RE: Death to WEP from front page

T

Tanis143

Gawd
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Aug 18, 2001
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Was going to bug Steve about this, but thought it would be better to post it here:

This is in response to the Death to WEP thats posted on HardOCP's news page.

One point that news article fails to point out is that wireless, unless you use the most up to date uber secure type, is vulnerable. As a cable install tech who does home networking I always inform the customers that even with WEP, SSID turned off, and mac filtering, their wireless is still vulnerable. Doing those three things just makes it so script kiddies and those looking to suck someone else's bandwidth do not have an easy target. Its not about eliminating the threat, its about lowering your chance of getting hacked. Its basically like locking your bike up downtown. If you dont use a lock, your just asking to get your bike stolen. If you use a decent bike lock, most criminals will go on to an easier target unless you have a bike they really really want. Same goes for your wireless network. On one of my machines I have an internal wireless nic with an extended antenna, and when I do a search I find 9 different wireless networks. Of which only 2 (mine and one other) are secured. And no, I do not live in an apartment, I live in a house in a middle class neighborhood. God forbid if I did live in an apartment, I would probably find over 15 wireless networks I could jack into and leach bandwidth off of.

The point is thus: If your on the internet through a broadband connection, you're vulnerable. No matter what spyware/antivirus/firewall you run, if someone wants in, they'll get in. The only thing you can do is make it as secure as possible to lower your chances of getting hacked. But, do you want to go to such lengths that certian things are no longer available? Going to WPA would mean changing out any and all wifi adapters you have and possibly getting new ones for laptops that have built in wireless and do not support the WPA security. If your that worried, dump the wireless and go hardwired.
 
Everything you say is spot on. I just wanted to comment that turning of the SSID and spending the time to do MAC filtering is pretty much time wasted. The SSID can be found, in seconds, using a wireless sniffer. Turning it off only makes connecting wireless devices to the network more difficult, it does absolutely nothing to enhance security. Wireless MAC filtering suffers the same flaw, one sniffer and it is possible to change the wireless MAC to one allowed by the system and gain access.

Personally I don't bother with turning off the SSID or MAC filtering. I'm lucky enough to have a Cisco 1130AP on which I'm doing WPA2 + AES encryption. For my Nintendo DS I created a second SSID that is using WEP (that's all the Nintendo DS supports). Each SSID pumps into its own VLAN which is blocked from accessing any of the other devices on my network, only outside access is allowed. This protects my main computers, my vonage adapter, and my work VPN router from any troublesome activities. The AP also logs all associations, attempted and successful so I have that information handy should it be required.

I think most consumer grade wireless devices now, at least the Linksys devices, make is VERY easy to setup the wireless security.
 
Tanis143 said:
Going to WPA would mean changing out any and all wifi adapters you have and possibly getting new ones for laptops that have built in wireless and do not support the WPA security.
Click to expand...

What the hell are you talking about?

A) Software/Firmware updates...
B) WPA has been standard for some time, and WPA2 is an relatively easy software update for most chipsets.
wiki for WPA:
Certifications for implementations of WPA started in April 2003 and became mandatory in November 2003. The full 802.11i was ratified in June 2004.

Seriously, I'm all for paranoid security measures... but we could do with slightly less FUD.
 
that coment about DS brings up a goodpoint
If it only was WEP support (realy dumb) what do you think most ppl are going to have on if any thing on your AP Nintendo should do some thing about that
 
Malk-a-mite said:
What the hell are you talking about?

A) Software/Firmware updates...
B) WPA has been standard for some time, and WPA2 is an relatively easy software update for most chipsets.
wiki for WPA:
Certifications for implementations of WPA started in April 2003 and became mandatory in November 2003. The full 802.11i was ratified in June 2004.

Seriously, I'm all for paranoid security measures... but we could do with slightly less FUD.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry I didn't clarify. Working in my job I see a lot of older laptops and wireless adapters, ones that people have had for a while that do not have WPA available to them. Even my own router, a Linksys BEF11S4 does not have WPA compatability. I even checked the updated firmware available and no WPA. Sure, I could go out and purchase a new router, but I would have to replace my two wireless adapters as well, both bought about the same time as my router, which I believe was in 02. So if you purchased your wireless gear post 03, then yes, you probably have WPA enabled security available to you, but do not assume everyone has updated equipment. Plus, people who purchase the home networking package through my company also like to hook up game adapters that also do not have WPA. So if I setup WPA on their newer routers that they recieved through the home network package, then those devices wont work, so we always setup the home network with WEP instead. The point also is thus: WEP or WPA, your network is still not foolproof. WPA just makes it a little harder to get into vs WEP. Both are just deterants to make those that want a free net connection to look elsewere. And since thats the case, unless your really really paranoid, why not use the one thats more compatible?

