Principled Technologies Deny Bias in Recent Intel vs. AMD Testing Controversy

[DTN107]

A few hour's ride from me. Now I wonder where Gamer's Nexus is located...

I think on their website or indeed, it said Cary, NC (where I live pretty much).

He's pretty good at hiding.

 

[Prisoner849]

Nice guy for a lying shill.

 

[Jon855]

So we should've just not cared either back when you were doing sort of the same thing against nvidia's NDAs and GPP those news? Not be outraged about the lack of integrity in the business and not strive to get something better going? I see...

While I understand what you're saying but to merely put these two differences in the same camp is delirious at best. The "situations" are nowhere near being the same thing.

GPP & Nvidia NDA v. Paid Third Party Reviewer [Eval] != Same Issue

 

[Laowai]

I really don't get what the big deal is.
A company was hired to make the products of another company look good on paper.
Done.

Calling them out on it, if that's what you want to say it is, does not matter. Normal consumers won't know/care enough and tech enthusiasts generally ignore anything put out by the manufacturer or somebody paid by the manufacturer anyway.

While I'd much prefer truth in advertising, it seems much simpler to ignore any statements/numbers/predictions/benchmarks/comparisons put out by parties who are invested in it one way or another. This absolutely includes random YT 'personalities' who benefit from the shit they stir. Tempest in a teacup.

It's why I appreciate sites like this where the owners/operators don't give much of a fuck about Intel vs AMD or whatever else. They are more interested in the tech itself and how it really performs than who makes it.

 

[v3rninater]

No, a review is presented as "apples to apples," and that means TO ME, that we are looking at a normalized, EQUAL HARDWARE, testing solution, except for the items proposed in said review. Now there's a metric CRAP TON of differences in these review systems, so sure you could say, "that requires comprehension on my part," but that to ME is being pretentious because not everyone is a super nerd like us. We're the outlier in this case, reviews are for those who would be considered "casuals." This is just like the media today, a bunch of bias over-dramatized crap, that is not what it presumes to be. This is the world we unfortunately live in today, and so I'm super glad, sites like this one, and gamer nexus take on these fake-news situations and hold them fuggin accountable.

 

[Dan_D]

No, a review is presented as "apples to apples," and that means TO ME, that we are looking at a normalized, EQUAL HARDWARE, testing solution, except for the items proposed in said review. Now there's a metric CRAP TON of differences in these review systems, so sure you could say, "that requires comprehension on my part," but that to ME is being pretentious because not everyone is a super nerd like us. We're the outlier in this case, reviews are for those who would be considered "casuals." This is just like the media today, a bunch of bias over-dramatized crap, that is not what it presumes to be. This is the world we unfortunately live in today, and so I'm super glad, sites like this one, and gamer nexus take on these fake-news situations and hold them fuggin accountable.

Like I said, I think incompetence is at work here. Unless you are totally new to testing hardware, you can't have thought that this methodology would fly. To call it questionable is an understatement.

 

[SecretStash]

I would be unapologetic ASF. People need to stop answering to others, apologizing. If anything, I would just say, Intel is faster, period. Even the long haired guy at Gamer's Nexus very grudgingly admitted over and over in an interview the day before that Intel is going to be faster. That they didn't have to test AMD in the weird ways they did.

Give me one of these 9900k's and I promise I could sell a gazillion of them for Intel using readily available PC parts off the shelf.

I personally think it will be possible to get 5.1 or 5.2GHz across all cores with the S-TIM in place and good cooling. I might even add 3 more fans to my Corsair H150i Pro for a push / pull config. Plenty of room in my Corsair Obsidian 500d Premium case which I absolutely love.

Just own it, right? Even if you know you were wrong/false/incompetent. That's what they are good at in Washington DC.

 

[trparky]

I would just say, Intel is faster, period. Even the long haired guy at Gamer's Nexus very grudgingly admitted over and over in an interview the day before that Intel is going to be faster.

Yes, but at what cost? Sure, if you have the money to go Intel... go with Intel. Granted, I went with an Intel 8700K myself but that's only because I haven't built a new system in over five years so I had a lot of time to save up the cash to build a new system. AMD has never been the fastest solution but they definitely deliver the best bang for your buck. Intel performance is great and all but damn, they make you pay dearly for it.

