Received Engineering Sample CPUs instead of retail. Am I right to ask for refund?

Status
Not open for further replies.
M

MarcusXP

Gawd
Joined
Sep 23, 2007
Messages
926
I bought two Xeon X5650 and a Tyan motherboard from user DivineSmack
In his thread he never mentioned about the CPUs being Engineering Samples. If I knew they were ES-es, I wouldn't have bought them in the first place.

So here's the story:

1. I have enough feedback on heatware and RedFlagDeals, but he put me on hold for 5 days until the payment was cleared, so he would finally ship the package.
2. After waiting for almost a week, he said that he finally shipped the package, but it took him one week (after the 5 days waiting to "clear the payment" into his bank account) to give me the tracking number (basically I received it the day before the package arrived). I messaged him a few times, and he kept delaying me, invoking different reasons. Finally, I threatened with Paypal claim, since I had to wait 5 + 7 days to receive a tracking number!
3. He was dishonest from the beginning by not specifying exactly what he is selling. One would understand that he was selling the retail version, which is not true, he had ES CPUs for sale.
4. I offered $1700 for the two X5650 and the motherboard, which I think it was fair for two used X5650 and one used Tyan motherboard. However, these are ES CPUs, which is a different story. I feel that I made a bad deal, after I waited two weeks, I received Engineering Samples, without warranty. He said that I am "blackmailing" him... lol!
I got screwed by receiving Engineering Sample CPUs and I want my money back!
Either full refund and I ship everything back, either $200 refund ($100 per each CPU), which I believe it is VERY reasonable.

Am I right to ask for refund or not? Am I the only one who thinks that I made a "not so great" deal and got screwed a little bit?
 
Yes your well within your right to ask for a refund. Delays aside, ES should be clearly stated because the lack of warranty.
Posted via Mobile Device
 
On a technical level I don't think you got screwed by getting engineering samples unless they are really early silicon. However, you aren't supposed to sell engineering sample CPUs. Period. Intel doesn't like that. In fact Intel has been known to come down on sellers of ES CPUs in the past and that's probably why he didn't advertise the fact that they were ES parts to begin with. If you have a problem with buying ES CPUs (and without warranty, that makes sense) then by all means I think a refund is reasonable. I don't think I fully understand you when you are talking about getting $100 per CPU. If you are wanting this on top of a full refund I think that's a bit much. I think having the guy pay for return shipping is absolutely reasonable though.
 
Well if he the thread was here on [H] (which I'm assuming it was then he should have known it was against the rules to sell ES cpus). Now that it's after the fact I'm not sure what your options are but I think I'd be a little ticked too. The first step is always to approach the seller nicely and try to work something out. Then escalate from there.
 
Well these are the two options that I proposed to him:

Option 1. He would refund $200 from the original payment (so refund $100 for each CPU) and I get to keep the ES-es and the motherboard. That means they cost me $1500 (down from $1700 which is what I originally payed) which isn't great, but it is pretty fair I would say. The main reason for refund is that the ES CPUs don't have warranty, as opposed to the retail version. Plus there is a risk (small, but exists) that the CPUs are not fully functional or not all features are enabled.

Option2. He would send full refund and I would ship everything back at his expense, and we forget about this story. Next time when he tries to sell ES-es, he should mention that in the add. These are 'not so pleasant' surprises for the buyer...

He basically rejected both options 1 and 2, saying that I am "blackmailing" him.

Here are our last messages:
DivineSmack said:
So essentially this is now blackmail. Because I didnt know they were ES and now you feel they are worth less, which they are not. So now you want me to eat $200 additional which is never going to happen. I paid a fee to receive your payment, then additional money to send it even though you agreed to pay additional funds for the shipping which you did not. As I see this you have threatened me from the beginning asking for a refund when the package was already sent, asking me to send though payment hadn't cleared, and now want to try to blackmail me to refunding you cash. NO way. Go ahead and post and see what people say but its pointless. You have received everything you asked and more. I shipped as I said I would. I sent it at my expense. I received less than I wanted for payment and now you want to get more money back.

MarcusXP said:
The price is not as good as you say.. I bought just two weeks before you a pair of X5650 (retail, not ES) for $600/ea. I believe I was mislead in this deal. If I knew they were Engineering Samples I would never offered $1700 for the combo. You should've been honest from the beginning, not trying to hide the truth behind a 'good price'. For ES CPUs, the price is not very good at all.
Either you refund $200 ($100 for each CPU is pretty fair), either I ship them back at your expense. Your choice. If you want, I can start a post on [H] asking for other people's opinion, but I think I am being reasonable.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
shoota said:
Well if he the thread was here on [H] (which I'm assuming it was then he should have known it was against the rules to sell ES cpus). Now that it's after the fact I'm not sure what your options are but I think I'd be a little ticked too. The first step is always to approach the seller nicely and try to work something out. Then escalate from there.
Click to expand...

