/2. A pair of PC13-Ultra's should easily make movie watching a visceral experience.... :D
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
That was my first reaction too, but I've been assured by the engineers at RBH and other users of the same speakers that it should be fine as long as the volume isn't pinned.

Going to be very careful at first listening for any clipping until I get more of a comfort level.

To be clear, I'm not concerned about the receiver. If it gets overloaded it had good protective circuitry and will just shut down.

I'm concerned about clipping and damaging the speakers.

If I don't reach that comfort level I'll just pick up a couple of old NAD power amps and mono-block them, at first using one of those high level to libe level resistors and down the road with a higher end receiver with pre-amps.

The fact that I plan on doing the crossover at 80hz should help too.
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Well the noise that gets introduced at those levels can be harmful. Until you get a proper receiver for that ohm loadage I'd refrain from upper listening levels.

Have fun with your new speakers I'm sure they will sound great!

Btw you should consider something from Emotiva to drive your new speakers. Once you hear them full range it will bring a smile to your face.
 
Trimlock said:
Well the noise that gets introduced at those levels can be harmful. Until you get a proper receiver for that ohm loadage I'd refrain from upper listening levels.
Click to expand...

To be fair my AVR's manual claims it can handle 4ohms on all channels. My bigger concern is the low:ish sensitivity and the fact that the AVR is right at the border of the recommended watt range. So clipping is my biggest concern.

Trimlock said:
Have fun with your new speakers I'm sure they will sound great!
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Thanks, I'm really looking forward to it when they get here.

Trimlock said:
Btw you should consider something from Emotiva to drive your new speakers. Once you hear them full range it will bring a smile to your face.
Click to expand...

I'll definitely take a look at those. Thanks for the recommendation.

Right now I'm primarily considering cheaper options, as I just spent way more money than I had ever planned on on speakers.

Late 80's to early 90's vintage NAD amps are praised over on the AVS forums for their great sound, high performance and low cost.

A NAD 2100 can be had for about $100 on eBay. While only rated at 50wpc at 8ohm, they have a reputation for greatly outperforming their ratings, and can be bridged to a 150w mono-block at 8ohm. Probably a little more into 4ohm. These amps are also wall regarded due to their very impressive dynamic power.

Two of these as monoblocks should be awesome.

If I can get them (they are a little more rare) the NAD 2200's are more powerful.

That being said I will investigate Emotiva too. I'm probably looking for just a 2 channel amp or a couple of monoblocks as I think the AVR is more than capable enough of handling the center and surrounds, especially once off-loading the center's.

My biggest concern in this regard is that I don't have pre-amp outs for my mains, so I either have to use those high level to line level resistor devices (no idea how safe/recommended these are) or invest in an all new AVR.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Late 80's to early 90's vintage NAD amps are praised over on the AVS forums for their great sound, high performance and low cost.

A NAD 2100 can be had for about $100 on eBay. While only rated at 50wpc at 8ohm, they have a reputation for greatly outperforming their ratings, and can be bridged to a 150w mono-block at 8ohm. Probably a little more into 4ohm. These amps are also wall regarded due to their very impressive dynamic power.

Two of these as monoblocks should be awesome.

If I can get them (they are a little more rare) the NAD 2200's are more powerful.
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About 6 minutes into this video the guy starts testing a similar NAD amp from the same time on an amplifier dyno. Standard power test is double rated power of 40Wpc at 8ohm, and dynamic power is crazy.


Rated at 40wpc into 8ohms, but measures over 80wpc certified and over 200Wpc dynamically.

Measures over 90w certified into 4ohm... ~350W dynamic into 4ohm. Insane for a 40W integrated amp.

He also does testing at 2ohms, but who the hell has speakers for that?

As far as the standalone amps go, the 2100 is rated at 50WPC, or 150W as a monoblock, and the 2200 is rated 100Wpc or 400W as a monoblock. I can only imageine what they actually put out, if they follow the same trend as the entry level 40WPC integrated amp.
 
Driving 4-ohm speakers from a bridged amp is the same as driving 2-ohm speakers without bridging. This is why most amps are rated only at 8 ohms with bridging, and answers "who the hell has 2?".

Audioholics measured the 6300R, and the 4-ohm rating is accurate. RBH controlled the phase pretty well, and using subs will reduce the demand on the amp in the bass. That said, I'd be VERY careful about running these speakers from most bridged amps.

