Playstation3 The fall of sony. LONG READ

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Nasty_Savage said:
Madden opened up the console game to a new audience (non-gamer geeks) and directly contributed to the Genesis' success, whether you wish to believe it or not. If you don't then that's your business and I can't really offer you anything else. Google it if you want, dismiss it if you want i don't particularly care...
I'd go a bit broader than that. It was because Trip Hawkins (then head of EA) decided to reverse engineer Sega cartridges. Sega freaked out, because they didn't want to lose the licensing money, but they needed publishers. In the end Trip and Tom Kalinske brokered a secret deal that gave EA some major breaks which allowed EA to give some mighty third-party publishing to the Genesis.

No question Madden made a huge mark on Sega from there out. Madden '92 on the Genesis was the foundation of the series to this day. While the details have changed (including that wacky Quarterback vision thing for this year) a lot of UI elements and concepts were all there on the Genesis. Sport titles for the Genesis ended up being 40% of all game sales.
 
MovieMan80 said:
Microsoft got to launch first this time, and will have a significant lead.
Advantage MS

Sony is currently losing money and cannot stand to lose it much longer, thus there in a huge restructuring effort and are laying of 10,000 workers.
Sony's a big company with many divisions. Their game division is profitable due to the success of the PS2 and PSP.

There machine is very hard to code for, more so then there competitors.
They're both hard to program for. Sometimes the easy solution isn't the best. Driving a stick shift is harder than an automatic, but you get better performance with the stick. The developers will learn to program for the cell and the tools will continue to improve.

They face the richest most powerful software company in the world who has no money concerns.
Advantage MS, but MS does care about money, they're just in a better position to absorb the costs if the 360 turns out to be a flop.

Microsoft is now on there second generation console, and has had the opportunity to learn from there past mistakes.
Sony's on their 3rd gen console and have the PSP on top of that.
Advantage Sony.


Microsoft will be able to lower the price of 360's and take huge loses to sour Sony's sales of it's PS3's Sony is not in a financial position to handle such losses.
The losses Sony's prepared to take is private to Sony. They're expecting to lose a lot of money. But they wouldn't be doing this if they didn't think they would become profitable. PS2 lost $0.56 billion the first year but had over a $0.70 billion profit the second year. MS on the other hand lost money all four years of the xbox.

Microsoft will be releasing it's biggest games for the 360 at Sonys luanch times, Gears of war, Halo 3 to further hurt Sony's PS2 launch.
Advantage MS. But only because of Halo. Until we know what games Sony will have available on launch it's difficult to determine who has the clear advantage.

Microsoft has secured tons of 3rd party devlopers they couldnt before, Even Japanese devs.
Good for them, Sony already has 3rd party developers.

Microsoft has a centralized online game network which appears to be very important to some console owners.
More info is needed on Sony's plan before this can be factored in.

Microsoft will have a larger more robust game lineup then Sony by the time Sony launches.
Advantage MS, but a few good launch titles could sway people into Sony's camp.

Microsoft has a large number of things going for them they never had before.
Sony has a large number of things going against them they have never had before. The worst one being huge financial troubles before they even get there sytstems out the door.

MS is doing more things right this time around, but I don't think they're in a position to stomp out sony completely. Sony has enough momentum and a large enough fan base that it would take a colossal disaster for them to not turn an eventual profit with the ps3.

Sony is keeping hush about a lot of their launch plans, what games will be available, where it will be released first, how much it will cost. Once more of the details are given it will be a lot easier to predict how they will fare against MS. Until then it's just not possible to predict whether MS will become the dominant console or if the Playstation will remain on top.

Good points, But one thing I want to clear up. Im not claiming doom for Sony never had never was. When I say fall of Sony I don't mean bankruptcy, I think there in a position to lose there #1 spot. And even if they do keep #1 I think at the very least Microsoft is going to put there back's against the wall this push.

It will be exremely difficult for Sony to stay profitable in there games division this time. And last I checked they don't have any other divisions making money. They will have to say uncle to Microsoft If this turn's into a Bank account versus Bank account battle. They don't have anything else to ride on, there execution has to be flawless.
 
It was because Trip Hawkins (then head of EA) decided to reverse engineer Sega cartridges

Interesting, was he interested in having EA make their own carts? And why Sega and not NES with the larger installed base? Because of the Gen.'s power?
 
It will be exremely difficult for Sony to stay profitable in there games division this time, and last I check they dont have any other divisions making money. They will have to say uncle to Microsoft it this turns into a Bank account versus Bank account battle. They dont have anything to ride, there execution has to be flawless.

And in sweeps Nintendo for the win :cool:
 
the thing you have to consider as well is that both companies are more than just their games divisions.

When looking at Microsoft, you can't say all the money MS has can/will be used to keep $XBOX afloat in the market if the market tells it to sod off. The same can be said for Sony. Plus, as their are more to these businesses than just games, its safe to say that more than just their gaming divisions contribute to their accounts. You could also say that if a division is especially profitable, they would be willing to wear a bit of a one time cost in order to increase market penetration.

Also, think about this

Sony is going to be using the PS3 to also sell BlueRay. So thats two avenues for them to get revenue, games and movies (sony would get a big profit from any of their movies sold, plus I am sure all blue rays produced also give a cut to sony as well, win win win). Thats worth taking a gamble on.

Plus if you read in the article posted up by whatever the name is

http://www.enn.ie/frontpage/news-9650845.html

he mentioned the operating loss, but, look closer

The PSP games console gave Sony's games figures a boost, with sales growing 79.1 percent.

gaming = good for sony

Sales of LCD flat panel televisions and video cameras showed some improvement but were offset by falling sales of CRT and plasma televisions, and digital cameras.

these areas look bad for sony.

The quarter's results also included restructuring charges of JPY32.9 billion, compared with JPY18.8 billion the year before..

this is what you do when you try to refocus your company.

Now, looking at all that, as a whole, do you think

a) Sonys gaming divisions are in trouble or not?
b) Sony needs to work a way to make some $$$s with cameras
c) Sony maybe needs to exit the CRT market?
d) Sony needs some new plasma TV products or focus more on the LCDs, where they seem to be making more money.

These big companys are more than their individual pieces and also mate, remember, the Playstation brand is very very formidable.

Worldwide Hardware Sales (End of September 2005)
PS2 - 96.01 million
Xbox - 22.5 to 23 million (unofficially estimated)
GameCube - 19.31 million
Game Boy Advance - 70.04 million
Nintendo DS - 8.83 million
PSP - 8.81 million
N-Gage - 2 million
PSone - 102.49 million

source : http://forum.pcvsconsole.com/viewthread.php?tid=8498&page=2

also something interesting

http://www.gametunnel.com/html/section-printpage-126.html

scroll down to the bottom for pretty, easy to understand, graphs.

The thing is, with over 200 million Playstation branded (PS1, PS2 and PSP) out in the wild, thats a shedload of consumer awareness. If most of those are in anyway way happy, well, I am sure a PS3 wouldn't be a very big leap would it?
 
MovieMan80, I'm in agreement with your conclusions with a comment on the timing of MS launching major titles on the date of Sony's launch. There's no doubt that Microsoft will release some major game on that date, but I'd call it even for the time being. Since the date for the PS3 launch hasn't been announced, it's hard to tell if the MS games to be launched that day will be ready in time. If Sony pulls a fast one and sells the PS3 on Feb 22nd, MS will be rushing a title that might not be ready. If Sony delays the launch until Summer, then MS has more time to plan and get their titles ready.

Until that date is known, I'd say this is a tossup for the moment. It's all going to be about timing.
 