And yeah, the thread is here on [H]:
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1600451

He seems to be a reliable user (8yrs+) on[H], why would he behave like this?
 
things are not always as simple as they seems because of the fact none of the side know the truth of the other side (reason why i hate law, don't brake them but don't like them either)

i would suggest what is best price you want to get it for and please be reasonable, don't need to tell me, tell him/her, as i'm not sure but the Engineering samples are probably free to the tester ?!?! (not sure educate me) you should also see the functionality and see if they are worth the new price you are going to offer him, if it works out you both be happy and you get to keep good chips (don't know if it's potato or corn chip, but treat it like the one you like :D)

many other forums prohibits the sale of such items, not sure if it is same here (didn't see it in the rules) but it is actually against the law to sold such a item. of course, you are not in trouble till you get caught or guilty till proven so.
 
Well this is a tough situation. My first inclination is to side with you Marcus because it's the sellers responsibility to know what he's selling. Him saying that he didn't know isn't a good excuse. It's pretty much the same thing as claiming innocence to breaking a law because you didn't know it was a law. Guess what? The courts don't care if you didn't know.
Did you pay through PayPal?
 
So far the CPUs seem to be in good working condition, but I only installed the OS on that computer and not much else.
However it is not guaranteed that they don't have any "glitches", until more comprehensive testing is done.

My offer was $1700 for the two CPUs and the motherboard, including shipping.
A simplistic way of splitting the money across the components:
- (2x) $700 for the CPUs
- $300 for the motherboard

My later proposal was to refund $100 for each CPU, that leaving the CPUs at $600/ea. I think it is pretty fair considering that they don't have warranty, and I accept the risk that they might have some issues (that cannot be seen until more comprehensive testing is done).

And yes, the CPUs are distributed for free by Intel to some system integrators (like Dell, IBM, etc), so they would test them with their hardware prior to the official release. This is part of the QA process, if any problem would be found, Intel would correct them when the retail version is released.
That doesn't mean that the ES-es have "0" value, there is still market for these CPUs, despite the fact that Intel forbids the sale of these CPUs). However, the ES-es should sell for much less than the retail version (due to lack of warranty + possible issues + forbidden sale)
 
Kroz said:
Maybe he didn't know they were ES? I'm not familiar with ES chips though so maybe Intel has big glowing ES letters on top of the CPU. :confused:
Click to expand...

Nonsense. I've handled more ES CPUs than most people and you can easily identify them. They are physically marked "Intel Confidential -ES" on the heat spreaders. If you've ever run CPU-Z on a system you can tell if the CPUs are engineering samples or not. The program detects the "ES" designation and reports it.

shoota said:
Well this is a tough situation. My first inclination is to side with you Marcus because it's the sellers responsibility to know what he's selling. Him saying that he didn't know isn't a good excuse. It's pretty much the same thing as claiming innocence to breaking a law because you didn't know it was a law. Guess what? The courts don't care if you didn't know.
Did you pay through PayPal?
Click to expand...

See above. Not knowing or saying you didn't know that is nonsense.
 
Kroz said:
Maybe he didn't know they were ES? I'm not familiar with ES chips though so maybe Intel has big glowing ES letters on top of the CPU. :confused:
Click to expand...

Oh yea from the way he answered my message, he was well aware that the CPUs where Engineering Samples..
Here are two previous messages that we exchanged:


DivineSmack said:
They were retail units. They operate identically to the retails plus my understanding from several sources online is that Intel sells ES's quite often. Regardless you got an awesome deal. Everything is fully operational, I did as you asked and you got well over a $2500 rig for much less than I originally asked.

MarcusXP said:
Man, I took out the CPUs, and surprise.. they are Engineering Samples (Intel Confidential) CPUs.
That means they don't have any warranty.. and they sell for much less than the retail CPUs.
What do we do? You did not say anything about this, I understood that these are production version, with warranty. The ES-es are selling for much less on ebay. I would expect at least $100 less, so I think it would be fair to refund $200 from my original payment...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
MarcusXP said:
Oh yea from the way he answered my message, he was well aware that the CPUs where Engineering Samples..
Here are two previous messages that we exchanged:
Click to expand...

Intel doesn't "sell" ES CPUs. Every once in awhile an accident occurs and one makes its way into a retail package. It's been known to happen once in awhile. However the CPUs are distributed to a variety of sources and those sources aren't supposed to resell them.
 
