Recommend me an amplifier please

[DaRuSsIaMaN]

Hello guys,

I have a used pair of Mirage M-190iS that I got through craigslist some time back, and I'm finally setting them up. Right now it will be a 2.0 setup. I might want to add a subwoofer at some point later, but I will try these out by themselves first. This will be my first set of (passive) bookshelf speakers. All the speakers I've owned up to this point have been simple "computer" speakers by Logitech, etc. I've never bought an amplifier before either.

Could I get some recommendations? I don't really know how to pick or shop for an amplifier. I'll say my budget is under $100. I'm also not sure how much of a difference the amplifier will make in the entire audio chain (source -> sound card -> amp -> speakers). If it helps, I have a HT Omega Striker 7.1 sound card.

Thanks!

 

[B00nie]

For under 100 bucks you don't have much options. The Dayton Audio DTA-120 is one option. http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-dta-120-class-t-mini-amplifier-60-wpc--300-3800

 

[DaRuSsIaMaN]

For under 100 bucks you don't have much options. The Dayton Audio DTA-120 is one option. http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-dta-120-class-t-mini-amplifier-60-wpc--300-3800

Really? Would I be wasting the potential of my sound card and speakers? I thought that neither my sound card nor speakers are super great, so I figured it wouldn't make sense to spend a lot on the amplifier. What do you think?

How much difference would there be if I went for something really cheap, such as the Lepai LP-2020A+? (It was recommended in this video, which someone posted in the Q/A section in your link.)

Thanks!

 

[Palladium@SG]

Really? Would I be wasting the potential of my sound card and speakers? I thought that neither my sound card nor speakers are super great, so I figured it wouldn't make sense to spend a lot on the amplifier. What do you think?

How much difference would there be if I went for something really cheap, such as the Lepai LP-2020A+? (It was recommended in this video, which someone posted in the Q/A section in your link.)

Thanks!

Just for a reference my Trends 10W per channel T-amp can drive a pair of 8 Ohm 86dB/W speakers uncomfortably loud in my rather large living room.

The Lepai probably can get a clean 5W per channel max...Which IMO is no problem for near field use or an average-sized bedroom. For $27 you can't really go wrong.

 

[B00nie]

Really? Would I be wasting the potential of my sound card and speakers? I thought that neither my sound card nor speakers are super great, so I figured it wouldn't make sense to spend a lot on the amplifier. What do you think?

How much difference would there be if I went for something really cheap, such as the Lepai LP-2020A+? (It was recommended in this video, which someone posted in the Q/A section in your link.)

Thanks!

The T-class amplifier is only good as far as the price goes. The Dayton audio has a better sound quality.

If you have crappy speakers you can use the Lepai no probs, your sound will suck regardless of the amp you use.

Sound source is usually by far the most accurate component of your whole audio system, that is the last place to improve in the system if you count out inter cables.

The speakers have the absolute biggest impact on overall sound, next comes your amplifier, third your audio source (if your source is something decent like a sound card, mp3 player, phone etc which produce hi-fi quality). And last is cables.

The reason for this is that if you have a budget of 100 dollars, you:

- Can build an awesome sound card and low level pre-amp
- Can build an awesome digital player that produces low level signal with 0.00005% THD
- Can build a really mediocre power amplifier that produces either little power cleanly or a bit more power nastily at 0.1% THD
- Can build a pretty crappy speaker (and nothing more) that generates 5% THD at 20 watts.

 

[DaRuSsIaMaN]

Well, the volume level should not be an issue since this is for a bedroom, and I live with 3 other roommates on this floor. So I wouldn't be able to blast music on high volume even if I want to.

The main concern, then, is sound quality. Thanks for the detailed description, B00nie! Would I be able to notice a significant difference between the $100 Dayton device vs the $27 Lepai? I'm not sure how good my ear for music is but I'm pretty sure I don't qualify as an "audiophile". There's also another unknown here. I don't know how good these speakers are. They're some old model, and I got them from a dude on Craigslist. I've never tried them out yet. For all I know, the previous owner might have dropped them like 50 times, and they sound like shit.