 

[Kalabalana]

"Beyond reproach"
Then why the fuck up?

 

[FrgMstr]

So we should've just not cared either back when you were doing sort of the same thing against nvidia's NDAs and GPP those news? Not be outraged about the lack of integrity in the business and not strive to get something better going? I see...

I cannot fathom how you can see those as equivalent situations. Also, I have never told you what YOU should care about. I simply stated I do not understand the outrage. Sorry I have a different opinion of the situation than you and you obviously take issue with it.

Just own it, right? Even if you know you were wrong/false/incompetent.

THIS!

Intel did not handle the response well at all. This could have been "fixed" rather easily.

 

[STEvil]

I dont think the guy was too bad, just horribly misinformed, unless hes hiding that intel forced th benchmarks were to be done in the manner they were.

 

[dark_reign]

This guy seems a bit shady. He kept looking at his watch, had a lot of "duh" facial reactions and couldn't answer most of Steve's questions. There were also way too many "I'll have to ask my team what they did" answers.

 

[FrgMstr]

I dont think the guy was too bad, just horribly misinformed, unless hes hiding that intel forced th benchmarks were to be done in the manner they were.

I would have thought that Intel would have had an NDA in place with him so that he would not have been able to discuss that with the press. Intel should have fully handled this. They need me on their marketing team!

 

[IdiotInCharge]

This guy seems a bit shady. He kept looking at his watch, had a lot of "duh" facial reactions and couldn't answer most of Steve's questions. There were also way too many "I'll have to ask my team what they did" answers.

I think the guy did great with respect to the interview. Saying "I don't know" and "I'll ask my people for specifics" is what you do when you don't know the specifics, especially when you're going to be broadcast on a popular channel.

His purpose for taking the interview was likely to save face for his organization, and perhaps in doing so remain in Intel's confidence.

As to whether the screw up with the cooler and the application of the 'gaming mode' to the 2700X, there's no way to know whether those were Intel directed, indigenously hatched, or actually just ignorance/incompetence.

For me, the real issue is that they ran these benchmarks and provided them to Intel for publication without making a theoretical baseline comparison. They should have looked at the factors that affect CPU performance in their benchmarks (clocks, cores, caches, memory speeds, timings...) and made a rough estimate from a consensus of third-party benchmarks as a guide to follow for the new part and initiated investigations when performance doesn't line up with expectations.

 

[fwiler1]

You better get your fucking head in the game if you think your company is going to be around much longer. What a pathetic showing. I don't care if he is the ceo, president, co-founder, etc. Get the geriatric dumbass out of there if he doesn't know what he's doing and can't answer questions. If your team is that small, then you should definitely be able to answer any question, otherwise you are wasted space.

 

[Geef]

"our integrity and our technical knowledge are beyond reproach."

They've already lied from the get go and twice, integrity and also their technical knowledge.

Oh well, I'm sure if Intel offered me the right price I'd say their chips could do anything they told me.

Example: "For our review I must say Intel's chips can offer up to 10,000% or more processing power than one of AMD's chips." (didn't mention it was an AMD 486 chip though)

 

[psyclist]

Oh well, Intel went ahead and owned these results and fed everyone a bullshit sandwich for lunch at that launch day. Thing is, I dont really like eating shit though, so I dont think ill buy or recommend any of their products any more as a result...if youll excuse me, i have to go brush my teeth, get rid of this terrible taste left...

 

[IdiotInCharge]

Oh well, Intel went ahead and owned these results and fed everyone a bullshit sandwich for lunch at that launch day. Thing is, I dont really like eating shit though, so I dont think ill buy or recommend any of their products any more as a result...if youll excuse me, i have to go brush my teeth, get rid of this terrible taste left...

You should stop recommending anything, ever, if canned launch day benchmarks cross your moral line.

You won't find a tech company that hasn't done this.

 

[Nightfire]

So the games were retested:


As expected, the 30-50% advantages have been cut in half or less. If the 2700x was tested with a same ram config, it is possible that it may go down even further.

