580watts is the max my PC ever used under any circumstances, even startup. Anyone advising 1kw PSUs for single 8800GTX boxes and dual core CPUs on air cooling is a fool. I bought my power supply mainly because it was a quality unit and I knew it would be capable of handling any expansion needs over the next couple of years. Mainly though I bought it because it was a quality, part. Needing that much power had nothing to do with it.
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Quad core means no physics card needed
- Thread starter Deathspine
- Start date
580watts is the max my PC ever used under any circumstances, even startup. Anyone advising 1kw PSUs for single 8800GTX boxes and dual core CPUs on air cooling is a fool. I bought my power supply mainly because it was a quality unit and I knew it would be capable of handling any expansion needs over the next couple of years. Mainly though I bought it because it was a quality, part. Needing that much power had nothing to do with it.
Bleedblue12345
[H]ard|Gawd
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The toughpower is by far and away the best psu u can buy. Nothing else touches its 100a on the 12v, and should last anyone a few years. It is a great part, and will allow for much upgadeability/overclocking.
MrWizard6600
Supreme [H]ardness
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lol
nothing can touch 120 A on the 12Vs
note the 240V input, meaning you can use one of em special 4 pronged outlets (120V supply, 120V supply, return, ground) for a stove, or use regular 120V jacks, but two of them, and each drawing from the hot rail seperatly.
1500 WATTS?!?! WTF?!? WHO NEEDS THAT KIND OF POWER?!
this is getting out of hand...
What if you wanted to run two 2900XT's super-overclocked, an AMD 4x4, 12 SATA HDD's, 4 Opticals, as many PCI cards as you could fit in there.... Cold Cathodes and LED's up the wazoo....
Wait, the 1200W would still handle that with ease
Quad cores don't kill PPU. The simple reason is that PPU was never alive.
There is no big perceived need for this as there was with 3d cards. A good programmer can code a more limited but still realistic appearing physics with much less CPU usage than banging together a general Physics library, that practically requires hardware to accelerate it.
There will never be any fair way to do this comparison, because comparing Ageia Lib on CPU vs Dedicated HW is allowing the guys who want to sell you the hardware to write the comparison software.
The bottom line though is that this is only going to be something purchased by the lunatic fringe. After they have all the CPU/GPU/RAM that they need, then they might consider physics acceleration if there were actually something that benefited. Perhaps 1 gamer in 10 000 after they have their 4GB Ram/high speed quad core and SLI 8800 GTXs.
I really think this is dead for now. Maybe in a few years when we all have 8+core cpus we can have core designed for different purposes including Physics. Maybe Intel SSE 6...
But a dedicated card, forget it. All the demos I have seen essentially add more objects into explosions. Yipee. Hardly something I would buy another piece of hardware for. I would much rather have better gameplay/AI than better prettier explosions.
There is no big perceived need for this as there was with 3d cards. A good programmer can code a more limited but still realistic appearing physics with much less CPU usage than banging together a general Physics library, that practically requires hardware to accelerate it.
There will never be any fair way to do this comparison, because comparing Ageia Lib on CPU vs Dedicated HW is allowing the guys who want to sell you the hardware to write the comparison software.
The bottom line though is that this is only going to be something purchased by the lunatic fringe. After they have all the CPU/GPU/RAM that they need, then they might consider physics acceleration if there were actually something that benefited. Perhaps 1 gamer in 10 000 after they have their 4GB Ram/high speed quad core and SLI 8800 GTXs.
I really think this is dead for now. Maybe in a few years when we all have 8+core cpus we can have core designed for different purposes including Physics. Maybe Intel SSE 6...
But a dedicated card, forget it. All the demos I have seen essentially add more objects into explosions. Yipee. Hardly something I would buy another piece of hardware for. I would much rather have better gameplay/AI than better prettier explosions.
That's more your wish you want them dead but they are alive.
Dead means game over. They still operate in the market as PhysX lib provider for Consoles CPU and PPU. And still pushing the new PPU market.
There a difference between dead or having a hard time or slow progress.
Its over till the fat lady sings. I don't see CPU as a treat only if they hold back PP2 to long. There Direct competitor will become the GPU.
Now Graw 2 PC is out with ageia island map. Yet agian a small step in the strugle. But a good example of retail use. However at a to low scale. A sign as being alive and kicking.
The need/wish for Physics rich games is there but without those games the need for hardware isn't there yet.