Regarding used amps...

NAD has offered amazing value for decades, but I believe their amps aren't the most reliable. Output relays seem to be a common failure. Forum posts hint that these amps aren't easy to service, though I've never been inside one.

Emotiva also offers strong value, however their amps aren't the cleanest at low levels. Probably more of a problem for music than HT, but be aware before you spend.

Acurus can be a good deal on Ebay. Aragon & Bryston tend to be expensive.

Personally, I look for Parasound & ATI (which includes Crestron, JBL, Outlaw, etc.). ATI's modular construction makes servicing easy.

And a new pro amp for just the LR would help out your receiver without breaking the bank. Crowns & iNukes are rated for 2 ohms.
 
Adcom also should be on the list of good used values. Some have limited protection circuitry. And some were built by ATI.
 
HammerSandwich said:
Driving 4-ohm speakers from a bridged amp is the same as driving 2-ohm speakers without bridging. This is why most amps are rated only at 8 ohms with bridging, and answers "who the hell has 2?".

Audioholics measured the 6300R, and the 4-ohm rating is accurate. RBH controlled the phase pretty well, and using subs will reduce the demand on the amp in the bass. That said, I'd be VERY careful about running these speakers from most bridged amps.

Regarding used amps...

NAD has offered amazing value for decades, but I believe their amps aren't the most reliable. Output relays seem to be a common failure. Forum posts hint that these amps aren't easy to service, though I've never been inside one.

Emotiva also offers strong value, however their amps aren't the cleanest at low levels. Probably more of a problem for music than HT, but be aware before you spend.

Acurus can be a good deal on Ebay. Aragon & Bryston tend to be expensive.

Personally, I look for Parasound & ATI (which includes Crestron, JBL, Outlaw, etc.). ATI's modular construction makes servicing easy.

And a new pro amp for just the LR would help out your receiver without breaking the bank. Crowns & iNukes are rated for 2 ohms.
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Appreciate all the input.

I have decided to - at least for now - drive them directly from the AVR. It claims support for 4 ohms on all channels. If this is unsatisfactory, then I'll have to order a higher end AVR (maybe the x3300w?) so I can get pre-amp outs.

As far as amps go, I just picked up a used Emotiva UPA-2 locally on craigslist fgor my desktop setup.

At 125w per channel it is more than powerful enough for those 6300's should I want to use it there. Right now it is total overkill for my RBH 41-se desktop setup with my old HT sub, the SVS SB12-NSD.
 
Again it's not to say that the amps can't handle a 4ohm load, it's the noise that's introduced when running at 4ohms. Most the time this won't make a difference since this becomes an issue at lower hz and I think you said you were crossing at 80hz versus running your towers full range. It will still introduce lots of noise.
 
Trimlock said:
Again it's not to say that the amps can't handle a 4ohm load, it's the noise that's introduced when running at 4ohms. Most the time this won't make a difference since this becomes an issue at lower hz and I think you said you were crossing at 80hz versus running your towers full range. It will still introduce lots of noise.
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Well, they are up and running. I may still upgrade the AVR, so I can have pre-amp outs to the front/left channel so I can use my Emotive amp for them, but honestly they sound damned good as is. I don't run them at reference levels though, so I'm probably within lower noise levels.

rbh.jpg


rbh2.jpg
 
correct me if I'm wrong, but the ability to drive a passive sup is dependent on the amp within the sub, not the receiver's pre-out. I would check your settings to make sure you're not jacking up the decibels by accident from the auto setup. then run a few bass tests to see if it's a specific frequency
 
sweets3450 said:
correct me if I'm wrong, but the ability to drive a passive sup is dependent on the amp within the sub, not the receiver's pre-out. I would check your settings to make sure you're not jacking up the decibels by accident from the auto setup. then run a few bass tests to see if it's a specific frequency
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Not quite sure what you are responding to. I don't recall saying that I have a problem driving subs.

I'm talking about my main left and right towers. They are 4ohm, and by spec should have a 100-300w amp driving them, so I need pre-amp out for the left and right front channels so I can hook them up to a power amp.
 
Usually that recommended power is a load of crap. Lol

If they are loud enough on an amp that is probably only feeding them 50watts max I doubt you'd obtain anymore clarity over with a 150watt amp.
 
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