Still, Intel responds with a smug response of simply (paraphrase) "this still shows that we are the fastest gaming cpu".

 

[IdiotInCharge]

Still, Intel responds with a smug response of simply (paraphrase) "this still shows that we are the fastest gaming cpu".

Well, they are. Perhaps you read that as smugness, and they certainly don't need to use an insulated testing house to try and 'put down' the 2700X specifically, but it remains the fact.

 

[Dayaks]

Well, they are. Perhaps you read that as smugness, and they certainly don't need to use an insulated testing house to try and 'put down' the 2700X specifically, but it remains the fact.

“Best” doesn’t always mean highest performing.

Besides there’s a lot of info missing. What happens if the processor is flawed and has shit minimums? We’d never know.

Intel were douche cannoes about this whole thing. Honestly this bothers me more than GPP everyone else was fired up about.

 

[IdiotInCharge]

“Best” doesn’t always mean highest performing.

No question! Well, both have to be very well-defined, and they could certainly be defined to be the same thing, but no assumptions should be made without said definitions. Generally speaking, Intel has the greater body of existing review work that they can lean on for this statement, so we can say that they're more or less correct.

Besides there’s a lot of info missing. What happens if the processor is flawed and has shit minimums? We’d never know.

Well, I'd never rely on Intel to tell me that

While the testing does seem broad, a complete lack of frametime analysis really does invalidate its applicability.

Intel were douche cannoes about this whole thing. Honestly this bothers me more than GPP everyone else was fired up about.

I consider both to be artifacts of corporations doing what corporations do. I expect misleading asshattery; I've seen it (and Kyle has reported on it, among others) from every company we purchase products from today. It's not that 'Intel' or 'Nvidia' are evil- they're just doing what corporations in their respective positions tend to do.

Now, that doesn't excuse their more egregious actions, but for me, they rise only to a level of annoyance. I'm going to buy and recommend to others to buy whatever best fits the application regardless. If AMD, who looks like the victim today, wants to move products, they need to outperform. Simple as that.

 

[Sulphademus]

I had never heard of Principled Technologies before this fiasco. Now I know that they are as useful as cat vomit in your shoe.

Unfortunately for the public, I know of tech-unsavvy gamers who would have been swayed by this. But how PT thought the enthusiast crowd wasn't going to call them out is beyond me though.

 

[psyclist]

I consider both to be artifacts of corporations doing what corporations do. I expect misleading asshattery; I've seen it (and Kyle has reported on it, among others) from every company we purchase products from today. It's not that 'Intel' or 'Nvidia' are evil- they're just doing what corporations in their respective positions tend to do.

Now, that doesn't excuse their more egregious actions, but for me, they rise only to a level of annoyance. I'm going to buy and recommend to others to buy whatever best fits the application regardless. If AMD, who looks like the victim today, wants to move products, they need to outperform. Simple as that.

Fair enough, I accept your opinion. You dont really care because you expect BS and Intel fulfilled your expectations nicely. But I expect more and judging by the reaction of the enthusiast community, they do as well. I dont like being blatantly lied to by any corporation, and all while pushing the "PRE-ORDER NOW!!!" narrative to their loyal userbase. I will recommend hardware based on the performance, budget and usage cases as well, its too bad Intel will lose out on those recommendations based on the actions of the last two events they held. Seee ya Intel, its been a slice, maybe we can be friends again one day if you correct you current path.

 

[IdiotInCharge]

its too bad Intel will lose out on those recommendations based on the actions of the last two events they held. Seee ya Intel, its been a slice, maybe we can be friends again one day if you correct you current path.

If you mean this, then:

I will recommend hardware based on the performance, budget and usage cases

...you don't mean this.

And yeah, I'm picking on you a bit, and I realize that you mean 'except Intel', but I think that it's important to point out. I refuse to subscribe to the tribalism that you seem to ascribe to the entire enthusiast community. I'm going to ignore Intel's BS and Nvidia's BS and AMD's BS if they ever get back into a position to spew it again, and anyone else's, in favor of objective reviews like those here at the [H]. And I don't really care about 'community reactions'. That's literally the same is watching MSNBC and then repeating it as if it is the truth; worse, if you actually believe what you're repeating.

