"Possible" Vista love for macs? (Now with more XP on Mac flavor crystals!)

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Absentee

[H]F Junkie
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Front Page said:
Microsoft has confirmed that there will be no EFI support for their upcoming operating system. This basically leaves Intel Mac users out in the cold.
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Link

thoughts? :(

:Edit:
haha. nice title KaosDG :p
 
um, if this is a shock to anyone here i will be greatly surprised. if anyone thought microsoft and apple would crawl into bed with each other post intel, I’d wager a sever reality check is in order.

sad thing is, common sense continues to prevail. intel based imacs did not magically drop in price as people were blathering about, consistent with what apple never indicated would be the case, and the same seems to hold with this latest 'revelation'.

Sometimes i think we spend far too much time in the enthusiast shed to recognize the workings of the vast consumer city next door, and the probability of our unfounded dreams becoming a substantiated reality.

Was anyone honestly expecting Microsoft to issue a version of vista which natively installed on intel based apple products?

;)

-esr
 
Isn't BIOS an old idea in the tech world? You might think M$ would all Vista to be installed on both to help transition on to the EFI platforms.

But is there a real benefit to sticking with BIOS?
 
Rather than typing something up, I'll just quote Durandal64 @!Mac Ach:
Originally posted by Durandal64:
Either way, I fail to see why Apple should give two shits about people who want to run Vista on their boxes. Maybe you should be bitching at Microsoft for not supporting the hardware you want to run their OS on. As far as I can tell, Vista has been billed as supporting EFI for some time now. It seems that this is just another feature that Microsoft axed to ship it on time.

Now that Macs are on Intel, I'm suddenly seeing a very different tone from the x86 power user crowd. Before the Intel switch, it was all "OMG APPLES BOXES JUST LOOK PRITTY AND WHO GIVES A SHIT ABOUT LOOKING PIRTTY???????? I CAN BUILD (whatever) FOR LIKE WAY CHEAPER AND IT HAS A WINDOW ON THE SIDE OF THE TOWER WITH A NEON LIGHT!" Now, all the x86 people are like, "OMG I CANT BUY AN APPLE BOX AND RUN WINDOWS ON IT WTF?????? APPLE SUX0RS!!!!"

I thought appearance was irrelevant. If it's such a trivial concern, make some crappy Mac mini knock-off from a Shuttle case or something. Or maybe Apple's designs are just a bit more appealing than the techy crowd likes to admit.
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The original article states EFI will be supported in the Longhorn/Vista server version, which is due out in 2007.
 
esr2 said:
um, if this is a shock to anyone here i will be greatly surprised. if anyone thought microsoft and apple would crawl into bed with each other post intel, I’d wager a sever reality check is in order.

sad thing is, common sense continues to prevail. intel based imacs did not magically drop in price as people were blathering about, consistent with what apple never indicated would be the case, and the same seems to hold with this latest 'revelation'.

Sometimes i think we spend far too much time in the enthusiast shed to recognize the workings of the vast consumer city next door, and the probability of our unfounded dreams becoming a substantiated reality.

Was anyone honestly expecting Microsoft to issue a version of vista which natively installed on intel based apple products?

;)

-esr
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I think the bigger issue is the fact that it delays Intels EFI plans. From what I've read about EFI, its way better than BIOS is mainly because the hardware can be started with the software so you can do something like download updates for things without actually having to boot into an OS. I'm sure AMD is happy though lol.
 
I think "This basically leaves Intel Mac users out in the cold." is a ridiculous statement; anyone who purchased an Intel-based iMac with the idea that Microsoft would provide a compatible OS should have both done their homework and used a little common sense.
 
One of the articles linked in the original one says that there is EFI support in Vista for 64 bit CPUs, but not 32 bit. So I guess Mac users aren't totally out of luck.
 
esr2 said:
um, if this is a shock to anyone here i will be greatly surprised. if anyone thought microsoft and apple would crawl into bed with each other post intel, I’d wager a sever reality check is in order.

sad thing is, common sense continues to prevail. intel based imacs did not magically drop in price as people were blathering about, consistent with what apple never indicated would be the case, and the same seems to hold with this latest 'revelation'.

Sometimes i think we spend far too much time in the enthusiast shed to recognize the workings of the vast consumer city next door, and the probability of our unfounded dreams becoming a substantiated reality.

Was anyone honestly expecting Microsoft to issue a version of vista which natively installed on intel based apple products?