In any case, I'm willing to take a chance and spend more than that cheap Lepai. However, are there any other options that are better but also have treble/bass knobs? It's not a requirement but seems like it might be a nice touch to have those adjustments so easily available. I also require a headphone jack. I just noticed the Lepai doesn't have that, so that option is out.

I'm down for the DTA-120 unless you guys know of another similar option that also features bass/treble knobs?

 

[B00nie]

If I were you I would first take a look at my speakers, are they up to the task.

If your speakers are really entry level or down right bad, I would spend every penny available there first, then perhaps get the Lepai amp.

If your speakers are already hi-fi quality then you probably should get the Dayton amp instead. Speakers are by far your most demanding purchase, not only because they're the most expensive to build right but also because each speaker works differently in different rooms. A speaker that sounds boomy and heavy in one room may sound top heavy and flat in an open large room. Only way to know is to study and most importantly, test first, buy second.

The Mirage speakers seem to be 25 years old already and they were on the cheap side even back then - but it was considered a nice speaker for the time. Keep in mind that demands have evolved a lot since then. But probably they're a good point to start with. If I were you I would probably get the Dayton just for futures sake. You might want to upgrade your speakers next and then you might regret using the Lepai.

 

[Arcygenical]

The Lepai will get you around 7-10w per channel @ 6 ohms.
The Dayton will get you 50w per channel.

This translates into a 50% increase in output power, since speaker volumes double (considering a specific frequency tone) by increasing the wattage tenfold.

At 10w the Dayton will produce the same volume as the Lepai can at full power, but it will do so without stress, and will sound considerably better.

I'm assuming your speakers are around 86dba/1w. That means they'll hit 96dba @ 10w, or 101~dba @ 50w. 96dba isn't loud at all. But, I suppose I'm a bit of a snob as I'm running car audio amps inside that don't mind dumping 700wrms into my 4 ways... And I go out clubbing a lot .

The speakers will have almost zero response below 60hz, so if you listen to... well... any kind of music, be it rock, edm or drum and bass, you'll likely need some low-end coverage. Some of those monoprice amplified 12" woofers for about 130$ will do the trick nicely for your system. As will the parts express dayton 12" for 120$.

 

[AVT]

I like true digital amps, as long as you can deal with USB input only.

http://hifimediy.com/amplifiers/ready-made-amplifiers/ud80-digital-amplifier

 

[DaRuSsIaMaN]

The speakers will have almost zero response below 60hz, so if you listen to... well... any kind of music, be it rock, edm or drum and bass, you'll likely need some low-end coverage. Some of those monoprice amplified 12" woofers for about 130$ will do the trick nicely for your system. As will the parts express dayton 12" for 120$.

Well, right now my speakers are this:
http://www.amazon.com/Crasher-Portable-Bluetooth-Speaker-Battery/dp/B00A44RLWC

So, first and foremost I need something better than that . By this standard, a Logitech 2.0 setup will probably have awesome bass. But yeah, I'll look into a woofer later. I just want to get this first part running already. I've put this off and lived with this misery long enough. Because... grad school, I dunno.

Thanks for the other stuff you explained, also.

 

[DaRuSsIaMaN]

How about speaker wire? parts-express has several categories. Should I go for the first one, "Hi-Fi Speaker Wire"? It seems to be the cheapest.

 

[BillR]

How about speaker wire? parts-express has several categories. Should I go for the first one, "Hi-Fi Speaker Wire"? It seems to be the cheapest.

Why not grab a real amp/receiver from eBay? Case in point this Harmon Kardon. It has a real amp section, it's high current (current drives speakers not watts) and it's surround to boot. It has a great headphone section as well.

Lot's of other good choices there for the budget buyer as well, some Denon, Yamaha etc.

