PREY with Denuvo Cracked in 10 Days

[bigdogchris]

I understand why DRM is included at launch, since that is when most of the sales occur. But when it's cracked it should be removed because at that point pirates are having a better game play experience than the people who pay for it.

 

[DPI]

id Software removed it when it was cracked because, at that point, it was harming the experience for no reason.

I did mind denuvo in Doom very much and I am no pirate. Waiting a minute for authentication is hardly invisible.

Now, was your reply fueled by ignorance or disdain for pirates?

I don't know how id software had it implemented last year and whether that delay was 100% on denuvo, and "a minute" for authentication sounds like an exaggeration (no offense), but current Denuvo-protected gamesI just load the game and go, I don't even know its there.

 

[Armenius]

I'm still waiting on the evidence that Denuvo causes any performance issues. And no, some rando on Reddit saying it matter-of-factly doesn't count.

 

[Dwango]

id Software removed it when it was cracked because, at that point, it was harming the experience for no reason.

I did mind denuvo in Doom very much and I am no pirate. Waiting a minute for authentication is hardly invisible.

Now, was your reply fueled by ignorance or disdain for pirates?

ID Software removed once it was cracked because they had to per their contract with Denuvo or pay for protection they were no longer receiving it had nothing to do with the experience. You should know by now game companies don't care about you. They just want your money.

 

[Sonicks]

id Software removed it when it was cracked because, at that point, it was harming the experience for no reason.

I did mind denuvo in Doom very much and I am no pirate. Waiting a minute for authentication is hardly invisible.

Now, was your reply fueled by ignorance or disdain for pirates?

This is a serious question so mind my ignorance....

When did this authentication take place exactly?

I don't recall this game taking long to load to the title screen nor from there to the levels and I played the crap out of the game when it came out. I must have gone through the game 4 times over and more than that replaying individual levels. From my personal experience, the Denuvo implementation on Doom was 100% invisible to me and I didn't even know about it until news about it being cracked came to light.

 

[dgz]

This is a serious question so mind my ignorance....

When did this authentication take place exactly?

I don't recall this game taking long to load to the title screen nor from there to the levels and I played the crap out of the game when it came out. I must have gone through the game 4 times over and more than that replaying individual levels. From my personal experience, the Denuvo implementation on Doom was 100% invisible to me and I didn't even know about it until news about it being cracked came to light.

Used to take place after start splash screens. From your personal experience with the game, looks like you haven't tried it after they removed it.

I don't know how id software had it implemented last year and whether that delay was 100% on denuvo, and "a minute" for authentication sounds like an exaggeration (no offense), but current Denuvo-protected gamesI just load the game and go, I don't even know its there.

Oh, so you have no experience with the game but you're still an expert. Good to know.

DRM apologists, man. They exist.

 

[oldmanbal]

all console ports should be piratable day 1 - make a proper pc game and we will throw money at you day in and day out.

 

[Sonicks]

Used to take place after start splash screens. From your personal experience with the game, looks like you haven't tried it after they removed it.

DRM apologists, man. They exist.

I don't get what you're on about.

It doesn't matter if I noticed a delay with side by side before and after comparison. Nothing about the load time felt longer than any other game's load time to me.

In what significant way is the copy protection preventing you from enjoying the game? I will never understand the piss-poor argument that "DRM only hurts the honest buyers, maaaaan". There is no argument. There are no apologists. Just pirates trying to sound like legit buyers.

In the wild west days of the past, when copy protections were basically root-kits, it was harmful but we're way past that.

 

[dgz]

I don't get what you're on about.

It doesn't matter if I noticed a side by side before and after comparison. Nothing about the load time felt longer than any other game's load time to me.

In what significant way is the copy protection preventing you from enjoying the game? I will never understand the piss-poor argument that "DRM only hurts the honest buyers, maaaaan". There is no argument. There are no apologists. Just pirates trying to sound like legit buyers.

I see. Well, I guess I won't miss much by ignoring you

 

[Sonicks]

I see. Well, I guess I won't miss much by ignoring you

I'm glad you publicly posted about it instead of just doing it.

I feel better knowing I struck a chord with someone. Means I'm doing something right. He gave up quick too...didn't even want to try explaining how the "delay" impacted his gameplay.

