Rebuilding old systems, gpu compatibility? Nforce4 (socket939) and x58

Armenius

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... the fuck? I thought I knew most of the whack shit that came out in that era.
You should see the board that facilitates the CPU upgrade.

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Red Falcon

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...You want to use old hardware that requires more power, but have a graphics card that uses less power? Why????????????????????????

Look, I understand the nostalgia. You want the satisfaction of having an older machine to show off. I get it. But just let it go. We all built those old machines. They were good while they were "new". Let them go. You can do what you want to do on a modern machine and have the power requirements you seek. Its ok to have a modern machine. We all believe you are "old school".

I did this years ago, I thought it would be fun. It turned into a nightmare, having to track down drivers, search for compatible components / cables, ect...

You know where that retro build is right now after all that work? Its been sitting in my closet for 2 years.
With retrocomputing, it is the journey that counts more than the destination. :cool:
 

lopoetve

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Blah blah blah, why do people build toys...ect. I get it. If you're an adult and build model airplanes, lego structures or anything that a child does. You are a child.

Do adult things, like building something useful. Something that can be passed down to your kid, if you've taken the time out of your lego building schedule to have one. Something of worth. Not some old piece of junk computer that only makes you happy and will be in the garbage heap when you're dead.
This is overall a bit of a silly endeavor, since there wasn't THAT much special about the S939 era, but whatever - I built an X99 system a month ago that has turned into a NAS, but it was fun to build anyway. It's something to do, it provides some entertainment, it's pretty damned cheap overall (compared to the X299 or TRX40 systems I built recently), and why not? It's something to do. Heck, I suspect you could pull this off for the cost of either of the two CPUs I bought this year.

I did this with older motorola based systems, Sun, IRIX, etc - it's fun to learn something, even if it's old school (who needs a real blacksmith anymore - we ain't using swords for that much, and making horseshoes is boring), and it's something to do in the middle of a global pandemic.

And yes, I build legos from time to time, still play D&D when I feel like it, I don't generally collect "toys" but respect those that do, play video games, watch cheesy sci-fi - also travel the world, drive fast cars, have an awesome career and wife, etc. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
 

Red Falcon

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You want a similar old school board, enter the tyan trinity

https://hothardware.com/reviews/tyans-s1854-trinity-400

Could use either a slot 1 or socket 370 P3. Glad I own this as they are super rare.
Used to have this exact same motherboard back in the late 1990s, and threw it out in the mid 2000s since it was 'too old'... :facepalm:
If only we had known how much fun retrocomputing could be back then, especially when things like this couldn't be given away, and are now $$$$.
 

Red Falcon

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You will probably run into driver issues. They don't make official drivers for newer graphics cards for windows 7 or older.

Stick with somthing to that Era. Like a GTX 9800 or 8800.
That is wholly unnecessary unless the want for retro GPUs is present.
Many GPUs up to only a few generations ago were fully supported in Windows 7, and to a slightly lesser extent in Windows XP; Linux drivers also exist for such systems, depending on the distro.

The main issue would be Legacy booting with a UEFI GPU, but as pointed out earlier, it is possible to boot with one as long as another non-UEFI GPU is used.
Blah blah blah, why do people build toys...ect. I get it. If you're an adult and build model airplanes, lego structures or anything that a child does. You are a child.

Do adult things, like building something useful. Something that can be passed down to your kid, if you've taken the time out of your lego building schedule to have one. Something of worth. Not some old piece of junk computer that only makes you happy and will be in the garbage heap when you're dead.
I get what you are saying, but a lot of this is more than just "playing with toys".
There is a lot of experience to be gained from working with older computer systems, and not just exclusively with IBM-compatible PCs, for that matter.

I have seen legacy/ancient equipment end up saving the day with modern equipment, both in personal and professional scenarios, many many times.
Those who only work with modern/contemporary equipment, software, systems, etc., in those scenarios would have been severely boned with data loss and/or extremely high costs of replacement of said equipment and/or data.

