Ocellaris
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I mean right from the start, it’s not 8K. That sets a bad precedent for the rest of their claims...
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Supercharged_Z06
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Yes, the 8K bit is mostly marketing. Even if they only claimed 4K, they are still up-sampling from 2560x1440 using their HMD's custom built-in scaler which won't do displayed text any favors.
True 1:1 4k per eye VR HMD'S are still at least a couple of years out. The needed GPU power to drive them isn't quite mainstream yet... but most likely will be among the higher tier graphics card offerings by then.
True 1:1 4k per eye VR HMD'S are still at least a couple of years out. The needed GPU power to drive them isn't quite mainstream yet... but most likely will be among the higher tier graphics card offerings by then.
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Assuming that reviews of the Pimax 8K are favorable, would it be better to get just the basic 8K HMD ($500) and aftermarket controllers/base stations/ ($???) or go for the Pimax 8K bundle with 2 controllers/2 base stations ($800). I haven't delved into VR yet and am trying to figure out what would be the best way to go for the best price.
Replacement lighthouses are $135 apiece. Controllers are $129 a piece. I think the bundle deal is what you want unless you already have a Vive as separately they're outrageous.
Hagrid
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Woah. I did not know Vive's were that expensive. I had one or 3 of my sensors go bad and only $60.
Supercharged_Z06
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Really, if you want to jump into VR now, the Rift at $399 is really the best way to go as to bang for the buck, product maturity and software availability.
I'd argue that it will pretty much stay that way for at least the next 4-6 months. Pimax is a pretty small outfit and will need some time to mature before I would consider sinking anything into them as to product offerings. That said, yes, unless you are rich, you'll want the bundled version. Their approach of upscaling VR graphics to higher resolutions for display does help a bit, but it doesn't really address the fundamental VR resolution problem - which is that current gen top tier GPU's really struggle to deliver 4K resolution graphics at 90hz consistently.
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Well, they are launching a true 8k version with dual DP inputs as well, so not a couple of years out but a few months out, but yeah you'll need quite a bit of gpu power to run it native. However, Volta should be out at the same time so...
I think the upsampling method is fine as it appears to completely elminate SDE (based on reviews of the demo unit). Yeah, true 8k will be crisper, but it's a good interim step and allows SDE elimination without needing twin 1080ti's. If it pans out and reviews are good, I could see doing an upgrade in a year, but I want to wait and see what's next from some of the big players (ie Rift 2).
Supercharged_Z06
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Yes, I've commented on their true 8K "X" version with the dual DP inputs before.
See here: https://hardforum.com/threads/pimax-8k-kickstarter.1944225/#post-1043224513
And here: https://hardforum.com/threads/pimax-8k-kickstarter.1944225/#post-1043226295
While upsampling may help graphics look a bit better on the Pimax non-"X" 8K version offering, it will certainly not do the same for displayed text. (At least from what I've seen 4K TV up-scalars doing in that they tend to pretty much just further blur or increase artifacts in displayed text.) Note, this is NOT the same as super-sampling at a higher resolution and then down-sampling.
This Pimax 8K "X" version would certainly require two 1080ti cards or two Titan X pascals for VR use at a minimum. (AMD doesn't have a card with the prerequisite performance levels to effectively drive a 4K display at 90Hz yet.)
It will also be completely stillborn for VR use unless they can somehow get low level GPU drivers/support as well from Nvidia. (I.E. customized drivers specifically targeting their VR hardware approach of feeding two screens.) That's a pretty tall order. No GPU drivers to date have any form of support as to individual left/right eye VR synced rendering outputs coming from two separate cards. It would also probably require some unique support within SteamVR's drivers as well. I don't see all that happening within 6 months even if Pimax could somehow manage to deliver on the hardware by then...
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Ocellaris
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The best thing to do is absolutely not back this project unless you are fully committed to the possibility of never seeing hardware or your $500 / $800 again. Yes they made some cool demos, but they haven't been independently reviewed or taken apart. This Kickstarter is making too many claims with not enough to back it up.
BecauseScience
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That's good advice for Kickstarter in general but I don't think there is much risk in being 100% stiffed. The native 8k backers will get something...eventually. Quality and functionality might not be there but they'll get something.
That said, I cringed when I read a post from some guy who BORROWED money to back native 8k. I hope he never visits Vegas!
Supercharged_Z06
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I do wish them luck and hope they succeed, but I agree. Its like they are just throwing everything and the kitchen sink into the kickstarter so that it attracts as many sponsors are possible without regard as to the real world time frames nor efforts involved in order to deliver. Take the promise of eye tracking, it would require all kinds of driver support across the entire computing infrastructure from the GPU driver (that Nvidia designs/delivers) to the tracking sensors themselves and customization within an application's in-game engine as well. And then there is wireless support. This tech is a huge problem all by itself and unsolved for anything beyond the bandwidth that TPCast currently has with their support for a 2160 x 1200 resolution signal at 90Hz. (And their solution already uses compression to get there.) While all of this new tech sounds fantastic, even if they were funded to the tune of Chris Roberts' Star Citizen levels (150+ million instead of the ~$2.3 million they are at now), it is going to take quite a bit of time and effort to develop all of this new tech, required custom hardware/software drivers support on multiple fronts, and deliver it. I can see some of this happening in the next 2-3 years perhaps, but if they do manage to ship their entry level HMD by January next year, it won't live up to all of this extra tech hype. It will simply be a higher resolution HMD that relies heavily on up-scaling and offers an increased FOV over the Rift/Vive. Not a bad thing, but I don't see it as being VR Gen 2... more realistically VR Gen 1.5 with lots of warts as to software (SteamVR) and driver support.
They also have a track record in delivering the 4k headset, so less risky than a brand new venture. I would still wait for retail, though.
BecauseScience
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Video of the new V3 prototype showing physical IPD adjustment, PSVR style head strap, and DP connection.
It's the ugliest headset in the world.
Somebody on one of the forums mentioned something that while the Resolution sounds like it is a massive jump over the Rift and Vive, and that it will be sharper, that the actual visuals won't be that big of a jump because of the wider FOV. Something to do with the way the pixels are spread across the lenses. I am not 100% sure of the details
Somebody on one of the forums mentioned something that while the Resolution sounds like it is a massive jump over the Rift and Vive, and that it will be sharper, that the actual visuals won't be that big of a jump because of the wider FOV. Something to do with the way the pixels are spread across the lenses. I am not 100% sure of the details
It's the ugliest headset in the world.
Somebody on one of the forums mentioned something that while the Resolution sounds like it is a massive jump over the Rift and Vive, and that it will be sharper, that the actual visuals won't be that big of a jump because of the wider FOV. Something to do with the way the pixels are spread across the lenses. I am not 100% sure of the details
It's about the same pixels per degree as a Vive or Rift would be with 4k screens, ie 4x density than what they have now. 8kx2k horizontal pixels over 200 degrees is about the same as 4kx2k pixels over 100 degrees. The Oculus and Vive have 2160x1100 pixels over 100 degrees, which is roughly 1/4 the pixels. So it will still be a huge jump in density and clarity and most reviews bear that out.
Hagrid
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But where are the reviews that show this?
There are probably a dozen of them on youtube.
Yes, but Volta is supposed to be out in 6 months (right around the time this should be out), so there's your single card solution....
Hagrid
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There are dozens of people that are using them, showing how they are made, and using them and commenting, but no comparisons, charts, numbers, facts.
I hope Volta rocks then because dam prices on cards are still high!(since I am a cheap bastard)
What do you mean? We know the panels and their resolution along with the FOV, then subjective experience wrt ghosting and image quality with people that own Oculus and Vive. I'm not really sure what more you're after, unless you mean performance specs for PC's pushing it, which yeah, you won't get until review units ship. But if people that review VR hardware for a living say the SDE is unnoticeable and the image is vastly clearer than an Oculus or Vive, and we know factually that there are 4x more pixels per degree, that's a pretty good indication that they're on the right path.
Hagrid
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I want facts not going off of specs. On paper, yes it looks great! So do a lot of things that turn out bad. I want proper reviewing using Vive, Rift, and others side by side. Facts about FOV, res, etc.
Saying it looks good on paper is not good enough for me to buy anything. Maybe other people.
It's the ugliest headset in the world.
Somebody on one of the forums mentioned something that while the Resolution sounds like it is a massive jump over the Rift and Vive, and that it will be sharper, that the actual visuals won't be that big of a jump because of the wider FOV. Something to do with the way the pixels are spread across the lenses. I am not 100% sure of the details
Hagrid
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The 8K looks a bit better than the Oculus. The Vive in that pic looks terrible? I think I will stay with the Rift if those pics are accurate.
Pretty big difference, unlike the others you can clearly make out the decimal point and no SDE. The CV1 looks a little better than the 4k, but the 5k and 8k definitely a step up. We'll see in roughly 6 monhts.
Hagrid
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Not even close enough to dump a whole system for another. On top of that support. A step up but not a big one.
