Pure UNIX and how to get it as well is it legacy and if so what's happened to it?

Discussion in 'Linux/BSD/Free Systems' started by scharfshutze009, Feb 10, 2018.

  1. scharfshutze009

    scharfshutze009 [H]ard|Gawd

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    I did all of this except I can't find or manage to take a screenshot of this part: "at the top of the virtualbox VM window: devices > floppy drives > choose disk image"

    and here is a screenshot of this part: "or in settings in (system) make sure floppy is checked and the first boot devices, then go to storage , make sure there is a floppy controller, if not add one under the add controller button, after that you can add the first boot image and power on the VM."

    [​IMG]
     
  2. tbg

    tbg Limp Gawd

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    you can add the floppy image right there with the blue disk with the + on it next to where it says controller:floppy.
     
  3. scharfshutze009

    scharfshutze009 [H]ard|Gawd

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    Ok thank you I figured that out and sorry it took me so long to figure it out, but I don't think or know if I have ever mounted a floppy to a vmware virtual machine before. However, what am I supposed to do here and after follows:

    [​IMG]

    What do I do here because this is not nearly as easy as modern Linux:

    [​IMG]
     
  4. tbg

    tbg Limp Gawd

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    don't know, I don't see a picture.

    yes it is not as easy as modern linux and thats why I said YOU should pick a single linux, stick with it and get good at it. you who struggles all the time on simple things have no need to go venturing off in to some os that is only an interesting bit of history at this point.
     
  5. scharfshutze009

    scharfshutze009 [H]ard|Gawd

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    The reason for venturing off to this was to see what it was like to use it, if it was even necessary, and how Linus Torvalds got a copy of the UNIX kernel from UNIX back in 1991 regardless if it wasn't from System V because I don't know which UNIX he got the UNIX kernel from to start making the first Linux kernel and I wanted to know how to obtain the Purest form of Original UNIX too before it forked off into BSD and other forks. Sorry for all the hassle, but I just wanted to try the closest thing to Original UNIX too as well as see the original code used to make it as well, even if there are easier ways to view the code. I also wanted to know if when or if the last form of original UNIX ran on x86 hardware. I even wanted to know if it was even necessary to go back to it to revive it, help solve the problem with the end of UNIX time according to the Computerphile, and stay true to it's original purpose, even if other forks or BSD may already be addressing this issue especially better than the last form of Original UNIX. I sfruggle for the most part because I have trouble staying awake as well as figuring out a good place to start with my personal project, which in this case was developing a kernel or good kernel that I would at least be satisfied with if not anyone else, and I struggle to complete learing how to use an Operating System anymore for those reasons as well as that I can find one method of learning how to use an Operating System or Program that just works.

    I document in physical notebooks, using my former Linux instructors journal script, reading books as well as borrowing information from those books and collecting research from the internet by saving them as PDF's. I have picked a single Linux though and dedicated myself to getting good at it though, but I wanted to know more about how it all worked from the ground up and only UNIX/Linux makes it easy to do that. I satisfied my urge to know enough about what original UNIX was like for now I suppose, but could go even deeper maybe and discover more about it.

    I found this manual on UNIX System V too, but it was of very little use as UNIX System V didn't recognize a lot of the commands I already tried that were or seemed appropriate to use and that this lab manual said should or shouldn't work:

    http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/...TT_UNIX_PC_System_V_Users_Manual_Volume_1.pdf

    Thanks for your help with getting this far. If you can help me get any further with System V provided it is necessary or if I want to at this point then thank you in advance.
     
  6. tbg

    tbg Limp Gawd

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    like i said i cant see the image in our last post, what is the problem you are having, where are you stuck now?

    Also you have to understand that pure unix as you may be thinking is not that clear cut, atnt and berkely were taking and including each others code long before sysv became a thing. go back and look at the pdf or svg file i linked with the history, you will see there was a lot of stuff feeding their changes back in to each other.
     
  7. scharfshutze009

    scharfshutze009 [H]ard|Gawd

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    Thanks I will look for it. I did see that True OS now offers very good features compared to Ubuntu and maybe without someone spying on us as users too, so I want to test it out in a virtual machine. I was set to use PC BSD before they discontinued it, but it wasn't as easy to use as Linux regardless of if it had better security features.
     
