PS5 - The Future of Gaming | The Power of V

[Bankie]

If you just go watch Cerny's presentation, you'll see specific examples and explanations as to why all of these assumptions are wrong.

Cerny said that any expansion drives will need to be faster than the base PS5 drive due to the reduced amount of priority states that the PS5 hardware makes use of (5 on the PS5 vs 2 on standard drives IIRC). The fact that you can brute force this makes me think that it's not as big of a deal as they're making it out to be. It reminds me of when MS teased the original XBox and used some Cat with a Time Machine game to show how the hard drive will "change gaming as we know it".

 

[T4rd]

You mean the PS5 lead system architect Mark Cerny? That Cerny? I might as well ask a representative from the coal industry for proof of clean coal.

And yet he's not a PR person and you can't refute anything he says in that presentation with any evidence to prove his findings otherwise. You'd much rather dismiss any evidence that contradicts your bad assumptions.

I can understand CD/DVDs because you stamp them out, but files on a HDD are not stamped out. They don't know where the files will be placed just as much as you do. What if most of the data is near the inner portion of the drive? What if the files fragment? I can think for myself ya know.

I think you've shown you can't think for yourself, as you haven't even tried to see what file system the PS4 uses and you'll never know how it works since it's proprietary and assuredly optimizes game files on the HDD for the very task of finding asset data as fast as possible.

Do me a favor and continue to ignore me instead of responding to me indirectly. You layed shit out in front of me. Any links? Any videos? Anything that compares to loading times on PC?

Since I'm off work now and can link to the video, here you go, I dare you to watch the whole thing and then actually find any evidence/links to dispute any of the technical details laid out in the video. I mean, he's just a PR shill, right? Not a System Architect lead of the console or anything and I'm sure is totally incompetent compared to your vast hardware and software development background of shit-posting in console threads here, lol. Should be totally easy to dispute anything said there.

 

[T4rd]

Cerny said that any expansion drives will need to be faster than the base PS5 drive due to the reduced amount of priority states that the PS5 hardware makes use of (5 on the PS5 vs 2 on standard drives IIRC). The fact that you can brute force this makes me think that it's not as big of a deal as they're making it out to be. It reminds me of when MS teased the original XBox and used some Cat with a Time Machine game to show how the hard drive will "change gaming as we know it".

Indeed, this shows that "Sony bought some special SSD's that are faster than ones on the market today." Which was one part of his post that the video addresses and what I wanted him to find out for himself instead of relying on his other bad assumptions.

I don't think anyone is under the assumption that consumer SSD tech (or hardware in general) wouldn't surpass this special PS5 SSD at some point and I think it's awesome that they're still letting you upgrade the drive at some point when consumer SSDs are fast enough to replace it. You have to admit it's somewhat forward-thinking of them to try and "future-proof" (as much as I hate that term) the console as much as possible in that regard, without requiring a completely proprietary solution.

 

[Revdarian]

The real problem that PC will face is in the driver stack and the associated route that data needs to follow in comparison to a console, that's what requires you to have bigger buffers and bigger raw bandwidth since the latency is much bigger, even on Linux (again, for anyone that cares go watch Linus Sebastian video of everything that bottlenecked his file server for his video editors and what was the final hardware setup to warrant a 3GBps throughput). On console you can go from ssd to vram, without the cpu touching the data in between ; on pc it needs to go to ram so the cpu can decompress it and send it to vram, this takes time and resources.

Since latency is higher buffers have to be higher and thus ram has to be higher, and again the pc route asks for a copy in system ram prior to the final data in vram this is why you can't expect to create a pc with a total of 16GB between vram+ system ram performing like a ps5 will .

 

[Red Falcon]

Since I'm off work now and can link to the video, here you go, I dare you to watch the whole thing and then actually find any evidence/links to dispute any of the technical details laid out in the video. I mean, he's just a PR shill, right? Not a System Architect lead of the console or anything and I'm sure is totally incompetent compared to your vast hardware and software development background of shit-posting in console threads here, lol. Should be totally easy to dispute anything said there.

That was a damn good watch, and it answered all of the questions I had about the new SSD and tech involved with it - thank you for sharing that!
The potential capabilities this has are going to be massive, and will be a boon to the future of PC gaming as well, especially on what will now be allowed in software and games built around SSDs.

Outside of mass storage, this is going to make HDDs for general-purpose usage completely obsolete, and it is about damn time.

 

[DukenukemX]

And yet he's not a PR person and you can't refute anything he says in that presentation with any evidence to prove his findings otherwise. You'd much rather dismiss any evidence that contradicts your bad assumptions.

