picked up my A+ this morning, network+ is next

mkrohn

2[H]4U
Joined
Apr 30, 2012
Messages
2,345
Anybody with some advice for the network+ other than stay away from mike meyers books? wow was his A+ book worthless
 

Liger88

2[H]4U
Joined
Feb 14, 2012
Messages
2,657
I found the CBT Nuggets Network+ videos very good and carried me through the Cert without having picked up or paid any attention to Network+ specifically (had prior CCNA Network Academy courses under my bolt though).

That would be my start.
 

jadams

2[H]4U
Joined
Mar 14, 2010
Messages
4,086
Professor Messer. His A+ videos were great, I believe he has N+ videos up now too.
 

Red Squirrel

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Nov 29, 2009
Messages
9,211
Congrats!

I really need to look at certs one of these days. I just hate the fact that they expire. Spend all that time, money and effort and it's only good for 3-5 years depending on the cert. I'm not good at the theory side of things so it would be really hard for me.
 

EV42TMAN

n00b
Joined
Dec 4, 2009
Messages
12
I just watched the CBT nuggets for the Net+ exam. At the time I had next to no experience so they worked for me. I don't know if its been seriously upgraded since i took it or not
 

waderunner

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jun 2, 2013
Messages
1,117
I was going to say Network+ cert doesn't expire (got mine years ago). But I just looked, and starting in 2010 they started expiring them every 3 years.

I wonder if MS expires their certs as well? At least for the MS ones I have, they're valid for life, but are for certain versions of MS (2000, 2003, etc)

I think Cisco has always had a policy of their certs expiring every few years.

Anyways, congrats on the A+. I've never tried that one. But I remember looking at study materials, and they actually cover *a lot* of material in that test.
 

B1zz

Gawd
Joined
Aug 1, 2003
Messages
932
speaking from personal experience (i got A+ then Network+, eventually ended up getting CCNA) I would just skip Network+ and just go straight to ICND1 & 2.
 

mkrohn

2[H]4U
Joined
Apr 30, 2012
Messages
2,345
speaking from personal experience (i got A+ then Network+, eventually ended up getting CCNA) I would just skip Network+ and just go straight to ICND1 & 2.

Get to skip a class required for my degree by getting the network+ there's 6 credits worth of cisco stuff on the networking degree I'm considering. Currently I'm focused on programming but was considering the networking path. Honestly dont have to decide quite yet because there's 3 IT associates at this school and I could pick up all 3 on my way to a bachelors because of electives when I transfer almost all of them work towards either bachelors I'm looking at.
 

feffrey

Gawd
Joined
Oct 26, 2010
Messages
585
I did my network+ the same day as my A+ lol.
I think I just found some practice tests online to study for it. If you understand IP, subnetting basic switching, and routing you got it.
 

mkrohn

2[H]4U
Joined
Apr 30, 2012
Messages
2,345
I did my network+ the same day as my A+ lol.
I think I just found some practice tests online to study for it. If you understand IP, subnetting basic switching, and routing you got it.

yeah I'm leaning towards just going in the morning and getting this one out of the way. I flipped to the back of the mike meyers book and just started rewriting the glossary a bit to push terminology into my head better because wow is that guy ever a bad writer. I wish a real exam cram book existed. I feel like 99% of a mike meyers book is completely worthless. I've been flipping through and looking at pictures and looking for the boxes that say EXAM TIP while ignoring the rest
 

Mackintire

2[H]4U
Joined
Jun 28, 2004
Messages
2,931
Meyer's A+ book is great. I'm surprised to hear anyone bashing it. If you know the book you can pass the A+ test.

The N+ book is a completely different story, as it has massive knowledge gaps and some minor misinformation. Keep in mind that it's not a technical brain dump book, it's a easy reading book to understand concepts. If you have a hard time memorizing dense technical books the Meyer N+ is a useful reference, just don't depend on it to pass the exam :eek:


Professor Messer is a good resource, as is the exam cram book for N+ ( a bit dryer read, but it covers many little details) CBT nuggets N+ video series is fair.
 

Liger88

2[H]4U
Joined
Feb 14, 2012
Messages
2,657
The N+ book is a completely different story, as it has massive knowledge gaps and some minor misinformation.


