Pimax To Showcase Its 8K Headset And New Controllers At CES 2019

I wonder if they are using a 2080ti for the 8K? I believe I read that one problem was maintaining 90fps(or whatever is needed for this headset) but that was before the new gpu's were available.
 
Hagrid, if you do the math, even a Titan RTX wouldn’t be enough to maintain 90fps if we are talking about a true 8K signal (4K per eye @90Hz).

As the Pimax 8K is not a "true" 8K device due to bandwidth limitations as to what can be pumped across a single video cable, the Pimax 8K headset's input is limited to 2560×1440 for each of its displays. This is then upscaled in the headset to display on its screens at their native 4K actual resolution.

So, the Pimax 8K just needs a card that can deliver two 1440p (2K) signals @ 90Hz each which is pretty much the equivalent of a 4K signal @ 90Hz.

A single 2080Ti can manage 4K @ 60Hz but would be hard pressed to deliver 90Hz. A Titan RTX is only 10-15% faster, so also not quite up to snuff, but closer.

As long as graphics are dialed way back and/or foveated rendering is used to ease the rendering burden, then a 2080Ti should be enough for a Pimax 8K with their upscaling tricks - odds are the are also not going to do true 90Hz from the source signal but something like 75Hz or some other wonky tricks to get close or simulate it.

Right now, true 8k VR would require two 2080Ti’s at a minimum AND two video cable connections. The bandwidth of even the brand new VirtualLink connects couldn’t deliver what is required over a single connection as VirtualLink’s bandwidth for video is limited to only 32.4 Gbit/s... so it’ll handle up to 4K @ 120 Hz at best. At 8K the best it can deliver is 60Hz.

So for true next gen 8K VR, the real limitation here is the video channel throughput. What we need is HDMI 2.1 - something that NVidia hasn’t adopted just yet as it was just ratified. They should on thier next gen cards though... or with their 7nm Turing die shrink later this year. Unlike VirtualLink’s 32.4 Gbit/s, HDMI 2.1 can handle up to 48 Gbit/s as to bandwidth, and with display stream compression it’s good for 8K @ 120 Hz.
 
Supercharged_Z06 said:
Hagrid, if you do the math, even a Titan RTX wouldn’t be enough to maintain 90fps if we are talking about a true 8K signal (4K per eye @90Hz).

As the Pimax 8K is not a "true" 8K device due to bandwidth limitations as to what can be pumped across a single video cable, the Pimax 8K headset's input is limited to 2560×1440 for each of its displays. This is then upscaled in the headset to display on its screens at their native 4K actual resolution.

So, the Pimax 8K just needs a card that can deliver two 1440p (2K) signals @ 90Hz each which is pretty much the equivalent of a 4K signal @ 90Hz.

A single 2080Ti can manage 4K @ 60Hz but would be hard pressed to deliver 90Hz. A Titan RTX is only 10-15% faster, so also not quite up to snuff, but closer.

As long as graphics are dialed way back and/or foveated rendering is used to ease the rendering burden, then a 2080Ti should be enough for a Pimax 8K with their upscaling tricks - odds are the are also not going to do true 90Hz from the source signal but something like 75Hz or some other wonky tricks to get close or simulate it.

Right now, true 8k VR would require two 2080Ti’s at a minimum AND two video cable connections. The bandwidth of even the brand new VirtualLink connects couldn’t deliver what is required over a single connection as VirtualLink’s bandwidth for video is limited to only 32.4 Gbit/s... so it’ll handle up to 4K @ 120 Hz at best. At 8K the best it can deliver is 60Hz.

So for true next gen 8K VR, the real limitation here is the video channel throughput. What we need is HDMI 2.1 - something that NVidia hasn’t adopted just yet as it was just ratified. They should on thier next gen cards though... or with their 7nm Turing die shrink later this year. Unlike VirtualLink’s 32.4 Gbit/s, HDMI 2.1 can handle up to 48 Gbit/s as to bandwidth, and with display stream compression is good for 8K @ 120 Hz.
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I do not know what tricks they use or whatever, but it did run at the native 4K per eye but could not maintain it. So whatever they did, it ran but not high enough.
The math is good if you know exactly what they are doing and how they are doing it. I know neither. Just from what I read on their testing.
 
Hagrid said:
I do not know what tricks they use or whatever, but it did run at the native 4K per eye but could not maintain it. So whatever they did, it ran but not high enough.
The math is good if you know exactly what they are doing and how they are doing it. I know neither. Just from what I read on their testing.
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WUT? Did you not read my post? Native 4K per eye @90Hz requires a 8K signal @90Hz. They are not displaying a native 4K signal per eye from source. They are simply upscaling. They even admit that they are upscaling. It’s only 4K across both eyes, not per.
 
Supercharged_Z06 said:
WUT? Did you not read my post? Native 4K per eye @90Hz requires a 8K signal @90Hz. They are not displaying a native 4K signal per eye from source. They are simply upscaling. They even admit that they are upscaling. It’s only 4K across both eyes, not per.
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Ahh. It's the Pimax 8K X that I was reading about.
 
I like how these controller looks. Very similar to Oculus Touch which I like very much!

What I do not like is using LCD's in there. They do have Pimax 4K BE model which seems the best because of OLED screen. Also normal 5K version seems better than 8K with upscaling. I hate upscaling
On the other hand 200 degree FOV kinda demands at least 4K, native and preferably with eye trackign for foveated rendering.

Right now these things are ridiculously expensive.

Supercharged_Z06 said:
WUT? Did you not read my post? Native 4K per eye @90Hz requires a 8K signal @90Hz. They are not displaying a native 4K signal per eye from source. They are simply upscaling. They even admit that they are upscaling. It’s only 4K across both eyes, not per.
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One 4K screens per two eyes adds up to half-8K, not real 8K which is like 4 x 4K screens.
 
4 or 8K = 4 or 8 thousand pixels wide respectively, aspect ratio notwithstanding, so...

2x 4K = 8K if you stack the two 4K displays side-by-side... if they are on top of each other it remains 4K... :p
 
Ya I have the 8K-X on order. This is two 4K displays side-by-side at 90 Hz (8K width, but only half 8K height).. So it would be half the bandwidth of an 8K display at 90 Hz. "8K" resolution is very high, exactly four times the resolution of 4K. 8.2m pixels versus 33.2m pixels.
 
What is the best place to keep up with the latest VR news? I am craving real comparisons and breakdowns. I just find fluff and recycled press releases. I need benches, numbers. [H] I hope you jump into VR in a big way.
 
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I wonder if the 16 GB of memory running at 1 TB/s bandwidth on the Radeon VII will lend itself to boosting VR framerates on high resolution headsets like the Pimax units. Would it be the GPU processing speed that is currently the bottleneck or is it memory bandwidth?
 
Creig said:
I wonder if the 16 GB of memory running at 1 TB/s bandwidth on the Radeon VII will lend itself to boosting VR framerates on high resolution headsets like the Pimax units. Would it be the GPU processing speed that is currently the bottleneck or is it memory bandwidth?
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It's definitely the GPU processing. GDDR6 / HBM2 have plenty of needed bandwidth.
 
Vega said:
Ya I have the 8K-X on order. This is two 4K displays side-by-side at 90 Hz (8K width, but only half 8K height).. So it would be half the bandwidth of an 8K display at 90 Hz. "8K" resolution is very high, exactly four times the resolution of 4K. 8.2m pixels versus 33.2m pixels.
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Going to take a hell of a powerful GPU to drive an 8KX unless they gimp it to non-native input.
 
Creig said:
I wonder if the 16 GB of memory running at 1 TB/s bandwidth on the Radeon VII will lend itself to boosting VR framerates on high resolution headsets like the Pimax units. Would it be the GPU processing speed that is currently the bottleneck or is it memory bandwidth?
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Radeon VII have enough memory capacity and bandwidth to run two 4K panels at native resolution. Processing power on the other hand is definitely going to be an issue. It will be like trying to run single 4K screen at 90fps with half the ROPs and shader units.

VR is the best possible use case for multi-GPU setups. Each eye have almost the same image and these images do not share any pixel information. So each GPU could render image for each eye separately at the same time without causing any input lag or frame pacing issues.

Hopefully this and foveated rendering in games will be worked out until more mainstream mainstream headsets start to have 4K screens.

For now Pimax 8KX is a very expensive toy with LCD panels which by itself would make me pass on the product. 5K BE version with OLEDs sound more appropriate imho even if obviously won't have a sharp image
 
5K BE was a easy pass for me, Pentile with super SDE. I avoid fake resolution Pentile type displays at all costs.
 
guys FYI it's pronounced "PEE-max" and it's utility is "PEE-tool"
 
I have a 5K+ at home that's been sitting unopened in its box for a couple of weeks now. I am a Kickstarter backer and Pimax was supposed to hold onto my headset until the base stations and controllers were ready as well. But they sent it to me anyhow because their organizational skill rivals that seen in a monkey shit fight at the zoo. I used to be really excited about the 8K and 5K+. But after so many delays, lies and just outright incompetence on their part, I am now completely MEH about the whole thing. I could pick up a used Vive set for the controllers/light houses, I suppose. For now though, I think I'll just shoot a PM to Kyle and see if he would be interested in me sending it to him to review. I know he was pretty big into his Vive setup awhile back and I haven't seen him post much in the way of VR lately.
 
