PS5 - The Future of Gaming | The Power of V

[kac77]

In case you have not seen it, here is a deep dive in Anandtech:

https://www.anandtech.com/show/15848/storage-matters-xbox-ps5-new-era-of-gaming

I've read it. It's really drivel because it completely misses the power of consoles.

 

[TheToE!]

locked the system down so they can resell you everything as a digital copy.

Which is why I haven't bought a console since the xbox360. I really hope Sony does this, I have a feeling they won't..

 

[SeymourGore]

Stealing this image from Twitter. Seems like an accurate sizing chart (based on USB and optical drive). Just by the size of the unit, I'm expecting some quiet-ish cooling.

 

[GameLifter]

Stealing this image from Twitter. Seems like an accurate sizing chart (based on USB and optical drive). Just by the size of the unit, I'm expecting some quiet-ish cooling.

View attachment 253222

I'm glad to see that it's going to be huge. Should help with cooling and noise.

 

[Mode13]

Holy toledo didn't realize it came out that big. Much bigger than my ITX htpc

 

[next-Jin]

Why would they put it on the GPU VRAM?

As far as I know the PS5 has replaceable SSD, so you can replace it or upgrade it. That means it's using the same SSD's us PC users have been using. You can't make SSD's faster unless the SSD itself is faster. As far as I know what Sony did was make a ASIC controller that can decompress data super quick. Feel free to tell me how it achieves this amazing thing that people can't describe. Usually if it can't be explained to me in simple words then it isn't anywhere near as amazing as people think it is. Marketing loves to make things vague so people don't fully understand what's going on. Remember the Sega Genesis "BLAST PROCESSING"? It's a real thing, that nobody used and was unusable for games. Nobody knew what this was, only that Sega had it and Nintendo didn't.

View attachment 253188


Yea, and I assure you that PS5 games will all have loading times because 12GB is still 12GB. Sony is describing what you'll see once the game is finished loading and from that point forward you'll never see a loading screen. Probably because the PS5 has twice as much ram and a SSD, not because Sony sprinkled some of that Cell Emotion Engine magic that clearly never worked.

Yea, and that's why emulators are created because that's usually bullshit. A HDD can't perform like a SSD but with enough ram and careful programming you get one loading screen per play secession and nothing else. The more ram you have the more you can cache the data while the game is working.

It’s not just the SSD though, it’s the entire software stack, controller and the actual SSD. They use 12 channels and iirc normal desktop drives use fewer. That can (and will) be changed in the future, I have no doubt PCs will get that.

My point is this is a fully custom I/O design. Windows doesn’t support it and no SSD manufacturer to my knowledge can bypass the overhead with all of that on PCs.

That type of change will take Intel/AMD, Microsoft and motherboard manufacturers to work out new standards.

Just like our PCs have to brute force ports of games usually, PCs will likely have to brute force that type of bandwidth. Cerny claims 5.5 uncompressed and close to 10 compressed.

You can see it now, load up a game and do the math. It’s not a 1:1 ratio with game loads on SSD vs Spinners and especially SATA vs NVMe drives where there’s almost no difference.

That’s all I’m saying. If a game developer wants to set the minimum requirement to be an PCIE 3 or 4 SSD then we can have a valuable comparison.

 

[next-Jin]

I'm glad to see that it's going to be huge. Should help with cooling and noise.

I’m not sure, it looks to be very difficult to clean. Just using some canned air won’t cut it especially if they are using a radial fan (which is almost certain).

It might be quiet at first but give it a few months. This is why I love the Series X design. Very easy to clean and disassemble.

 

[GameLifter]

I’m not sure, it looks to be very difficult to clean. Just using some canned air won’t cut it especially if they are using a radial fan (which is almost certain).

It might be quiet at first but give it a few months. This is why I love the Series X design. Very easy to clean and disassemble.

True, I didn't think about dust build up. I prefer the design of the Series X as well.

 

[cybereality]

PS5 has got to be the ugliest console in recent memory, but I'll still get one.

Maybe they'll make after-market case replacements. That thing just looks whack.

 

[SeymourGore]

I bet PS5 Slim will look gorgeous.

I just hope it feels premium. I liked the look of the base PS4 but touching the thing - it felt 'creaky' and cheap.

 

[cybereality]

Yeah, I liked the PS4 design but it did feel rather cheap.

 

[Nolan7689]

PS4 felt like a downgrade compared to the monolithic and glossy PS3 (but fuck, what wouldn’t) but doesn’t seem that much cheaper than the PS2. A little more flex and creaks but doesn’t feel like “shit this might break if I squeeze it”

 

[Earley]

The way I see it is that a lot of games simply won't need the super fast storage of the PS5 to function properly. Not every game is going to be designed as a massive open world game. With these games, the storage solutions on current PCs and the Series X will be adequate and not cause a bottleneck for their superior GPUs which will give them the performance advantage.

It's true that there may be virtually no difference at first, and it may even just come down to half a dozen mega titles that are absolutely cornerstones. The talk about 8K authoring in unreal engine 5 makes me hopeful they'll get ambitious.

 

[GameLifter]

It's true that there may be virtually no difference at first, and it may even just come down to half a dozen mega titles that are absolutely cornerstones. The talk about 8K authoring in unreal engine 5 makes me hopeful they'll get ambitious.

I think the majority of games will work fine on the SSD in the Series X as well as the SSDs that you can get for PCs today. As for Unreal Engine 5, it's going to be scalable so we could see games use it to it's full potential on PS5 but then be scaled back on Series X and PCs. This won't be all bad since said games would then run at higher frame rates on the Series X and PCs with powerful GPUs.

 

[Gamerdad]

I get them all, I don't really play favorites. I like to collect them and never sell them. I usually purchase the Playstation last which was great this time because I ended up getting the pro, but this time around I may get it first. It all depends on when Gran Turismo releases.

 

[Hornet]

I wouldn't call it very futuristic, but I do like the PS5 design.

I just hope the white parts won't turn yellow after several years. I keep all my consoles

 

[staknhalo]

Design doesn't bother me. I prefer boring plain boxes, but I'm not looking at the device either way. I'm looking at the screen. Same reason I don't care about RGB in PCs. It's a computer, not a 98 Honda Civic. But whatever.

 

[DukenukemX]

Emulator?!? What emulator? From the PS2 era?!? PS3?!? You're not even talking sense.