Not well preceived could be due to :
1 Game marketing is fucused on flashy screenshot's and in game fancy graphics ( GFX ).
The market is fancy GFX drivven. So AI Physics has a back seat. Physics got some atention, but runs still far behind 3d part.
2 There was a very early competition announced. GPU's with HavokFX and GpGPU use.
Wich take away all the green and red green enthausiast (the fan's) they will prefere GPU over annything, most of them will. Some even on a crusade against PPU.
3 Dev's must implement heavy Physics needs in there gamedesign and this is a Game Production workload booster and have some pitfalls and risk to. So they are not jumping on the train that fast or blindly. Bigger production can make somthing out of it.
If more dev's go for it and sucseed to make a good enhance game the need for PPU will rise as it's up to the gamedevelopers and there results.
4...
Keep in mind Cellfactor revolution is a budged project in a short time produced.
And keep in mind GPGPU with havokFX for Phsyics with a dedicated GPU falls under hardware accelerated Phsyics to. And will see the same problems.
So Ageia Idea of hardware accelerated Phsyics is Alive even before the competition of GPU starts, Because GPU have a strong chance to take it over from PPU. So this goal of ageia is a sucses even if GPU might take the flag over from ageia PPU. But maybe they would coexcist for a while then Ageia will have some sucses to.
I saw the crysis demolition of a house it was in a crude low detaild way, as wall's in large complete parts fall away.
Ageia hut is smaller but more detaild as you destroy shred each plank out of each wall There are more wooden planks then a house have walls.
how ever the metalsheet roof is in the detail of the crysis demo it must be blow away with a explosion 8 plates I think.
This means there is still room for more Phsyics even for PPU..
Metal plates can use the Phsyics feature of metal sheet. It a special kind of cloth that can be shreded but with metal properties. A LMG 5.56 nato rounds would shoot trough thin metal sheet.
Physic game code expert are rare. Crytech has one, that why they can do it inhouse. Other team do'nt have the expertise or budged or time to do it inhouse. They must fall to middleware and focus on game core Physics needs then the low level stuff.
Middleware Lib is offcourse done by such domain expert in Game Physics so it highly optimised and has all the populair features and more. And years of refinement and iteration. Also in time the feature set is growing to the need of most modern Game projects exceding far beyond inhouse Phsyics module can do in there restricted time span and resources. Then a imiddleware Physics expert can as developer focus his team and all its time and expertise and resources to make great Physics lib over manny years. PhysX(novadex), Havok(FX), Newton Some licence Game engine developers do implement there own phsyX lib's if they have the expertise or time, Crytech. Or go for middleware to, Epic.
This level of refinement of such lib a inhouse solution can''t reach that easely.
A Crytech team has more time then the average Dev team to make something that fullfill there needs as part of a full reusable game-engine.
This is code reuse.
The only catch with premade libs: Are all the features you need in there? If not is it extensible? Or can you do without it? Is it Prim, secondair thertiar Physics features. So many choices to make for dev's. And different Libs to choose from.
Crysis aimed at realsitic and interacting jungle that is a feature requierment for such physics lib's. It feels like a primary requierment.
Middleware support many platforms like PhysX Havok supports: CPU and next consoles. And its efficent. While one support PPU to and the other GPU instead.
As with hardware support goes such middleware act like a hardware abstraction for the dev it's just a initializing thing and the Dev need to make two code path and or different Phyics loads for CPU and PPU mode.
That doesn't mean your conspiricy theory is true. This is acusing without proof. Because your against PPU you lookin out for a stick to beat it.
PPU has more power then CPU This possibility is more plausible
As it's a specialized chip pure for Physics computation only a CPU is not optimal for this and is not dedicated. 3 factors that muliply.
For the CPU to overun it as nondedicated chip it has to be 4 times more powerfull due to it non dedicated use. If one Core is use for Physics.
This will not exclude the conspiracy theory
But ever seen Games doing what CF:R and GRaw2 ageia island does. And I mean The whole Physics package. Not one specific isolated Feature.
Like boxes or fancy explosions. Physic hardware acceleration is more then that.
Well I wont slam a PPU in a crappy game rig. I agree that it's something as a option after your game rig is up to date and like some PhyX games you want to play in full Physics.
And if budged is no problem. Those people are rare but they are there. While I wont go for SLI as I'am not Fixated on GFX but AI and Physics I'am lookin out for.
What's dead. PPU or Hardware acceleration as that include GPU to for Physics.
Graw2 is just out so it's alive. gPU doesn't have been started yet.