So he knew they are Engineering Samples but he chose not to mention this in the thread.
Probably because:
1) They are forbidden for sale on [H]
2) He would've had to ask much less than he originally asked for them.

And yeah, on the CPUs you can see very clear the text "Intel Confidential", but there is no CPU model (like X5650).
 
yeah man, id be a little aggravated. You guys need to either reverse the whole deal ,or he needs to be giving you some compensation. Thats a big purchase for him to think he can talk his way out of. Good luck.
 
Dan_D said:
Intel doesn't "sell" ES CPUs. Every once in awhile an accident occurs and one makes its way into a retail package. It's been known to happen once in awhile. However the CPUs are distributed to a variety of sources and those sources aren't supposed to resell them.
Click to expand...

Yeah well that's what he said, not me.
I know that Intel doesn't sell Engineering Samples.. there was even a statement somewhere on Intel website about ES-es and how to handle them. Basically they forbid the sale of these, they specify they don't have any kind of warranty, and they say if you received any of these CPUs, to return them to the place of purchase, and request replacement with retail version - duh!
 
Dan_D said:
Nonsense. I've handled more ES CPUs than most people and you can easily identify them. They are physically marked "Intel Confidential -ES" on the heat spreaders. If you've ever run CPU-Z on a system you can tell if the CPUs are engineering samples or not. The program detects the "ES" designation and reports it.



See above. Not knowing or saying you didn't know that is nonsense.
Click to expand...

MarcusXP said:
Oh yea from the way he answered my message, he was well aware that the CPUs where Engineering Samples..
Here are two previous messages that we exchanged:
Click to expand...

Sorry, wasn't offering a defense just a reason as to why the seller didn't say they were ES's.
 
You have every right to file a claim with paypal. He basically lied to you about what you were getting, and that is bad ethics, illegal under the law, and falls into Paypal's category of "significantly not as described." I say just file the claim, and leave it in his hands to make the decision. If he decides to refund everything, make sure to ask him to pay for the return shipping expense. If he doesn't pay that, then I say you have every right to hang onto those items until he does. If he does the partial refund, well, that's how it'll go.

And also, be sure to leave heatware now, and then possibly change it later on depending on how he handles it.
 
nicknations said:
yeah man, id be a little aggravated. You guys need to either reverse the whole deal ,or he needs to be giving you some compensation. Thats a big purchase for him to think he can talk his way out of. Good luck.
Click to expand...

That's exactly what I proposed him:
1. Refund $200 from the original amount and I keep everything as-is
or
2. Reverse transaction, send full refund and I ship everything back at his expense (it's not my fault that he fails to mention an important detail like the CPUs being Engineering Samples).

... but he refused to choose any of these options.
Am I unreasonable? Should I start a claim with Paypal? What are my chances to winning the claim? Paypal kind of sux.. they might deny the claim because he indeed shipped "some" CPUs - although not what he originally stated it would be... but I've seen Paypal doing this kind of stupid things before..
 
MarcusXP said:
That's exactly what I proposed him:
1. Refund $200 from the original amount and I keep everything as-is
or
2. Reverse transaction, send full refund and I ship everything back at his expense (it's not my fault that he fails to mention an important detail like the CPUs being Engineering Samples).

... but he refused to choose any of these options.
Am I unreasonable? Should I start a claim with Paypal? What are my chances to winning the claim? Paypal kind of sux.. they might deny the claim because he indeed shipped "some" CPUs - although not what he originally stated it would be... but I've seen Paypal doing this kind of stupid things before..
Click to expand...

Yeah, they can do some stupid things, but you never know, and it would scare the hell out of him (maybe). I filed a claim once on an airsoft pistol, because it didn't work properly. Guy stopped responding, so I did the claim. Apparently it subtracts that amount from his paypal balance, so the guy was scared to hell when he saw that he had a paypal balance of -$130. Which prompted him to do the partial refund I asked for. I think the effect would be much more significant when he sees a paypal balance of -$1700.

Make sure to take screenshots of everything related to the sale, including the original post to make sure he does not change the thread after the fact. And do it now. After that, take a couple pictures of the CPU's you got. Besides, you have 30 days before paypal forces a decision after you file the claim.
 
Tsumi said:
Yeah, they can do some stupid things, but you never know, and it would scare the hell out of him (maybe). I filed a claim once on an airsoft pistol, because it didn't work properly. Guy stopped responding, so I did the claim. Apparently it subtracts that amount from his paypal balance, so the guy was scared to hell when he saw that he had a paypal balance of -$130. Which prompted him to do the partial refund I asked for. I think the effect would be much more significant when he sees a paypal balance of -$1700.