I'd rather have benchmarks than hearsay.

I think you've shown you can't think for yourself, as you haven't even tried to see what file system the PS4 uses and you'll never know how it works since it's proprietary and assuredly optimizes game files on the HDD for the very task of finding asset data as fast as possible.

You don't even know what the PS4 uses for a file system, but you know its proprietary and optimized for gaming? It's PFS which is based on UFS. There's a reason why Sony is working on open source projects that may improve the Playstation.

Since I'm off work now and can link to the video, here you go, I dare you to watch the whole thing and then actually find any evidence/links to dispute any of the technical details laid out in the video. I mean, he's just a PR shill, right? Not a System Architect lead of the console or anything and I'm sure is totally incompetent compared to your vast hardware and software development background of shit-posting in console threads here, lol. Should be totally easy to dispute anything said there.

I'll watch it just because I wanna see what all this is about. Gonna take me an hour since that's how long the video is. Keep in mind that the best evidence is real world benchmarks and the lack of any is always telling and concerning.

 

[Red Falcon]

I'll watch it just because I wanna see what all this is about. Gonna take me an hour since that's how long the video is. Keep in mind that the best evidence is real world benchmarks and the lack of any is always telling and concerning.

I was in the same boat of skepticism that you are before watching the video, and a lot didn't make sense to me and did seem like a lot of marketing fluff - it isn't, though.
What Mark Cerny presented makes a lot of sense, and answered all of the questions I had, and it is very much worth the watch, even for the entirety of the duration of it.

If what he says is true and comes to fruition, and we eventually get the true hardware specs on the PS5 (higher details on chipsets and designs), I do think this will not only push forward console gaming on the PS5 itself, but also PC gaming as a whole, and the way games are currently programmed to benefit from not only large RAM pools, but also with disks featuring high data transfer rates and low latency on the likes we haven't seen before (again, he goes into detail on how this works in the video).


I also agree with you that there was a lot of marketing BS with the previous generation consoles.
The PS3 Cell CPU was not a 'magical fix' and needed to be programmed for to take full advantage of, and the "cinematic experience" of the PS4 was complete marketing nonsense.

The PS5, though, really feels far more like the original PlayStation, where the performance is there, paradigm shifts are happening with gaming all-around, and the added benefits of PC gaming (both hardware and software optimizations) are going to be right around the corner - feels like the mid-90s all over again!


As far as real-world benchmarks goes, I'm hoping hackers can get Linux running on the PS5 as well, much like what was done on the PS4, so we can test those benchmarks.
One thing to keep in mind, is that if PS5 games are optimized to take advantage of the PS5 hardware, vanilla PC games on Linux may not be optimized as well, and may not take full advantage of the hardware - sometimes its snake oil, and other times it may be a true technological limitation until software is written to take advantage of it.

 

[DukenukemX]

Ok so far Mark Cerny's presentation sounds like an infomercial, which is what I expected. I like the part where he says that they're going to do the impossible and put a SSD into the PS5. He said the SSD is more like RAM. He talks about concern for the SSD size and concluded that the 840GB is the perfect size based on what gamers play and not because it was cheaper. So Kraken is a new but not new file format that developers were already using and they built it into their hardware. So what if there's a newer better format? He did give Spiderman as an example for how files are used often in the PS4 but that still seems like the result of developers being lazy to me.

Ok so half way through the video he starts talking about the GPU and how Sony didn't just take PC hardware and make it into a console. Sure.... Now he's talking about how TFLOPs and CUs don't matter very much. This has nothing to do with the Xbox Series X being more powerful what so ever. I like how they're boasting about backwards compatibility using PC hardware. ALMOST all PS4 games are playable at launch. Ray Tracing will be extremely memory intensive. Yea, PS5 games will certainly get bigger. Guys remember, "A rising tide floats all boats". "Personally I feel a game is dead without audio." It just gets better. Ok now he's saying the PS3 had amazing easy to work with audio through the SPEs. Has this idiot seen what's needed just to say Hello World on those things? Ok, he gets +1 for Dead Space. I wanna see more Dead Space games. Ok, he's now comparing the GPU to be SPU like. This guy has a hard on for the PS3 hardware.

So yea, the video is a waste of time. I learned nothing new and it sounded like an infomercial about the amaziness of the PS5. Let me know when they have examples. Especially of 3rd party games that are available on PC so we can compare.