  8. scharfshutze009

    scharfshutze009 [H]ard|Gawd

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    Apparently according to the following I can breathe a breath of relief as the true meaning of the Copyleft agreement aparently doesn't mean anything bad at least in my opinion and that stallman made it possible for me to be able to do things in computing that might not otherwise have been possible without the Copyleft terms:

    [​IMG]
     
  9. scharfshutze009

    scharfshutze009 [H]ard|Gawd

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    You know what though after all this thread put me through that I started I have one more question at least and that is why doesn't at least TrueOS BSD seem to offer as many features as some of the feature rich Linux distros, such as CentOS or Ubuntu. I know FreeBSD might, but FreeBSD isn't just ready to use out of the box compared to PC-BSD that TrueOS replaced. Also, the documentation says very little about how to use the command line for TrueOS compared to FreeBSD and Linux except for Linuxmint, which is a shame because some people still haven't realized how much the command line can help fix things with an operating system if it's not to broken that it needs a good boot repair, rescue, or antivirus scan if not a full backup restoration prior to when it went down, which is something Linux definitely offers compared to BSD if not other Operating Systems especially Mac or WIndows.
     
  10. scharfshutze009

    scharfshutze009 [H]ard|Gawd

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    In reply to my own reply FreeBSD is feature rich, well documented, and the documentation my help provide solutions as well as command line solution to problem with TrueOS that the TrueOS documentation doesn't or won't. Either way though BSD will never or probably never go public or commercial if it hasn't because AT&T blocked it from doing so unless they are no longer blocking BSD from going public or commercial and that is why there is Linux or GNU/Linux if you prefer to consider Linux as GNU/Linux all considering that nobody really wants to take credit away from the GNU community by calling it simply Linux either in most cases or at least my case and just want a simpler name or way to refer to Linux aka GNU/Linux. Also, considering the many distributions of Linux or forks of BSD UNIX if not UNIX to satisfy or meet the demands of consumers if not myself all because there doesn't seem to be an exact science for everything that needs supported in the computer industry or life in general. Basically Linux was allowed to initial do what BSD UNIX wasn't and that was go public or commercial and the reason for the success of Linux if not many other reasons.
     
  11. ryan_975

    ryan_975 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    BSD contains AT&T code, so it can't be distributed without permission from AT&T. FreeBSD is just BSD UNIX without any AT&T code, so it can be freely distributed according to its own license terms. In fact IBM, Juniper, Apple, and Sony all used FreeBSD to create OS's for their products.

    RE GNU and Linux: unlike FreeBSD, Linux is not a full OS. It's only the kernel and drivers. Everything else (command line environment, GUI, tools, services, etc) has to be provided by a third party. GNU happened to be an OS that needed a kernel. So the two were perfect for each other.

    As for why Linux is more popular than FreeBSD, it's just the way it worked out.
     
  12. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed Gawd

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    The whole AT&T licensing thing is why Linux smashed Unix. All of a sudden sysadmins were like "why run Unix for a fee when we can run Linux for free and it's essentially the same thing so there's very little learning curve involved." Making Linux open source and sticking by that was one of the best things Linus ever did.
     
  13. ryan_975

    ryan_975 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    FreeBSD was also free of the AT&T license restrictions, and was released around the same time Linux started maturing into a useful kernel.
     
  14. tbg

    tbg Limp Gawd

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    trueos is based on freebsd, it is basically freebsd packaged up for easier desktop use. there is no reason for them to document all the command line stuff, because it is pretty much all the same as freebsd.
     
  15. scharfshutze009

    scharfshutze009 [H]ard|Gawd

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    Yes, but it can make it more difficult to figure out if the same commands work in TrueOS compared to FreeBSD because there are at least some slight differences though and not have it all in one place much like figuring out if Ubuntu commands or other Ubuntu software will work in Linuxmint or Linuxmint Debian can be a problem to considering Ubuntu and Linuxmint or LMDE are basically Debian distributions of Debian that also may make it difficult to see if Ubuntu software works in Debian too for that matter, even though most UNIX/Linux commands are Universal across all UNIX/LInux platforms, fork, distros or whatever they get referred to being called. Basically TrueOS's documentation lacks so much explaination or reference to FreeBSD the most well documented BSD fork that a tremendous amount of referring back to FreeBSD has to be done to explain and write clear documentation on how to resolve issue that arise or may arise that TrueOS documentation leaves out almost completely if not completely. TrueOS isn't as bad as Linuxmint about this though and at least it not like Microsoft who leaves users completely in the dark if they can't access solutions on the internet though as well as seems to make people think they don't need to be prepared for internet outages or worse as many other computer companies do by keeping solutions available on line only in forums or whatever instead of downloadable or websites capable of printing the entire documentation to file and then later to paper for disaster recovery situations.
     