There will be a PS4 emulator. Who will make it and when will it be made is a different question. There is a working PS3 and Switch emulator for a while now.

No emulated game currently is at the level of today's games.

You need to pay attention to what's happening in the world of emulators.

What?!? Lol more RAM?!?

Yes, more ram. The more ram you have the more developers can load the next level into memory while you play the game. So instead of long elevator rides which is really just a loading screen, you just continue playing.

since windows PCs are going this direction anyways, it seems like the real big advantage a console will have for gamers is price and ease of use?

Pricing and ease of use are both misconceptions of console advantages. Sure a console is cheaper up front, but 5-7 years later that console is going to cost more than an expensive gaming PC. Monthly fees to play games online and more expensive games means you'll spend more money on that console than a PC built in the same era. Also, if you can't use a Windows PC then you're too old to be playing games.

but PCs are faster and can be upgraded and the total hardware cost will be 3-4x that of the console over the console’s lifespan, so you can play console ports at higher resolutions and frame rates, so there’s that.

There's a lot more to PC gaming than just higher frame rates and resolutions. PC gaming is responsible for mods that turned into their own games like Counter Strike and DOTA2. PC gaming is the reason why indie games exist like Undertale and Hollow Knight. PC gaming is why Half Life Alyx exists. PC gaming is where you can play Zelda Breath of the Wild as Steve from Minecraft with a Sponge Bob shield and Thomas the Tank is your mount.

 

[DukenukemX]

They weren't competing with mobile phones back then like they are now.

Keep in mind that what happened to mobile consoles will eventually happen to home consoles. The smart phone which on average costs more than a 3DS or Vita has destroyed mobile console gaming. A smart phone which runs Android or iOS that can do other things besides play games. Eventually the same will happen to home consoles as PC gaming will destroy their market in time.

I expect Nintendo to either exit hardware entirely and sell software to the mobile market, or go for broke and get into the VR gamespace.

I doubt Nintendo will go after VR gaming. The reason I think Nintendo will still make hardware is because 3rd party games on the Switch are making them good money. So I feel Nintendo will still pursue hardware for at least a Switch Pro. Beyond a Switch Pro depends if Nintendo has the balls to go up against Sony and Microsoft, because for a while Nintendo is afraid to compete directly against these two companies.

It’s not just the SSD though, it’s the entire software stack, controller and the actual SSD. They use 12 channels and iirc normal desktop drives use fewer. That can (and will) be changed in the future, I have no doubt PCs will get that.

Keep in mind that Sony's custom controller can access UP TO 9GB/sec. That doesn't mean it will transfer speeds at 9GB/sec. No NVME SSD works that fast. You're only as fast as your weakest link. The fastest SSD I'm aware of is 4.4GB/sec, and that's one expensive SSD. I really doubt Sony is going to put an expensive SSD in a PS5. These are the same people that claim Blu-ray disc games will install blindingly fast due to this feature on the PS5. You seriously can't smell the bullshit?

My point is this is a fully custom I/O design. Windows doesn’t support it and no SSD manufacturer to my knowledge can bypass the overhead with all of that on PCs.

A Windows update can fix that. Also, why wouldn't a PCI-E card inserted into your PC do what the PS5 does? Assuming that anyone makes such a thing. Keep in mind that if such a thing was needed then the PC enterprise industry would have created it long ago.

That type of change will take Intel/AMD, Microsoft and motherboard manufacturers to work out new standards.

Again, why a motherboard feature is needed? Why can't this be done on PCI-E 4.0, like Sony is doing?

That’s all I’m saying. If a game developer wants to set the minimum requirement to be an PCIE 3 or 4 SSD then we can have a valuable comparison.

If Sony puts up load times of the PS5 for a game that's available on PC then we can have a valuable comparison. Until then I call bullshit.

 

[IdiotInCharge]

It’s not just the SSD though, it’s the entire software stack, controller and the actual SSD. They use 12 channels and iirc normal desktop drives use fewer. That can (and will) be changed in the future, I have no doubt PCs will get that.

My point is this is a fully custom I/O design. Windows doesn’t support it and no SSD manufacturer to my knowledge can bypass the overhead with all of that on PCs.

Really not much to this though, aside from developers actually coding for NVMe outright. As for 12 channel NVMe controllers... not a big deal really. Could just stripe a pair (or more) NVMe SSDs and exceed that bandwidth outright if needed. As for the stack... that's pretty straightforward.

That type of change will take Intel/AMD, Microsoft and motherboard manufacturers to work out new standards.

They're all using NVMe

Just like our PCs have to brute force ports of games usually, PCs will likely have to brute force that type of bandwidth. Cerny claims 5.5 uncompressed and close to 10 compressed..

5.5 is what current PCIe 4.0 NVMe SSDs do, and they're really just PCIe 3.0 SSDs with hot-clocked controllers.

You can see it now, load up a game and do the math. It’s not a 1:1 ratio with game loads on SSD vs Spinners and especially SATA vs NVMe drives where there’s almost no difference.

Generally because they're not coded to make use of a difference in storage performance; there is one, but it's usually inconsequential, and a large part of it has more to do with latency than outright bandwidth. Even spinners aren't 'slow' when it comes to sustained transfer rates!

That’s all I’m saying. If a game developer wants to set the minimum requirement to be an PCIE 3 or 4 SSD then we can have a valuable comparison.

More like allowing for quick world transitions and zone streaming with a toggle and a recommendation to use it with NVMe or face weird performance issues (or include a gut-check benchmark before allowing it to be enabled).


Overall, I don't want to be too pessimistic -- the work being done across the industry here is going to bear fruit everywhere. The last consoles ran on spinners, after all, as do many desktop and even laptop gaming PCs even today, so that has had to be taken into account, and the benefits of developers taking into account the possibilities of NVMe SSDs at the beginning of a console cycle are going to reverberate.

I just don't think that coding for the hardware is that terribly groundbreaking. What Sony is accomplishing here isn't innovation, it's good marketing.

 

[Deleted member 89018]

Pricing and ease of use are both misconceptions of console advantages. Sure a console is cheaper up front, but 5-7 years later that console is going to cost more than an expensive gaming PC. Monthly fees to play games online and more expensive games means you'll spend more money on that console than a PC built in the same era. Also, if you can't use a Windows PC then you're too old to be playing games.