I don't let reviewers and newswriters tell me how to think with respect to the news, and I certainly don't with respect to computer hardware.

 

[Nauseous]

if you aint cheating, you aint trying. at least that is what i've always been told.

 

[IdiotInCharge]

if you aint cheating, you aint trying. at least that is what i've always been told.

...by a US Army lawyer of the rank of Major who was the class leader of a combat course I was attending .

[and while I abhor 'cheating' in the absolute sense, with respect to the idea itself, cheating really means putting forth innovative effort both inside and outside the box; with respect to the discussion, I don't find what Intel did with Principled Technologies is productive, but I'm also not an Intel shareholder and I get why Intel might]

 

[Nightfire]

Well, they are. Perhaps you read that as smugness, and they certainly don't need to use an insulated testing house to try and 'put down' the 2700X specifically, but it remains the fact.

That seems short sighted and apparent you didn't watch the video.

No one was denying that Intel has the fastest gaming CPU. There, it has been said the 20th time.

Some will want the absolute fastest at gaming and nothing more, price irrelevant. And that is fine of course.

Many others will like to know they are within 10-20% (not 50%!) of max frame rate while spending half as much. And that is fine too, but now Intel is just brushing it off as "well faster is faster".

 

[IdiotInCharge]

That seems short sighted and apparent you didn't watch the video.

Please don't get personal. Just reference what you're talking about in the video for your assertion.

Many others will like to know they are within 10-20% (not 50%!) of max frame rate while spending half as much. And that is fine too, but now Intel is just brushing it off as "well faster is faster".

Many others should do their research and apply basic critical thinking skills. Just reading the disclosures in PT's published work here and making comparisons to reviews from the community a reasonable person could conclude that they're not getting the full picture.

 

[Nightfire]

if you aint cheating, you aint trying. at least that is what i've always been told.

No, it is just more acceptable for tech companies to pull this crap. Some still have values and expect more from most industries.

Imagine if Ram just tested their new truck to be able to pull 50% more than their GM competitor. It was later discovered that Ram tested the GM in economy mode with only 4/8 cylinders activated. Truck enthusiast wouldn't just say "oh well, that is business and whatever, Ram still pulls more".

 

[Sulphademus]

Imagine if Ram just tested their new truck to be able to pull 50% more than their GM competitor. It was later discovered that Ram tested the GM in economy mode with only 4/8 cylinders activated. Truck enthusiast wouldn't just say "oh well, that is business and whatever, Ram still pulls more".

Well the RAM can tow 7% more than the GM, but lets pour sugar in the GM's gas tank so that the RAM will tow 100% more!

 

[Nightfire]

We are sort of brainwashed by Hollywood into expecting, and now accepting large corporations to be evil face-less entities.

The truth is real people work at these places and they should be embarrassed and demand better when crap like this goes down no matter how big they are.

 

[IdiotInCharge]

We are sort of brainwashed by Hollywood into expecting, and now accepting large corporations to be evil face-less entities.

The truth is real people work at these places and they should be embarrassed and demand better when crap like this goes down no matter how big they are.

These are not mutually exclusive

Think, 'assume the worst, hope for the best'. I assume that a tech company is going to work hard to represent their products well- perhaps a little too hard. I also appreciate it when journalists in the form of traditional reviewers and youtubers call them out.

This is always going to be a back and forth thing.

 

[Nightfire]

We are sort of brainwashed by Hollywood into expecting, and now accepting large corporations to be evil face-less entities.

The truth is real people work at these places and they should be embarrassed and demand better when crap like this goes down no matter how big they are.

Well the RAM can tow 7% more than the GM, but lets pour sugar in the GM's gas tank so that the RAM will tow 100% more!

Haha the fuel system is a pretty good analogy to system ram. In most cases, performance difference is minimal, but running 87 octane in a truck designed for 91 will make a difference. Also using 64gb or ram is akin to hauling around a 50 gallon gas tank I guess.

Now to more important issues. What is better - the 3.5tt (8700k) or a big 8 core 6.2L gm (9700k)?