Those speakers you have are pretty good and well rated. A "T" amp just won't cut it if you like music and clean sound

 

[dandragonrage]

How about speaker wire? parts-express has several categories. Should I go for the first one, "Hi-Fi Speaker Wire"? It seems to be the cheapest.

If you go with the Lepai, 18 gauge speaker wire would be fine because it's such low power though you could upgrade slightly to 16 gauge which is still cheap. If you go with something 50W/channel or higher, like the Dayton DTA-120 or perhaps a receiver, you should go with 16 gauge wire. You could go better and get 14 or even 12 but it's really not necessary.

Brand of speaker wire isn't particularly important but some of the no-names lie about the gauge.. You might want to buy one step larger (lower gauge number) if it's a no-name brand.

Also, while there are a couple of T-amp haters in here, those amps are actually pretty good overall and VERY good for the money. But I do recommend a used receiver or something if you can fit it. But your system will still sound good with a T-amp since those are 8 ohm speakers (4 ohm speakers are not so good for some class D amps like the cheaper Tripath ones). .

 

[B00nie]

When choosing speaker wires remember that thicker is generally better. The longer your wire is, the smaller gauge (or higher square mm) you need to get.

 

[DaRuSsIaMaN]

What about flat vs. not-flat wire?

Also, why does it seem like every option is so long? I wouldn't know what to do with 50ft. It's just for my computer desk...

 

[Nenu]

Flat is for convenience, it is less visible and can be fed under a carpet.

Boonie is right, fatter wire is indeed better.
I have tested this quite a lot and ended up settling on the fattest good value high quality wire I could find.
And then I bi-wired it lol.
The difference between fatter and thinner wire is the fatter wire has better bass extension/stronger bass and treble is smoother (less edgy) and more detailed.
Bi-wiring made the treble a little more detailed and improved stereo imaging. (on bi wire speakers)

You may not be able to tell the difference or even care about it.
ie if your speakers dont respond very deep, better bass response might not matter as that will be your subs job.
If your tweeter speakers are soft dome or you are running a lower end DAC you might not hear the treble differences.
But you may as well use the wire if you are buying a 50ft reel.
Not all music shows the benefits, test with a wide variety of material.

ps the wire I settled on can be bought from Amazon.
Search using the following:
Van Damme Hi-Fi UP-LCOFC
The prices are for a single wire pair to one speaker, you can cut it for multiple speakers.
I bought the 6mm version.

Other Van Damme is good value as well, I recommend at least 2.5mm wire, preferably 4mm + if you intend on putting a fair amount of power to your speakers.
The UP-LCOFC clear wire is definitely clearer than the Van Damme Blue on my system.

pps the above is my experience, not what I read somewhere or something that somebody told me
If somebody else has their own experience that differs, I dont mind, but please leave me be.
I'm happy to discuss it without back handed comments.
The above is in case you want to do your best.

 

[|Tch0rT|]

Boonie is right, fatter wire is indeed better.
I have tested this quite a lot and ended up settling on the fattest good value high quality wire I could find.
And then I bi-wired it lol.
The difference between fatter and thinner wire is the fatter wire has better bass extension/stronger bass and treble is smoother (less edgy) and more detailed.
Bi-wiring made the treble a little more detailed and improved stereo imaging. (on bi wire speakers)

Your explanation of fatter wire vs thinner wire... uh no. Think of electricity flowing like water. Does water flow better through a thin pipe or a large pipe? It's about making sure the wire can carry the needed power.

Bi-wiring does nothing more than give cable companies more money and you have less in your wallet. It helps sell shit. It has the same effect if you'd just used a thicker gauge of wire, that's it. If bi-wiring made a difference it's either expectation bias, placebo, or you weren't using the correct gauge of wire to begin with.