Pcmr nonsense aside, I’ll take the bait. $400 console plus 7 years of a subscription that averages $60/yr. So you could build a PC for less than $820 that will run for 7 years and you’ll be happy without ever upgrading it? That’s great!

if you want to talk about misconceptions, “more expensive games” is a good one. You can get games for a couple of bucks on PSN or XBlive if you wait for sales, just like you can on Steam or other services. That $60/yr subscription usually gets you 2-3 games a month for free too. For instance, here's a list of the 309 games you would have gotten for free, for ever, if you'd maintained an xbox live subscription since 2013:

https://xbox.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_Games_with_Gold

Ultimately the price of the games is basically break even between PC / console the two platforms, unless you only buy for PC when they’re on sale but buy immediately on release for console.

for ease of use - I realize where I am so of course you’re going to think using a windows PC is easier than loading a game on a console. Assuming you use something like steam big picture mode it’s basically the same. Also assuming you don’t need to update drivers for crashes on your video card, run driver cleaner, realize ryzen master is getting interference from gigabyte app center, switch your icue software to an old version of ilink so it stops messing with your system fans, and then remember whether the game you want to play is actually in your steam library, or if its in origin, uplay, gog, epic, or battle net. And then the copy protection they added after the fact won't let you play single player unless you accept the install of denuvo or whatever.

Meanwhile, on the console side, you buy the console, plug it in, turn it on, download your game and click play. Maybe there's a restart in there for a firmware update.

I use PCs all day long for work. I’m one of those nutballs who runs Ubuntu on his home PCs - and I do occasionally play games on it - but I just got tired of the system setup dance. Every time I set up a new system it was... install four launchers. Download the games I’m still playing. I don’t remember which store I bought this one at, check all the libraries to find it and download it. This one crashes on my new GPU, I’ll switch back to my other one until they fix it. Blah blah blah.

There's a lot more to PC gaming than just higher frame rates and resolutions. PC gaming is responsible for mods that turned into their own games like Counter Strike and DOTA2. PC gaming is the reason why indie games exist like Undertale and Hollow Knight. PC gaming is why Half Life Alyx exists. PC gaming is where you can play Zelda Breath of the Wild as Steve from Minecraft with a Sponge Bob shield and Thomas the Tank is your mount.

Yes, you are right. The strength of the windows pc as a gaming platform is in the sheer variety of things you can do with it. But to a lot of people this is also a weakness. they just want to click play and play - they don’t care about mods because when they finish Skyrim the first time, that’s it. They will never go back to it again. I don't even know the point of some of the mods you're talking about, but I guess if you really like Shrek and want to go to the trouble of getting a Wii U emulator running Breath of the Wild so you can play as him instead, and you get something out of it personally, that's great! Most people just want to play Breath of the Wild.

ugh. This is the same argument over and over again. PC gaming and console gaming are not the same thing. Don’t fool yourself into thinking PCs are cheaper when you are out there buying a $800 video card and then putting $200 worth of copper on it for a custom water cooling loop every other year. You are comparing apples to toothpaste.

 

[vegeta535]

Pcmr nonsense aside, I’ll take the bait. $400 console plus 7 years of a subscription that averages $60/yr. So you could build a PC for less than $820 that will run for 7 years and you’ll be happy without ever upgrading it? That’s great!

if you want to talk about misconceptions, “more expensive games” is a good one. You can get games for a couple of bucks on PSN or XBlive if you wait for sales, just like you can on Steam or other services. That $60/yr subscription usually gets you 2-3 games a month for free too. For instance, here's a list of the 309 games you would have gotten for free, for ever, if you'd maintained an xbox live subscription since 2013:

https://xbox.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_Games_with_Gold

Ultimately the price of the games is basically break even between PC / console the two platforms, unless you only buy for PC when they’re on sale but buy immediately on release for console.

for ease of use - I realize where I am so of course you’re going to think using a windows PC is easier than loading a game on a console. Assuming you use something like steam big picture mode it’s basically the same. Also assuming you don’t need to update drivers for crashes on your video card, run driver cleaner, realize ryzen master is getting interference from gigabyte app center, switch your icue software to an old version of ilink so it stops messing with your system fans, and then remember whether the game you want to play is actually in your steam library, or if its in origin, uplay, gog, epic, or battle net. And then the copy protection they added after the fact won't let you play single player unless you accept the install of denuvo or whatever.

Meanwhile, on the console side, you buy the console, plug it in, turn it on, download your game and click play. Maybe there's a restart in there for a firmware update.

I use PCs all day long for work. I’m one of those nutballs who runs Ubuntu on his home PCs - and I do occasionally play games on it - but I just got tired of the system setup dance. Every time I set up a new system it was... install four launchers. Download the games I’m still playing. I don’t remember which store I bought this one at, check all the libraries to find it and download it. This one crashes on my new GPU, I’ll switch back to my other one until they fix it. Blah blah blah.



Yes, you are right. The strength of the windows pc as a gaming platform is in the sheer variety of things you can do with it. But to a lot of people this is also a weakness. they just want to click play and play - they don’t care about mods because when they finish Skyrim the first time, that’s it. They will never go back to it again. I don't even know the point of some of the mods you're talking about, but I guess if you really like Shrek and want to go to the trouble of getting a Wii U emulator running Breath of the Wild so you can play as him instead, and you get something out of it personally, that's great! Most people just want to play Breath of the Wild.

ugh. This is the same argument over and over again. PC gaming and console gaming are not the same thing. Don’t fool yourself into thinking PCs are cheaper when you are out there buying a $800 video card and then putting $200 worth of copper on it for a custom water cooling loop every other year. You are comparing apples to toothpaste.

Physical games can be found for under $40 new after a month release. Then you have the use market that can get even cheaper.

 

[DukenukemX]

Pcmr nonsense aside, I’ll take the bait. $400 console plus 7 years of a subscription that averages $60/yr. So you could build a PC for less than $820 that will run for 7 years and you’ll be happy without ever upgrading it? That’s great!

My cousin got himself a hand me down computer with a Intel 4790K and a GTX 970. About as old as a PS4 and he's super happy to have it. He was shocked to learn the computer is about 6 years old. I delidded the 4790K and put Yuzu on his PC and now he's enjoying Doom Eternal and some Switch games. That's pretty impressive for 6 year old hardware. A person with a Intel 2500K and a Radeon R9 290 would be equally as happy today.

if you want to talk about misconceptions, “more expensive games” is a good one. You can get games for a couple of bucks on PSN or XBlive if you wait for sales, just like you can on Steam or other services. That $60/yr subscription usually gets you 2-3 games a month for free too. For instance, here's a list of the 309 games you would have gotten for free, for ever, if you'd maintained an xbox live subscription since 2013:

https://xbox.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_Games_with_Gold

Ultimately the price of the games is basically break even between PC / console the two platforms, unless you only buy for PC when they’re on sale but buy immediately on release for console.