Slartibartfast said:
Interesting, was he interested in having EA make their own carts? And why Sega and not NES with the larger installed base? Because of the Gen.'s power?
Good questions. Trip Hawkins, no matter your opinion of the guy, has major balls in this industry. He decided to after the Genesis because he was in a position of strength. He could negotiate with Sega, but not with Nintendo. Nintendo was threatning to cut off anyone who didn't follow their licensing agreements. The Big N was already going after Tengen and would certainly go after Trip if he decided to show some swagger.

This is speculation on my part, but I think Trip saw an opportunity to be *the* major player in the Genesis and make a lot of money doing so. EA is still doing this today with the purchase of Jamdat just the other week. EA (being the Darth Vader of the gaming industry. Evil, yet I still do sense some good in it) has always hedged their bets by playing all sides.
 
He decided to after the Genesis because he was in a position of strength. He could negotiate with Sega, but not with Nintendo.

Ahh makes sense. The escapst had an entire issue about EA (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/issue/14) interesting stuff. I think Trip even wrote a letter in to the issue after that commenting on it. All of you should go read the escapist, it can be pretty fascinating. I agree with you about ea = vader, they used to do some really good stuff in the early 90's and such, but now...
 
Kristo said:
the thing you have to consider as well is that both companies are more than just their games divisions.

When looking at Microsoft, you can't say all the money MS has can/will be used to keep $XBOX afloat in the market if the market tells it to sod off. The same can be said for Sony. Plus, as their are more to these businesses than just games, its safe to say that more than just their gaming divisions contribute to their accounts. You could also say that if a division is especially profitable, they would be willing to wear a bit of a one time cost in order to increase market penetration.

Also, think about this

Sony is going to be using the PS3 to also sell BlueRay. So thats two avenues for them to get revenue, games and movies (sony would get a big profit from any of their movies sold, plus I am sure all blue rays produced also give a cut to sony as well, win win win). Thats worth taking a gamble on.

Plus if you read in the article posted up by whatever the name is

http://www.enn.ie/frontpage/news-9650845.html

he mentioned the operating loss, but, look closer



gaming = good for sony



these areas look bad for sony.



this is what you do when you try to refocus your company.

Now, looking at all that, as a whole, do you think

a) Sonys gaming divisions are in trouble or not?
b) Sony needs to work a way to make some $$$s with cameras
c) Sony maybe needs to exit the CRT market?
d) Sony needs some new plasma TV products or focus more on the LCDs, where they seem to be making more money.

These big companys are more than their individual pieces and also mate, remember, the Playstation brand is very very formidable.



source : http://forum.pcvsconsole.com/viewthread.php?tid=8498&page=2

also something interesting

http://www.gametunnel.com/html/section-printpage-126.html

scroll down to the bottom for pretty, easy to understand, graphs.

The thing is, with over 200 million Playstation branded (PS1, PS2 and PSP) out in the wild, thats a shedload of consumer awareness. If most of those are in anyway way happy, well, I am sure a PS3 wouldn't be a very big leap would it?

Kristo I see what your saying and for the most part agree, but. Microsoft can lose another 1.5 to 4 billion and It won't really phase them. They have to much money coming in. They have 30 billion in reserve with Billions coming in yearly. Billions in profit that they can do whatever with.

Sony on the other hand has no money to speak of, there in the red, and have nothing to hold them up while they prepare to face Microsoft in a price war. they can't afford the losses. They are selling off assets as we type for Operating money while they pay for restructuring.

Furthermore as far as Microsoft goes there not losing billions of dollars a day, it took them 4 years to lose 1.5 billion on the Xbox. They can keep this up indefinately if they want, while they lost 4 billion they made 60. But the fact is there gaining ground on Sony.

Over the last months Microsoft has outsold Sony on Xbox versus PS2 several times. That was just there first attempt and everything was going peachy for Sony at the time. Times have changed.

I did'nt think about the bluray much though, ill have to look into that.
 
eblislyge said:
The discussions your referring to go like this, I make a post, I get called names by Sony Fan-boys and if I don't like it I have a problem.
I find it odd that your trying to call others fan boys when most of this thread is about correcting you about the broad assumpations that you've made concerning the game industry, most if it seeming to defy all logic.