 

[Red Falcon]

I learned nothing new

That's obvious.
You completely missed, or just simply refuse to accept, the part about how games are going to be built around using the high-speed SSD - this has not been done for any game to this point; in before you say "but games can run on SSDs already" - like, no shit they benefit from SSDs, but they aren't optimized to take advantage of them.

He said the SSD is more like RAM.

That is exactly the way games are going to be programmed to take advantage of it - essentially, as a fast cache to load textures and game assets.
In a way, it will almost act like a fast SWAP partition, rather than a traditional disk, even though it is a traditional disk; software has to be optimized to take advantage of this, and this isn't an out-of-the-box function.

I like how they're boasting about backwards compatibility using PC hardware.

This isn't fucking "PC hardware", it is a proprietary computer platform that happens to use an x86-64 CPU and Radeon GPU - holy shit, are you for real???
It really, really, feels like you are trying to tear down the PS5 because it's specs far outpace the computers you have, and you just can't accept that a "lowly" console could ever possibly be better than the equipment you are running - this is the bottom-line with you, and it has become beyond annoying in these threads.

The computer doesn't make the individual, and having a powerful computer does not equate to having knowledge on such things.

Ok now he's saying the PS3 had amazing easy to work with audio through the SPEs. Has this idiot seen what's needed just to say Hello World on those things?

Just because the SPE units had a complex design, and required additional coding, didn't mean they weren't good at audio processing.
The SPE units were also excellent at performing NVIDIA PhysX functions, especially in an era when x86/x86-64 CPUs were not particularly good, nor efficient, at such tasks.

I trust Mark Cerny on these subjects any day over your nonsensical opinion on them.
Take it from someone who is currently running a PS3 Linux cluster - you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

This guy has a hard on for the PS3 hardware.

Says the guy with a hard-on for PC hardware.

So yea, the video is a waste of time.

Oh, you mean like your bullshit posts?
I can't believe I am actually defending Sony, of all companies, from your nonsense - SMH, you give PC gamers a bad name.

 

[T4rd]

Ok so far Mark Cerny's presentation sounds like an infomercial, which is what I expected. I like the part where he says that they're going to do the impossible and put a SSD into the PS5. He said the SSD is more like RAM. He talks about concern for the SSD size and concluded that the 840GB is the perfect size based on what gamers play and not because it was cheaper. So Kraken is a new but not new file format that developers were already using and they built it into their hardware. So what if there's a newer better format? He did give Spiderman as an example for how files are used often in the PS4 but that still seems like the result of developers being lazy to me.

Ok so half way through the video he starts talking about the GPU and how Sony didn't just take PC hardware and make it into a console. Sure.... Now he's talking about how TFLOPs and CUs don't matter very much. This has nothing to do with the Xbox Series X being more powerful what so ever. I like how they're boasting about backwards compatibility using PC hardware. ALMOST all PS4 games are playable at launch. Ray Tracing will be extremely memory intensive. Yea, PS5 games will certainly get bigger. Guys remember, "A rising tide floats all boats". "Personally I feel a game is dead without audio." It just gets better. Ok now he's saying the PS3 had amazing easy to work with audio through the SPEs. Has this idiot seen what's needed just to say Hello World on those things? Ok, he gets +1 for Dead Space. I wanna see more Dead Space games. Ok, he's now comparing the GPU to be SPU like. This guy has a hard on for the PS3 hardware.

So yea, the video is a waste of time. I learned nothing new and it sounded like an infomercial about the amaziness of the PS5. Let me know when they have examples. Especially of 3rd party games that are available on PC so we can compare.

Well I rarely have to pull this vid out, but you've earned it, congrats, lol.



You're lucky we don't have any sort of karma/credibility system on this forum.. your shit would be way in the negatives. It's pretty bad when even the PCMR guys here are calling you on your BS.

 

[Revdarian]

And he hasn't bothered to read all the developers giving testimonial that it actually is a big deal, or the video of Linus Sebastian admitting that he was wrong about the i/o stack.

The poster is full on ignorant about how things work on a regular pc, how slow they are due to how much bureaucracy there is ("proper procedure" due to current industry standards for a general purpose system) and unwilling to learn. He is the epitome of the bad faith poster, or the most impressive example of the Dunning-Kruger, aka his ability /understanding is so low that he thinks he is an expert in the field.

 

[kac77]

Well I rarely have to pull this vid out, but you've earned it, congrats, lol.



You're lucky we don't have any sort of karma/credibility system on this forum.. your shit would be way in the negatives. It's pretty bad when even the PCMR guys here are calling you on your BS.

I forgot all about this video. Thank you.

 

[kac77]

And he hasn't bothered to read all the developers giving testimonial that it actually is a big deal, or the video of Linus Sebastian admitting that he was wrong about the i/o stack.