Cheap old indie games are cheap everywhere. I'm talking about relatively new games that just got released. Keep in mind that on PC you have multiple choices when it comes to where you buy your games digitally, but not on consoles. That means nobody is competing for your money. Consoles are essentially an oligopoly. It's only an issue on PC when a 3rd party game is exclusive to a store, like Epic usually is doing lately.

Also assuming you don’t need to update drivers for crashes on your video card, run driver cleaner, realize ryzen master is getting interference from gigabyte app center, switch your icue software to an old version of ilink so it stops messing with your system fans, and then remember whether the game you want to play is actually in your steam library, or if its in origin, uplay, gog, epic, or battle net. And then the copy protection they added after the fact won't let you play single player unless you accept the install of denuvo or whatever.

Meanwhile, on the console side, you buy the console, plug it in, turn it on, download your game and click play. Maybe there's a restart in there for a firmware update.

For PC you listed everything that can go wrong, but on console you listed the best possible scenario. I know for a fact that the PS4 can take hours to download and install updates, and things do go wrong. Ideally you should be able to plug it in, turn it on, and click play. Ideally on PC you should be able to plug it in, turn it on, and click play. Also owning Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft consoles is just as confusing as Origin, Uplay, and Epic. I could use RROD or the PS4's blinking blue light of death. If PC's where that bad then why aren't we using consoles? Because you're reaching.

I use PCs all day long for work. I’m one of those nutballs who runs Ubuntu on his home PCs - and I do occasionally play games on it -

Linux Mint right here. Looking forward to Mint 20.

but I just got tired of the system setup dance. Every time I set up a new system it was... install four launchers. Download the games I’m still playing. I don’t remember which store I bought this one at, check all the libraries to find it and download it. This one crashes on my new GPU, I’ll switch back to my other one until they fix it. Blah blah blah.

Installing four launchers is a problem for you, but not installing Ubuntu? Figuring out which console you bought Skyrim for isn't is a problem, but finding a game from four launchers is a problem? That's a problem I'd rather have honestly. We all wish Netflix was the only video streaming service, but now Disney made Disney+ and Amazon is getting in on this as well. It's called competition and it's usually good for the consumer. If Sony asked for $70 for a game you'd have no choice, because a PS4 has only one store.

Yes, you are right. The strength of the windows pc as a gaming platform is in the sheer variety of things you can do with it. But to a lot of people this is also a weakness. they just want to click play and play - they don’t care about mods because when they finish Skyrim the first time, that’s it. They will never go back to it again.

You don't have to do any of the things I've shown, but at the same time you do have the option. Consoles don't even humor the option.

I don't even know the point of some of the mods you're talking about, but I guess if you really like Shrek and want to go to the trouble of getting a Wii U emulator running Breath of the Wild so you can play as him instead, and you get something out of it personally, that's great! Most people just want to play Breath of the Wild.

How about these mods? The point is you can do whatever you want.

PC gaming and console gaming are not the same thing.

They aren't, because PC is clearly better.

Don’t fool yourself into thinking PCs are cheaper when you are out there buying a $800 video card and then putting $200 worth of copper on it for a custom water cooling loop every other year. You are comparing apples to toothpaste.

Firstly, and I'm gonna piss off a lot of people here saying this, but if you bought a $800 graphics card then you made a mistake. If you paid $200 to put a water block on it, then you made an even worse mistake. Generally whatever the extra cost of the water block adds then you're better off buying the next tier up GPU. I wouldn't buy a Radeon 5700 and water block it when I can buy a Radeon 5700 XT for better performance and for less money than adding a water block. Also, anything higher than $400 is going to have diminished returns. Chances are whatever Nvidia and AMD are going to release this year or next year will be worlds better than your RTX 2080 or whatever. If you bought a GTX 1080 Ti years ago for $800 then your investment can't do Ray-Tracing like a RTX 2060 for $300.

The people who buy $800 graphic cards are the same people who bought a Borla muffler for their car. They have money to burn and don't know where to spend it. That's right, I piss off both the console peasants and the PC gamers.

 

[Deleted member 89018]

Sigh. There are so many delusional PCMR types here these days. I mean I know this is [H] but there used to be a time when threads about consoles didn’t involve so much acrobatics trying to claim one was better than another, and were just people excited to play games.

I’m not here trying to claim one is better than the other, but the continued delusion so many people here have that a PC is somehow cheaper than a console is hilarious. I know the PC has strengths that you don’t find on consoles, and you can upgrade the bejeezus out of one if you really want / can afford it, and you can’t run mods or cheats or upgrade a console. That’s not the point.

the point is that even your friend’s 4790k / 970 build would have cost more than a console at the time, and the cost of games is a wash, so please stop claiming that a PC is somehow cheaper.

Cheap old indie games are cheap everywhere. I'm talking about relatively new games that just got released.

Games go on sale on consoles same as they do on PC, and PC games are just as expensive at release as console games (fitting since so many of them are ports these says) but dismissing that list as “cheap old indie games” makes me think you might have not actually looked at it to see what has been given away for free with that $60/yr subscription?

For PC you listed everything that can go wrong, but on console you listed the best possible scenario.
[...]
If PC's where that bad then why aren't we using consoles? Because you're reaching.

ha! That’s hardly everything that can go wrong, on either side. But you’re also, like a lot of pcmr typeslooking at it as an either/or. You refuse to acknowledge it’s possible for console games and PC games to coexist, so you take your chosen platform and call it superior, when the point is that they’re not even comparable other than “you play games on it.”

I’m not reaching for anything here - you think I’m saying consoles are better than PC so you are interpreting my examples as an attack on the PC. Sure a console can fail too, but no one is going to refuse to RMA your Xbox because you used RAM that wasn’t on the QVL, or ask you to just install another processor to verify the motherboard is bad first. With the flexibility of the PC comes a significantly more complicated set of problems that can and will happen. It’s a tradeoff. If you can’t see that and want to keep on with whatever your point is, I guess go ahead.

as it turns out, a lot of people do play games on consoles, and a lot of people play games on PCs, and some even play on both. Shocking, I know, but you don’t need to feel like your preferred platform is being threatened every time a new console comes along and then make up stuff like “PCs are easier and cheaper!”