Like I said in my first post your posts read as "OMG teh 360 rulez!!11," you've made yourself rather clear on this.

For the most part I'm done. This isn't a debate it's an intellectual slaughter of you.
 
CrimandEvil said:
The biggest difference for me is that I'll be able to play all of my PS2 games with the PS3 meaning I can skip the craptastic launch titles

why buy one when it launches at all then?
 
Molingrad said:
why buy one when it launches at all then?
Who said I buy consoles at launch? I got my PSU a few months after it was released but before they drop the price which was something like a month or two later. When I did get it I bought a copy of Zone of the Enders since it was the only real interesting game, I mostly rented for the first copy of months until around the time that Metal Gear Solid and Silent Hill 2 came out.

I don't know why anyone would buy a console at launch either.
 
Slartibartfast said:
I'm nitpicking here but last I read id was self-publishing. They are able to because they were making hundreds of thousands of dollars even in the good ol' commander keen days, and hence don't need to be funded by a publisher. Has this changed?
Activision published Doom III.

Sony is currently losing money and cannot stand to lose it much longer, thus there in a huge restructuring effort and are laying of 10,000 workers.
The layoffs were in the electronics division (TV's, Walkman, VCR's). None of the game studios. And EVERYONE looses money on the hardware ('cept for Nintendo it seems). But the money is made up bazzilion-fold with software and peripherals.
 
And keep in mind that Sony Computer, Sony Online, Sony Electronics and Sony Pictures Imageworks are different parts of Sony. Different companies within the company. So some of those links are not valid and would have no impact on the Playstation brand.
 
Read the first page and got sick of the OPs fan boy attitude. I see someone is trying to rationalize their rediculous purchase of a 360
 
CrimandEvil said:
I find it odd that your trying to call others fan boys when most of this thread is about correcting you about the broad assumpations that you've made concerning the game industry, most if it seeming to defy all logic.

Yeah like logical post you made claiming theres no games for the 360?, and that you shouldnt buy future consoles cause they might not have games.and you would be better off sticking with current ones. Or when you made a whole post bashing the 360 cause it didnt have any backwards compatible games?

Don't stop now your on a roll.


Like I said in my first post your posts read as "OMG teh 360 rulez!!11," you've made yourself rather clear on this.

Let the L33t speak out, I knew you would go back to that before long.

For the most part I'm done. This isn't a debate it's an intellectual slaughter of you.

I know it, im tired of being bashed over the head with classics like. Theres no games for the 360 and it's not backwards compatable, Or Sony is in a better financial position then Microsoft, and I lived it!!!
Stuff like that has truly Slaughtered my Intellect.


If youll bother to scan the last two pages of post's the majority of the posters have presented valid arguments and I had to agree with some of them right off the bat, even though the argument didnt go in my favor. They had validd points I had to accept. The only things Ive really had problems with are the three famous quotes above.
 
Ducay said:
Read the first page and got sick of the OPs fan boy attitude. I see someone is trying to rationalize their rediculous purchase of a 360

Nope don't own a 360, got a Gamecube(well actually it's my sons, Im a pc gamer. Although I may pick up a 360 later on. My son want's one.

And im not a Microsoft fan either, Don't care for the some of the things they pulled in the past to get market share from a few companys. Just making a few observations on the Sony versus Microsoft battle.

Besides would'nt a true Xbox Fan-boy say stuff like mines faster or my games are better or mine looks better, or something, anything negative.

My negative comment on the PS3 is that the Cell is harder to program for and that it may have low yields. And that Sony is charging alot for dev kits and licenses. Makes me a die hard Xbox360 Fan-boy doesnt it. And to beat it all I was quoting web articles. As far as PS3 itself goes there is nothing bad to say about nor have I, It is an impressive machine.

I have basically been lining up Microsofts Strenghts versus Sony's. Unfortunately Sony has alot of weaknesses right now.