The poster is full on ignorant about how things work on a regular pc, how slow they are due to how much bureaucracy there is ("proper procedure" due to current industry standards for a general purpose system) and unwilling to learn. He is the epitome of the bad faith poster, or the most impressive example of the Dunning-Kruger, aka his ability /understanding is so low that he thinks he is an expert in the field.

Well at least you didn't have to break out basic 2nd grade math to prove your point..lol

 

[next-Jin]

lol y’all getting trolled something fierce.

On topic though, this is way more exciting than last gen. The only thing different last gen was different amounts of SPUs, clocks and CUs with a different memory arrangement. This gen has all that plus a new variable clock setup for PS5 vs locked on XSX, vastly different I/O setup and different approach to game design with MS focusing on cross gen and Sony making the fresh leap.

Digital Foundry will have their work cut out for them and unlike last gen I’m not entirely sure who will win (at least in the US, Canada and UK).

 

[DukenukemX]

That's obvious.
You completely missed, or just simply refuse to accept, the part about how games are going to be built around using the high-speed SSD - this has not been done for any game to this point; in before you say "but games can run on SSDs already" - like, no shit they benefit from SSDs, but they aren't optimized to take advantage of them.

I feel the "optimized" just means that we just don't get loading screens or much of any. If you used Switch or smart phone then you've been playing games using NAND flash. I get that the PS5 might be faster on average than your typical PC or Xbox Series X but realistically you won't see a difference on PC or Xbox Series X. Remember that games of that generation will still be made for the lowest common dominator and that may or maybe be the Xbox Series X.

That is exactly the way games are going to be programmed to take advantage of it - essentially, as a fast cache to load textures and game assets.
In a way, it will almost act like a fast SWAP partition, rather than a traditional disk, even though it is a traditional disk; software has to be optimized to take advantage of this, and this isn't an out-of-the-box function.

I feel that's a loaded statement that he didn't put much thought into. If the PS5 is going to use a M.2 drive along with the built in 840GB storage then it isn't going to act like ram. It'll be fast but not that fast.

This isn't fucking "PC hardware", it is a proprietary computer platform that happens to use an x86-64 CPU and Radeon GPU - holy shit, are you for real???

I give it three years before someone gets Linux running on the not PC that is the PS5. Not just booting the OS but running Steam as well.

It really, really, feels like you are trying to tear down the PS5 because it's specs far outpace the computers you have, and you just can't accept that a "lowly" console could ever possibly be better than the equipment you are running - this is the bottom-line with you, and it has become beyond annoying in these threads.

Please, I shit on anything that I'm skeptical of. Honestly it feels like a number of you are working for Sony as you seem to defend any sort of criticism thrown at them. They're not reinventing the wheel here, they're just putting into a box shaped like a router. I mean 3D audio, seriously? Microsoft has Ray Traced Audio on the Xbox Series X which just sounds like the marketing department was snorting up crushed discs of Halo Reach and just used the latest buzz word to advertise. Think for yourself, learn to detect bullshit. Until you see the PS5 working and loading up games I would take anything said about the PS5 with a huge grain of salt. Sony is a business and any business will say anything to make money.

The computer doesn't make the individual, and having a powerful computer does not equate to having knowledge on such things.

You seriously think I have a powerful computer? I don't deal much in fast computers, as I'm the person who's putting Linux on 10 year old machines because I feel it breaths new life into them. I'm not the guy who buys a $2k computer and installs Windows because I feel I'm original.

Just because the SPE units had a complex design, and required additional coding, didn't mean they weren't good at audio processing.

I didn't say that, I said that they weren't easy to work on. Something that needs 144 lines of code to say Hell World is not easy. He said it was easy.

The SPE units were also excellent at performing NVIDIA PhysX functions, especially in an era when x86/x86-64 CPUs were not particularly good, nor efficient, at such tasks.

Yea, that's why a $50 CPU today can emulate the PS3. Also why it took years before the PS3 looked better than the 360 in games.

I trust Mark Cerny on these subjects any day over your nonsensical opinion on them.
Take it from someone who is currently running a PS3 Linux cluster - you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

Did GeoHot help you with that? Because Sony took that away from you.

Says the guy with a hard-on for PC hardware.

Look at the forum dude. This isn't a console forum. Kotaku is this way. Plenty of console hard-ons over there.

Oh, you mean like your bullshit posts?
I can't believe I am actually defending Sony, of all companies, from your nonsense - SMH, you give PC gamers a bad name.