 

[Red Falcon]

My cousin got himself a hand me down computer with a Intel 4790K and a GTX 970. About as old as a PS4 and he's super happy to have it. He was shocked to learn the computer is about 6 years old. I delidded the 4790K and put Yuzu on his PC and now he's enjoying Doom Eternal and some Switch games. That's pretty impressive for 6 year old hardware. A person with a Intel 2500K and a Radeon R9 290 would be equally as happy today.


Cheap old indie games are cheap everywhere. I'm talking about relatively new games that just got released. Keep in mind that on PC you have multiple choices when it comes to where you buy your games digitally, but not on consoles. That means nobody is competing for your money. Consoles are essentially an oligopoly. It's only an issue on PC when a 3rd party game is exclusive to a store, like Epic usually is doing lately.


For PC you listed everything that can go wrong, but on console you listed the best possible scenario. I know for a fact that the PS4 can take hours to download and install updates, and things do go wrong. Ideally you should be able to plug it in, turn it on, and click play. Ideally on PC you should be able to plug it in, turn it on, and click play. Also owning Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft consoles is just as confusing as Origin, Uplay, and Epic. I could use RROD or the PS4's blinking blue light of death. If PC's where that bad then why aren't we using consoles? Because you're reaching.

Linux Mint right here. Looking forward to Mint 20.

Installing four launchers is a problem for you, but not installing Ubuntu? Figuring out which console you bought Skyrim for isn't is a problem, but finding a game from four launchers is a problem? That's a problem I'd rather have honestly. We all wish Netflix was the only video streaming service, but now Disney made Disney+ and Amazon is getting in on this as well. It's called competition and it's usually good for the consumer. If Sony asked for $70 for a game you'd have no choice, because a PS4 has only one store.

You don't have to do any of the things I've shown, but at the same time you do have the option. Consoles don't even humor the option.

How about these mods? The point is you can do whatever you want.


They aren't, because PC is clearly better.

Firstly, and I'm gonna piss off a lot of people here saying this, but if you bought a $800 graphics card then you made a mistake. If you paid $200 to put a water block on it, then you made an even worse mistake. Generally whatever the extra cost of the water block adds then you're better off buying the next tier up GPU. I wouldn't buy a Radeon 5700 and water block it when I can buy a Radeon 5700 XT for better performance and for less money than adding a water block. Also, anything higher than $400 is going to have diminished returns. Chances are whatever Nvidia and AMD are going to release this year or next year will be worlds better than your RTX 2080 or whatever. If you bought a GTX 1080 Ti years ago for $800 then your investment can't do Ray-Tracing like a RTX 2060 for $300.

The people who buy $800 graphic cards are the same people who bought a Borla muffler for their car. They have money to burn and don't know where to spend it. That's right, I piss off both the console peasants and the PC gamers.

I posted this in the other PS5 thread, but it is fitting here as well:

What a lot of individuals here are forgetting is that many people don't want to build systems - be it lack of knowledge, too much work, lack of time, etc. - many of them just want to get a console, connect it into their TV and Wi-Fi, sit down, and start playing games with minimal hassle; they aren't in it for the hardware, they are in it for the games, period.
Convenience and ease-of-use are both massive factors with the average gamer.

Now, for those like us, yes, a custom PC with game mods and rich amounts of features for a similar price to the PS5, is far more logical and enticing, ergo, it gives us more value for the price for our interests and requirements.
Business is a major side of this that quite a few here are forgetting about, and Sony is no slouch when it comes to this aspect - if they were, they wouldn't have survived beyond the launch of the original PlayStation back in 1994.

They aren't, because PC is clearly better.

Depending on the build, yes, that is almost always the case - for a price.
Cost is a massive factor - of course a $4000 custom gaming desktop is going to blow away a PS5 in terms of performance, but that isn't the point of all of this.

What I described above is the point - it's the value, and requirement, of the individual.
Blind "faith" in either is nonsense, and each have their own strengths and weaknesses.

Firstly, and I'm gonna piss off a lot of people here saying this, but if you bought a $800 graphics card then you made a mistake. If you paid $200 to put a water block on it, then you made an even worse mistake. Generally whatever the extra cost of the water block adds then you're better off buying the next tier up GPU. I wouldn't buy a Radeon 5700 and water block it when I can buy a Radeon 5700 XT for better performance and for less money than adding a water block. Also, anything higher than $400 is going to have diminished returns. Chances are whatever Nvidia and AMD are going to release this year or next year will be worlds better than your RTX 2080 or whatever. If you bought a GTX 1080 Ti years ago for $800 then your investment can't do Ray-Tracing like a RTX 2060 for $300.

You are arguing against yourself now.
GPUs, much like CPUs back in the 1980s-2000s, have extremely diminishing returns as time goes on, and their ROI has an extremely short half-life, especially at the pace they have been moving in the last 20 years.

Ray-Tracing isn't exactly an amazing feature to have at this moment, and anything below a RTX 2080 Ti won't even be able to play Ray-Tracing enabled games at decent frame rates.
The GTX 1080 Ti does have 11GB of VRAM, which has definitely extended it's value over the last 3 years, far more than an RTX 2060 has at the moment; this is like arguing that a 7900GTX has far less value than an 8600GTS because the 8600GTS has DX10 support while the 7900GTX only has DX9.0c support, even though the 7900GTX blows the 8600GTS away in terms of overall performance - aka, not a great argument, especially for a less-than-stellar feature.

As for the longevity of value, consoles hold their value far better than any GPU ever will, both in their mainstream-usage era, and in retro-gaming eras.
GPUs' value, especially by the retro era of their life, are extremely niche; consoles do not have this 'issue', if you can call it that.

Buying a high-end GPU (assuming it is used for gaming and not GPGPU or specialized HPC applications) is really meant to be purchased and used for the then-best-performance available at the time; beyond that, yes, it is usually a terrible value with quickly diminishing returns.
Really, the high VRAM on the GTX 1080 Ti have held its value better than most high-end GPUs in the last decade, and I would argue that the only other GPUs that held up long past their prime would have been the 8800GTS 640MB and the 8800GTX (G80).

 

[M76]

I'm sick and tired of this Console vs PC argument, there is never an end to it. It's the same circles over and over again.

We all heard them ad nauseum, and we all heard them debunked ad nauseum. the only reason I hate consoles is because I can't play with a KB+Mouse, everything else is insignificant.

 

[M76]

Firstly, and I'm gonna piss off a lot of people here saying this, but if you bought a $800 graphics card then you made a mistake. If you paid $200 to put a water block on it, then you made an even worse mistake. Generally whatever the extra cost of the water block adds then you're better off buying the next tier up GPU.

There are two mistakes you made in this argument. If you already bought the highest tier GPU. I mean if you buy a 2080TI, and put a water block on it then it makes sense. Yes the Titan does exist above the 2080Ti, but it's not $200 more, besides you can put an AIO on a GPU for much less than that, but no, that's not your second mistake yet.

The second mistake you made, is disregarding people who put custom loops and coolers on their GPU for silence, and not for squeezing out 1 more FPS in CSGO.

I wouldn't buy a Radeon 5700 and water block it when I can buy a Radeon 5700 XT for better performance and for less money than adding a water block. Also, anything higher than $400 is going to have diminished returns. Chances are whatever Nvidia and AMD are going to release this year or next year will be worlds better than your RTX 2080 or whatever.

That's a circular argument. Whatever new that will be worlds better than a RTX2080, will also cost as much as a 2080 cost last year or when you hypothetically bought it.
You won't get anything close to a 2080 this year for $400. Let alone something "worlds better"

If you bought a GTX 1080 Ti years ago for $800 then your investment can't do Ray-Tracing like a RTX 2060 for $300.

If you bought a GTX 1080 TI years ago you have been enjoying it for years FFS, you can't just disregard linear time.
And still today it is faster than even a 2070, let alone a 2060.
And Ray Tracing is a non-sequitur. Firstly because there are hardly any games that support it even if you have the hardware for it, secondly because a 2060 won't cut it if you want playable frame rates at reasonable resolutions.

The people who buy $800 graphic cards are the same people who bought a Borla muffler for their car. They have money to burn and don't know where to spend it. That's right, I piss off both the console peasants and the PC gamers.

I get it now, you have muffler envy

 

[DukenukemX]

the point is that even your friend’s 4790k / 970 build would have cost more than a console at the time, and the cost of games is a wash, so please stop claiming that a PC is somehow cheaper.

Was probably a $1k PC in 2014, at least. But a PS4 in 2014 was $400 and 7 years of paying $50 a year for PS Plus would have cost you $350. If you own a PS4 since 2014 then you would have spent nearly as much as a mid range PC. That PC is still capable of over 60 fps 1080p gaming, while the PS4 still isn't. I didn't build that PC, that was some other guy. I would have bought a FX 8350 and put in a R9 290, because it would have been cheaper. But you clearly don't need to upgrade anything every 2-3 years on a PC. I can assure you that PC will continue to happily game for at least another 2-3 years from now. The PS4, not so much.

Games go on sale on consoles same as they do on PC, and PC games are just as expensive at release as console games (fitting since so many of them are ports these says) but dismissing that list as “cheap old indie games” makes me think you might have not actually looked at it to see what has been given away for free with that $60/yr subscription?

You're given anything for $60/yr? Last I checked you're renting, not buying. You stop the subscription do you get to keep those games. Humbe Bundle does this, on PC.

You refuse to acknowledge it’s possible for console games and PC games to coexist,

Yea, because console gaming has negatively effected PC gaming. We PC gamers have noticed that games today are very different. There's a reason why a GTX 970 can still play todays games more than fine, because the limiting factor is still consoles. We all know when the PS5 is released then we'll see a lot more games with Ray-Tracing, even though PC has had Ray-Tracing for 2 years now.

so you take your chosen platform and call it superior, when the point is that they’re not even comparable other than “you play games on it.”

Isn't that what ultimately matters? There are games that you can play on PC that you can't ever play on console. You could say the reverse on console, but only because of exclusives and even then emulators are inevitable.

 

[next-Jin]

Keep in mind that what happened to mobile consoles will eventually happen to home consoles. The smart phone which on average costs more than a 3DS or Vita has destroyed mobile console gaming. A smart phone which runs Android or iOS that can do other things besides play games. Eventually the same will happen to home consoles as PC gaming will destroy their market in time.

I doubt Nintendo will go after VR gaming. The reason I think Nintendo will still make hardware is because 3rd party games on the Switch are making them good money. So I feel Nintendo will still pursue hardware for at least a Switch Pro. Beyond a Switch Pro depends if Nintendo has the balls to go up against Sony and Microsoft, because for a while Nintendo is afraid to compete directly against these two companies.


Keep in mind that Sony's custom controller can access UP TO 9GB/sec. That doesn't mean it will transfer speeds at 9GB/sec. No NVME SSD works that fast. You're only as fast as your weakest link. The fastest SSD I'm aware of is 4.4GB/sec, and that's one expensive SSD. I really doubt Sony is going to put an expensive SSD in a PS5. These are the same people that claim Blu-ray disc games will install blindingly fast due to this feature on the PS5. You seriously can't smell the bullshit?

A Windows update can fix that. Also, why wouldn't a PCI-E card inserted into your PC do what the PS5 does? Assuming that anyone makes such a thing. Keep in mind that if such a thing was needed then the PC enterprise industry would have created it long ago.

Again, why a motherboard feature is needed? Why can't this be done on PCI-E 4.0, like Sony is doing?

If Sony puts up load times of the PS5 for a game that's available on PC then we can have a valuable comparison. Until then I call bullshit.

It’s not an NVMe drive as the standard SSD in the PS5. It’s a fully custom solution using processes that everyone knows about but just don’t do due to the nature of PC.

It’s not BS marketing, MS is using the standard approach and have less than half the bandwidth. If it was just another PCIE NVMe drive you could toss a current one in the system and be fine. They’ve said it wouldn’t be ideal and we’d need something like 7GBs drives to meet the overhead requirements of 5.5GBs of the stock drive.

Yes those things are indeed coming to PC but I don’t understand how you think it’s all BS or marketing. If they had not done all of the custom work to it you’d have the Series X solution. It really is that simple, and the Series X solution is what PCs are already doing.

 

[kac77]

There will be a PS4 emulator. Who will make it and when will it be made is a different question. There is a working PS3 and Switch emulator for a while now.

You need to pay attention to what's happening in the world of emulators.


Yes, more ram. The more ram you have the more developers can load the next level into memory while you play the game. So instead of long elevator rides which is really just a loading screen, you just continue playing.


Pricing and ease of use are both misconceptions of console advantages. Sure a console is cheaper up front, but 5-7 years later that console is going to cost more than an expensive gaming PC. Monthly fees to play games online and more expensive games means you'll spend more money on that console than a PC built in the same era. Also, if you can't use a Windows PC then you're too old to be playing games.

There's a lot more to PC gaming than just higher frame rates and resolutions. PC gaming is responsible for mods that turned into their own games like Counter Strike and DOTA2. PC gaming is the reason why indie games exist like Undertale and Hollow Knight. PC gaming is why Half Life Alyx exists. PC gaming is where you can play Zelda Breath of the Wild as Steve from Minecraft with a Sponge Bob shield and Thomas the Tank is your mount.

"There will be." Basically so it's not out now. Gotcha.

 

[d3athf1sh]

Keep in mind that Sony's custom controller can access UP TO 9GB/sec. That doesn't mean it will transfer speeds at 9GB/sec. No NVME SSD works that fast. You're only as fast as your weakest link. The fastest SSD I'm aware of is 4.4GB/sec, and that's one expensive SSD. I really doubt Sony is going to put an expensive SSD in a PS5.

yeah but the NVME drives they're using are broken up into 5 sections (if i remember correctly, think he said 5 channels) and are being accessed in a RAID 0 or 5 fashion to give them the higher bandwidth. That's why they were saying that the drives are proprietary and there are currently no drives for PC that have that kind of bandwidth. prob just 5 256GB NVME ssd's w/ custom raid controller to equal a 1TB raid 5 array basically. (or something like that?)

 

[DukenukemX]

What a lot of individuals here are forgetting is that many people don't want to build systems

Then don't and buy the many plethora of pre-built PC's. Buy a laptop that fits your needs. What we do here is clearly not for everyone.

Business is a major side of this that quite a few here are forgetting about, and Sony is no slouch when it comes to this aspect - if they were, they wouldn't have survived beyond the launch of the original PlayStation back in 1994.

When the original Playstation was launched, gaming was very different. In September 1995 not 1994 in Japan, there was no such thing as a gaming PC. The first Voodoo graphics card was released in November 1996. It wasn't cheap to own any sort of PC in 1995, let alone one specifically built for gaming, as a PC back then was at least $1k in 1995 money. That's why consoles exist because they were far cheaper than a PC, plus nobody wanted to learn DOS commands to launch a game.

Ray-Tracing isn't exactly an amazing feature to have at this moment, and anything below a RTX 2080 Ti won't even be able to play Ray-Tracing enabled games at decent frame rates.

Ray-Tracing isn't amazing but when consoles have it then PC games will require it. Will it be playable? That depends on your definition of "playable".

The GTX 1080 Ti does have 11GB of VRAM, which has definitely extended it's value over the last 3 years, far more than an RTX 2060 has at the moment;

The only thing extending a 1080 Ti's value is console hardware limiting PC gaming. A GTX 970 owner would still enjoy todays games at 1080p 60fps with medium to high settings. A 1080 Ti would allow you to run games at max settings at 1440P, depending on the game? When Ray-Tracing hardware is a requirement then the 1080 Ti equally as incapable as a GTX 970.

this is like arguing that a 7900GTX has far less value than an 8600GTS because the 8600GTS has DX10 support while the 7900GTX only has DX9.0c support,
even though the 7900GTX blows the 8600GTS away in terms of overall performance - aka, not a great argument, especially for a less-than-stellar feature.

Yea, actually it does. There are some games that required DX10 support, though not many because DX9 was the choice for most PC games. Mostly because the PS3 and 360 ran on DX9 like hardware. Going back a bit further there was a time when you either had DX9.0c or you didn't get to play games. Remember when BioShock required SM3.0 and couldn't run on ATI's SM2.0 cards? This guy remembers. This guy also remembers when my Radeon 8500 could play games that Geforce 4 Ti owners couldn't because DX8.1 became the minimum needed.

As for the longevity of value, consoles hold their value far better than any GPU ever will, both in their mainstream-usage era, and in retro-gaming eras.
GPUs' value, especially by the retro era of their life, are extremely niche; consoles do not have this 'issue', if you can call it that.

You're right but that's why during the PS3/360 era you didn't need anything better than a DX9 graphics card, because consoles set the standard. This is also why a GTX 970 can do well today because the XB1 and PS4 both use DX11 like hardware.

Really, the high VRAM on the GTX 1080 Ti have held its value better than most high-end GPUs in the last decade, and I would argue that the only other GPUs that held up long past their prime would have been the 8800GTS 640MB and the 8800GTX (G80).

I don't see how VRAM plays much of a factor in this. If the purpose is to play games and 1080p then 4GB is more than enough. Which I would remind you that hardly any PS4 or XB1 game runs at 1080p let alone 60fps. Native 1080p, as consoles now are upscaling. This is also why consoles went the Sega CD direction and started to divide their systems with PS4 Pro and Xbox One X. Because this industry never learns anything from history. Sony and Microsoft are about to make the same mistake again with the PS5 and Xbox Series X, though more so on Microsoft than Sony.

 

[T4rd]

Well considering that you consistently shit on consoles every chance you get, while pirating their games and calling console players stupid for not playing on PC too, I'm not sure you have much credibility on the subject or in this thread, esp. with all that hyperbole that I'm not going to get into. So I'd like to see all that kept to a minimum in this thread and you can go back to the PS5 Pricing issue news thread that you derailed several times in your crusade to label consoles and their exclusives as anti-consumer and even illegal by citing some irrelevant movie theater exclusivity precedent, if you must keep it up.

Called it at the beginning of the thread. Don't feed him guys, I've already made the same arguments and am done with it. He's a typical broke dude doing his best to justify a PC- only platform while pirating games from all platforms and shits in every console news thread he can; nothing more to it.

 

[Nebell]

Well considering I have a ton of white glossy bookshelves at home that hold my board games, and since my TV is standing on one of them and the console will be below it, it looks perfect IMO. I just hope it's not too tall and will fit.

No exact dimensions released yet?
Edit: current estimation about 38cm tall (15 inches).