 

[DukenukemX]

Why are people even making this news?
Don't you think promoting weak ass drm is good for everyone? publishers think their product is protected, but it's simple to remove for anyone in the know?

Denuvo basically brought a lot of people who used to crack, back out of retirement. The whole DRM thing died down for PC games for a while, but now it's back with full force. With it, a whole array of old and new crackers.

Also anyone pirating the game isn't aware how it got cracked, just that it has been. It's not like people are on HardOCP waiting to hear about the latest Denuvo games that's been cracked. They just go to their favorite torrent site and download without blinking an eye.

 

[OutOfPhase]

It'd be nice if there was a de-facto policy where all publishers would remove the DRM a year after launch. I know people fight and argue about the launch window, but I don't think anyone thinks there's much loss a year after launch.

And that way we don't get locked out of games we buy should we decide to play some classic 10 years from now. Hell, I still play Master of Magic.

 

[DukenukemX]

It'd be nice if there was a de-facto policy where all publishers would remove the DRM a year after launch. I know people fight and argue about the launch window, but I don't think anyone thinks there's much loss a year after launch.

And that way we don't get locked out of games we buy should we decide to play some classic 10 years from now. Hell, I still play Master of Magic.

The problem with this is that you expect studio's to put resources towards patching a game that probably no longer makes them big money. Ever play Fallout 3 on PC recently? You'd think with the recent Fallout 4 release, they would have patched FO3. If you fire up FO3, you'll get a message from Windows 10 about compatibility issues and the game tends to crash every so often. The last time they patched that game was 2009. More likely to see a remastered version than to see that game patched.

 

[Ebernanut]

I don't get what you're on about.

It doesn't matter if I noticed a delay with side by side before and after comparison. Nothing about the load time felt longer than any other game's load time to me.

In what significant way is the copy protection preventing you from enjoying the game? I will never understand the piss-poor argument that "DRM only hurts the honest buyers, maaaaan". There is no argument. There are no apologists. Just pirates trying to sound like legit buyers.

In the wild west days of the past, when copy protections were basically root-kits, it was harmful but we're way past that.

People say that because DRM has never done anything good for consumers and has caused a lot of problems for legitimate users. Ignoring DRM that has damaged hardware or installed rootkits that degrade security(which is indefensible IMO) we're still left with DRM that hurts performance, prevents modding, and in many cases has made old games unplayable. Like with past forms of DRM we still don't know enough about denuvo to definitively say what sort of issues it might be causing for users but from what I've read it can prevent modding which is reason enough for me to hate it, especially since it offers me zero benefits.

Your comment about anti-DRM people being pirates is not only offensive but extremely ignorant, I've listed several reasons it's bad for consumers but I have yet to hear a single persuasive argument for why it's good for consumers. Quite frankly I haven't even heard a good argument as to why it's supposedly good for publishers, it costs them money and sales and pretty much all games are eventually cracked. The early sales argument is the only one with any merit but I have a hard time believing that there are many people willing to pay launch prices that would instead pirate if possible.

 

[Maxx]

especially since it offers me zero benefits.

...

Quite frankly I haven't even heard a good argument as to why it's supposedly good for publishers, it costs them money and sales and pretty much all games are eventually cracked.

Exactly. Let's say Denuvo improves sales significantly (why else would they use it?) and they take in more money. Shouldn't that money be passed on to the consumer with lower product prices or with more resources thrown at development? It's easy to lump it in with raw profits and say they'll use it to expand their team and produce more in the future (which to be honest is oversimplifying it anyway) but how can we trust an industry where day-one DLC, nickel-and-dime digital goods, etc. have become commonplace? The assumption that these companies - and that's what they are - will use the increased resources for consumer gain is pretty naive from any standpoint. This is especially true with Bethesda Softworks involved. Oh, and of course they end up paying more for the use of Denuvo, yet another aspect of game development that is out-sourced.

That being said, Denuvo is tailored for specific games and its impact is usually negligible although the no-modding aspect is troublesome. I believe I've used Cheat Engine on a Denuvo title before so it depends on how it is utilized. It being "good for consumers" really comes down to a promise of a stronger market for gaming. The problem is that gaming has burgeoned (thanks to consoles) to the point where it's evolving like the movie industry, where tons of money is poured into casual fodder to line the pockets of executives and celebrities. Are movies really better today than in the past? They cost more to enjoy and half the anticipated movies this year are sequels in a series. Consider that 50% of a AAA game's development cost is spent on marketing and it becomes difficult to defend their use of undesirable "anti-tamper" DRM to get 10 more days of overpriced sales.