Also, before anyone says, "Data loss?! Backup your stuff!", some data simply cannot be backed up or exported on certain sets of proprietary enterprise and scientific equipment, and legacy equipment/software has exclusively saved the day many, many times, and that is just from what I have personally seen.
It has happened enough now to be more than simply just an outlier of a scenario.

Retrocomputing has quite a few personal benefits outside of just being fun, and I have learned more about computer systems working on PCs, non-PCs, and proprietary equipment from the 1980s through the 2000s than I ever would have with anything from the last decade.
It is important to keep up with modern equipment, especially for new feature sets, functionality, operations, support, etc., especially for modern tasks, but learning anything more than surface-level functions will further require going deep than what modern equipment features can currently afford to us.
 

WilyKit

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With retrocomputing, it is the journey that counts more than the destination. :cool:

True, but unless your retro rig is actually a retro rig with a retro OS running retro APIs and retro games, you get to that destination wondering why you wasted your life building out the utterly useless contraption.
 

Red Falcon

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True, but unless your retro rig is actually a retro rig with a retro OS running retro APIs and retro games, you get to that destination wondering why you wasted your life building out the utterly useless contraption.
Might want to read the post I made right above yours.
Also, who says retro and legacy equipment has to run their contemporary operating systems, firmware, and software, and not something modern for further problem solving and solution engineering?

Depends on the equipment, and if you feel your life has been wasted doing so, then don't do it.
Others find massive fulfillment in doing so, and much of this old equipment is hardly useless - if you truly believe that, you still have much to learn.
 

Red Falcon

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I still have plenty of folks running mainframes. Fuck modernizing some of that - it'll never happen.
Exactly, case in point:

How the 60-Year-Old IRS Computer System Failed on Tax Day (2018)​


I remember when this happened as well, and have had the same thing happen with modern servers and hardware RAID controllers failing while all other hardware stayed up.
At least in my situation it wasn't an entire nation buckling to its knees... but yes, the extreme cost of upgrading could be in the hundreds of billions and even trillions (stretched over years of endless migrations).
 

WilyKit

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Might want to read the post I made right above yours.
Also, who says retro and legacy equipment has to run their contemporary operating systems, firmware, and software, and not something modern for further problem solving and solution engineering?

Depends on the equipment, and if you feel your life has been wasted doing so, then don't do it.
Others find massive fulfillment in doing so, and much of this old equipment is hardly useless - if you truly believe that, you still have much to learn.

Because the point of retro is to run the older hardware that’s only supported by older operating systems so you can play the older games that use those older APIs.

A modern os on old hardware isn’t retro. It’s just old and slow. And older game that will run on it will also run on the computer in your Sig.
 

Red Falcon

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Because the point of retro is to run the older hardware that’s only supported by older operating systems so you can play the older games that use those older APIs.

A modern os on old hardware isn’t retro. It’s just old and slow.
Depends on the game, software, platform, etc.
If all you are focusing on is x86 and games, sure, but there is a whole world beyond that.

For me, retro gaming isn't really important, and what I do with legacy equipment essentially either cannot be done on modern systems, or can only be done with partial functionality and/or support; retrocomputing is more than playing old games, just FYI.
If you think your modern x86-64 PC and peripherals are capable of everything older x86 and non-x86 equipment was capable of, regardless of OS, equipment, software, etc. - even with emulation - you are in for an eye opening experience.

And older game that will run on it will also run on the computer in your Sig.
That's a really broad statement that isn't really true, depending on the game, platform, emulation, and/or if it has been ported.
No, not all older games (assuming you mean x86 PC games) will run on modern x86-64 hardware, let alone non-x86 games.
 
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lopoetve

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Depends on the game, software, platform, etc.
If all you are focusing on is x86 and games, sure, but there is a whole world beyond that.

For me, retro gaming isn't really important, and what I do with legacy equipment essentially either cannot be done on modern systems, or can only be done with partial functionality and/or support; retrocomputing is more than playing old games, just FYI.
If you think your modern x86-64 PC and peripherals are capable of everything older x86 and non-x86 equipment was capable of, regardless of OS, equipment, software, etc. - even with emulation - you are in for an eye opening experience.