As to the SSID and MAC filtering, I do not do them either, but when I setup a wireless network for a customer, I'm required to do both unless the customer is running an XP machine without SP2 (SP1 has a major issue with SSID turned off). Either way, its the same.
 
Stang Man said:
turning off ssid and mac filtering is useless, I agree
Click to expand...
Useless against anyone with the proper software.
It does however prevent neighbors from accidentally connecting to your network or the kid next door from seeing your network and googling the tools required.
 
Thanks for the follow up - sorry myself for sounding extra cranky.

Tanis143 said:
The point also is thus: WEP or WPA, your network is still not foolproof. WPA just makes it a little harder to get into vs WEP. Both are just deterants to make those that want a free net connection to look elsewere. And since thats the case, unless your really really paranoid, why not use the one thats more compatible?
Click to expand...

WPA2 is currently secure (things change, new methods are discovered).
WEP is structurely flawed.

It's kinda like saying that because if someone really wanted to steal your bike even if you have a lock on it why not use a piece of string since it's easier to work with.

Also - what version of the linksys do you have? v4 has WPA support.
http://www.linksys.com/servlet/Sate...goBlobs&blobwhere=1130824460891&ssbinary=true
"1.50 Oct 23, 2003 1. Added Wi-Fi WPA support"

Your overall arguement seems to be more for hard wiring your game devices that only support WEP, than for using a insecure encryption protocol.
 
I'm one of those guys that realizes nothing is ever secure.

Put forth the steps to make it take more effort than its worth, but if people make it, people can crack it.
 
Well, if I came across any of my friends' or relatives networks that were still running WEP, I'd

(a) criticise whoever set it up, especially if they were paid to do so and were supposed to be professionals

(b) locate firmware upgrades if necessary

(c) rip out any equipment that doesn't support WEP and replace it with hardwire or something that supports WPA.

WEP is trivially broken, and I've seen it done to someone I know -- despite WEP-128 and SSID hiding. This was a year or so ago, it's probably easier to break now.

Here's a link to the referenced blog.

http://blogs.msdn.com/alexholy/archive/2006/08/07/690912.aspx

Anyone can break into your house or car if they really wanted to. This is not a valid argument in the least for not locking your house or car, especially if you're going to go around broadcasting that your house or car is not locked, which is what's done implicitly with wireless.

In my personal opinion, it's irresponsible and even professionally negligent to deploy WEP instead of WPA at this time.

Edit: However, if the risks are explained to the client clearly, and they choose to accept the risk and whatever perceived benefits with WEP, then I have no issues with this.
 
Ok, you all are assuming way way too much. Think of the customers that I see day in and day out. They know nothing of wireless security, much less the different protocols. They just want it to work with what they have and/or stuff they purchase. WEP is mainly to keep their wireless from being completely open, thats all. Its the easiest for a novice to purchase/configure for since everything out there has WEP support. Yes, for those that know how to use other methods WPA or other forms of encryption is easy to use.

The arguement that I was going for is that regardless of what wireless encryption you use, your data is not completely secure. If you are going to be running wireless at your job, yeah go for the tightest security you can get. For home use, its pretty much moot. If you feel you need the tightest wireless protection, go for it. However, you'll still see people using WEP even though its not secure, not as a protection, but as a deterant. Right now if someone sat outside my house there are 4-7 other networks that are wide open. Unless they know who I am and know that I have something they want, they will ignore my network and go after one of the unsecured. Is that good for me? In a way. Is it bad all around, yes. Does it change things that I can not tell these people to secure their networks? Absolutely.
 
WPA is no more difficult than WEP to set up. The only potential issue is the lack of firmware/driver support with older hardware, which doesn't even come up with most new installations. The discussion with those out of the know is pretty simple: (1) Do you want something that's demonstrably very easy to hack, or something that's arguably secure for the time being? (2) If your HW doesn't support it, are you willing to pay for an upgrade? You don't have to be a security expert to have an opinion on these issues for yourself.

In my particular neighbourhood, almost every signal is secured. Still some WEP as well, but the landscape is changing.
 
The problem I run into is public AP's. Everyone can't support WPA, even if you want them to, so you have to fault to the lowest common denominator.

My hotel installs are open, businesses are WEP, and a few WPA.