;)

-esr
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Price did not drop, value just increased.
 
correct, however prior to the intel based macs there were quite a few people in this forum who were blathering on about how the use of intel chips would mean lower prices even though no indication of such was provided by apple. this vista bs would seem to be in the same vein, again identifying the disparity between those with pie in the sky hopes and reality. I’m just not a huge fan of abandoning common sense anymore.

-esr
 
Okay, let's see here... a $400 Core Duo in an iMac versus a $100 G5 would make it cheaper... how, exactly? The only way Apple saves money on this is because it means they won't have to spend as much money developing chipsets and such.
 
EFI support will creep into servers first...server operators can afford to start phasing out hardware for massive upgrades, as opposed to the casual home user. Vista will have a Service Pack come out when EFI is mroe mainstream...it's pointless to include it from the start when the only boards with EFI are in Intel based Macs...which is kinda lame, seeing as Macs with specs needed to run Vista smoothly/nicely are not cheap, last I looked.
 
Torquemada XP said:
I think "This basically leaves Intel Mac users out in the cold." is a ridiculous statement; anyone who purchased an Intel-based iMac with the idea that Microsoft would provide a compatible OS should have both done their homework and used a little common sense.
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Why wouldn't MS want people to run Windows on a Mac?

In case you haven't noticed, MS is a hardware whore. They don't care what x86 configuration you use so long as you use Windows.
 
Rocketpig said:
Why wouldn't MS want people to run Windows on a Mac?

In case you haven't noticed, MS is a hardware whore. They don't care what x86 configuration you use so long as you use Windows.
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Reason for that is becuase M$ has so many different hardware configurations to cater to. Which is why Apple is in a league all of their own. They make software that will run well on the least of their hardware.
 
Cowcaster88 said:
Reason for that is becuase M$ has so many different hardware configurations to cater to. Which is why Apple is in a league all of their own. They make software that will run well on the least of their hardware.
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thats not the point though

why would Microsoft want to stop Vista from running on an Intel Mac when its another sale for them?!

i mean, i get that they won't put EFI support in now, when the only machines that use it are the Intel Macs, but for them to not put EFI support in just to stop people from running vista on the Macs would be....just....stupid, its another sale for them!
 
Cowcaster88 said:
Reason for that is becuase M$ has so many different hardware configurations to cater to. Which is why Apple is in a league all of their own. They make software that will run well on the least of their hardware.
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Other than EFI, what is so different about Apple's hardware now?

They use off the shelf components for everything. Hell, I even think their mobos are designed by Intel now.
 
4b5eN+EE said:
thats not the point though

why would Microsoft want to stop Vista from running on an Intel Mac when its another sale for them?!

i mean, i get that they won't put EFI support in now, when the only machines that use it are the Intel Macs, but for them to not put EFI support in just to stop people from running vista on the Macs would be....just....stupid, its another sale for them!
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While I agree that intentionally not going for more market share does not seem to be in MS's best interest, it shouldn't be all that surprising either. It would not be the first time that they shot them selves in the foot tyring to bend the market to their road map, rather then change the road map to better fill the market. Then again the market for Windows on Mac/Intel at this point is fairly small. When the market gets larger I'd be willing to bet MS becomes more accommodating.
 
4b5eN+EE said:
thats not the point though

why would Microsoft want to stop Vista from running on an Intel Mac when its another sale for them?!
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Technically, they could sell it and support EFI, but say "Nope we don't support Macs". This way Mac users could still buy it and use it, but MS wouldn't be obligated to give them full support.
 
It probably not a 'Lets not supports Macs', its probably a 'What can we cut now, that will keep us on schedule, while giving the SMALLEST blow to features/performance/revenue'

Since EFI is ONLY on Intel based macs, then that would be considered the SMALLEST blow to both features, and revenue, because the market would be small (come on.. who would take Vista over OS X if you have OS X already? well.. aside from the fact more programs are offered on Vista...) so very little money will be lost (a multi billion dollar company doesnt need the few hundred to the few thousand sales supporting EFI would bring right off the bat..), and the people that it is marketed to (Intel/AMD PCs) dont suffer a feature or performance hit, because thier hardware doesnt support/use EFI. For them, if anything, it saves money they would lose by having to delay thier release date.
 
Rocketpig said:
Why wouldn't MS want people to run Windows on a Mac?

In case you haven't noticed, MS is a hardware whore. They don't care what x86 configuration you use so long as you use Windows.
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And Office, and IE, and Halo... :p




Rocketpig said:
Other than EFI, what is so different about Apple's hardware now?