It's not just the iq improvements/lack of SDE, but the fact that you actually have peripheral vision with double the FOV. If I had a Vive it'd be a no-brainer, but given I have a Rift I'll wait and see what's next from them. But this looks extremely promising.
SweViver:
-Tried out Pimax 8K for the first time at @VRDays today - This is next-gen VR, no doubts! I'm in love
- its just as promised and above my expectations!
- No stretching at all, i really looked for it but could not see any distorsion/stretch. And this was the V2 prototype. The V3 is even better
-Tried out Pimax 8K for the first time at @VRDays today - This is next-gen VR, no doubts! I'm in love
- its just as promised and above my expectations!
- No stretching at all, i really looked for it but could not see any distorsion/stretch. And this was the V2 prototype. The V3 is even better
Hagrid
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Never heard of him. Then again, I don't watch much YouTube on stuff like that.
From the pics I saw, if accurate, it is far from next gen.
I have no idea who he is either. But it appears he owns both a Vive and Oculus and reviews VR hardware/software. So I'd be inclined to give his initial impressions at least a little weight.
https://www.youtube.com/SweViver
https://www.youtube.com/SweViver
Youn
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My understanding about the curved edges is that Pimax will take any VR content and stretch it, but if the devs include an option to increase FOV then Pimax will display things more appropriately. Perhaps this is why some reviewers noticed it while other didn't, they were merely looking at different content?
Great review nonetheless... you folks who were adamant that VR wouldn't last 1 or 2 years... any change in opinion now?
Great review nonetheless... you folks who were adamant that VR wouldn't last 1 or 2 years... any change in opinion now?
BecauseScience
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The kickstarter is projected to hit almost $3 million. Considering the risk of kickstarter vs buying a traditional product there's clearly huge demand for next-gen VR and beyond. VR isn't going anywhere.
Interesting reading about the technical issues the 8K is having and running 90 Hz. All of the demos have been running 75 Hz due to cable length issues etc. Not sure if they will be able to get 90 Hz working with only one DP cable on retail versions.
Supercharged_Z06
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Having lived myself in Taiwan for 3 years many moons ago, most folks in the US have very little understanding of Chinese culture in general and Chinese business practices in particular - especially when it comes to mainland China.
Give this Reddit article concerning Pimax a quick,read. It's pretty much spot on:
For those of you that went all in and are thinking that you are getting a truly epic next Gen VR product early next year, you may want to start reeling in your expectations a bit.
I'm not worried about VR. It's here to stay and growing, but next Gen VR is still a good year or two away.
Give this Reddit article concerning Pimax a quick,read. It's pretty much spot on:
For those of you that went all in and are thinking that you are getting a truly epic next Gen VR product early next year, you may want to start reeling in your expectations a bit.
I'm not worried about VR. It's here to stay and growing, but next Gen VR is still a good year or two away.
From Pimax:
"Our HW system support 90Hz, including the bandwidth of DP \processor\ driver IC. As you know, our orinigal solution is 2*HDMI. And then we moved to 1*DP. Big difference between these two solutions. The games can run at 90Hz on previous solution. But not so stable, sometime we have to spend ~1 hour to set up the demo kit. Unfortunately, the stability of high rate (>85Hz) is a little bit worse in the new DP solution in V3 prototype. So we decide to lower the refresh rate to 75Hz for the new public demos. And do more internal test from 75Hz to 85Hz. Up to now, the 82Hz is pass the initial test standard. And now we’re try to optimze on 85Hz. then we will do more compatibility and stability test. Since 90Hz is the upper limit of the whole system. Several hardware reasons might make the refresh rate drop: the clock rate, cable length, display adapter FPC, EMI desense issue. Contact impedance from different Video Card’s DP connectors."
It looks as if they're working on issues that cropped up when they moved from HDMI to DP. I have to assume that this is an issue that can realistically be solved prior to hardware finalization.
"Our HW system support 90Hz, including the bandwidth of DP \processor\ driver IC. As you know, our orinigal solution is 2*HDMI. And then we moved to 1*DP. Big difference between these two solutions. The games can run at 90Hz on previous solution. But not so stable, sometime we have to spend ~1 hour to set up the demo kit. Unfortunately, the stability of high rate (>85Hz) is a little bit worse in the new DP solution in V3 prototype. So we decide to lower the refresh rate to 75Hz for the new public demos. And do more internal test from 75Hz to 85Hz. Up to now, the 82Hz is pass the initial test standard. And now we’re try to optimze on 85Hz. then we will do more compatibility and stability test. Since 90Hz is the upper limit of the whole system. Several hardware reasons might make the refresh rate drop: the clock rate, cable length, display adapter FPC, EMI desense issue. Contact impedance from different Video Card’s DP connectors."