You have to work within the system, and quite often today, WEP is the best you can get without the 1am phone call.

That said, I still stand by what I said above, anything is crackable, depends on their determination.
 
So far evey wireless network I maintain can detect 2-3 nearby completely open wireless networks. So by turning on any kind of security I just reduced the chance of a clients network being hacked. The other 2-3 open ones are going to get hacked first. The open networks are potential clients also :).
 
0ldman said:
The problem I run into is public AP's. Everyone can't support WPA, even if you want them to, so you have to fault to the lowest common denominator.

My hotel installs are open, businesses are WEP, and a few WPA.

You have to work within the system, and quite often today, WEP is the best you can get without the 1am phone call.

That said, I still stand by what I said above, anything is crackable, depends on their determination.
Click to expand...

try cracking WPA2 + RADIUS useins AES and key 63 chara long ascii key like this
Code: 
/Yk5X69ox;WOk>|M:o{${@D<F`N1".Z:h1Bh{9`Q8f"16,jYG]@Y>xnzr}nwo'f
good luck

btw if any one is setting up WPA on there network
http://www.kurtm.net/wpa-pskgen/
you can go here an gen a key like that
 
I didn't say I could crack it, but I'm betting within the next couple of years WPA and WPA2 will have a crack.

The faster the CPU's get, the easier it will be to crack encryption, the better the encryption gets in response.

Remember DVDs were uncrackable, ha... Blue Ray and HDDVD are uncrackable. Just give it some time.
 
0ldman said:
I didn't say I could crack it, but I'm betting within the next couple of years WPA and WPA2 will have a crack.
Click to expand...

According to the site posted above your post,

"Unfortunately, a clever hacker can trick your wireless basestation into revealing the initial handshake between your basestation and wireless clients, and then run a brute-force/dictionary attack on the handshake to recover the pre-shared key. Even worse, the attack can be done offline at a high rate of speed."

This was in the paragraph talking about WPA. It pretty much concludes that you must use strong keys.

And look at this other site from a google search:

http://www.informit.com/articles/article.asp?p=369221&rl=1

"A second flaw exists in the method with which WPA initializes its encryption scheme. Consequently, it's actually easier to crack WPA than it is to crack WEP. This flaw is the subject of this article."
 
0ldman said:
I didn't say I could crack it, but I'm betting within the next couple of years WPA and WPA2 will have a crack.
Click to expand...

This is not unreasonable. Now, what would be the reasonable response at that time? Obviously to design, implement, and deploy newer algorithms that didn't have whatever weaknesses were identified in the WPA algorithms/implementations to date. And this is exactly what is being suggested at this time with the very well-known and trivial WEP cracks. The fact that WEP has been broken necessitates an upgrade to WPA unless you're willing to take the risks or are willfully or otherwise ignorant.

Guessing that the new algorithm might be broken is far from knowing that an existing algorithm is broken, and the guess in no way justifies the usage of a known broken algorithm.
 
WPA2 + RADIUS on AES is pretty much bulletproof guys IF you use good keys
and haveing a RADIUS server even if you get past the WPA is going to keep them off the network
 
DragonNOA1 said:
http://www.informit.com/articles/article.asp?p=369221&rl=1

"A second flaw exists in the method with which WPA initializes its encryption scheme. Consequently, it's actually easier to crack WPA than it is to crack WEP. This flaw is the subject of this article."
Click to expand...

This is the author's follow-up to that sensational sound-bite:


Clarification on WPA-PSK Flaw

The quote from this article…

“A second flaw exists in the method with which WPA initializes its encryption scheme. Consequently, it's actually easier to crack WPA than it is to crack WEP. This flaw is the subject of this article.”

…is not quite clear. There are two sides to this. First, this attack would not be possible if stronger passwords were used. However, this attack IS made easier as a result of how the WPA-PSK (TKIP) protocol is implemented. The second part goes into much more detail on how and why this fails.

Also, WEP is seriously flawed and almost always crackable. WPA-PSK is slightly flawed, and can only be cracked if weak passwords (<20 characters according to 802.11i Standard) are used. However, cracking WEP requires at least an hour of active sniffing in the best of cases. WPA-PSK only requires a few seconds of sniffing. This is why I state WPA is easier to crack. This should state, WPA-PSK CAN be easier to crack that WEP.

Thanks for the feedback!.
Click to expand...

http://www.informit.com/discussion/...922&rl=1#bdaf2d67-3e40-4647-becb-5219130c3922

And at this time, known cracks of WEP take only seconds, which renders his argument about being WPA being easier to crack invalid.