Bi-wiring is a more recent myth, and it's a pretend relative to biamping, which is legitimate. No single-speaker the entire driver can reproduce range of audible frequencies, so speaker makers use two or three drivers-woofers and tweeters-to handle each range. Biamping splits the audio into low/high- or low/mid/highfrequency ranges, and each range goes to a separate amplifier that in tum powers each speaker driver. This avoids passive crossovers that lose some of their power as heat and usually add distortion. Bi-wiring uses two separate speaker wires, but they're both connected to the same power amplifier that then feeds a passive crossover!

The Audio Expert: Everything You Need to Know About Audio by Ethan Winer.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Audio-Expert-Everything-About/dp/0240821009

 

[dandragonrage]

Your explanation of fatter wire vs thinner wire... uh no. Think of electricity flowing like water. Does water flow better through a thin pipe or a large pipe? It's about making sure the wire can carry the needed power.

Bi-wiring does nothing more than give cable companies more money and you have less in your wallet. It helps sell shit. It has the same effect if you'd just used a thicker gauge of wire, that's it. If bi-wiring made a difference it's either expectation bias, placebo, or you weren't using the correct gauge of wire to begin with.

^ this is all correct

Thicker wire is always better but there are diminishing returns. 16 gauge is the appropriate size for most systems. Inexpensive, but low enough resistance for nearly anything. Running significant power or long distances might make 16 gauge non-ideal. And for subwoofers I'd use 12 gauge or 10 gauge (for active subwoofers this only matters for the short length of wire inside the subwoofer).

 

[HammerSandwich]

The difference between fatter and thinner wire is the fatter wire has better bass extension/stronger bass and treble is smoother (less edgy) and more detailed.
Bi-wiring made the treble a little more detailed and improved stereo imaging. (on bi wire speakers)

You absolutely canNOT make absolute claims about audible differences between cables like this. All cable effects are system-dependent, meaning that cable A may be brighter than B in system 1 but the opposite in 2.

That said, lower resistance is better. If you upgrade to lower-impedance speakers, biwiring buys 3ga improvement (e.g., 12ga -> 9.), which may be cheaper than swapping to fatter wires.

 

[Fenris_Ulf]

Wire is the least important or even noticeable part of your audio system, especially for a near-field system. Bigger wire? If you're using average speakers, you've got 89 db per speaker at 1 watt, for 95 db total. That's like having two lawnmowers in the room with you, which is crazy loud. Actual power usage is probably closer to 0.1 watts or less on average. In this instance, tiny differences in resistance are negligible. Exotic cable is mostly snake oil, it has a huge markup and numerous A-B tests have shown no ability to discern a difference.

 

[Nenu]

You absolutely canNOT make absolute claims about audible differences between cables like this. All cable effects are system-dependent, meaning that cable A may be brighter than B in system 1 but the opposite in 2.

That said, lower resistance is better. If you upgrade to lower-impedance speakers, biwiring buys 3ga improvement (e.g., 12ga -> 9.), which may be cheaper than swapping to fatter wires.

I can tell you what effect it has on my system and the general effects from trying it on other systems.
If thats not good enough then I dont see the point of a discussion.

 

[B00nie]

Wire is the least important or even noticeable part of your audio system, especially for a near-field system. Bigger wire? If you're using average speakers, you've got 89 db per speaker at 1 watt, for 95 db total. That's like having two lawnmowers in the room with you, which is crazy loud. Actual power usage is probably closer to 0.1 watts or less on average. In this instance, tiny differences in resistance are negligible. Exotic cable is mostly snake oil, it has a huge markup and numerous A-B tests have shown no ability to discern a difference.

Right and wrong. The cable thickness and shape has very clear (and measurable) electrical effects on speaker sound. The effects are true regardless of volume used. The cable has inductance, capacitance, resistance etc. values that change according to thickness, shape, amount of cables, twisting the cable, surface area vs thickness etc.

Different cables are required for extremely low impedance and high capacitance speakers such as ESL:s and different cables for woofers and conventional speakers.

http://sound.westhost.com/cablewhitepaper.htm

For conventional speakers the main criteria is to have good enough thickness vs length and speaker impedance. The lower the speaker impedance, the lower gauge wire you need vs length.