I've noticed this with ALL CompTIA Exams I've taken thus far (A+, Server+, Network+, and eventually Security+). Don't take the Exams from CompTIA too seriously. For a general exam it's great, but there isn't just some misinfo, there is a butt load. The problem lies with experience and more in depth knowledge you gain. You really want to knock any of CompTIA's exams out before you start getting more into the technical aspect of the subject matter. It'll make life hell studying, if for instance you have been a computer technician for 15 years and then have to see some of the BS answers for A+. Or Network+ after you finished the Cisco CCNA Course and see how many wrong answers are seen as right by CompTIA.

Just something to be careful of. All the materials listed here are good, but just try not to take anything coming out of CompTIA too seriously. It'll give you headaches and stress you out unnecessarily. If they say you're wrong, then accept it, remember it for the exam, and after the exam is over brain dump it and remember the real right answer.
 

mkrohn

2[H]4U
Joined
Apr 30, 2012
Messages
2,345
I've noticed this with ALL CompTIA Exams I've taken thus far (A+, Server+, Network+, and eventually Security+). Don't take the Exams from CompTIA too seriously. For a general exam it's great, but there isn't just some misinfo, there is a butt load. The problem lies with experience and more in depth knowledge you gain. You really want to knock any of CompTIA's exams out before you start getting more into the technical aspect of the subject matter. It'll make life hell studying, if for instance you have been a computer technician for 15 years and then have to see some of the BS answers for A+. Or Network+ after you finished the Cisco CCNA Course and see how many wrong answers are seen as right by CompTIA.

Just something to be careful of. All the materials listed here are good, but just try not to take anything coming out of CompTIA too seriously. It'll give you headaches and stress you out unnecessarily. If they say you're wrong, then accept it, remember it for the exam, and after the exam is over brain dump it and remember the real right answer.
yes I've been seriously into computer HW for a good 15 years and have done a LOT on the hardware side and I have done a ton with linux servers so the A+ was easy. I might end up doing the linux one but I'm afraid the test will be too stupid for me to understand just like some of the ones I missed on the A+ I apparently missed one on the A+ where they said you could use the same drive more than once and it said bob wanted the fastest IDE drives available select the picture... the 2 fast ones pictured were SATA so I picked the 7200RPM IDE drive and somehow got it wrong WTF? oh well I passed and moved on. The network+ I still haven't gotten around to taking but I just got my voucher and book last night so maybe tomorrow I'll have a chance to review the book for a bit so I can just go take it
 

mkrohn

2[H]4U
Joined
Apr 30, 2012
Messages
2,345
Meyer's A+ book is great. I'm surprised to hear anyone bashing it. If you know the book you can pass the A+ test.

well it went completely off topic like crazy and was a giant time waster. Not to mention how many answers his answer key told me were wrong even though I know I was right.

I am a big fan of just exam cramming and the meyers books are honestly worthless for cramming because of all the BS filling the pages.
 

stunning

Limp Gawd
Joined
Sep 14, 2006
Messages
317
CBT Nugget is all you will need. That was my first cert I studied for and passed.
 

mkrohn

2[H]4U
Joined
Apr 30, 2012
Messages
2,345
I have some MTA's that I can take for additional credits... anybody have experience with those? Am I reading the map correctly and those are below MCSE type ones?
 

Gomar

Limp Gawd
Joined
Oct 25, 2007
Messages
294
I got out of the cert chasing 5 years ago. I found it to be a waste of money and time. Did have the Meyer's book, and took $600 classes. Never took the comptia nor the Microsoft exams.
Fact is none of my friends from college who went for Java certs or A+ or MCSE or anything else got a job; all went for another career; one in fact does lamp changes in the subways after getting a BS in comp sci.

I havent been asked if I have an A+ or MCSE by employers in ages; if you could do the work fine, if not well too bad.
 

mkrohn

2[H]4U
Joined
Apr 30, 2012
Messages
2,345
I got out of the cert chasing 5 years ago. I found it to be a waste of money and time. Did have the Meyer's book, and took $600 classes. Never took the comptia nor the Microsoft exams.
Fact is none of my friends from college who went for Java certs or A+ or MCSE or anything else got a job; all went for another career; one in fact does lamp changes in the subways after getting a BS in comp sci.

I havent been asked if I have an A+ or MCSE by employers in ages; if you could do the work fine, if not well too bad.

All that means is those guys that got those certs weren't even real techies anyway. They chose IT for the paycheck. Without a desire for IT you will just end up changing lamps in the subway.

Also dude you didn't read through the thread at all and just saw oh a cert thread, let me just go post BS....