Make sure to take screenshots of everything related to the sale, including the original post to make sure he does not change the thread after the fact. And do it now. After that, take a couple pictures of the CPU's you got. Besides, you have 30 days before paypal forces a decision after you file the claim.
Click to expand...

Good point!
The original description is still there, so I took a screenshot do I can use it in the Paypal claim.
He basically asked for $2400 on a whole system, and I offered $1700 for the CPUs and motherboard alone. He mentioned that the CPUs alone are worth $1000/each.. well NOT if they are Engineering Samples!

I will start the Paypal claim and I will provide them pictures of the physical CPUs (showing the text "Intel Confidential" on them) and screenshot of the original thread, with the misleading description. That should be enough for them to decide the claim in my favour..
 
Presumably Intel would attempt to track them......so contact them. Maybe the original seller didn't know and got sold these units without really looking too hard at them, or had his system built and never saw the CPUs.

If he's going to lose his supply line to ES unit CPUs because they can track those units and they were given to him, he's not going to be happy and will avoid that road. Or he'll say go for it because he (possibly) thinks you're trying to do a switcheroo on him.

Either way, if they are essentially considered not to be sold.... I don't think you should want anything to do with them. Hopefully seller has pictures or documentation proving what he sold you so he can confirm no switch occurred on your end.

I don't think Paypal would have any problems reversing the charges if you show them the original for sale thread. Did he ever offer any pictures of the components before sending them to you? Or the boxes?...anything at all that would indicate these were not retail units?
 
veterator said:
Presumably Intel would attempt to track them......so contact them. Maybe the original seller didn't know and got sold these units without really looking too hard at them, or had his system built and never saw the CPUs.

If he's going to lose his supply line to ES unit CPUs because they can track those units and they were given to him, he's not going to be happy and will avoid that road. Or he'll say go for it because he (possibly) thinks you're trying to do a switcheroo on him.

Either way, if they are essentially considered not to be sold.... I don't think you should want anything to do with them. Hopefully seller has pictures or documentation proving what he sold you so he can confirm no switch occurred on your end.

I don't think Paypal would have any problems reversing the charges if you show them the original for sale thread. Did he ever offer any pictures of the components before sending them to you? Or the boxes?...anything at all that would indicate these were not retail units?
Click to expand...

No, not really. He didn't send me any pictures with the stuff.
But the seller already acknowledged that he sold me Engineering Samples, as you can see in one of my previous posts. He just claims that they are worth the money that I payed, and I shouldn't be given any refund.
 
MarcusXP said:
So far the CPUs seem to be in good working condition, but I only installed the OS on that computer and not much else.
However it is not guaranteed that they don't have any "glitches", until more comprehensive testing is done.

My offer was $1700 for the two CPUs and the motherboard, including shipping.
A simplistic way of splitting the money across the components:
- (2x) $700 for the CPUs
- $300 for the motherboard

My later proposal was to refund $100 for each CPU, that leaving the CPUs at $600/ea. I think it is pretty fair considering that they don't have warranty, and I accept the risk that they might have some issues (that cannot be seen until more comprehensive testing is done).

And yes, the CPUs are distributed for free by Intel to some system integrators (like Dell, IBM, etc), so they would test them with their hardware prior to the official release. This is part of the QA process, if any problem would be found, Intel would correct them when the retail version is released.
That doesn't mean that the ES-es have "0" value, there is still market for these CPUs, despite the fact that Intel forbids the sale of these CPUs). However, the ES-es should sell for much less than the retail version (due to lack of warranty + possible issues + forbidden sale)
Click to expand...

actually they shouldn't sell at all...period...it's illegal, no...? the subject has come up on here before and it is mentioned in the FS rules, in his extended time here buying and selling he should know this, plus don't they show up with an extension in cpu-z under "specification"...? doesn't "(ES)" show up after the chip specification...? like this...

cpuz.png


kinda hard to play dumb when most everyone here uses cpu-z at some time or another with each cpu they've owned (or at least I have), the seller needs to stop trying to put this on you somehow (blackmail, which it is definitely NOT) and admit that he tried to pull a fast one, he might get them from work by volunteering to "dispose of them" or whatever once their testing is done, knowing that he can get good money and turn 100% profit on the deal because he got them at no cost, not saying that's what happened here, but it's a possibility, also I'm not saying this next part is kosher, because you're not supposed to sell them, but there's definitely a market for them, but OTOH there's a way to sell them also, like letting people know that they're ES and they are taking that risk with the purchase (no warranty, possibly disabled features, etc.), dumping them on an unsuspecting buyer is NOT the way to get away with selling these, not by a long shot...
 