 

[IdiotInCharge]

It’s not an NVMe drive as the standard SSD in the PS5. It’s a fully custom solution using processes that everyone knows about but just don’t do due to the nature of PC.

It’s not BS marketing, MS is using the standard approach and have less than half the bandwidth. If it was just another PCIE NVMe drive you could toss a current one in the system and be fine. They’ve said it wouldn’t be ideal and we’d need something like 7GBs drives to meet the overhead requirements of 5.5GBs of the stock drive.

Yes those things are indeed coming to PC but I don’t understand how you think it’s all BS or marketing. If they had not done all of the custom work to it you’d have the Series X solution. It really is that simple, and the Series X solution is what PCs are already doing.

It's an NVMe drive with some tweaking in the stack.

Please stop swallowing Sony's marketing BS.

 

[next-Jin]

It's an NVMe drive with some tweaking in the stack.

Please stop swallowing Sony's marketing BS.

lol I’m not swallowing their bs. A few tweaks here and there is not at all what I get from the road to PS5 brief and Game Dev statements. I can see that for Xbox SeX namely their own software stack being “tweaks”.

It’s not earth shattering no, and will it make a huge difference I have no idea. Maybe for first party games.

But everything about the drive configuration was changed quite literally. Custom controller, custom lane configuration, custom software stack, they effectively removed all the little bottlenecks across the board. That’s why you can’t just put a 970 Evo Plus in it and expect it to work right. Cerny said it’ll end up needing to be a 7+GB per sec drive to be able to meet the 5.5 of their custom solution because of its inherent overhead with these SSD manufacturers custom controllers.

It’s ok if Sony has a cool SSD solution that PC doesn’t have right now. Y’all are acting like the world is ending or something.

 

[Aurelius]

It is funny how you can see some hardcore PC gamers' insecurity on display here. They can't concede that a console might have a hardware advantage over a PC, even if it's only a partial one that might not last for more than a couple of years, because that might involve admitting that their PC isn't always the best and that a console might have more expansive and seamless game worlds for a while. Look, I'm sure your pricey gaming PC is awesome and can do things a PS5 or XSX can't, but... you don't need it to be better at everything, all the time to feel good about yourself. You're allowed to prefer one platform while recognizing that another has its perks.

 

[next-Jin]

It is funny how you can see some hardcore PC gamers' insecurity on display here. They can't concede that a console might have a hardware advantage over a PC, even if it's only a partial one that might not last for more than a couple of years, because that might involve admitting that their PC isn't always the best and that a console might have more expansive and seamless game worlds for a while. Look, I'm sure your pricey gaming PC is awesome and can do things a PS5 or XSX can't, but... you don't need it to be better at everything, all the time to feel good about yourself. You're allowed to prefer one platform while recognizing that another has its perks.

I’m a PC gamer and have a PS4 for “exclusives” the problem for me is I can’t finish them due to bad frame pacing or 30fps with bad motion blur.

I’m excited for the PS5 for the BC and me catching up on all the ones I bought and never played or finished. I’m also excited to see what happens when SSDs become the norm in game design. How each company differs in that aspect will be fun.

My main PC is a 9900k and 2080Ti, I mainly play Halo atm but always go back to Total Wars or other First Person Shooters. That’s one thing consoles will never be able to touch.

 

[staknhalo]

I've had a console + PC for a lot of my life, playing different games and finding favorite games on both. Used to have a Nintendo + no PC, Super Nintendo then also PC few years later, Sega Saturn + PC, Playstation + PC, PlayStation 2 + PC. It's only when the PS3/360 released I realized I didn't really need the console anymore - as most my games also came out on PC (also about the time I would have been paying for both completely on my own if I wanted them - funny that) and I used my PC for other things in addition to gaming. It was just the economical choice for me at the time. The only thing I've missed out on since leaving consoles behind is Metal Gear Solid 4. I actually owned a 360 down the line to use as a Windows Media Extender, just never gamed on it.

I've seen how consoles were better at doing what they did - because they only had to do 1 thing - than PCs at doing that same thing, for these parts of my life. Not just graphically/technologically - but in experience. Even the PS3 and 360 started off keeping that true. Also, because I just happened to have made the switch before online gaming became 'normal', I accumulated my online gaming friends on Steam/PC - not on console - which I could see being a factor in remaining on console if that were the case.

As I mentioned elsewhere - it's only around 2007/2008 that PCs started to become equal/better graphically than the current consoles of that time (PC games like Doom 3 and HL2 that were coming out in 2004 and 2005 were looking better than then current 6th gen consoles at the end of their life/time, but then 7th gen consoles came out in 2006 and reset the the status quo briefly) - and have pretty much held that ground since (8th gen really was lackluster, and felt uneventful from the PC side). Like I said, that's a long time for old timers to forget and newbies who never knew to begin with - PC wasn't always on top.

Even if in a new area aside from resolution/framerate - PCs having to catch up to console would be a return to norm in my eyes; rather than what I still consider 'a new norm'. I don't know why people feel the need to take it so personal like all of a sudden THEY don't matter anymore if a console can beat their PC in some way, in one specific benchmark for one specific thing.

 

[Deleted member 82943]

Set yourself a reminder, alarm, calendar event, or whatever at 4 PM EDT/1 PM PDT/8 PM UTC today! After months of speculations and rumors, Playstation will finally reveal what games we can expect from the PS5. Who knows, maybe they will show the console AND a price tag.

The stream is set to be a little over an hour long. You can catch the stream on YouTube or Twitch.

PS5 console and accessories:
PS5 Hardware Reveal Trailer
View attachment 252994

Spoiler: Once you seen it, it can't be unseen

View attachment 252997

Games showcased (click on link to 4K video):
GTA V Online 2021
Marvel's Spider-Man: Miles Morales 2020
Gran Turismo 7
Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart
Project Athia
Stray 2021
Returnal
Sackboy A Big Adventure
Destruction Allstars
Kena: Bridge of Spirits
Goodbye Volcano High 2021
Oddworld Soulstorm
Ghostwire: Tokyo 2021
JETT: The Far Shore 2020
Godfall 2020
Solar Ash 2021
Hitman III 2021
Astro's Playroom
Little Devil Inside
NBA 2K21 2020
Bugsnax 2020
Demon's Souls
DEATHLOOP
Resident Evil Village 2021
Pragmata 2022
Horizon Forbidden West


YouTube


Twitch
Playstation Twitch

The launch titles look weak imo