question: ips panel with 120hz refresh rate and 1920x1200 or higher resolution?

A

AndreRio

[H]ard|Gawd
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Nov 23, 2011
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is there such thing as a monitor with an ips panel and 120hz rr, with a resolution of 1920x1200?
 
Uh... *looks at monitor* I have a 120hz capable, IPS monitor running at 2560x1440.

Yamasaki catleap, "2B" versions are basically the only thing in the world that we know of which are consumer available, 120hz capable, IPS and >1920x1200.

www.120hz.net
 
I responded about this type of thing in several recent threads, so I thought I'd post some of it here again. If you do a search on 120hz you will find several of the most recent threads with a lot of people's input on the subject.

Monitors make me sad... Gaming on 120hz or IPS panel?


85 and especially 96 - 100hz on a graphics professional fw900 crt doesn't flicker, and doesn't blur.

An lcd doesn't show a new different dynamic image every 60 or 120 in reality because the pixels can't transition that fast. Instead it smears between the two frames until the image sent is more static again.
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120hz low response time lcd's still blur, but appreciably less than a 60hz.. and especially vs a 10ms+ response time ips which smears badly on FoV movement.
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You will still get benefit from a low response time 120hz at lower fps, it will just repeat the same frame more than once. That will still look smoother. 60fps on 120hz ~> same frame every 2hz of screen updates more or less... 40fps ~> same frame every 3hz. Of course it looks better and is more recent action data per fraction of a second (hz = cycles per second) if you maintain 120fps+. The 120hz tn's also incorporate a high/very high overdrive setting/tech which makes scenes snap back to solid(during a smeared FoV arc) faster ~ a lot sooner in my experience.
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The hz isn't the whole picture. A 100hz korean 2560x1440 ips will likely smear badly because the response time is too slow and they probably lack the overdrive tech as well. You can send as many screen updates per second (hz) you want but if your pixels can't change that fast its just going to smear on FoV movement regardless. lcd pixels are a "watery", smeary mess on motion.
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The ways I've seen people "workaround" , "attempt to ignore" , or pretend to be oblivious to it are flick-FoV movement from A-to-B in an attempt to "blink" past the FoV arc motion that smears every time, otherwise they just try to ignore and not pay attention during the FoV movement, trying not to register vision during it at all... or you let your locked on eye focus strain at the textures and texture-depth via bump mapping that smear out during each FoV movement, since your eyes always try to focus away blur (I know mine do). Its most annoying on the highest detail extreme textured games.
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If you've seen any of vega's tests of skyrim spinning on an fw900 with even 120hz TN lcd's on the sides, you would see the zero blur of the professional crt and the smear/blur of the lcds. I still think 120hz TN are a very welcome and appreciable reduction in smearing and are the only ones I would game on outside of the fw900 personally. FW900 professionally calibrated A+ condition is like $1000 though , not even with a clear shipping policy or heavy shipping price included.. a refurb is around $350 shipped but you roll the dice on those (I got lucky).

I'd again recommend a 120hz 1080p TN for gaming (or a refurb fw900 crt if you can manage it) , and one of those korean 2560x1440 ips alongside it for desktop real-esate, apps, high ppi and gorgeous imagery. If you had to choose one or the other and game regularly I would go with the 120hz tn --- though the korean 108.8ppi ips deal is hot and might not be around forever, so might be worth suffering the smear on games and wait until the 120hz tn's come down in price/have a sale and you have recovered from the $400 korean ips purchase.

elvn said:
CRT draws very differently. Personally I prefer 85hz, and better yet 96hz - 100hz on a fw900 crt. Due to the way a crt redraws, crt's exhibit no blur/smear on fast motion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refresh_rate


In the case of modern, low response time + overdrive 120hz*input* LCD computer monitors - the response time compensation ~ overdrive combined with the screen update rate to the pixels (not the fps) comes into play from what I understand. According to this article, at 8.3ms per screen update (120 screen updates/second ~ 120hz) on high/very high overdrive, the pixels "relax" much faster than at longer screen updates of 60hz at 16.6 ~ 16.7 ms each. These updates are sent regardless of your frame rate, resulting in some duplication at lower frame rates, but the overdrive at 8.3ms per screen update should still reduce the smearing.
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If this review is correct, it might give some insight. It also has some nice diagrams and further details on the page linked beyond what I pasted below, and on the 60hz testing on the page that comes before it.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/monitors/display/samsung-sm2233rz_10.html#sect0

What about 120Hz then? Subjectively, RTC artifacts disappeared when I changed the refresh rate, but why?

The response time does not change much. The average is 3.3 milliseconds (GtG), which is only 0.1 less than at 60Hz. This difference may be just due to measurement inaccuracies.

The RTC error in percent is somewhat lower: an average of 7.3% and a maximum of 40%. This is better than at 60Hz (9.6% average) but not much different.

The RTC error relaxation time is the answer. The diagram is made to the same scale as for the 60Hz refresh rate so that you could easily see the difference. The average relaxation time was 15.2 milliseconds but now is only 6.6 milliseconds. It means that the RTC errors are not just lower but also vanish from the screen faster!

I want to illustrate this with a series of pictures showing the movement of a black square along a gray background at 60Hz and 120Hz refresh rates. The square is moving from left to right and its movement is captured each 8.3 milliseconds – the picture update period at a refresh rate of 120Hz.
Click to expand...

The gain of nearing 120fps+ average or going higher (to maintain the fps vs scene complexity dips) in reaction based gaming would be that you would be see more "recent" or "current" action every 8.3ms - always providing a new unique frame per screen update of 120hz, as opposed to every 16.6ms. Some games tear worse than others though and some people are proponents of keeping their frame rate below the refresh rate of the monitor in an attempt to avoid tearing.

* note that the review I quoted is not the 750D but relates to 120hz input + high overdrive technology. It is also comparing vs 60hz setting on the same low response time TN monitor with overdrive (RTC - response time compensation). A 60hz ips would have a much worse response time and smear the whole scene badly on FoV movement in games.
Click to expand...
 
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You mean I should not have given away my 34 inch 16 x 9 multiple HDMI in 1080i 160 pound 2004 (I think – last year Toshiba fabricated its own CRTs) Toshiba CRT? It was in my bedroom 5 feet off the ground on a corner mount desk/furniture combo. The only thing, if I watched it and turned it off when I went to bed, it creaked and popped a little bit as it cooled down. Of course, I thought it was the professional mount about to collapse.

Anyway, back to the subject at hand, is this 120 Hz you are talking about the same parameter as my 600 Hz "subfield drive feature" on my 50 inch THX certified plasma LG? (I know not to be overly impressed by its THX certification.)
 
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Absolutely not, TV Hz ratings are a meaningless marketing scam. They indicate the number of interpolated frames the TV can output per second which is irrelevant. No TV on the market will accept single >60 Hz.


As for your OP: 1200p 120Hz non-TN is the ultimate LCD monitor. It does not, and will probably never, exist.
 
elvn said:
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Thank you for that informative post. I always wondered why even my 120Hz TNs had that "smear" effect going on when lots of movement is taking place in my screen... it does appear noticeably worse when my FPS is sub-40 but that's obvious. But at least at 120+FPS, the screen is gravy. :cool:
 
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how bout OVERLORD tempest? My monitor arrived today with USPS, i am very happy with it.

It uses A or A-panels (apple cinema displays from LG) and turns them into 27 inch 2560x1440 monitors with 60 hz or an overclockable 120hz model.

If you want a screen thats years ahead of its time, i'd get that. Its not even 500 Dollar cost.
And it takes nice benefit of your 680 card.. although you might even need TWO in order to run all games at 120 FPS.

overlord had pixel perfect option in webshop, but until panels get available more they removed it. All in all it is a 50% chance you get pixel perfect anyways, and even if you get few dead pixels.. You can only actually see them if you use special program. Bright pixels aren't on these things.

check www.overlordcomputer.com if you are interested. This company is brand new, and is competitor of yamakasi catleap that is sold by www.120hz.net

Granted, you are a pioneer if you buy one.. There are only 1000-2000 27 inch 2560x1440@120hz monitors around since these two companies started selling them half a year ago. Don't expect 3 years warranty and availability at all US shops. The catleaps actually get shipped directly from Korea.

I'm gaming at 27 inch 2560x1440@120hz and 120 fps now in Battlefield 3. My jaw dropped.. Can't describe the difference with 1080p TN panels that can only do 60 hertz. I even retired my fw900 CRT for gaming now, and THAT says something (well maybe i will still use it after all later on), since no flat panel has beaten my fw900 performance in games YET in all these years..

Take this advice into consideration... It might be worth taking the risk to get one of these babies. There is NO 2560x1440 27 inch monitor around that can be OC'd to 120hertz, apart from overlord tempest OC model and yamakasi catleap 2B OC. check the links if you want to know more.
 
Korean model yamasaki monitors can go above 60hz but even then not all of them are created equal and I think i heard some reports of people claiming that even though the board could deliver 120hz signals to the lcd the lcd could not physically change colors fast enough for it to make a real difference.
 
it depends on the model. 120hz on these things needs a model with an overclockable power brick unit that can handle 120hz. both yamakasi and overlord tempest got a model for that.

The ones on ebay are usually 60 hertz.

All rumours and hearsay, really... a lot of misconceptions float around on these brands. 120hz at 27 inch 2560x1440? do your homework and order the right model...
 
They still have a much higher response time than a 120hz TN, and likely lack the agressiveRTC(response time compensation) settings and resultant RTC error reduction. RTC errors disappear many times faster with very low response time + 120HZ. That is the tradeoff/loss on a 120hz+ korean ips. However like a 120hz TN, the korean ips still have smoother motion tracking at high fps at 120hz, and unlike the TNs have 2560x1440 rez at 108.8 ppi, and better + more uniform color reproduction.
 
Anticommon said:
Korean model yamasaki monitors can go above 60hz but even then not all of them are created equal and I think i heard some reports of people claiming that even though the board could deliver 120hz signals to the lcd the lcd could not physically change colors fast enough for it to make a real difference.
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It still does makes a massive difference. Just not as much motion blur reduction as a TN 120Hz panel.

What would be ultimate for me, is an impulse-driven 3D-compatible LCD display with less motion blur than CRT. The great news is that it's possible!
-- The LCD panel technology is already here (finally, thanks to 3D 120Hz, fast refresh and well-tweaked response-time-acceleration technologies: pixel persistence effects are now well-erased quickly, as a pre-requsite for shutter-glasses alternate-frame operation. Newer 3D 120/144Hz LCD monitors like VG278H have almost no visible pixel persistence bleed between frames now).
-- However, the backlight technology isn't economically here yet. Absolute minimum 150 watts per square feet of LED is needed! But it is possible as a user mod if you spend ~$300-$500 of LED's. You need strobes that are as bright, or brighter, than CRT phosphor during its brief illumination -- e.g. flash the backlight very quickly at 0.5 millisecond and super-brightly through a fully-refreshed frame, for the crystal-sharp freeze-frame effect -- one strobe per refresh -- for the CRT flicker & motion blur elimination. I'm currently working on this monitor hack -- a backlight mod, keep an eye on my blog at www.blurbusters.com.
 
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