For CPU that would be 45nm or 35nm Chips.
PPU3 could be 45nm or 65 nm by then they going from 130nm to 80nm now.
Also PPU direct competitor GpGPU use GPU will then go beyond TeraFlops wich give mucho Physics power trough havok FX
That 8 core thing could beat the old PPU but progress will go on all fronts CPU GPU and PPU's It would be PPU2 or PPU3.
While PhysX games needs PPU and HavokFX needs GPU's
And maybe a DirectPhysX API is on the horizon PPU vs GPU. The PPU will be priced acording to Performance/price ratio compared to GPU.
While a Fusion CPU will do all. the hardcore gamer/ power user highbudged costumers go for a High-end GPU and PPU to acclerate there game in a setting far beyond a Fusion chip can handle. That possibility depend what market requiers. And how much Physics load Dev's are willing to use in that time in the future. As a Fusion chip will be non dedicated and a budged solution to all those tasks.
Keep in mind with havokFX a G-card can be use also as dedicated hardware for Physics.
Like a complete extra 8800Ultra or HD2900XT1GB Those offer a halve TeraGflops for Physics. Also a Dedicated card.
Because the tech demo's? What demo's? That not retail use of hardware accelerated Physics. Could aply to the first Graw1. CellFactor Revolution is and most recently Graw2 Ageia island. It depends on what dev's do with the potentional in front of them they choose a mix of Physics features to enhance there game and more preferable the gameplay. Wich requier gameplay Physics. From this there is a demo for.CF :CT demo.
But a full game CF:R and GRaw2 with ageia-island
And in the near future Warmonger.
Like in ageia island. There is realtime dust this is effect Physics not a prim Physics function. As all Pysics add up. Instead wasting on that they could enhance the destructable palm tree's more. Wich have just one only a low brake point. I would see more like 10 to 16.
While on the other hand, wood fences are more detaild destructable. With the LMG you can kill foo's behind it to shred the fence and foo behind it.
Wooden hut in a more detaild destructable manner you can shred wood where enemy hiding behind, with a LMG.
Blow stuf up, building, steel plated fences, whole hut's.
I wonder what Warmonger do.
Keep in mind no game of yet using this feature set.
The physics mix as all add up. That is at least a Destructable structures feature, with dust, cloths and debri, enhanced particles and the standaard Physics average games have.
That why PhysX PPU offer gameplay Physics wich gives also a demand for better AI
So with PPU and gameplay Phsyics you need that Quadcore for AI.
while Crysis have Some destructive ness at low detail it give the need of better AI to handle this change in envoirment and Pathing.
No one knows if that source is reliable or not.
Well guys, why don't you look at the info straight from Ageia? According to them there are several games out or in the pipe for PhysX, and about 6 different engines including UE3. That's not too shabby:
http://www.ageia.com/physx/titles.html
The BFG card on newegg is $141.99 right now http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814143055&Tpk=physx
Also, just looking at the reviews on newegg, there's a lot of misinformation and BS out on PhysX. http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductReview.aspx?Item=N82E16814143055
http://www.ageia.com/physx/titles.html
The BFG card on newegg is $141.99 right now http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814143055&Tpk=physx
Also, just looking at the reviews on newegg, there's a lot of misinformation and BS out on PhysX. http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductReview.aspx?Item=N82E16814143055
They've been saying this for awhile. The fact is that it really hasn't happened yet and the contributions to the games that the PhsyX card makes aren't generally worth the price of admission as far as many are concerned. I'll buy one if and only if it will make a huge difference in a game I enjoy and play regularly.
I see what you're saying, but then well it's the Catch 22 as others have said: wait for the games first then buy, or buy and wait for the games. Either way, it doesn't help the game devs and Ageia to have peeps sitting on the fence.
But AFAIK there's Cell Factor, Villains, and GRAW right now, right - and maybe a couple others? I dunno, but one thing's for sure: if Unreal 3/UT2k7 was out now and PhysX ready, I'd buy the PPU for that alone and still be ready for Warmonger, Crysis and such.
But AFAIK there's Cell Factor, Villains, and GRAW right now, right - and maybe a couple others? I dunno, but one thing's for sure: if Unreal 3/UT2k7 was out now and PhysX ready, I'd buy the PPU for that alone and still be ready for Warmonger, Crysis and such.
Demon_of_The_Fall
Limp Gawd
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Generic_NewEgg_Retard said:
AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Internet needs more kick in the teeth button.