Like your opinion matters when I'm right in the end. Oh look, Apple is dumping x86 for ARM and I got criticized for suggesting they would do that a year ago.

 

[Nobu]

I feel the "optimized" just means that we just don't get loading screens or much of any. If you used Switch or smart phone then you've been playing games using NAND flash. I get that the PS5 might be faster on average than your typical PC or Xbox Series X but realistically you won't see a difference on PC or Xbox Series X. Remember that games of that generation will still be made for the lowest common dominator and that may or maybe be the Xbox Series X.

I feel that's a loaded statement that he didn't put much thought into. If the PS5 is going to use a M.2 drive along with the built in 840GB storage then it isn't going to act like ram. It'll be fast but not that fast.

I give it three years before someone gets Linux running on the not PC that is the PS5. Not just booting the OS but running Steam as well.

Please, I shit on anything that I'm skeptical of. Honestly it feels like a number of you are working for Sony as you seem to defend any sort of criticism thrown at them. They're not reinventing the wheel here, they're just putting into a box shaped like a router. I mean 3D audio, seriously? Microsoft has Ray Traced Audio on the Xbox Series X which just sounds like the marketing department was snorting up crushed discs of Halo Reach and just used the latest buzz word to advertise. Think for yourself, learn to detect bullshit. Until you see the PS5 working and loading up games I would take anything said about the PS5 with a huge grain of salt. Sony is a business and any business will say anything to make money.

You seriously think I have a powerful computer? I don't deal much in fast computers, as I'm the person who's putting Linux on 10 year old machines because I feel it breaths new life into them. I'm not the guy who buys a $2k computer and installs Windows because I feel I'm original.

I didn't say that, I said that they weren't easy to work on. Something that needs 144 lines of code to say Hell World is not easy. He said it was easy.

Yea, that's why a $50 CPU today can emulate the PS3. Also why it took years before the PS3 looked better than the 360 in games.


Did GeoHot help you with that? Because Sony took that away from you.

Look at the forum dude. This isn't a console forum. Kotaku is this way. Plenty of console hard-ons over there.

Like your opinion matters when I'm right in the end. Oh look, Apple is dumping x86 for ARM and I got criticized for suggesting they would do that a year ago.

To be fair, in this case he's talking about a specific use of the cell processor (audio, not general processing a la "printf(hello world)"). Sony probably has builtins which make audio processing easier on the PS3, or else the interface is such that building your own libraries to do more advanced things than outputting a single tone for four seconds, easier.

 

[Red Falcon]

I feel the "optimized" just means that we just don't get loading screens or much of any. If you used Switch or smart phone then you've been playing games using NAND flash. I get that the PS5 might be faster on average than your typical PC or Xbox Series X but realistically you won't see a difference on PC or Xbox Series X. Remember that games of that generation will still be made for the lowest common dominator and that may or maybe be the Xbox Series X.

I feel that's a loaded statement that he didn't put much thought into. If the PS5 is going to use a M.2 drive along with the built in 840GB storage then it isn't going to act like ram. It'll be fast but not that fast.

I give it three years before someone gets Linux running on the not PC that is the PS5. Not just booting the OS but running Steam as well.

Please, I shit on anything that I'm skeptical of. Honestly it feels like a number of you are working for Sony as you seem to defend any sort of criticism thrown at them. They're not reinventing the wheel here, they're just putting into a box shaped like a router. I mean 3D audio, seriously? Microsoft has Ray Traced Audio on the Xbox Series X which just sounds like the marketing department was snorting up crushed discs of Halo Reach and just used the latest buzz word to advertise. Think for yourself, learn to detect bullshit. Until you see the PS5 working and loading up games I would take anything said about the PS5 with a huge grain of salt. Sony is a business and any business will say anything to make money.

You seriously think I have a powerful computer? I don't deal much in fast computers, as I'm the person who's putting Linux on 10 year old machines because I feel it breaths new life into them. I'm not the guy who buys a $2k computer and installs Windows because I feel I'm original.

I didn't say that, I said that they weren't easy to work on. Something that needs 144 lines of code to say Hell World is not easy. He said it was easy.

Yea, that's why a $50 CPU today can emulate the PS3. Also why it took years before the PS3 looked better than the 360 in games.


Did GeoHot help you with that? Because Sony took that away from you.

Look at the forum dude. This isn't a console forum. Kotaku is this way. Plenty of console hard-ons over there.

Like your opinion matters when I'm right in the end. Oh look, Apple is dumping x86 for ARM and I got criticized for suggesting they would do that a year ago.

Rough translation: