Porsche Announces the All Electric Taycan Sports Car

Discussion in '[H]ard|OCP Front Page News' started by cageymaru, Aug 9, 2018 at 3:07 PM.

  1. cageymaru

    cageymaru [H]ard|News

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    Porsche has announced that their first purely electric sports car will be called the Taycan. The former concept car called "Mission E" will be powered by dual permanently excited synchronous motors (PSM) producing 600 hp, the car has a 0-60 time of under 3.5 seconds and hits 125 mph in under 12 seconds. The range on the car is over 310 miles on a single charge and the lithium-ion battery can be charged to 80% of capacity or 250 mile of range in under 15 minutes. Porsche is making a $7 billion investment into electric cars and their infrastructure by 2022.

    Future investment doubled

    Porsche plans to invest more than six billion euro in electromobility by 2022, doubling the expenditure that the company had originally planned. Of the additional three billion euro, some 500 million euro will be used for the development of Taycan variants and derivatives, around one billion euro for electrification and hybridisation of the existing product range, several hundred million for the expansion of production sites, plus around 700 million euro for new technologies, charging infrastructure and smart mobility.
     
  2. pcgeekesq

    pcgeekesq [H]ard|Gawd

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    It's not much faster in 0-60 than a 2008 Tesla Roadster, and not that much more range either.
    I have my doubts whether it can compete with Tesla's 2020 model, which is supposed to be faster and with longer range.
    Maybe it will be cheaper than a Tesla, but who buys a Porsche to save money?

    Best of luck to them, though. Competition is good.
     
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  3. That_Sound_Guy

    That_Sound_Guy 2[H]4U

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    This is good and all but lithium has a fixed life as raw resources eventually dwindle. Let alone the pollution aspect to make and dispose of them. The abandonment of hydrogen or other fuel sources concerns me.
     
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  4. BSmith

    BSmith [H]ard|Gawd

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  5. Jim Kim

    Jim Kim 2[H]4U

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    250 mile range in 15 minutes. Does tt uses LN2 to cool the batteries?

    Tesla may be in a world of hurt once the big auto makers start taking e-cars seriously.
     
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  6. Dekoth-E-

    Dekoth-E- [H]ardness Supreme

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    The range on the car is over 310 miles on a single charge and the lithium-ion battery can be charged to 80% of capacity or 250 mile of range in under 15 minutes

    If these numbers are accurate then explain to me why the fuck can't cars that need way less HP can't achieve 300+ miles per charge and 250+ in 15 minutes of charging? This has been and remains my primary beef with cars like the nissan leaf and tesla..Absolutely Shit range and awful charge times.
     
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  7. Spidey329

    Spidey329 [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I'm guessing it does charging on smaller cell counts. Tesla segments their batteries into large packs, this might do it even more.

    If you take a 4S8P (example) battery and break it down to 2* 4S4P units, you can charge at twice the speed. You just need more charging/support circuitry. Refactor it more than that, and you can charge way quicker.
     
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  8. Jim Kim

    Jim Kim 2[H]4U

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    Oh, so with more technology ($$$=Circuitry+Engineering) they can achieve faster charge times. That explains why it is not available on every e-car. Thanks for that info.
     
  9. thejokker

    thejokker Gawd

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    I like how they have improved the electric motor technology to be more efficient and therefore have a better range. Seems to be a step up from the Tesla. The biggest problem remains:

    "Three essential factors define the development. One: the weight. Two: the temperature. Three: the availability of raw materials.
    ...
    Finally, automobile manufacturers are also faced with two other fundamental challenges: the sufficient availability of raw materials and extracting them sustainability. Porsche is actively preparing itself for both."


    The availability of cobalt is the inconvenient truth that plagues the future of electric cars. The future is "not" bright for electric cars until a more viable battery technology is developed.
     
  10. seanreisk

    seanreisk Limp Gawd

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    It's a good looking car and it puts a little more on the EV table. Most importantly, it puts in some features that will force Tesla to consider updating their model line. Competition creates a better product.