I realize this is focused specifically at PC gamers but heck, the PC market was viewed as a secondary "port bonus" opportunity for a long time. You do have Steam taking a good deal of the proceeds, of course, but then we have things like pricing in other regions to consider. We no longer have physical disks and we risk losing access to the game down the line...these are concerns shouldered by the consumer. While I'm not necessarily anti-Denuvo as it actually operates pretty benignly, I do take issue with the underlining mentality of the industry where consumers are assumed criminals when if anything the publishers and developers (No Man's Sky, Total War DLC, etc.) engage in practices I consider questionable.

 

[DPI]

Oh, so you have no experience with the game but you're still an expert. Good to know.

DRM apologists, man. They exist.

Cool straw man. And here I was giving your anecdotal "waiting a minute" to authenticate the game the benefit of the doubt. Sounds exaggerated, is all.

Regardless, my experience with current denuvo-protected titles is such that they launch instantly. If a point came that they took "a minute" to launch/authenticate/whatever the fuck, then I'll scream bloody murder.

 

[-=SOF=-WID99]

I'm still waiting on the evidence that Denuvo causes any performance issues. And no, some rando on Reddit saying it matter-of-factly doesn't count.

i only have a single game with it ..FC Primal .. never saw an issue with it ..game loaded fine from day 1 and i bought a uplay only copy for only $35.99 from a Ubi partner site .. NO steam (steam wanted 59.99 on launch day )
had no extra writes to my ssd drives like many claimed , did it work for that game to sell more copies ? probably not ..but possibly helped as it took weeks for FC Primal to get cracked..so maybe some users just bought it ,rather then steal it

 

[dgz]

Cool straw man. And here I was giving your anecdotal "waiting a minute" to authenticate the game the benefit of the doubt. Sounds exaggerated, is all.

Regardless, my experience with current denuvo-protected titles is such that they launch instantly. If a point came that they took "a minute" to launch/authenticate/whatever the fuck, then I'll scream bloody murder.

What straw man? I am just saying that wasn't the case with Doom. Sure, it wasn't a whole literal minute but a good 30 seconds on top of all splash screens. I am thinking those with flawless DRM Doom experience have skipped the MP

 

[Presbytier]

Hopefully they will release an update to remove it in steam like they did for Doom. From "uncrackable" to less than 10 days, hopefully this kills Denuvo's chances at any future deals..

I know I am going to get flamed for this, but what did Denuvo do to you? I am very much in favor of DRM free games, but that isn't exactly catching on no matter how hard GOG tries. Denuvo is defenitaly not as invasive as other DRM sceems that where basically spy ware. So I ask unless you plan on pirating the software whats the big deal?

 

[Ebernanut]

I know I am going to get flamed for this, but what did Denuvo do to you? I am very much in favor of DRM free games, but that isn't exactly catching on no matter how hard GOG tries. Denuvo is defenitaly not as invasive as other DRM sceems that where basically spy ware. So I ask unless you plan on pirating the software whats the big deal?

Steams DRM is unobtrusive and noninvasive so while I don't like it it's acceptable. Everything I've seen suggests that denuvo is the opposite in that regard, which isn't surprising since it's based off of one of the most invasive DRMs there has been(securom).

How about this, can you explain exactly how it works and why it proves that it's noninvasive? All of the past issues have been discovered by crackers, security experts, and end users(usually well after it's first used) because DRM developers don't explain how their DRM works and usually go to great lengths to hide it for obvious reasons. If we don't know exactly how it works then it seems a little premature to assume that it's not invasive.

 

[tetris42]

all console ports should be piratable day 1 - make a proper pc game and we will throw money at you day in and day out.