That's a really broad statement that isn't really true, depending on the game, platform, emulation, and/or if it has been ported.
No, not all older games (assuming you mean x86 PC games) will run on modern x86-64 hardware, let alone non-x86 games.
Totally agree. But we are talking socket 939; it’s not really all that special. First gen PCIE and the like, not AGP or ISA. But more power to ya
 

Red Falcon

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Totally agree. But we are talking socket 939; it’s not really all that special. First gen PCIE and the like, not AGP or ISA. But more power to ya
Anything past Haswell has the A20 line removed, which kills a lot of backwards compatibility.
Using an older system allows for games/software/OSes to be used natively without emulation or DOSBox.
 

lopoetve

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Anything past Haswell has the A20 line removed, which kills a lot of backwards compatibility.
Using an older system allows for games/software/OSes to be used natively without emulation or DOSBox.
Roll back to something that had PCI at least though; coppermine, Barton, etc. getting some of those os to run on 939 is a pain
 

cyclone3d

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There are people that have Win98SE running on at least 7th gen Core-i stuff.



It isn't that hard to get it running on newer systems... it is just the fact that some stuff won't work because there is no driver support.

On the Intel side of things, the newest chipset with full Win98SE support is the i865G if I remember correctly. I have a system like that running Windows 98SE with a Core 2 Extreme x6800 because it was the CPU I could get to clock the highest on stock CPU voltage and get past the CPU bottleneck of a Geforce FX 5950 Ultra.... which incidentally is at 3.2-3.3Ghz which is magnitudes faster than what was available at the time the FX 5950 Ultra was released.

And to top it off, you can get industrial setups that have AGP/PCI/ISA (with DMA support) on that platform. The setup I put together for testing is running a S478 CPU board with a Pentium 4 Extreme Edition (Gallatin).
I have been unable to procure the ultra rare S775 CPU board for this type of setup. It is not even clear if it supports anything past a Pentium 4 though as the original specs only show it supporting Pentium 4 and Celeron D. Would love to get that CPU board and see if it would run a C2D or even a Pentium D.
 

Red Falcon

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There are people that have Win98SE running on at least 7th gen Core-i stuff.



It isn't that hard to get it running on newer systems... it is just the fact that some stuff won't work because there is no driver support.

On the Intel side of things, the newest chipset with full Win98SE support is the i865G if I remember correctly. I have a system like that running Windows 98SE with a Core 2 Extreme x6800 because it was the CPU I could get to clock the highest on stock CPU voltage and get past the CPU bottleneck of a Geforce FX 5950 Ultra.... which incidentally is at 3.2-3.3Ghz which is magnitudes faster than what was available at the time the FX 5950 Ultra was released.

And to top it off, you can get industrial setups that have AGP/PCI/ISA (with DMA support) on that platform. The setup I put together for testing is running a S478 CPU board with a Pentium 4 Extreme Edition (Gallatin).
I have been unable to procure the ultra rare S775 CPU board for this type of setup. It is not even clear if it supports anything past a Pentium 4 though as the original specs only show it supporting Pentium 4 and Celeron D. Would love to get that CPU board and see if it would run a C2D or even a Pentium D.
Just remember, that is Windows, and there are a whole slew of other operating systems, and ISAs, outside of Windows and x86.
There is a whole world of computing outside of WIntel. ;)
 

lopoetve

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Just remember, that is Windows, and there are a whole slew of other operating systems, and ISAs, outside of Windows and x86.
There is a whole world of computing outside of WIntel. ;)
Oh this world I’ve played in. Hell, I had a Sparcbook!!!
 

Red Falcon

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Oh this world I’ve played in. Hell, I had a Sparcbook!!!
Nice, I've never had the pleasure of doing so, so I'm a bit jealous.
What did you use it for?