    I would have preferred it if Porsche had built their first electric car as a 911e or a 718e, so that it was an option on a recognized product line, but maybe they're worried about possible EV problems casting shade on their heritage lineups.

    The Mission-E prototype that he is driving looks like it's been crashed a few times. I'm surprised Porsche let him video it.
     
  11. Twisted Kidney

    Twisted Kidney 2[H]4U

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    We need a price war at the middle-class consumer level to really push the prices down and the technology forward.
     
  12. DukenukemX

    DukenukemX 2[H]4U

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    You should be happy since hydrogen is a horribly inefficient way to generate electricity. Plus the cost of hydrogen is super expensive too.

     
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  13. Skyblue

    Skyblue Limp Gawd

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    Maybe thats what the two exhaust pipes are for? :)
     
  14. nutzo

    nutzo [H]ardness Supreme

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    Because nobody wants to pay $80,000 for a Nissan Leaf.
    More expensive batteries, expensive cooling, more expensive and complex charging circuitry, etc.
     
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  15. Wrecked Em

    Wrecked Em [H]ere for the GangBang

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    I was mos surprised to see it horse themed since that's sort of Ferrari-ish, and I'm guessing that's the price point of this car.
     
  16. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] Pick your own.....you deserve it.

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    This sounds expensive.

    Wake me when I can buy a 200+ mile BEV large sedan (Merc E-Class / Audi A6 / BMW 5 Series / Volvo S90 equivalent size) for $40k or under.

    Must have AWD, don't care about performance much. 0-60 in under 7 sec will do.

    Must not have self driving tech, and must have full instrument cluster.
     
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  17. BlueFireIce

    BlueFireIce [H]ardness Supreme

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    Going in a straight line is not what Porsche has been about, they are sport luxury cars that have amazing handling. They have often been of the nature that you can actually push them on and off the track and have them WORK. Tesla, 5mins into a run and it goes into thermal protection. Tesla also has to have a full charge, and batteries have to be "conditioned" before each launch, from the main page about this car: "This performance is in addition to a continuous power level that is unprecedented among electric vehicles". I will hold my breath until others get to take a production one out on a track and see what happens, however they have over all been good about stuff like this in their cars. Top Gear showed this very clear, where Lambo and Ferrari gave them two cars to test, but left crews with the cars to adjust them for each location, and stated they were not allowed to be run against the other cars in anything timed, Porsche however just handed over the keys to the 918 and said have fun.

    Because the range in the Tesla and Porsche are not from when the car is producing full power, its under normal driving conditions, so assuming the same efficiency of motor, how much it CAN put out has no effect on range unless you are mashing the pedal. Outside of that, don't expect this car in the same price rage of a Leaf, battery performance has a HUGE impact on cost.
     
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  18. TangledThornz

    TangledThornz Limp Gawd

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    Finally, an all electric car for the .1%
     
  19. XenIneX

    XenIneX Gawd

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    That 80%/15min charge is going to take 800 amp 3-phase service to power it. So, no way are you getting that in your home.

    Also, that's going to be really hard on the batteries. Thats, what, about a 3C charge? Done consistently, that'll cut the lifespan of your ~$15k battery pack in half.
     
  20. Dekoth-E-

    Dekoth-E- [H]ardness Supreme

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    No shit on the price..I'm talking pure technical specifications here. If a car capable of producing that kind of power can still have that kind of range when running normally and charge that quickly the rest of them have no excuse.
     
  21. BlueFireIce

    BlueFireIce [H]ardness Supreme

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    Yes they do. It's called price segment. Not sure what is hard to understand about that. It's like saying because a $170,000 600HP 911 exists, a $25,000 Ford Focus has no excuse for not having the same level of performance.
     
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  22. lostin3d

    lostin3d [H]ard|Gawd

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    Heard awhile back that Harley is doing the same for a bike.
     