Oh THIS fucking argument. Yeah, you're going to pirate as a "protest." Hey, here's a thought, how about you don't buy the damn game if you don't like their practice? Oh hey, maybe you like the game, but don't like the practice, so wait and buy it in 2 years for $5 during a sale, so it more closely reflects what you think it's worth. Not that you have any power as an individual consumer either way, but collectively, pirating it sends the message "I want your game, but don't want to pay for it" which guess what? Leads to more DRM. Not buying the game sends the message that they fucked up on some level for the PC. There can be legit reasons to pirate something (especially late into the game's life cycle), but a "protest" isn't one of them. That's as dumb as it gets.

I don't get what you're on about.

It doesn't matter if I noticed a delay with side by side before and after comparison. Nothing about the load time felt longer than any other game's load time to me.

In what significant way is the copy protection preventing you from enjoying the game? I will never understand the piss-poor argument that "DRM only hurts the honest buyers, maaaaan". There is no argument. There are no apologists. Just pirates trying to sound like legit buyers.

In the wild west days of the past, when copy protections were basically root-kits, it was harmful but we're way past that.

DRM can be a real problem in the long term. There are several games that are completely unplayable on any system due to central server reliance. And like you mentioned, in the past, they were fucking rootkits. I agree with you that short term DRM isn't that big a deal and people may be making more of a fuss than they should at this stage, but don't act like it's never been a problem, nor will continue to be a problem if left unchecked. The legit DRM-concerned people who aren't pirates are probably just thinking down the line to 2 years or more where this starts to become a problem if nothing is done.

 

[OutOfPhase]

The problem with this is that you expect studio's to put resources towards patching a game that probably no longer makes them big money. Ever play Fallout 3 on PC recently? You'd think with the recent Fallout 4 release, they would have patched FO3. If you fire up FO3, you'll get a message from Windows 10 about compatibility issues and the game tends to crash every so often. The last time they patched that game was 2009. More likely to see a remastered version than to see that game patched.

Well technically, I'm expecting them to be able to release a build they already have for internal use, which doesn't compile in the DRM. So it isn't really a patch, they build it every candidate anyway.
But yeah, even releasing something they have would require nonzero effort. And this would be from companies which fairly often just fire the entire team after release, so yeah, as much as I would like it I don't see it happening.

It's going to be interesting to see how many current "classics" we're going to be able to return to in the future.

 

[Armenius]

People say that because DRM has never done anything good for consumers and has caused a lot of problems for legitimate users. Ignoring DRM that has damaged hardware or installed rootkits that degrade security(which is indefensible IMO) we're still left with DRM that hurts performance, prevents modding, and in many cases has made old games unplayable. Like with past forms of DRM we still don't know enough about denuvo to definitively say what sort of issues it might be causing for users but from what I've read it can prevent modding which is reason enough for me to hate it, especially since it offers me zero benefits.

Your comment about anti-DRM people being pirates is not only offensive but extremely ignorant, I've listed several reasons it's bad for consumers but I have yet to hear a single persuasive argument for why it's good for consumers. Quite frankly I haven't even heard a good argument as to why it's supposedly good for publishers, it costs them money and sales and pretty much all games are eventually cracked. The early sales argument is the only one with any merit but I have a hard time believing that there are many people willing to pay launch prices that would instead pirate if possible.

DRM isn't for the consumers. Denuvo would not have taken notice in the public sphere until someone online cried wolf and then everyone else started compiling conspiracy theories to go along with their own technical ineptitude to paint Denuvo as a boogeyman. Had that not happened, Denuvo would have been completely invisible.

Steams DRM is unobtrusive and noninvasive so while I don't like it it's acceptable. Everything I've seen suggests that denuvo is the opposite in that regard, which isn't surprising since it's based off of one of the most invasive DRMs there has been(securom).

How about this, can you explain exactly how it works and why it proves that it's noninvasive? All of the past issues have been discovered by crackers, security experts, and end users(usually well after it's first used) because DRM developers don't explain how their DRM works and usually go to great lengths to hide it for obvious reasons. If we don't know exactly how it works then it seems a little premature to assume that it's not invasive.

Steam DRM is the very definition of obtrusive and invasive, as you need to have its bloated visible program running at all times to play the games that have it. If developers didn't disclose that their game had Denuvo no one would even notice or be any the wiser.

If we knew exactly how the DRM worked, then that would kind of defeat the purpose, wouldn't it?