 

[DaRuSsIaMaN]

Alright then...

16 AWG speaker wire, check
wire stripper, check
DTA-120 amp, check

... guess now I just need to fill the cart with some other crap I need to buy off Amazon anyway, to get the free shipping.

I guess having a receiver with a remote and other capabilities would be cool, but I don't think I want to fuss with this any longer. And the smaller footprint on the amp is nice.

 

[AVT]

I still prefer the HiFiMeDIY amp linked earlier to the DTA-120 if you can live with USB input.

 

[DaRuSsIaMaN]

Hmm, thank you but that looks like a few extra inconveniences. How do I even make this USB input work with my Striker 7.1 soundcard? The card has some kind of optical cable ports (I don't even know what those are all about), and the regular analog ports. Also this amp has no headphone jack, right? Not a total deal breaker but it's slightly less convenient to plug headphones into my PC and then controlling volume through software.

 

[dandragonrage]

Hmm, thank you but that looks like a few extra inconveniences. How do I even make this USB input work with my Striker 7.1 soundcard? The card has some kind of optical cable ports (I don't even know what those are all about), and the regular analog ports. Also this amp has no headphone jack, right? Not a total deal breaker but it's slightly less convenient to plug headphones into my PC and then controlling volume through software.

You can't use USB with a sound card, so anything USB would be used instead of one. Another option is to use the optical (TOSlink) output to a receiver or a TOSlink DAC. But it's unlikely that you would gain any benefits over a good sound card. When comparing to onboard, these things are sometimes an improvement (because onboard varies in quality so much) but rarely are good sound cards problematic like onboard can be.

 

[DaRuSsIaMaN]

Thanks.

Also, apparently OFC wire is supposed to be better than CCA? If so I'll just switch to this one instead of the one I linked above. Only $0.20 more.

Edit: Could it be a scam? Is full-copper wire supposed to be noticeably more expensive than aluminum-with-copper-coating wire?

 

[dandragonrage]

Also, apparently OFC wire is supposed to be better than CCA? If so I'll just switch to this one instead of the one I linked above. Only $0.20 more.

It doesn't matter in this case. Copper wire will have lower resistance and carry more current than copper-clad-aluminum (CCA) but you're not going to be pushing the current handling of the cable so it doesn't matter. Still, for $0.20 more, I myself would probably go for the copper. If it were a several dollar difference then I would go for CCA in this case.

For a higher power home theater setup where you might run a couple hundred watts, I would neither buy 16 gauge nor CCA wire. I would buy 12-gauge copper wire for that. But that's not the setup we're discussing in this thread, so you do not need to go that route.

Edit: Oh, and there is no practical difference between "copper" and "oxygen-free copper" cable. The oxygen-free part is a marketing gimmick. Any copper cable will be sufficiently oxygen-free unless it's old and/or it sits underwater. It will turn green if the oxygen has become a problem, meaning the copper has oxidized. If it hasn't done that, it's fine.

A step above copper is silver-clad copper and a step above that is silver wire, but even at high power, it's not worth the cost unless you manage to get some for a great price. And when I say a great price, I meant relative to copper, not "this silver wire is normally $500000 but could be yours today for three easy payments of just $4,999. Shipping and handling not included."

As a side note since we're discussing materials - gold. Specifically gold connectors. What these do is prevent oxidizing since gold doesn't oxidize (this is actually the main reason why it's been used for currency for so long). It doesn't improve sound quality, just reliability of connections. It's bad, though, if you often unplug and replug your cables, because gold is very soft and wears off with repeated replugs. And once it wears off you are left with something that will probably oxidize very easily.

 

[qhash]

good option is cambridge audio stram magic, it can work as DAC. However, this is not an amplifier it requires one or just buy stream magic and add active speakers - that is my setup and it works perfect, especially it has XLR outputs.