They use off the shelf components for everything. Hell, I even think their mobos are designed by Intel now.
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They most certainly do not use standard parts for everything. You really think the iMac has a standard ATX mobo? It's a custom-made thing. Intel probably builds (or at least some Intel-subsidiary or whatever), but Apple gave them the specifications of the physical layout.





Shameless Liar said:
Technically, they could sell it and support EFI, but say "Nope we don't support Macs". This way Mac users could still buy it and use it, but MS wouldn't be obligated to give them full support.
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Why would they want to do that? Microsoft doesn't (or at least shouldn't) care if it's a Mac that Vista's running on. It's just another sale. They don't lose anything by supporting Macs.





It probably not a 'Lets not supports Macs', its probably a 'What can we cut now, that will keep us on schedule, while giving the SMALLEST blow to features/performance/revenue'
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Yep. Another feature that Vista was supposed to have that got axed.



Since EFI is ONLY on Intel based macs
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And Itanium 2 systems... and a few other things. In fact, there are some EFI x86 boxes out there, but they have the compatibility BIOS-emulation, so Vista will run on them anyway.
 
The mobo is a proprietary form factor, but still uses a standard Intel chipset and everything...

I did find it interesting that the EFI feature was only cut in the 32bit version, and remains in the 64 bit version of Vista. I think MS is going to push a lot harder for 64 bit computing with Vista. Of course since the Yonahs are not 64 bit capable this doesn't really change the situation as of yet, but when Merom and Conroe debut later I wouldn't be surprised if Vista was capable of running on a Mac using either of those processors.
 
Black Morty Rackham said:
And Itanium 2 systems... and a few other things. In fact, there are some EFI x86 boxes out there, but they have the compatibility BIOS-emulation, so Vista will run on them anyway.
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Still though, my statement holds up.. the percentage of the market that has hardware to use EFI is so small the lack of EFI support with VISTA is the 'smallest hit to performance/features/revenue'
 
Narisatu said:
Still though, my statement holds up.. the percentage of the market that has hardware to use EFI is so small the lack of EFI support with VISTA is the 'smallest hit to performance/features/revenue'
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Oh, I wasn't arguing that.
 
Black Morty Rackham said:
They most certainly do not use standard parts for everything. You really think the iMac has a standard ATX mobo? It's a custom-made thing. Intel probably builds (or at least some Intel-subsidiary or whatever), but Apple gave them the specifications of the physical layout.
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My point is that while the shape may be different, there is nothing special about the motherboard that would hinder Windows from running on a Mac.

Macs all use pretty basic off-the-shelf stuff now, which is a good thing. Cheaper computers, cheaper upgrades, etc.
 
The way i'm seeing it...


Vista's lack of EFI support is what's keeping PC users in the stone-age.

Do away with the BIOS. I've been saying this for quite a while now.
 
Rocketpig said:
My point is that while the shape may be different, there is nothing special about the motherboard that would hinder Windows from running on a Mac.

Macs all use pretty basic off-the-shelf stuff now, which is a good thing. Cheaper computers, cheaper upgrades, etc.
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Except that they lack the BIOS emulation of the other EFI boards...
 
synergyo1 said:
A little off topic but...

There is a video circulating around showing WinXP being installed and running on an iMac. The video looks pretty legit to me. The guy running the Win/Mac contest is currently testing out the solution supposably.

http://www.engadget.com/videos/narf2006_xp_mac.mov

Link to video.
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So it looks as though this is real, and confirmed.

Slashdot is running a story that it's been confirmed and the prize won;

http://apple.slashdot.org/apple/06/03/16/1329206.shtml
http://www.winxponmac.com/
 
hrm, sketchy driver support and window's usual security risks.. oh wells. i can't wait for the benchmarks :rolleyes:
-esr
 
Has anyone seen exactly how it was done? I am more interested in a guide then a picture or video.
 
First thing I did was watch the video, which of course made me scream "WHAT??" (He just installed windows off of the regular cd?)
Well now that I downloaded the file it makes a lot of sense. Did he basically bypass the BIOS requirement by making the EFI load the installer?
Amazing.
 
ok.. this is probably a stupid question, but im going to ask it anyway.. Will all windows programs work? It is just the mac Hardware they are having issues with, correct?
 
Narisatu said:
ok.. this is probably a stupid question, but im going to ask it anyway.. Will all windows programs work? It is just the mac Hardware they are having issues with, correct?
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yes...think of it as running windows on a PC without installing some/most of the drivers...

slow video refresh, no sound, stuff like that (i know the slow refresh exists, i dunno about no sound, etc...)
 
so we should probably wait to try to use it until someone gets an X1600 video driver for it up and running.
 
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