All these people who say they'll pirate a game instead of buying it because of DRM to teach the developer/publisher a "lesson" only causes more DRM to happen. Oh yes, you're teaching the industry a lesson... by acting like a child who keeps on proving they can't be trusted.

 

[zkostik]

That is no proper substitution. Main reasons are you have to PAY the full price to try in the first place, you have to bother with the refund process to get you money back and you have only two hours to determine both what settings you can run the game at and how is the game itself.


Not having demos hasn't stopped publishers from releasing buggy games all the time.


1. I don't trust what it does or doesn't do with my system and data
2. it's yet another failure point that could prevent me from playing the game sometime in the future

That is no proper substitution. Main reasons are you have to PAY the full price to try in the first place, you have to bother with the refund process to get you money back and you have only two hours to determine both what settings you can run the game at and how is the game itself.


Not having demos hasn't stopped publishers from releasing buggy games all the time.


1. I don't trust what it does or doesn't do with my system and data
2. it's yet another failure point that could prevent me from playing the game sometime in the future

1. True but demos didn't necessarily

You can't use Steam refund to demo a game. After multiple refunds they warn you that anymore may not be honored. The refunds are there to save you from a mistake of buying a shit game (i.e. No Man's Sky). Piracy is still the best and proper way to demo a game.

That's good info, thanks! I only had this done a few times as I generally don't get random games or wait for new ones to settle in. I guess with my statements it would be a good for digital stores to have either demo mode or refunds to compensate for absence of demos. Back in the days before digital distributions there were demos since you cannot return discs. Regarding DRM, I really don't care about it since I purchase my games. I honestly haven't had any DRM issues in a very long time so I'm still with with my viewpoint where folks that mainly complain about are the ones pirating software.

 

[Meeho]

Regarding DRM, I really don't care about it since I purchase my games. I honestly haven't had any DRM issues in a very long time so I'm still with with my viewpoint where folks that mainly complain about are the ones pirating software.

I'm one of those that hate it and complain about it but do not turn to piracy. I hate it so much that I can't stand Steam and it's built in DRM so I made GOG my store of choice whenever possible. The vast backlog of games makes it easy to often skip Steam even when it is the exclusive platform.

 

[H-street]

ID Software removed once it was cracked because they had to per their contract with Denuvo or pay for protection they were no longer receiving it had nothing to do with the experience. You should know by now game companies don't care about you. They just want your money.

LOL it's so funny how we are quick to vilify companies, yet we stand at their doors clamoring for their products.

 

[Presbytier]

Steams DRM is unobtrusive and noninvasive so while I don't like it it's acceptable. Everything I've seen suggests that denuvo is the opposite in that regard, which isn't surprising since it's based off of one of the most invasive DRMs there has been(securom).

How about this, can you explain exactly how it works and why it proves that it's noninvasive? All of the past issues have been discovered by crackers, security experts, and end users(usually well after it's first used) because DRM developers don't explain how their DRM works and usually go to great lengths to hide it for obvious reasons. If we don't know exactly how it works then it seems a little premature to assume that it's not invasive.

I will answer this by saying I would have had no idea Denuvo was installed with Doom unless someone told me as I never experienced any issues running Doom

 

[Ebernanut]

Steam DRM is the very definition of obtrusive and invasive, as you need to have its bloated visible program running at all times to play the games that have it. If developers didn't disclose that their game had Denuvo no one would even notice or be any the wiser.

If we knew exactly how the DRM worked, then that would kind of defeat the purpose, wouldn't it?

All these people who say they'll pirate a game instead of buying it because of DRM to teach the developer/publisher a "lesson" only causes more DRM to happen. Oh yes, you're teaching the industry a lesson... by acting like a child who keeps on proving they can't be trusted.

Steam doesn't require a constant internet connection to work, it hasn't prevented me from modding any games, and doesn't embed itself like malware. Having to run Steam is a minor annoyance that I would rather do without but my only real gripe with Steam and other similar services is that it prevents selling or giving away used games.

My whole point with the comment about knowing how it works was to point out that we can't really say that it doesn't do anything bad when we don't know what it does, history shows us that there's a connection between how effective DRM is and how invasive it is. I've been burned by DRM too many times to give them the benefit of the doubt and I don't think they deserve it.

I'm not sure if that last comment was directed at me but I never suggested piracy as a form of protest, I support voting with your wallet by simply not playing a game or waiting for it to drop to a price it's worth with the added baggage. For instance I bought DE: Mankind Divided knowing it had denuvo but I waited for a deal on it because of DRM and the story being cut short.

I will answer this by saying I would have had no idea Denuvo was installed with Doom unless someone told me as I never experienced any issues running Doom

I never knew that starforce was installed until it almost killed my expensive CD burner, if I hadn't noticed the performance issues from it dropping into PIO only mode it would have died the next time I launched the game because it was one fault away from bricking itself. I didn't notice that securom had embedded itself using rootkit techniques until well after the fact when it became publicly known. I never knew that tagges could make me lose hours of progress from a false positive until it did. The absence of anything obviously bad doesn't mean that there isn't anything bad just that if there is something it's not obvious, a lot of malware hides itself pretty well these days too but that doesn't mean it's not malicious.

 

[Dekoth-E-]

Why should they remove Denuvo? The only people that mind are pirates, it's invisible to legit purchasers of a game.

These buggy steam bypasses of the past few days aren't "cracking Denuvo" anyway, they're exposing weaknesses in the Steam integration chain that Valve is sure to address.

Terrible assumptions. I don't pirate or support piracy, yet I am against DRM. DRM doesn't work and serves no other purpose than to be a pain in the ass to paying customers.

 

[mls1995]

I bought it on day one. It's a pretty great game IMO.

 

[Presbytier]

I never knew that starforce was installed until it almost killed my expensive CD burner, if I hadn't noticed the performance issues from it dropping into PIO only mode it would have died the next time I launched the game because it was one fault away from bricking itself. I didn't notice that securom had embedded itself using rootkit techniques until well after the fact when it became publicly known. I never knew that tagges could make me lose hours of progress from a false positive until it did. The absence of anything obviously bad doesn't mean that there isn't anything bad just that if there is something it's not obvious, a lot of malware hides itself pretty well these days too but that doesn't mean it's not malicious.

The absence of anything obviously bad doesn't mean there has to be something obviously bad either. I am no fan of DRM, but outside of the inconvenience of not being able to do what I want with the game files there is no credible evidence Denuvo is harmful.

 

[Armenius]

I'm not sure if that last comment was directed at me but I never suggested piracy as a form of protest, I support voting with your wallet by simply not playing a game or waiting for it to drop to a price it's worth with the added baggage. For instance I bought DE: Mankind Divided knowing it had denuvo but I waited for a deal on it because of DRM and the story being cut short.

Yeah, sorry. Was just a general comment based on the other recent comments in the thread. Couldn't think of a way to delineate it.

 

[oldmanbal]

Oh THIS fucking argument. Yeah, you're going to pirate as a "protest." .

If I were going to pirate, I would like to claim that I'm doing it because it's a console port in order to create a sense of chivalry. Otherwise I would be happy to pay for a full PC game that I intend to put some time into.

 

[tetris42]

If I were going to pirate, I would like to claim that I'm doing it because it's a console port in order to create a sense of chivalry. Otherwise I would be happy to pay for a full PC game that I intend to put some time into.

Please elaborate on your logic then. What sense of chivalry are you getting out of this? It seems to me not playing it all would be the high road if that's what you're aiming for. If a game is substandard to you, there's only two real choices:

1. It's simply not worth it because it's such a bad port that you're not even going to play it. In which case, it doesn't make any sense to pirate it.
2. It's still worth playing to you, but not at new release prices. In which case, wait a couple years until it's $5 and it better reflects what its value is.

By pirating it, you're essentially sending the message "Ha! That will teach you to release your game on the PC, we won't pay for it!" They won't think it's because it's a crappy port, because they'll understand that you wanted the game bad enough to play it, just not pay for it. So the message you're sending is that they did a good job on the game, they just need to do a better job protecting their assets.

Now flip that around. If you don't buy it and don't pirate it, or buy it later at dirt cheap prices, that sends the message that they fucked up on PC and need to try harder.

If you honestly never thought about it that way, try to look at it from the perspective of the publishers. I honestly have more respect for people who pirate because they want free shit, the end; rather than someone pretending to be on any sort of moral high ground. Your actions are sending the exact opposite message to the publishers that you think you are.