  16. scharfshutze009

    scharfshutze009 [H]ard|Gawd

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    Yes, maybe, but UNIX dominated for so long especially in the 90's or before a lot people switch to Linux or something else. I see the problem with UNIX though especially when I talked to Hewlett Packerd Enterprise about HP-UX, which was that they said HP-UX if not other UNIX forks is closed source instead of Open Source compared to Linux, HP-UX if not other UNIX forks only run on their manufactured hardware, and only run on High End Enterprise Hardware using Itanium or other main frame level processors. This is what Linux resolved or at least to some degree. I haven't talked to IBM about AIX yet though or AT&T about UNIX either and what version of UNIX AT&T is still using if they are still using it at all as well as if their latest will run on my hardware or if I really want to use it either. I can't think of any other fork of Original UNIX I would want to use either that isn't BSD based or some other extremely foreign fork of it.

    I want to ask AT&T if they make their own network hardware equipment though instead of using Cisco to see if I would want to use it anyway especially considering I already have so much invested in Cisco hardware and can't afford to switch brands either anyway, which I know there is Juniper though. However, Juniper appears to not be able to get their products available at all the right levels compared to Cisco and cost a lot more because I can't find any refurbished Juniper hardware either and that only leave D-Link and 3com who also suffer from similar problems if not other problems when competing with Cisco product lines considering Cisco does everything I think a network equipment hardware company should do to provide hardware and software compared to their competition. Oh then in comparison to Cisco their is HP too, but HP is only better at providing network hardware for video. Finally, their is a lessor known company I knew about, but didn't know produced routers and switches called Supermicro, but they don't make Campus Switches or Modular Routers that I saw and once again I would need a complete overhaul to switch as well as wouldn't be able to use it for my College classes near by. The same goes for AT&T too if they make equivalent hardware to Cisco except AT&T is a phone company and Cisco is a network equipment hardware company or what it is.
     
  17. scharfshutze009

    scharfshutze009 [H]ard|Gawd

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    Yes I know, but GNU is working on it's own kernel though too anyway. However, GNU kernel is still not ready yet or available either, so those of us that use Linux or GNU have to use them together for now until GNU is ready to be independent enough and still continue to share it's programs with the Linux community if not other UNIX/Linux distro's or forks as well as with other users.
     
  18. ryan_975

    ryan_975 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Itanium is not a mainframe processor.


    I don't believe GNU will ever have a kernel capable of replacing Linux. They been trying for over 30 years.


    AT&T may still use UNIX internally, but they no longer own the rights to license it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2018
  19. scharfshutze009

    scharfshutze009 [H]ard|Gawd

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    Ok and that might be why I have a difficult time deciding to still with Linux or switch to BSD too especially considering the Ubuntu community is or may be spying on me and restricting things I do that I should be allowed to do that other Operating System restrict my use of or have problems with allowing me to do. This goes for optical media buring programs, such as Image burn that is malicious and CD burner XP that is only less malicious as well as other propreitary burning programs that don't support iso and have proprietary file formats that don't work with other optical media writing programs. Then it goes for proprietary back programs too that their are so many of as well that force me to have to back up files manually to be able to access and restore them in other Operating Systems I've used let alone even UNIX/Linux. This is why things need to be OpenSource or Freedom respecting too and why code needs to be portable instead of proprietary and all the other bad things that go along with that.

    FreeBSD lacked some features that Ubuntu has though, like IP masquerading if nothing else. However, FreeBSD has a lot of features documented that Ubuntu does, but doesn't have in one single PDF file for download and forces me to print each page to file as a PDF though. i'm not OS hoping though and don't like too either, but finding or making an OS that does everything I want it to hasn't happened yet.
     
  20. scharfshutze009

    scharfshutze009 [H]ard|Gawd

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    It can be and is often referred to as one as well is Intel's only Processor that gets used as one too for the most part. I read on Intel's site that they are discontinuing the Itanium too though, but HP showed me that they are still using it for highend servers that support HP-UX and therefore this doesn't seem to be completely true yet. Itanium is also Intel's most expensive processor and platform that is widely available that I know of regardless of if Intel is working on their own quantum computing solutions according to Linustech tips.
     