lostinseganet said:
I disagree. I mean just look at their logo it has "π" in it.
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Supercharged_Z06 said:
Are you sure it isn’t Dick-max and Dick-tool?
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sorry, too obscure of a joke... I was just referring to some non-native english speaking people calling it "pee" instead of "pie"... and the fact that it's asian-made and they are weird like that... I want it to stick I think it's good marketing, I dunno... blahhhh indead :p
 
Creig said:
I have a 5K+ at home that's been sitting unopened in its box for a couple of weeks now. I am a Kickstarter backer and Pimax was supposed to hold onto my headset until the base stations and controllers were ready as well. But they sent it to me anyhow because their organizational skill rivals that seen in a monkey shit fight at the zoo. I used to be really excited about the 8K and 5K+. But after so many delays, lies and just outright incompetence on their part, I am now completely MEH about the whole thing. I could pick up a used Vive set for the controllers/light houses, I suppose. For now though, I think I'll just shoot a PM to Kyle and see if he would be interested in me sending it to him to review. I know he was pretty big into his Vive setup awhile back and I haven't seen him post much in the way of VR lately.
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I'm curious to test drive a Pimax 5K+ to see how its 170 FOV (150-160 is considered sweet spot before too much distortion though) compares to 110 on Odyssey+ and others

Also based on 5K+ vs 8K screenshots (like below) I'd rather get 5K+ for multitude reasons; one its easier to drive 5K with a high end GPU, and two the 8K isn't native-8K input (like 8K+ will be) and is uprezzing anyway

pimax-5k-plus-vs-8k-screen-3-1.jpg
 
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odditory said:
I'm curious to test drive a Pimax 5K+ to see how its 170 FOV (150-160 is considered sweet spot before too much distortion though) compares to 110 on Odyssey+ and others

Also based on screenshots I've seen of the pixels 5K+ vs 8K, I'd probably rather get 5K+ if I was going to buy one since 8K is still using Pentile, not to mention 5K+ is easier to drive with 2080 Ti, and 8K isn't reading native 8K input (like 8K+ will) and is uprezzing anyway.

View attachment 145450
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Definitely would choose the 5K+ over the 8K right now if it were me, but a few big negatives here as well: Availability, reliability (both HW and SW), and that LCD pentile display blows chunks compared to what a good OLED screen can deliver.

Really hoping that Valve opens up a little with their plans as to VR hardware at GDC later this month. Would be nice if they gave a prototype demo and some target dates for their upcoming HMD, but then again this is Valve we are talking about and they tend to just like to sit and rake in cash these days instead of delivering anything to gamers. While their HMD is rumored to only have a FOV of 135, I bet the optics/lens system and screen hardware they've been working will be solid. I'd much rather take that and their knuckles controllers over what Pimax currently has. Just hoping Valve releases something by Summer.
 
Supercharged_Z06 said:
Definitely would choose the 5K+ over the 8K right now if it were me, but a few big negatives here as well: Availability, reliability (both HW and SW), and that LCD pentile display blows chunks compared to what a good OLED screen can deliver.

Really hoping that Valve opens up a little with their plans as to VR hardware at GDC later this month. Would be nice if they gave a prototype demo and some target dates for their upcoming HMD, but then again this is Valve we are talking about and they tend to just like to sit and rake in cash these days instead of delivering anything to gamers. While their HMD is rumored to only have a FOV of 135, I bet the optics/lens system and screen hardware they've been working will be solid. I'd much rather take that and their knuckles controllers over what Pimax currently has. Just hoping Valve releases something by Summer.
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YES. My love/hate for Valve couldn't be more strong. We know they're working on games, we know they're working on VR hardware, but they'll never give status updates, and if/when they do finally announce something, they'll do it without any fanfare like "here's something we've been working on, no big deal" (and the internet will melt down). I don't know if they're geniuses or just need to be baseball-batted -- probably both.

I think the knuckles controllers will set the new standard simply because they already have the game developers on board and AFAIK many have the prototypes. Pimax should probably just stick to HMD's rather than spread themselves thin trying to reinvent the controller wheel.
 
I agree with both of you regarding the 8K/5K+ decision. I was originally an 8K full package backer (light houses/controllers/hand tracking). I was expecting the 8K to be Pimax's undisputed flagship model, assuming that the Kickstarter actually sent me anything at all. And then it turned out that the display on the 8K is some weird 45° pentile LCD running at 80Hz that is further hobbled by an upscaler that wasn't designed for that specific pixel orientation. At least that's the gist I got from reading the Pimax forums. So when I was forced to decide which headset I eventually wanted to be shipped to me, I had to choose the 5K+ simply because it is currently superior to the 8K.
 
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