I don't personally see CPU taking over the job of a physics processor any time soon. Especially in light of the fact that a GPU can run F@H calculations ~30 times faster than a CPU. 90 gigaflops from a single GPU vs. 3 or 4 from a dual core?
If I read that right, I don't see a CPU taking over the job of a dedicated and specialized physics processor EVER.
Ageia's solution may not be for everyone at the moment, but I guarantee that soon we will be using either dedicated PPU's, or video cards with such hardware embedded.
If I read that right, I don't see a CPU taking over the job of a dedicated and specialized physics processor EVER.
Ageia's solution may not be for everyone at the moment, but I guarantee that soon we will be using either dedicated PPU's, or video cards with such hardware embedded.
It's not even a high end thing. Not many people are using it because the small things it does for games like GRAW and GRAW 2 aren't impressive enough for many people to justify the cost.
Bleedblue12345
[H]ard|Gawd
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I could go out and buy a physx card right now, but theres no games out so it would be a big waist of money
Not if you've got the parts you want already and don't want to replace them but still want PhysX.
Yes, but video cards are currently a NEED for gaming, because gaming software require them. PPUs are not needed. If they bring out AAA titles that require it (that are severely bottlenecked by the software solution), then it can sell....but until that point, software physics will dominate. That's exactly why they need to EASE physics into the market.
qft, good arguments - would read again.
I dont have a need for 100a, nor will I for a few years to come.. My enermax 650W pumps out 86 which, imo, is plenty for anybody..
Trepidati0n
[H]F Junkie
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- Oct 26, 2004
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Exactly. I can afford them and even at their introductory price they would have been affordable to me. Even so, at any price over $100 they offer nothing to justify the cost. I'm hardly thrifty either as some of you know. It just doesn't do enough to warrant wasting a PCI slot at present. The card isn't bad hardware, it's just nothing I find particularly useful right now.
Paulo Narciso
Weaksauce
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I ran the source particles benchmark on my q6600 and it was a joke. Very slow.
Bleedblue12345
[H]ard|Gawd
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its pretty obvious the physx sdk isnt optimized a whole lot for non physx users, which is why it sucks
Paulo Narciso
Weaksauce
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Source engine is the one used in Half Life 2, it uses havoc physics.
SuperKeijo
Gawd
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Lmao. Sure it does.
“its pretty obvious the physx sdk isnt optimized a whole lot for non physx users, which is why it sucks “
That’s crazy of course its optimised for none physx PPU owners. 99% of physx powered games don’t even use the PPU. The main target are none PPU owers using the CPU so if anything its going be more optimised for that.
That’s crazy of course its optimised for none physx PPU owners. 99% of physx powered games don’t even use the PPU. The main target are none PPU owers using the CPU so if anything its going be more optimised for that.
MrGuvernment
Fully [H]
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my thoughts
User side:
$200 for a better CPU, or $200 for an add-in card that has next to no game support...
developers side:
lets code for an add-in card next to no one has, or for a multi-core cpu user base which is a large user base already, especially gamers....
User side:
$200 for a better CPU, or $200 for an add-in card that has next to no game support...
developers side:
lets code for an add-in card next to no one has, or for a multi-core cpu user base which is a large user base already, especially gamers....
My thoughts:
User side 200$ for a better CPU or PPU?
Err... get cpu, it's general purpose, then get ppu for your hardcore gamer needs.
Dev side:
Let's use Ageia's SDK that support both PPU and CPU hardware and software that is royalty free, unlike Havok which cost tons and support only software!
Yeah no brainer...That is why many devs uses physx engine to develop games that are cross platform because the SDK comes with the whole package no need to pay extra for each platform and since it's software as well as hardware, it is a very attractive middleware.
BTW how much is few? 10-20-40 per year?
User side 200$ for a better CPU or PPU?
Err... get cpu, it's general purpose, then get ppu for your hardcore gamer needs.
Dev side:
Let's use Ageia's SDK that support both PPU and CPU hardware and software that is royalty free, unlike Havok which cost tons and support only software!
Yeah no brainer...That is why many devs uses physx engine to develop games that are cross platform because the SDK comes with the whole package no need to pay extra for each platform and since it's software as well as hardware, it is a very attractive middleware.
BTW how much is few? 10-20-40 per year?