I used to use SPARCstations occasionally in college - definitely did not appreciate them in that era (when Athlon 64 and Pentium D's were all the rage).
Playing DOOM on this SPARCstation 4 was a lot of fun, but the price of 168-pin ECC FPM RAM, though... 🪦

LCJhdWQiOlsidXJuOnNlcnZpY2U6ZmlsZS5kb3dubG9hZCJdfQ.png

LCJhdWQiOlsidXJuOnNlcnZpY2U6ZmlsZS5kb3dubG9hZCJdfQ.png
 

WilyKit

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Depends on the game, software, platform, etc.
If all you are focusing on is x86 and games, sure, but there is a whole world beyond that.

For me, retro gaming isn't really important, and what I do with legacy equipment essentially either cannot be done on modern systems, or can only be done with partial functionality and/or support; retrocomputing is more than playing old games, just FYI.
If you think your modern x86-64 PC and peripherals are capable of everything older x86 and non-x86 equipment was capable of, regardless of OS, equipment, software, etc. - even with emulation - you are in for an eye opening experience.


That's a really broad statement that isn't really true, depending on the game, platform, emulation, and/or if it has been ported.
No, not all older games (assuming you mean x86 PC games) will run on modern x86-64 hardware, let alone non-x86 games.

If the statement is that general, then please let me know of a handful of relatively popular games at the time that will work on Windows 10 and Socket 939 (which is also x86-64) but not run on Windows 10 and something released within the last 10 years.... Lets say Sandy Bridge and newer.
 

SamuelL421

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So, title says, im pulling my 939 system out of the closet and trying to find a way to make it work.
I've also gotten. My hands on a MSI x58m.

I'd love to max out the 939 system and run older games on it. But I'm pretty sure there's a point where new GPUs aren't comaptible. I just don't know where the cut off is.

Same for x58.. I was considering grabbing a 1650 low profile for that setup if things work out.
X58 runs pretty much anything in my experience. I've used PCIe 1.0 cards through RTX cards with mine, the only time in throws a fit is when I tried old dual GPU cards - maybe due to the PLX chip not liking bios settings or my mess of PCIe cards plugged into that system. In any case, X58 is still very usable despite it's age.

I have a boxed one of those upgrade board and a S754 and a S939 board that takes that upgrade card.
If you ever feel the need to get rid of it let me know, I was hunting one of these in the past and could find the motherboards but not the upgrade board.

Roll back to something that had PCI at least though; coppermine, Barton, etc. getting some of those os to run on 939 is a pain
I'd second that, Socket A is my go-to for retro PCs they work great for everything in the PCI / AGP eras.
 

Wat

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Yeah, what i don't understand is the notion of
"I want to build a retro pc but I want to max it out"
What the hell is the point of maxing it out? Maybe you should just go to the club or something.

-drunken billy friday
 

Agent_N

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View attachment 341292

I simply can't understand why anyone would do this. If we are talking about i486 and early Pentium hardware, then whatever. You want to play your old 3DFX Glide games, sure. But, socket 939 is just old. X58, is just old. I see no benefit to running something like that over a more modern system. Especially when you can make your older games work on newer hardware. We aren't talking about the type of experiences you got on CRT monitors and related systems. We are talking about something that still utilizes PCI-Express and supports relatively modern features.
He wants to scratch his tinkering itch, so why not?!
 

gpitpitan

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Current "maxed out" X58 owner here. To answer your question, the NVIDIA gpus seem to have better compatibility on the platform versus AMD. When I was sourcing parts to "refresh" my x58 system to extend its life just a bit longer I bought a 5700xt which wouldnt boot into windows. Returned that, ate the restocking fee and picked up a 1080TI off ebay with an EK waterblock (thankfully before the insanity of the current crypto boom / chip shortage) and it worked marvelously. Its probably the highest tier GPU I would get for a system I was looking to use/game on. There are folks out there that have run RTX 3080's on X58 with pretty interesting results at 4k and 1440p.