It's trivially easy to use a long random key; using one is almost common sense, and anyone who can use computers can be taught how to do it for additional devices beyond the original installation should they ever be needed.
 
Madwand said:
This is the author's follow-up to that sensational sound-bite:
Click to expand...

I was mainly pointing out that it could be broken to a previous poster who thought it couldn't, not making a stink over it being broken faster than WEP.
 
DragonNOA1 said:
I was mainly pointing out that it could be broken to a previous poster who thought it couldn't, not making a stink over it being broken faster than WEP.
Click to expand...

That's cool. But some people read it the wrong way, and I thought I'd add the clarification.
 
i wasnt just talking about JUST WPA yes WPA is got issues WPA2 is much better throw in AES and a RADIUS server and on one is getting in if you use a random 63 chara long key
 
WPA2 had better be better, otherwise what reason does it have to exist? Of course, if you're dealing with all new equipment, and WPA2 is an option for you, then you should go for it.

However, WPA is also arguably just fine for now (which cannot be said for WEP at all), and I'm not quite ready to throw out old gear which doesn't support WPA2. Once new hacks are published, sure. For now, I think getting off WEP and using long randomized keys, and in all cases upgrading your wireless drivers where needed for security fixes <ahem> is sufficient.

And BTW, for areas where you're really really concerned about security, wireless just shouldn't be used. Using decent wireless security is just the minimum requirement.
 
Madwand said:
I'm not quite ready to throw out old gear which doesn't support WPA2.
Click to expand...

I actually use the older gear that isn't upgradeable in any way to run the open/unsecured network at my place.
 
The whole 'WEP is insecure' hysteria is down-right laughable. Breaking WEP in seconds? The 'easily hackable WEP'? Your wired connection is just as vulnerable as WEP. The funny part? I'm sure 98% of people on this site haven't a clue how to break a WEP key, don't even understand the design problem with WEP, or let alone would even know how to discretely break and sniff a wired connection. Spout all the figures you want, throw up all the articles you want, curse and call me a 'troll' all you want, most people here aren't skilled enough to do it.

I leave it at that. Haven't heard a peep out of my customers since installing their basic WEP wireless network. No speed problems, no nothing.
 
Another "I haven't had any break-ins that I've noticed so I'm just fine", and "you can't protect against everything, so just don't bother" straw man. Yawn.

I wouldn't be a customer for such a service provider, nor recommend them. You'd get laughed out of business if you tried to do this for real in a large organization. You'd get laughed and sued out of business if you tried to sell plastic locks for doors saying "here's a plastic lock, it's cheap, and you know, if they really wanted to get in, they could, so why spend more, mine's cheaper", but it's amazing what you can get away with in computers esp. for uninformed customers.
 
shade91 said:
The whole 'WEP is insecure' hysteria is down-right laughable. Breaking WEP in seconds? The 'easily hackable WEP'? Your wired connection is just as vulnerable as WEP. The funny part? I'm sure 98% of people on this site haven't a clue how to break a WEP key, don't even understand the design problem with WEP, or let alone would even know how to discretely break and sniff a wired connection. Spout all the figures you want, throw up all the articles you want, curse and call me a 'troll' all you want, most people here aren't skilled enough to do it.

I leave it at that. Haven't heard a peep out of my customers since installing their basic WEP wireless network. No speed problems, no nothing.
Click to expand...


some one on another forum said
Its not what shows up in your logs you need to worry about its what DOESNT show up that should worry you
Click to expand...
 
shade91 said:
Your wired connection is just as vulnerable as WEP.
Click to expand...

Amusing... there hasn't been a troll on here in a long time. Actually you are right, let's assume you are not a troll. Do we assume then you are just painfully uninformed? Or deliberately clueless?

And to the not skilled enough?
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=cracking+wep&btnG=Google+Search

How ever would they be able to figure it out... it boogles the mind.
 
I'm just gonna pop back in here so I don't get bundled in the "security don't work so why bother" group.

Most small to medium businesses do not have security on their wired network, if you can gain access in any way, you can work on getting into whatever they have. Someone has a weak password, vulnerable machine.

Its pretty easy to walk into a business, tell them you're the computer guy or whatever, and have total access. Half the time I doubt they'd even remember you were there. At least the wireless is encrypted, basic layer 1/layer 2 security.
 
lol, simple security solution for home networking, plug the wireless router when used, then unplug router when not in use. :p
 
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