PROOF that Steam sucks...

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gibber

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Here's all the proof you need:

Try to find a customer service phone number where you can reach a real human person.

If Steam did not suck, they would not need to make it so ridiculously hard to speak to someone.

:rolleyes:

I tried to call them because I don't agree to the new terms of service, I guess the only option that leaves me with is getting refunds on all the games I bought which require Steam. I'm trying to get ahold of them to find out how I do that. That is, unless they are willing to keep my money, keep a customer, and not FORCE me to agree to new different terms than what I bought my software under.
 
They won't give you a refund. They will give you the option to disable your account though. Best bet is to not get upset over something trivial.
 
what don't you agree with?...their new policy of no class action lawsuits?

apparently it may not be enforceable according to a lawyer...

"Generally, such a contractual term that excludes or restricts a person from pursuing a right or remedy may be considered an unenforceable contract term if deemed unfair and/or unreasonable.”
 
First off, you don't get a refund.
Second, you don't buy the software. You haven't for a while now. You buy a license to play.
Third, class actions only benefit the lawyers anyway. They get millions in fees, and the customer gets a 10% off a new purchase coupon if your lucky.
Fourth, old news. http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1708707&highlight=steam
Fifth, rants should be in GenMay.

Deal with them, or use small claims if you have a issue.
 
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Ok, I won't get too stressed over it, I'll try to be a little more ZEN... Let's go over the scenario a little more. So today it comes up with some new agreement and I'm just thinking: "You know what, I don't really agree with this, let me press "disagree" and just install it anyway ok? So I press "disagree" and it just exits. No message, nothing. So I do it again. Same thing...

I'm just tired of being dictated to, told that I must agree to this or that.

AFTER I paid for it. If I could see the agreement before I bought it, then I actually have some choice.

I don't agree, what do I do? Forfeit hundreds of dollars of software? Click the button anyway even though I don't agree? Then why show me the stupid thing in the first place?

I bought some of the games in a box at a B&M store so I don't even want to have to use Steam with them, just let me play the darn game and stop bugging me Steam :(

Monkey34 said:
First off, you don't get a refund.
Second, you don't buy the software. You haven't for a while now. You buy a license to play.
Third, class actions only benefit the lawyers anyway. They get millions in fees, and the customer gets a 10% off a new purchase coupon if your lucky.
...
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1) I don't agree with that "license" idea in the first place. You can't "have your cake and eat it too" - if I can't "buy" software then companies can't call it "stealing" when people copy it, right?

2) Those EULA things used to say "or return for a refund" - if they don't say that then I think they've just thrown any shred of validity out the window.

3) Yeah, class action just feeds vulture lawyers and doesn't benefit us much except in one important way, or at least we could HOPE: it keeps companies in line somewhat? Perhaps that's just wishful thinking. Perhaps they just consider them one of the "costs of doing business" and do whatever they want anyway?
 
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That's a downside of DRM. You don't own anything. You just pay for a license to play the product under the terms that the licenser granted.

You own nothing.

You have nothing.

You agree to their terms.

If they say you have to eat a turd before you can play their game, that's the deal. No matter how much you've previously paid.
 
jwcalla said:
That's a downside of DRM. You don't own anything. You just pay for a license to play the product under the terms that the licenser granted.

You own nothing.

You have nothing.

You agree to their terms.

If they say you have to eat a turd before you can play their game, that's the deal. No matter how much you've previously paid.
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Has nothing to do with DRM. Even when you bought software years before the acronym D.R.M. and Steam came into being you didn't own your software.
 
Monkey, you ignored the main point of my post - companies that have good products are HAPPY to have a phone number that you can call, and speak to a human. Heck, if McDonald's makes me a bad cup of coffee corporate is HAPPY when I call and tell them. They tell me sorry, the give me 2 free replacement coffees, they tell the local franchise owner who then sends me a free meal coupon, and then calls me to talk about what went wrong. All that for a product that cost me $2.89. Over the last five years I've called them about 3 different times. The local supermarket chain, they sold me some canned asparagus that had some sand in it. I called them and they gave me a $20 gift card and apologized and told me they will make sure it doesn't happen again. They didn't make me sign a paper when I bought it saying that there may occasionally have sand in it, and if it does well I'll have to accept that, then if they don't want me to have it any longer they'll take it away from me.
 
When I bought a SEGA cartridge you can be damn sure I owned that cartridge, even if it did contain their copyrighted code on it. They had no legal grounds to make me give that cartridge back once I bought it. It's an annoying nitpick to not let consumers "own" a program. I'm not saying we should own the RIGHTS to sell/distribute multiple copies, just our copy.
 
Cheetoz said:
Are you switching over to Origin?
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Origin has been a headache too. That was sure was some glitchy piece of crap software when I first used it.

Before I get too old ant turn senile, I've got to just write my own god damn game already, then I can not only delete Steam, but use one of those "data scrubebers" and overwrite 0s and 1s all over it's empty space where it used to be...
 
Steam's current terms of service may be found here:

http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/

You can find previous versions of the terms of service by using the Wayback Machine:

http://wayback.archive.org/web/*/http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/

The most relevant section to your issue is section 9:

"9. AMENDMENTS TO THIS AGREEMENT

Valve may amend this Agreement (including any Subscription Terms or Rules of Use) at any time in its sole discretion. If Valve amends the Agreement, such amendment shall be effective thirty (30) days after your receiving notice of the amended Agreement, either via e-mail or as a notification within the Software. You can view the Agreement at any time at http://www.steampowered.com/. Your failure to cancel your Account, or cease use of the Subscription(s) affected by the amendment, within thirty (30) days after receiving notification of the amendment, will constitute your acceptance of the amended terms. If you don't agree to the amendments or to any of the terms in this Agreement, your only remedy is to cancel your Account or to cease use of the affected Subscription(s). Valve shall not have any obligation to refund any fees that may have accrued to your Account before cancellation of your Account or cessation of use of any Subscription, nor shall Valve have any obligation to prorate any fees in such circumstances."

Using the Wayback Machine, here's the September 15, 2008 version of that section:

"12. AMENDMENTS TO THIS AGREEMENT

Valve may amend this Agreement at any time in its sole discretion. As a Subscriber, you agree that Valve may amend the terms of this Agreement. If Valve amends the Agreement, such amendment shall be effective thirty (30) days after your receiving notice of the amended Agreement, either via e-mail or as a notification within the Steam Software. You can view the Agreement at any time at http://www.steampowered.com/. Your failure to cancel your Account thirty (30) days after receiving notification of an amended Agreement will mean that you accept all such amendments. If you don't agree to the amendments or to any of the terms in this Agreement, your only remedy is to cancel your Account or a particular Subscription."

The latter part of the current version of that section was rearranged from Section 4 B in the September 2008 version:

"ALL STEAM FEES ARE PAYABLE IN ADVANCE AND ARE NOT REFUNDABLE IN WHOLE OR IN PART. Valve reserves the right to change our fees or billing methods at any time and Valve will provide notice of any such change at least thirty (30) days advance. All changes will be posted as amendments to this Agreement or in the Rules of Use and you are responsible for reviewing the billing section of Steam to obtain timely notice of such changes. Your non-cancellation of your Account or an affected Subscription thirty (30) days after posting of the changes on Steam means that you accept such changes. If any change is unacceptable to you, you may cancel your Account or a particular Subscription at any time as described below, but Valve will not refund any fees that may have accrued to your Account before cancellation of your Account or Subscription, and Valve will not prorate fees for any cancellation."

I am not a lawyer, but in my view, you are objecting to terms of service that you have been agreeing to since at least September 15, 2008 or whenever you began your account (whichever is newer). 2008 version: "If you don't agree to the amendments or to any of the terms in this Agreement, your only remedy is to cancel your Account or a particular Subscription." 2012 version: "If you don't agree to the amendments or to any of the terms in this Agreement, your only remedy is to cancel your Account or to cease use of the affected Subscription(s)." Either way, you're done.

Talking to a human, be it Valve support or your lawyer, will not get you any sort of refund. All versions of the terms of service are very clear about that.

tl:dr - you started reading terms of service way, way too late.
 
gibber said:
Monkey, you ignored the main point of my post - companies that have good products are HAPPY to have a phone number that you can call, and speak to a human. Heck, if McDonald's makes me a bad cup of coffee corporate is HAPPY when I call and tell them. They tell me sorry, the give me 2 free replacement coffees, they tell the local franchise owner who then sends me a free meal coupon, and then calls me to talk about what went wrong. All that for a product that cost me $2.89. Over the last five years I've called them about 3 different times. The local supermarket chain, they sold me some canned asparagus that had some sand in it. I called them and they gave me a $20 gift card and apologized and told me they will make sure it doesn't happen again. They didn't make me sign a paper when I bought it saying that there may occasionally have sand in it, and if it does well I'll have to accept that, then if they don't want me to have it any longer they'll take it away from me.
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You are exactly the reason why companies make it difficult to talk to an actual person. You seriously called McDonalds because you got a bad cup of coffee? Three times? Really?
 
I'm surprised McDonalds actually gave a damn, something tells me he probably whine... Err, called to complain more than three times.

Anyway, the whole Steam complaint has no merit if you had already agreed to an EULA that stated it was subject to change (I'm surprised they waited until 08 to put that in tbh, or is that just the earliest version of it that the above poster could find? probably so). Whether you agree with the concept of licensing software or not is irrelevant, since you have already agreed to do so.

It's also a perfectly valid business practice, as is renting or leasing... A million different things aren't outright sold as a product for you to own, if you have such an ideological opposition to the concept you should probably research how you spend your money BEFORE spending it, and you might wanna consider a hobby a bit further away from the bleeding edge. Maybe Legos?

That being said, a lot of EULAs don't hold up in court, so maybe your new hobby can be practicing law from the backseat as you and a well paid attorney take Valve to court, I for one am looking forward to it.
 
Maximus825 said:
You are exactly the reason why companies make it difficult to talk to an actual person. You seriously called McDonalds because you got a bad cup of coffee? Three times? Really?
Click to expand...

I paid almost three dollars and their machine was badly mist-adjusted putting about half as much espresso in as it should.

Most any corporation should be (and most are) thankful for those customers who call, rather than just stop being customers.
 
Dude, pretty sure steam won't try to screw you. They are probably only trying to cover themselves from assholes. Also, in Australia at least their terms are redundant according to the lawyers I know.
 
Impulse said:
I'm surprised McDonalds actually gave a damn, something tells me he probably whine... Err, called to complain more than three times.
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No. I only called because I want them to pay attention and fix the machine if it's only dispensing half as much espresso as it should be. I don't know if they're trying to "save money" or the machine just needs maintenance. Either way, it's disappointing that 3 times in a row at 2 different McDonalds the clerks didn't notice or didn't care that they were handing me such a poorly made product. I've worked as a low paid clerk in a similar job and I did my best to make sure every product I prepared was well made.
Anyway, the whole Steam complaint has no merit if you had already agreed to an EULA that stated it was subject to change (I'm surprised they waited until 08 to put that in tbh, or is that just the earliest version of it that the above poster could find? probably so). Whether you agree with the concept of licensing software or not is irrelevant, since you have already agreed to do so.

It's also a perfectly valid business practice, as is renting or leasing... A million different things aren't outright sold as a product for you to own, if you have such an ideological opposition to the concept you should probably research how you spend your money BEFORE spending it, and you might wanna consider a hobby a bit further away from the bleeding edge. Maybe Legos?

That being said, a lot of EULAs don't hold up in court, so maybe your new hobby can be practicing law from the backseat as you and a well paid attorney take Valve to court, I for one am looking forward to it.
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I click the button because if I don't my game won't install and it's a pain in the ass to get a refund, though I have done it several times.

I do not AGREE with the EULA. I think they're rubbish, and I don't think they are generally the least bit legally valid. But they are still annoying and I'm tired of them.

What if my trained monkey presses the "Agree" button while I look away from the screen? Am I still agreeing then?

What if I send an EULA for my email address: "by continuing to send emails to this address you agree to my terms and to pay me $5 per each email for my email reading service" EULA terms such as "by doing this, you agree to that" are BS.
 
it costs a company $8 to $10 to handle a call. that being said, I doubt the new EULA is enforceable since it essentially holds your account hostage.
 
jiminator said:
it costs a company $8 to $10 to handle a call. that being said, I doubt the new EULA is enforceable since it essentially holds your account hostage.
Click to expand...

Yup, CS is a manpower biz which means it is expensive. It is why when you call a buniness, your call gets connected to "William" who has a very thick Indian accent whose real name is anything but "William"
 
I have been saying Steam sucks for about a year now (for different reasons).

Origin isn't any better.
 
gibber said:
I'm just tired of being dictated to, told that I must agree to this or that.
AFTER I paid for it. If I could see the agreement before I bought it, then I actually have some choice.

I agree with you about switching up after the fact.

1) I don't agree with that "license" idea in the first place. You can't "have your cake and eat it too" - if I can't "buy" software then companies can't call it "stealing" when people copy it, right?
I also don't agree with the licensing aspect.

2) Those EULA things used to say "or return for a refund" - if they don't say that then I think they've just thrown any shred of validity out the window.

3) Yeah, class action just feeds vulture lawyers and doesn't benefit us much except in one important way, or at least we could HOPE: it keeps companies in line somewhat? Perhaps that's just wishful thinking. Perhaps they just consider them one of the "costs of doing business" and do whatever they want anyway?
Click to expand...
There is a smaller aspect of class actions forcing the company to change something, but there really is only a tiny benefit to the customers who were screwed first.

gibber said:
Monkey, you ignored the main point of my post - companies that have good products are HAPPY to have a phone number that you can call, and speak to a human. Heck, if McDonald's makes me a bad cup of coffee corporate is HAPPY when I call and tell them. They tell me sorry, the give me 2 free replacement coffees, they tell the local franchise owner who then sends me a free meal coupon, and then calls me to talk about what went wrong. All that for a product that cost me $2.89. Over the last five years I've called them about 3 different times. The local supermarket chain, they sold me some canned asparagus that had some sand in it. I called them and they gave me a $20 gift card and apologized and told me they will make sure it doesn't happen again. They didn't make me sign a paper when I bought it saying that there may occasionally have sand in it, and if it does well I'll have to accept that, then if they don't want me to have it any longer they'll take it away from me.
Click to expand...

gibber said:
When I bought a SEGA cartridge you can be damn sure I owned that cartridge, even if it did contain their copyrighted code on it. They had no legal grounds to make me give that cartridge back once I bought it. It's an annoying nitpick to not let consumers "own" a program. I'm not saying we should own the RIGHTS to sell/distribute multiple copies, just our copy.
Click to expand...

I could keep noting the points, but I guess it comes down to ....I don't disagree with you, but there isn't much you can do about it anymore. The PC gaming crowd is going to eat the license DRM model, or starve.....OR go to consoles. BUT I'm guessing consoles will do something similar if they haven't started already.

And companies will always try to get you to resolve issues in any way possible before dealing with a call. I've seen that plenty of times.
 
Has Steam's EULA included this yet?

"This is the video game industry. We ROFL at customer service like everyone else involved does. 15 year olds deal with it."
 
bigdogchris said:
Has Steam's EULA included this yet?

"This is the video game industry. We ROFL at customer service like everyone else involved does. 15 year olds deal with it."
Click to expand...

Eh, Origin is great on customer service: phone, livechat, and email responses that are prompt and helpful. Valve with Steam on the other hand... email only with a multiple-day-to-a-week response time, often requires emails back/forth, and absurdly strict/consumer-unfriendly policies with basically no exceptions ever made unless you get lucky and press REALLY hard ;).
 
Next time, don't buy DRM encumbered games. You're stuck with Steam's terms. Just remember you're not buying anything, you're renting for an indefinite amount of time.

That includes Steam including stupid DRM, stupid EULAs, banning you for something or other, Valve going bankrupt, and many other scenarios.

You buy DRM, you're stuck with their terms of remote activation.

They're not going to give you a refund.

If you want to avoid this in the future, spend your gaming dollars on games that don't rely on someone else's remote server to authorize you to play. Remember that you're supporting companies with your dollars - spend them like votes.
 
GreenMonkey said:
Next time, don't buy DRM encumbered games. You're stuck with Steam's terms. Just remember you're not buying anything, you're renting for an indefinite amount of time.

That includes Steam including stupid DRM, stupid EULAs, banning you for something or other, Valve going bankrupt, and many other scenarios.

You buy DRM, you're stuck with their terms of remote activation.

They're not going to give you a refund.

If you want to avoid this in the future, spend your gaming dollars on games that don't rely on someone else's remote server to authorize you to play. Remember that you're supporting companies with your dollars - spend them like votes.
Click to expand...

Then you'll never buy a major title again.
 
gibber said:
1) I don't agree with that "license" idea in the first place. You can't "have your cake and eat it too" - if I can't "buy" software then companies can't call it "stealing" when people copy it, right?
Click to expand...

Too bad. Software licensing in this form has existed for decades now. It is because it is easly to duplicate that they must protect their intellectual property in this way by licensing it. You don't own it. You don't own it anymore than you do a movie or TV show.

gibber said:
2) Those EULA things used to say "or return for a refund" - if they don't say that then I think they've just thrown any shred of validity out the window.
Click to expand...

Terms you don't like make the EULA invalid? What makes you so damned important? You can by physical media all you want, but to use something, you must agree to the terms which govern it's use. I can buy cars all I want, but to drive them legally, I must obey the law. Same thing. Software and it's use isn't a right according to the Bill of Rights.

gibber said:
3) Yeah, class action just feeds vulture lawyers and doesn't benefit us much except in one important way, or at least we could HOPE: it keeps companies in line somewhat? Perhaps that's just wishful thinking. Perhaps they just consider them one of the "costs of doing business" and do whatever they want anyway?
Click to expand...

How would it keep them in line? And what line do we need them to be in, given that this is a free market? We live in a litigation happy society, and companies are trying to protect themselves from entitlement happy cry babbies who bitch and then sue because they didn't understand the primary purpose or function of something.

If you don't like Steam, great. When something says: "Requires Steam activation" on the box to use it, DON'T FUCKING BUY IT. That's pretty simple.
 
If the big corporations get out of the PC gaming market, then smaller game makers will take their place. Many of my favorite games have even been free, or, cheap shareware.

wonderfield said:
Or threatened a lawsuit.
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I don't see any grounds (ha ha a joke) for a lawsuit there. Do they advertise it as specifically not being a crappy product perhaps?

No. Didn't threaten anybody other than possibly the implied threat that I might stop buying their product. I just think if they're going to charge three dollars for a damn coffee, then they damn well better not try to pinch pennies and make it cheap crap instead of making it proper strength.

Maybe that franchise just thought "gee, these espresso beans are expensive, why don't I just use some generic light roast coffee beans - either that or, set it to use less than half as much as they should.

I got another one today "medium iced vanilla latte "McAffe Beverage" even after they "added an extra shot for me" it was STILL pale compared to a Starbucks latte. I even bought one (S.B. latte) so I could take a photo of both side-by-side.
 
Dan_D said:
...If you don't like Steam, great. When something says: "Requires Steam activation" on the box to use it, DON'T FUCKING BUY IT. That's pretty simple.
Click to expand...

Nope. To use your language: who the fuck would have expected STEAM when they bought a game at a store for the express purpose of NOT buying a Steam game? (Civ V).

Once I found out it required Steam (and I got over the shock of feeling like somebody had just snuck up and screwed me in the ass) do you think I wanted to go through the hassle of getting a refund? Not really, but I would have, if I hadn't been hooked on the Civ series since the beginning.

That's like telling me "If you don't like GMO then just don't buy food" - some choice...
 
GreenMonkey said:
...If you want to avoid this in the future, spend your gaming dollars on games that don't rely on someone else's remote server to authorize you to play. Remember that you're supporting companies with your dollars - spend them like votes.
Click to expand...
For reasons similar to those I stopped buying console games completely except for a few (literally) used games to play on other people's consoles (I don't own a 360 or PS3 even though I used to be a console-maniac because I was so disgusted at the companies greed, charging $60 for games after they became a mass-market item).

Sadly, I don't think Microsoft or Sony feel much pain from losing my business.

I HATE DRM, it mostly serves as entertainment for the pirates (gives them something fun to do) and inconveniencing legitimate buyers. Not many things more exciting to a teenage geek than spending long caffeinated nights cracking "copy protection".
 
So you didn't bother reading the box, you didn't exercise your right to return the product, and now you have a grievance with Steam (who didn't even sell you the game)... Is that about right?
 
gibber said:
I got another one today "medium iced vanilla latte "McAffe Beverage" even after they "added an extra shot for me" it was STILL pale compared to a Starbucks latte. I even bought one (S.B. latte) so I could take a photo of both side-by-side.
Click to expand...

Has to be trolling us, can't be serious...
 
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