  21. tbg

    tbg Limp Gawd

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    ubuntu isn't spying on you,https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/ubuntu-spyware.en.html . here is an update from your hero richard stallman stating that the feature has been disabled by default since 16.04 if you need to hear it from him. you, and this is directed only at you, should stick with ubuntu. it has the largest community for you to go ask for help on the multitude of issues you seem to constantly encounter. I don't think you can handle a freebsd/trueos box. your post, being littered with inaccuracies show you only have a passing understanding of any of the stuff you are writing about. It reads like a student regurgitating what they thought their teacher told them with out ever really having understood or processed it. you worry about details that will never mater to you.
     
  22. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed Gawd

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    What? I fail to see just how Ubuntu is restricting you in any way whatsoever?

    You do know how to add a PPA?
     
  23. scharfshutze009

    scharfshutze009 [H]ard|Gawd

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    I've stuck with Ubuntu because it had features I've liked, but never got around to using them all not because I don't know how or can't figure out though or anything else. I should stick with CentOS though or try to get my hands on Redhat considering I learned CentOS in College and not any other distro though, which I now have access to Redhat Enterprise Linux Developer and the documentation. My interest in BSD only steams from past interest of learning UNIX and currently from this thread. My biggest problem is that I don't develop my own operating system in one sense because that is the only way to be in control of how everything works or to definitely know how everything works as well as how to fix it, but that is a real chore to do by myself and all I have is borrowed code for a kernel from alahandro's kernel and Linus Torvald's first Linux kernel that I can borrow from to in order to get anywhere meaningful that probably should be done. My Linux Instructor said repeadedly why reinvent the wheel, which he might be right, but people do it anyway because other people's don't do what they want and that might be my case too. I'm looking at other people Operating System's to see what any OS should do not OS hop though.
     
  24. scharfshutze009

    scharfshutze009 [H]ard|Gawd

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    I know how to add a PPA or look it up, but I don't know how to create a PPA and I'm not allowed to supply a PPA on my apartments courtesy isp because it might be considered using the computer I'm using on it being my laptop as a server or disrupting the network. Ubuntu is fine for now that I know of, but I was a little worried about what Stallman said that Ubuntu didn't fix until 16.4 though. However, I have not found a better Debian Distro than Ubuntu that does what I want not even straight Debian either, which Debian became unstable not long after the last time I installed it before I could even harden it and complete setting up security. Also, Debian wouldn't let me sudo as root immediately out of the box just like bsd forcing me to have to add myself to the sudoers, which is ok except I couldn't get to this part because Debian became almost completely crippled by some possible security breach almost immediately after logging into the GUI and it was on a virtual machine too. That's the problem I had with PC-BSD and FreeBSD in the past too as well as dragonfly BSD because non of them were stable enough for long enough compared to Ubuntu.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
  25. Mazzspeed

    Mazzspeed Gawd

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    Why would anyone want to make their own PPA? Are you a software developer?

    You talk about security but then you complain that you can't run as root straight out of the box?! Sudo exists for a very good reason.
     
  26. B00nie

    B00nie [H]ardness Supreme

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    If you haven't noticed, Scharf is outsourcing his computer tech homework on the forum. That's why the kernel development, PPA, surprising difficulty of things when following school material etc ;)

    And btw if you want to run as root, just sudo su.
     
    Mazzspeed likes this.
  27. scharfshutze009

    scharfshutze009 [H]ard|Gawd

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    I know about sudo, but it doesn't work if your standard user isn't part of the sudoers group automatically after installation though, which the typical error is something like not part of the sudoers when attempting to sudo. This happens on Mac OS X aka now Mac OS if you try to sudo from any other standard using account that has not been change to administer with root permissions, which can easily be done through the gui or the hardway in command line I though was only possible until Apple Care told me how to do it the easy way through the GUI.
     
  28. scharfshutze009

    scharfshutze009 [H]ard|Gawd

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    I know about sudo su, but didn't think it was for that purpose and the solution I found was to clone the root user in command line that once again Apple Care told me how to do the easy way in the GUI for my Mac Computers. By the way I'm not trying to outsource my computer tech homework on this forum and these are real problems I face for everyday use. The kernel development was more of a spare time project to see how it was done and how it worked, which I found a better place for help regardless if they weren't or didn't help any more than HF for the same or similar reasons except that they run a dedicated forum for helping programmers. PPA is easy to add, but not as easy to configure a server to provide them for others and I wasn't asking how to make a PPA though either as that can be harder.