  23. Dekoth-E-

    Dekoth-E- [H]ardness Supreme

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    You are confusing performance and batteries. Your argument is like saying a non flagship cell phone can't have decent battery life because it isn't a $1000 phone when in reality both the $400 phone and $1000 phone have the same battery. A few more cells to increase range to something reasonable like the porsche doesn't make a $100k price difference. Nor does the speed of charging of those cells. Neither of those two things have piss all to do with its price. Its price is derived from its speed, handling and name. Battery price of the cars is going to be within the same ballpark. I mean obviously the leaf is going to have shit range because it is a shit car that runs off basically AA batteries sold to people who just want to be pretentious. The Tesla on the other hand has no damn excuse for why it cannot match that kind of range and charge timee.
     
  24. LuxTerra

    LuxTerra [H]Lite

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    I like Tesla, but the Model S is really a highway cruiser that they allow extreme currents to be pulled from the battery for insane 0-60 times. It's neat, but 0-60 has hardly been the best benchmark for sport cars. That's more of a American muscle car benchmark and since a lot of us are in America, it's our go too even if it's a poor benchmark. Consider it the FPS junkie vs HardOCP GPU reviews. The real test of a sports car has always been the balance between power, weight and suspension/chassis dynamics resulting in how nimble it is. That is to say, can it transition smoothly from corner to corner, does it flow or is it stop, corner slowly, and then accelerate like mad? The Mita and S2000 are great sports cars, but are terrible at 0-60 times. The S2000s handling in particular is absolutely legendary. Just look up really anything made by Lotus as well. Porsche has made some great sports cars, but many of their standard cars today are really GT cars; too heavy, too much luxury to be purebred sport cars.

    It's not that one is overall better than the other, that really depends on what you want the car to do. Sports cars, muscle cars, GT cars, etc. are all optimized differently and will excel at different things. To date, no one has really made a good all electric sports car. They've all been overweight pigs wallowing through corners...I can't wait for someone to get the formula right!

    The Model S is great, but it's never been praised for good handling and it can't complete more than a lap around most tracks as the battery overheats. I suspect, Porsche being a sports/GT car company has optimized rather differently. Anyways, different cars for different experiences, glad to see progress being made on all fronts.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2018 at 9:13 PM
  25. Eickst

    Eickst [H]ard|Gawd

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    Until they can make a battery pack weigh the same as a full 15 gallon gas tank - let's say 150 pounds including the tank - I don't think we will see a 'real' electric sports car anytime soon.
     
  26. pcgeekesq

    pcgeekesq [H]ard|Gawd

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    Some people just like to be slammed into the back of their seat when the light turns green and they mash the accelerator. 'Cause it's fun. For them, 0-to-60 is everything.
    YMMV.
     
  27. pcgeekesq

    pcgeekesq [H]ard|Gawd

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    Even if the electric drive train is substantially lighter than the gasoline one?
     
  28. LuxTerra

    LuxTerra [H]Lite

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    Absolutely and I noted that. It's just technically not a sport car experience then, it's a muscle car one.
     
  29. LuxTerra

    LuxTerra [H]Lite

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    It's partially use case too. Sports cars use cases include twisty mountain roads and race circuits. There's no battery technology on the horizon that will allow for a light enough battery to put out lap after lap fun; at least not at the performance metrics we're use too in this category. I suspect that Porsche has really made here is a GT car (a softened, luxury sports car). Again, that doesn't make it bad, it makes it great at what it is! All I was complaining about was grabbing the wrong metric for it and then complaining that it doesn't measure up. It's like complaining that your 911 has a terrible tow rating; it completely misses the point. This isn't a 0-60 optimized muscle car, it will do well only because sports/GT cars also need good power, but prefer far more balance.