Kinda surprised at some of the negative responses you've had here about what you're trying to do (with one sounding like an utterly joyless a-hole). Im glad your finding a use for some older hardware and getting something out of it, whether its the simple pleasure of building/rebuilding a rig or getting reacquainted with an old system and trying to see how far you can take it. Also, its one less piece of e-waste in the system that still has some usefulness.
 

phantommaggot

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Yeah, what i don't understand is the notion of
"I want to build a retro pc but I want to max it out"
What the hell is the point of maxing it out? Maybe you should just go to the club or something.

-drunken billy friday
Go to the club? lol... sounds SO exciting... Maybe back when the 'clubs' had live music and a community of people that didn't spend the entire night looking at their phones. Now days, around here anyways, it's just pathetic drunks that don't know how to communicate with each other.

Maxing out a 939 system is 4gb ram and a modern SSD.
Note, I want to 'max' it without needing power to the GPU.. unless there are tech crossover issues. Where I could get a 7950, 8800, 9800 ETC for cheap on ebay... those would eat power while a low profile 750ti, which would run circles around the old cards, would not.

As far as the x58 system, I don't expect it to be the BEST!... but 6 sticks of tracer, a modern cooler, and a few other tweaks. a 'modern' card would be nice in that system if the prices ever come down, but until then, SSDD...

I also said I want to wall mount these systems, or shelf them, either way, they'll be model kits to me the way gundams and airplanes are to others...



There are people that have Win98SE running on at least 7th gen Core-i stuff.
(Killed video links)



It isn't that hard to get it running on newer systems... it is just the fact that some stuff won't work because there is no driver support.

On the Intel side of things, the newest chipset with full Win98SE support is the i865G if I remember correctly. I have a system like that running Windows 98SE with a Core 2 Extreme x6800 because it was the CPU I could get to clock the highest on stock CPU voltage and get past the CPU bottleneck of a Geforce FX 5950 Ultra.... which incidentally is at 3.2-3.3Ghz which is magnitudes faster than what was available at the time the FX 5950 Ultra was released.

And to top it off, you can get industrial setups that have AGP/PCI/ISA (with DMA support) on that platform. The setup I put together for testing is running a S478 CPU board with a Pentium 4 Extreme Edition (Gallatin).
I have been unable to procure the ultra rare S775 CPU board for this type of setup. It is not even clear if it supports anything past a Pentium 4 though as the original specs only show it supporting Pentium 4 and Celeron D. Would love to get that CPU board and see if it would run a C2D or even a Pentium D.
Now, this is fun information here... maybe I'll go hunting later as well!


Anything past Haswell has the A20 line removed, which kills a lot of backwards compatibility.
Using an older system allows for games/software/OSes to be used natively without emulation or DOSBox.
Does that count for Devils Canyon too? Currently sitting on a 4790k lol.
 

Zepher

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I'm like 99% sure I've used my RTX 3090 on my x58 boards with no issues. You could also pick up a GTX 285 for like 20 dollars if you don't need DX11 support.
I am using my old GTX285 in my Retro XP machine I slapped together a couple of years ago.
IMG_3971.JPG


The card still has a warranty too, I checked it a couple of weeks ago when I was doing my RMA on my 3080.
EVGA-GTX-285-Warranty.jpg


And I stuck this card in there too,
IMG_2408.JPG
 

Agent_N

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I have retro XFX 9800GT with the Zaman style flower cooler (has a passive cooler on it now), an ASUS GTX 460 1GB and I think an Abit NF7 with a Barton mobile core (multiplier unlocked) CPU if someone wants any of them for retro builds.
 

crazycrave

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My oldest board is a 775 socket with e8400 wolf dale. cpu,, but my eVge 3way SLI X58 With Xeon X5660 allows me to run crossfire RX580/RX570 which is RX5700 performance
 

III_Slyflyer_III

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FWIW; I have a GTX 1080 in an LGA775 Q9450 system and my old RTX 2080Ti in a LGA775 Q6600 G0 system. Both systems use PCIe 1.1 (I think the Q6000 PC is 1.0 even) and work just fine for the media only PC's that they are... lol.
 
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