Either way im apparently a Die Hard Xbox360 Fan, I just didnt know it.

However this little gem
I see someone is trying to rationalize their rediculous purchase of a 360
lets me know what side of the fence your on.
 
The layoffs were in the electronics division (TV's, Walkman, VCR's). None of the game studios. And EVERYONE looses money on the hardware ('cept for Nintendo it seems). But the money is made up bazzilion-fold with software and peripherals.

Sorry, the money debate is over, it's already been posted several times that they are currently operating in the red, and they have already said themselves they plan to lose alot of money this coming year.

However, there is some good news(not geico) they are restructuring and selling assets which with any luck may put them back in the black in a year or so.
 
eblislyge said:
No, they cannot simply just build on top of it, the damn thing is already sinking 3 feet a year and the Japanese already said that building higher was not the answer. I don't know why you keep going on with this. They have some of the best damn engineers in the world saying it's not possible.

They are looking at drilling techniques of strenghtening the Clay which is under the seabed.

With what your wanting to do they will need pontoons on the 747's in 2 years just to land there.


I think this quote sums up the continuity factor quite nicely...
 
Nasty_Savage said:
I think this quote sums up the continuity factor quite nicely...
I'm trying to figure out WTF he's talking about there, is it a comment on how large the X box was? How huge the 360's powerbrick is? About how the Japanese had to reinforce the island inorder to hold both consoles (which is why the Jap 360 shipped acouple of weeks later)?

;)
 
No, they cannot simply just build on top of it, the damn thing is already sinking 3 feet a year and the Japanese already said that building higher was not the answer. I don't know why you keep going on with this. They have some of the best damn engineers in the world saying it's not possible.

They are looking at drilling techniques of strenghtening the Clay which is under the seabed.

With what your wanting to do they will need pontoons on the 747's in 2 years just to land there.

Self-hijacked thread of the year!!
 
Slartibartfast said:
Self-hijacked thread of the year!!

My bad wrong forum wrong post, was a discussion about Kansai Airport. I had two forums open at once and Im half asleep, got my wires crossed.
 
eblislyge said:
My bad wrong forum wrong post, was a discussion about Kansai Airport. I had two forums open at once and Im half asleep, got my wires crossed.

No prob, I figured as much :) I just thought it was funny
 
This thread needs a random chuck norris fact to lighten the mood.

the original theme song to the Transformers was actually “Chuck
Norris—more than meets the eye, Chuck Norris—robot in disguise,” and starred Chuck Norris as a Texas Ranger who defended the earth from drug-dealing Decepticons and could turn into a pick-up. This was far too much awesome for a single show, however, so it was divided.
 
halojesus6ug.jpg

Lord knows it's my favorite game. ;)
 
eblislyge said:
I don't know why he got a PS3 off Ebay. It's harder to code for then the 360.
You don't know why because he didn't buy a PS3 off of ebay, he bought a PS5. Thats the joke. :rolleyes:

Now run along to bed cupcake, tomorrow is a school day.
 
The funny think is...That SONY's hype isn't a hype only anymore.The Msg4 and motostorm are real proving the system capabilities.CELL benchmarks are out there,measured by IBM and Other companys like mercury.CELL is already proven to be 10x times more powerful in many GPU task,than the best GPU out there,and the best part is,the Full programmability (im not sure i used the right word here..) of CELL,meaning the the developers have FULL control of the GPU/CPU CELL to do whatever they want,you are going to see things that the GPU's are only dreaming.

CELL and his purpose inside the PS3 is well known by many people now ( at least i think so..).Its Ms's hype that be downplayed bit by bit, by the actual hardware capabilities.Just wait a bit before you proclaim the MS victorious.Just look at the x360 sales in japan,they did worse than the first xbox,and still many of them selling on ebay right now,they export them back to US and EU for profit (they sell lower in japan) lol.If i wanna risk a prediction,ill say that i see ps3 hitting the 150m mark this time.And x360 to barely hold its position (because Ms didnt deliver what they promissed).