    It's not a there's only one way to have fun, there are different ways to have fun and you should measure them appropriately. It's a fewer Intel cores at 5Ghz vs AMD at 32c but lower clocks. Which is better? Well, it depends. What do you want to do, what experiences do you want to have? There's definitely overlap, but each is optimized for very different purposes. i.e. complaining that the upcoming 9900k has a massive rendering gap to the 2990WX is a bit dense.
     
  30. Verge

    Verge [H]ardness Supreme

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    Seeing as how the main model3 that was promised years ago still isn't out. What makes you think there's any realistic chance they have the roadster by 2020?
     
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  31. BlueFireIce

    BlueFireIce [H]ardness Supreme

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    You have zero understanding of battery tech and cost.
     
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  32. HockeyJon

    HockeyJon Gawd

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    Came to post this. Also, as I recall, the stats on the 2020 Roadster assume an evolution in battery technology that may or may not take place. If I'm not mistaken, performance figures were based on a projection of where they expect to go, at least on the analysis that I had read.
     
  33. HoffY

    HoffY Gawd

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    HA! Do you really think they are even close to accurate claims?

    marking BS, is where my money's at!
     
  34. HoffY

    HoffY Gawd

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    errr, it think you have the bull by the horns. Its not the cell configuration that allows one to charge faster... (although a lot can be said for parallel charging but that only works to make things faster if you have a supply system that can infinitely increase or be no limiting factor, otherwise with the same supply, you will actually lengthen charge time) its the charging circuits capability combined with the cells ability to take charge without degradation(giving up life cycles) and/or catastrophic failure that really defines the speeds of charging.

    What you describe is simply splitting the exact same energy store into different ways of charging.. its the same energy going in... but its how many watts you can supply during charging combined with the cells capabilities that define whether series or parallel is best** and THAT is what will define how fast one can charge. Not the cells configuration as you seem to put it.

    What you describe here (if i understand you correctly), is only possible, as i've said, if you have an unlimited capability in charge power to allow for configuration change AS WELL AS cells that have zero limitations of being able to take the faster charge rate in the first place. But this is not possible in the real world when one quite often only has a fixed capability with regards to power supply limits and chemistry limits.


    **where 'best' is whatever definition/criteria one is after in there application.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2018 at 12:57 AM
  35. Verge

    Verge [H]ardness Supreme

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    My coworker ordered on when they had around 350,000 deposits. He got his last week.

    They've only made 64,000. The numbers don't add up. Either a few hundred thousand people are waiting on the AWD version(unlikely) or a huge majority of those orders are for the 35,000 model... which hasn't been made, and people don't think will be even remotely profitable.

    Tesla might have a serious demand problem, maybe making 5,000 cars per week isn't necessarily a good thing.
     
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  36. DNMock

    DNMock [H]Lite

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    Considering it's a Porshe, yeah I think those numbers are accurate. They will put out a car with those specs and the price tag will be whatever the price tag needs to be for a car with those specs. One of the perks of being an exotic car mfg.
     
  37. MrE

    MrE 2[H]4U

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    Say what? It must be my imagination that there are 3 Model 3's in my parking lot at work. A Tesla dealership down the street has them sitting on the lot. What do you mean the main Model3s are not out yet?
     
  38. l0k13

    l0k13 n00bie

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    The current model 3 being sold are the extended range performance versions which are $50K+ cars. Originally, the model 3 was marketed as a mass consumer car with a starting point of $35k. The cheaper standard range model is nowhere to be seen and they keep tacking even more expensive options.
     
  39. MrE

    MrE 2[H]4U

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    From the articles I've read, the base Model 3 was projected even by Tesla to be the rarest of the rare. Just having the autopilot added was 5k. The performance and Extended range models were planned as first out the door. But I do see your point. I doubt Tesla ever planned to play in the Leaf or Bolt space for an inexpensive electric vehicle.
     
  40. Verge

    Verge [H]ardness Supreme

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    The 35,000 dollar model that constitutes probably 80% or higher of the preorders.

    That's what I mean.