It's not about what it's capable of (CPU vs. PhysX) it's about convenience. All current PCs can go without a PhysX card and most will. After all who wants to spend another $200-$300 on a physics processor when you have multiple core systems that will become main stream sooner or later? Programmers can use multi core systems to their advantage since it's more likely that a multi core CPU will exist in a system rather than a high performance PPU.
I think the most accurate description of the situation is that a "killer app" is still needed for the PPU to shine. Until then developers will continue to turn their eyes at multi core CPUs for offloading physics. And yes they will get better results with higher performance in this scenario versus a single core CPU. Not just because of the newer, faster technology but because of the dedicated core itself. But we already knew that.
Bring in the killer PPU app and we'll see it crush a multi core system I'm sure. For the sake of money/time/convenience (pick two) you will see multi core systems become the new frontier for physics processing.
WTH are you guys talking about, $200.-$300. for a PPU? They're currently $139.99. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121015
Try to get your facts straight before spewing propaganda.
What gets me is so many piss & moan about having to spend a little extra for a cool feature that will actually add to gameplay. Sure, what PhysX brings is not that great or earth-shattering, but it doesn't cost that much to get either.
Some of you don't mind spending thousands of $$ on a gaming rig, and will spend for say 4 HD's in RAID to get a few percentage faster, but have a problem spending the cost of a single Raptor for a neat tech like PhysX.
This is like paying major bux for a 4-week safari to Africa, then bitching about the cab fare to the airport.
I don't get it.
Try to get your facts straight before spewing propaganda.
What gets me is so many piss & moan about having to spend a little extra for a cool feature that will actually add to gameplay. Sure, what PhysX brings is not that great or earth-shattering, but it doesn't cost that much to get either.
Some of you don't mind spending thousands of $$ on a gaming rig, and will spend for say 4 HD's in RAID to get a few percentage faster, but have a problem spending the cost of a single Raptor for a neat tech like PhysX.
This is like paying major bux for a 4-week safari to Africa, then bitching about the cab fare to the airport.
I don't get it.
MrGuvernment
Fully [H]
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okay thas still $140 towards a better CPU which will give you more overall performance and in more games as well...
Not if you want to utilize full PhysX graphics, it won't. And as someone else hinted at earlier, just how many games would it take to be enough? 3? 10? 50? Every game that comes to market from now on? That's a little unrealistic.
Also at some point, a faster CPU does you no good in games. Getting say 123 FPS compared to 100 is not much use. But it's good for bragging rights that's about all.
Also at some point, a faster CPU does you no good in games. Getting say 123 FPS compared to 100 is not much use. But it's good for bragging rights that's about all.
WTH are you guys talking about, $200.-$300. for a PPU? They're currently $139.99. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121015
Try to get your facts straight before spewing propaganda.
What gets me is so many piss & moan about having to spend a little extra for a cool feature that will actually add to gameplay. Sure, what PhysX brings is not that great or earth-shattering, but it doesn't cost that much to get either.
Some of you don't mind spending thousands of $$ on a gaming rig, and will spend for say 4 HD's in RAID to get a few percentage faster, but have a problem spending the cost of a single Raptor for a neat tech like PhysX.
This is like paying major bux for a 4-week safari to Africa, then bitching about the cab fare to the airport.
I don't get it.
This is after the fact they're that cheap. How much were they when they first entered the market? How much will the new version of the PhysX be? How much would these cards cost if they had in fact caught on and become main stream? You bet your arse they wouldn't be $140.
And yes you'll be bitching about the cab fair from the airport if you blew your whole wad in Africa.
Of course you're 100%, if they were more popular they would be even cheaper, the more you sell the cheaper you can produce a product, and when one comes close to EoL to be replaced by a newer version prices go down even further to clear up inventory.
Same goes for cpu, gpu memory, etc...It's called economy.
Uh no. Popularity does not guarantee prices lowering. Competition does. Market saturation can but that would be where supply/demand logistics come into play. Come on, think. Why have the 8800GTX and Ultra cards barely dropped in price since they've been released? OK "barely" is a strong word but they've not come down as much as expected. The only time that I can recall a significant drop was in response to the pending release of the 2900. The price of an item doesn't drop simply because of it's continued existence. The price drops due to competition. And if we had decent PPU useage in titles then PhysX cards would be at a premium until others started building similar products and marketing them. Until there was competition and/or new product releases then the price would not simply drop on it's own. THAT is business.
That's some great logic there, Wolf.
And that's a brilliant rebuttal, replete with excellent points. My argument has been crushed. Thanks for that spate of brilliance. We're all enlightened by your mere presence.