It looks as if they're working on issues that cropped up when they moved from HDMI to DP. I have to assume that this is an issue that can realistically be solved prior to hardware finalization.
Supercharged_Z06
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I really hope they can pull it off, but the technical hurdles that they are facing are not trivial, even for the up-scaling version of the HMD product they are trying to bring to market first. And I'm really just interested in their true 8K "X" product, but that's not arriving any time soon. See my last post above.
Transmission limits of Displayport are pretty basic things. Anyone who has dealt with DP and trying to get a stable high bandwidth signal over a long distance (such as a VR headset) is very difficult. Just to get a stable 4K 60 Hz signal on my monitor arm takes a 24 gauge cable. This is a THICK, heavy and not very bendable cable. You don't want that hanging off your head.
IMO they may be forced into a dual cable solution like the 8K X has to get it to run properly at 90 Hz. I will only continue my order past the kick-starter funding if they guarantee 90 Hz. Anything less is unacceptable and I will cancel.
You also need to look at the version of displayport. I am no expert in the following, so please feel free to correct me if I make a mistake.
Pimax has stated that the 8K will use Displayport 1.4 which has a maximum throughput of 32.4 Gbps. The 8K HMD is receiving two streams of 2560 x 1440, one for each screen. Those streams are then upscaled within the HMD to the native 4k resolution of those screens. A single 2560 x 1440 data stream at 8 bpp (I am assuming here) at 90 Hz produces a total signal bandwidth of 9.95 Gbps. Two streams at those settings will add up to 19.9 Gbps which is well short of the maximum available bandwidth of 32.4 Gbps. The 8K X version which sends a native 4K 3840 x 2160 signal would require 22.39 Gbps PER SCREEN at 90 Hz for a total bandwidth of 44.78 Gbps. Which is probably why Pimax has said that the 8K X would require two DP 1.4 cables and one hell of a powerful video card. So by the best of my limited math skills, a single DP 1.4 connection should be more than sufficient for the requirements of the Pimax 8K at 90 Hz. So it appears ato me that DisplayPort is not the bottleneck here. Possibly the chipset they're using to scale the dual streams to 4K?
One interesting thing I ran across while researching this is that DP 1.4 also has two other features: One being Display Stream Compression which is capable of "visually lossless" video compression up to a ratio of 3:1 which could expand the available bandwidth from 32.4 Gbps up to 97.2 Gbps. This would allow the 8K X to utilitize a single DP 1.4 cable just like the vanilla 8K model. DP 1.4 also introduces Forward Error Correction which overlays the DSC transport and addresses the transport error resiliency needed for compressed video transport to external displays. Needless to say, it looks as if this could be of use to VR HMD manufacturers.
Pimax has stated that the 8K will use Displayport 1.4 which has a maximum throughput of 32.4 Gbps. The 8K HMD is receiving two streams of 2560 x 1440, one for each screen. Those streams are then upscaled within the HMD to the native 4k resolution of those screens. A single 2560 x 1440 data stream at 8 bpp (I am assuming here) at 90 Hz produces a total signal bandwidth of 9.95 Gbps. Two streams at those settings will add up to 19.9 Gbps which is well short of the maximum available bandwidth of 32.4 Gbps. The 8K X version which sends a native 4K 3840 x 2160 signal would require 22.39 Gbps PER SCREEN at 90 Hz for a total bandwidth of 44.78 Gbps. Which is probably why Pimax has said that the 8K X would require two DP 1.4 cables and one hell of a powerful video card. So by the best of my limited math skills, a single DP 1.4 connection should be more than sufficient for the requirements of the Pimax 8K at 90 Hz. So it appears ato me that DisplayPort is not the bottleneck here. Possibly the chipset they're using to scale the dual streams to 4K?
One interesting thing I ran across while researching this is that DP 1.4 also has two other features: One being Display Stream Compression which is capable of "visually lossless" video compression up to a ratio of 3:1 which could expand the available bandwidth from 32.4 Gbps up to 97.2 Gbps. This would allow the 8K X to utilitize a single DP 1.4 cable just like the vanilla 8K model. DP 1.4 also introduces Forward Error Correction which overlays the DSC transport and addresses the transport error resiliency needed for compressed video transport to external displays. Needless to say, it looks as if this could be of use to VR HMD manufacturers.
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Nenu
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Depends how long it takes to compress/decompress the video.
Latency is an enemy of VR.
Latency is an enemy of VR.