    I may seem to be asking surprisingly difficult things when following school material, but only to keep my material about it updated and accurate or to ask something that wasn't covered during the actual school work back then, which I've found it's just better to search through the documentation because the people on here don't want to help and neighter do the people on actual forums designed to help with those Operating System like ask Ubuntu's stack exchange until I can get enough reputation points for Ubuntu forum. I have to look up what the the PPA name is though for adding PPA's I have difficulty finding in the documentation. Providing PPA might not be as hard as I might be making it seem because I have difficulty finding time to get around to do it. Making them would might be nice, but I'm not that skilled of a programmer yet if at all and HF doesn't provide help for programmers anymore either that I know of.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
  29. scharfshutze009

    scharfshutze009 [H]ard|Gawd

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    Just a little heads up about in regards to the original Linux kernel shown below that I'm looking at now considering I can't find a kernel.asm file if their should be one, since all I can find is a kernel.h file that I know is just a C programming language file it contains the following and keep in might this code came from a file on winworldpc.com too:


    a/*
    * 'kernel.h' contains some often-used function prototypes etc
    */
    void verify_area(void * addr,int count);
    volatile void panic(const char * str);
    int printf(const char * fmt, ...);
    int printk(const char * fmt, ...);
    int tty_write(unsigned ch,char * buf,int count);

    Now if only I could see what at least one of the original UNIX kernel files looked, like to get an idea of what it was like and more as well as to figure out why it actually was good choice for Linus including why he actually choose to make the Linux kernel monolithic.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
  30. ryan_975

    ryan_975 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I'm pretty sure I linked to the UNIX v6 source code earlier in this thread, albeit translated to ANSI-C and adapted for x86.
     
  31. Red Falcon

    Red Falcon [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Don't forget about A/UX (Apple UNIX) from the late 1980s and early 1990s - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A/UX
    I did run this very briefly on my Quadra 950 before switching over to Mac OS 8 and NetBSD 6.1.5, but A/UX is a legitimate System V UNIX OS, and will run on quite a bit of Apple's m68k-based equipment and was quite powerful and versatile at the time. :)
     
  32. scharfshutze009

    scharfshutze009 [H]ard|Gawd

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    hmm ok. What made you reply with this?
     
  33. scharfshutze009

    scharfshutze009 [H]ard|Gawd

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    Do you mean here:

    https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electri...rating-system-engineering-fall-2012/index.htm

    or here:

    http://www.jbox.dk/sanos/pdp11.htm

    Considering that's all I could find from you earlier in this thread.

    I think you mean this:

    http://www.jbox.dk/sanos/pdp11.htm

    Considering this:

    http://www.jbox.dk/sanos/pdp11.htm

    Is the closest thing to what you mean?
     
  34. scharfshutze009

    scharfshutze009 [H]ard|Gawd

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    Regardless of if you meant this:

    http://www.jbox.dk/sanos/pdp11.htm

    How am I supposed to do any of the following on an x86 or x86_64 processor because I already have it running in a VM, but the command spits back jibberious output when I try to use a command to install it from the virtual floppy and the documentation I showed on UNIX System V was just man pages of command that should have work, but didn't and weren't the commands needed to partition, format, and start the installer from the virtual floppy drive when using the floppy disk images. Therefore, I couldn't get any furthor even if I wanted to in hopes of making any progres whatsoever if it was even necessay, even to just see how Linus Torvalds got the UNIX kernel to make the Linux kernel what it is today.

    http://www.jbox.dk/sanos/pdp11.htm

    The reason I say that is because I found nothing on how to run on PC processors except building a simulator from scratch, which if I have to do that it will have to be done later because I don't have time if it's going to take awhile with College course work that needs to be done to get a bachelor's.
     
  35. ryan_975

    ryan_975 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I was talking about the first link. Click lectures and readings, then download the xv6book.pdf listed at the top of the page.


    As for getting UNIX SysV installed, it's not that difficult. The first floppy image walks you through the process.
     
  36. Red Falcon

    Red Falcon [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Just throwing it out there since it would allow you to run a "pure" UNIX OS within an emulator or on original m68k hardware.
     
  37. tbg

    tbg Limp Gawd

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    I have seen plenty of people try to help you on these very forums. but you know what they say, you can lead a horse to water...
     
  38. scharfshutze009

    scharfshutze009 [H]ard|Gawd

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    Yep heard that plenty of times too and listening, but time is an issue.
     
  39. scharfshutze009

    scharfshutze009 [H]ard|Gawd

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    This might be UNIX or considered Pure UNIX, but not what I had in mind. I might give it a shot though.
     
  40. scharfshutze009

    scharfshutze009 [H]ard|Gawd

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    Thanks, but the install went to hell as soon as I tried any command I knew for modern UNIX/Linux.