Last edited:
I opened the Paypal claim. I mentioned that I can provide pictures with the actual CPUs, I described Intel's policy regarding Engineering Samples (submitted a link to Intel website as well), and I submitted a link to the sale thread on [H], proving that the seller tried to mislead potential buyers. I hope all goes well from now..
 
MarcusXP said:
That's exactly what I proposed him:
1. Refund $200 from the original amount and I keep everything as-is
or
2. Reverse transaction, send full refund and I ship everything back at his expense (it's not my fault that he fails to mention an important detail like the CPUs being Engineering Samples).

... but he refused to choose any of these options.
Am I unreasonable? Should I start a claim with Paypal? What are my chances to winning the claim? Paypal kind of sux.. they might deny the claim because he indeed shipped "some" CPUs - although not what he originally stated it would be... but I've seen Paypal doing this kind of stupid things before..
Click to expand...

Either of your options sound reasonable to me. I'd say file the claim if you guys can't resolve it personally, which appears unlikely given his response.
 
Anyone dealt with DivineSmack before?
If yes, do you have his Heatware account?
I was stupid enough not to ask for his Heatware. I figured that a user that is 8yrs+ on [H] and Paypal's protection would be enough for me to sleep well at night... but a negative feedback on Heat would be recommended in this case as well.
 
MarcusXP said:
Anyone dealt with DivineSmack before?
If yes, do you have his Heatware account?
I was stupid enough not to ask for his Heatware. I figured that a user that is 8yrs+ on [H] and Paypal's protection would be enough for me to sleep well at night... but a negative feedback on Heat would be recommended in this case as well.
Click to expand...

Search Heatware using his email if you have one.

And .........if you have your claim to paypal in. Giving him the weekend to address this thread isn't unreasonable. I know you have some PMs to him, but you're doing a lot of posting in like a 5 hour period of time here. Not a reasonable amount of time to let him respond to anything......and your heatware evaluation is not going to reflect much of anything if you don't give him a chance to react.
 
MarcusXP said:
Anyone dealt with DivineSmack before?
If yes, do you have his Heatware account?
I was stupid enough not to ask for his Heatware. I figured that a user that is 8yrs+ on [H] and Paypal's protection would be enough for me to sleep well at night... but a negative feedback on Heat would be recommended in this case as well.
Click to expand...

it was beyond stupid dude, insanely stupid, a $1700 transaction and you get no info on him...? wow...just wow, you are a scammers wet dream, also, I guess we now know why he didn't want to separate the cpus and the mobo, that way he would've had to clean the cpus off and "Intel Confidential" would've been clear as day, but I agree, give him some time to make this right, y'all may just come to an equitable agreement, but you definitely have him over a barrel here...
 
Not that is not true. I have 10 years exp hands on exp in pc and I don't know what an ES CPU is until earlier last year.
 
i was unaware of ES CPUs till I had one in my possession, and from what posters told me that generally they are not very different from release, unless they're a v1.0 ES which could have many problems

Also ES's tend to have more options unlocked in a way for testing purposes

If the seller is reading this, I would definitely just take the $100 hit per CPU and get it over with
 
Well I opened the Paypal claim, we will see what happens next.

I've found his heatware account, with 21-0: Godsmack
and posted negative feedback for this transaction.
 
I have had many Es chips and Have one p4 one in my drawer right now, all worked better than their retail counterparts and never had any issues, I found in the past they actually sold higher since they are usually more overclockable due to unlocked multipliers and such.

By the way anyone want one I will Give away for testing purposes of course, I already tried to give back to intel when I could no longer sell the cpu. It is a P4 northwood 478 pin unlocked.:D
 
marcus,
does it clearly state intel es on the cpu?

if so just contact intel and give them buyers info and they will take care of it.
 
gotendbz1 said:
marcus,
does it clearly state intel es on the cpu?

if so just contact intel and give them buyers info and they will take care of it.
Click to expand...

Yes, it clearly says "Intel Confidential" on the chips.
And with black marker it is written by hand "X5650". This is what it struck me from the beginning, once I took the heatsinks out..I could see that hand-written "X5650" even with the thermal paste on.
Then I cleaned-up the thermal paste completely and I could see the text "Intel Confidential" on the chips.
I uploaded the pictures here:
http://s219.photobucket.com/albums/cc287/MarcusXP/X5650/
 
IMO, the only solution is to get a complete refund & return at his expense. Technically they are worthless to you since you cannot legally resell them.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top