Why?Cause of its wider audience,the ps3 isn't only a powerful gaming system anymore,its a tool for modelers,animators etc.Sony and IBM are selling this baby with that in mind also,they want to sell it as a full fledged computer,they have full linux support,and this is only the beginning.Wait and you are going to see what im talking about,real soon...Patience is a Virtue..
 
arfi-gorgona said:
The funny think is...That SONY's hype isn't a hype only anymore.The Msg4 and motostorm are real proving the system capabilities.CELL benchmarks are out there,measured by IBM and Other companys like mercury.CELL is already proven to be 10x times more powerful in many GPU task,than the best GPU out there,and the best part is,the Full programmability (im not sure i used the right word here..) of CELL,meaning the the developers have FULL control of the GPU/CPU CELL to do whatever they want,you are going to see things that the GPU's are only dreaming.

CELL and his purpose inside the PS3 is well known by many people now ( at least i think so..).Its Ms's hype that be downplayed bit by bit, by the actual hardware capabilities.Just wait a bit before you proclaim the MS victorious.Just look at the x360 sales in japan,they did worse than the first xbox,and still many of the x360 selling in ebay right now.If i wanna risk a prediction,ill say that i see ps3 hitting the 150m mark this time.And x360 to barely hold its position (because Ms didnt deliver what they promissed).

Why?Cause of its wider audience,the ps3 isn't only a powerful gaming system anymore,its a tool for modelers,animators etc.Sony and IBM are selling this baby with that in mind also,they want to sell it as a full fledged computer,they have full linux support,and this is only the beginning.Wait and you are going to see what im talking about,real soon...Patience is a Virtue..

wow..... lol
 
Well i hope you like it.I did all i could to explain the situation as it is.From what i've learned till now.I 'll wait for x360 to prove it self a little bit more (until the 2nd gen of games arrive) if not,its going to be "official".Sorry but im a foreign and my english sux a bit :D
 
arfi-gorgona said:
The funny think is...That SONY's hype isn't a hype only anymore.The Msg4 and motostorm are real proving the system capabilities.CELL benchmarks are out there,measured by IBM and Other companys like mercury.CELL is already proven to be 10x times more powerful in many GPU task,than the best GPU out there,and the best part is,the Full programmability (im not sure i used the right word here..) of CELL,meaning the the developers have FULL control of the GPU/CPU CELL to do whatever they want,you are going to see things that the GPU's are only dreaming.

CELL and his purpose inside the PS3 is well known by many people now ( at least i think so..).Its Ms's hype that be downplayed bit by bit, by the actual hardware capabilities.Just wait a bit before you proclaim the MS victorious.Just look at the x360 sales in japan,they did worse than the first xbox,and still many of them selling on ebay right now,they export them back to US and EU for profit (they sell lower in japan) lol.If i wanna risk a prediction,ill say that i see ps3 hitting the 150m mark this time.And x360 to barely hold its position (because Ms didnt deliver what they promissed).

Why?Cause of its wider audience,the ps3 isn't only a powerful gaming system anymore,its a tool for modelers,animators etc.Sony and IBM are selling this baby with that in mind also,they want to sell it as a full fledged computer,they have full linux support,and this is only the beginning.Wait and you are going to see what im talking about,real soon...Patience is a Virtue..

Calm down there and take a breath, This thread doesnt have anything to do with how powerful the PS3 is, Since you didnt read the op it's about me making outrages claims and people lining up and kicking the crap outta my posts, Get it right next time!
 
CrimandEvil said:
You don't know why because he didn't buy a PS3 off of ebay, he bought a PS5. Thats the joke. :rolleyes:

Now run along to bed cupcake, tomorrow is a school day.

Even worse, everyone knows the PS5 is harder to code for then the Xbox 1080. I think Sony will lose 1st place to Microsoft on that launch to.
 
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