No real techie would drop $600 to take classes anyway... I'm simply reading through a book and taking exams. Getting certs and testing out of classes so I'm SAVING money and a ton of time while picking up certs. There isn't a single downside to what I'm doing but you couldn't be bothered to read anything other than the title or you'd know this.

Anyway so far I've picked up the A+ and network+ but I have to test out of more gen ed BS before I pick the next tech one. MTA Exam 98-365 looks like the easiest one for skipping another class.
 

djflow195

Weaksauce
Joined
Sep 6, 2011
Messages
102
I recommend getting the Sec+. The Sec+ automatically re-ups the A+ and Net+ so all you need to do is pass the Sec+ every three years to stay current on them all.
 

mkrohn

2[H]4U
Joined
Apr 30, 2012
Messages
2,345
I recommend getting the Net+ and then getting the Sec+. The Sec+ automatically re-ups the A+ and Net+ so all you need to do is pass the Sec+ every three years to stay current on them all.
Yeah for some reason they like Linux+ and sec+ at the school. They're in my list to knock out either Xmas break or spring break depending on how fast I can finish up the gen ed stuff that I still need to take care of. The A+ and net+ were within the past few months so they wont need to be renewed for a while anyway.
 

stiltner

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Mar 16, 2000
Messages
10,669
If you need help, let me know, I'm a CompTIA Mentor, and hopefully a SME for them sometime within the next 12 months.

I got a 15% voucher code if ya need to save some bucks on the website ;)
 

Gomar

Limp Gawd
Joined
Oct 25, 2007
Messages
294
all you need to do is pass the Sec+ every three years to stay current on them all.

ok, and that's one more reason I wont be going for any of it.
The only people making $ are those pushing certs, books, tests down chumps' throats.

If in fact certs were required or in demand then why have all IT, tech schools and cert classes shut down in Brooklyn? Some 10-5 years ago this nonesense was hot, classes popped up all over; then when the bubble burst, all gone... good riddance.
 

Mackintire

2[H]4U
Joined
Jun 28, 2004
Messages
2,931
Most of the discussion here is for entry level certs.

If you're talking CCNP CCIE or VMCAP, yes they look good on your resume and will assit you in getting past HR.

Any good company is going to interview/quiz you to see i you are capable of doing the job or not.
 

mkrohn

2[H]4U
Joined
Apr 30, 2012
Messages
2,345
ok, and that's one more reason I wont be going for any of it.
The only people making $ are those pushing certs, books, tests down chumps' throats.

If in fact certs were required or in demand then why have all IT, tech schools and cert classes shut down in Brooklyn? Some 10-5 years ago this nonesense was hot, classes popped up all over; then when the bubble burst, all gone... good riddance.

It's called the internet Gomar, no need for paying the insane lease prices of a place like that when streaming video became a standard. The Bachelors degree I'm going for requires a list of 6 third party certifications to even get the degree. They require 3 to accept me after my associates.

Third party verification is never a bad thing. Do you know how many times I haven't even needed to take a final exam to pass a class?

They're out there and you're clearly bitter about them. You perhaps weren't smart enough to pass them? Absolutely the certs aren't required (generally) but third party verification of knowledge like it or not HELPS if the person hiring you has never met you before. The other route is having people within the organization vouch for you or massive amounts of experience on a resume.

This first two comptia exams though are a joke.
 

mkrohn

2[H]4U
Joined
Apr 30, 2012
Messages
2,345
Most of the discussion here is for entry level certs.

If you're talking CCNP CCIE or VMCAP, yes they look good on your resume and will assit you in getting past HR.

Any good company is going to interview/quiz you to see i you are capable of doing the job or not.

Absolutely the higher end ones will help a ton. I'm not sure where exactly this became a debate about validity of certifications but those higher end ones honestly I dont know how a person could make an argument about those not being worthwhile. Tests like the A+ are without a doubt a joke but as an absolute entry level spot I could see it capable of weeding people out. I would bet money that a massive chunk of IT people with associates degree's couldn't pass the A+ and network+. I'm not saying that they're hard but some schools simply churn out crappy educations and are setup in a way that people just float through.
 

Gomar

Limp Gawd
Joined
Oct 25, 2007
Messages
294
The Bachelors degree I'm going for requires a list of 6 third party certifications to even get the degree. They require 3 to accept me after my associates.

Which school is that?
When I went to a CUNY college for comp sci no certs were required for BS. Oh, and ifcourse employment record was pretty poor for comp grads as H1B, outsourcing, cheap labor from India, Russia, China came in and beat the Americans' demands of $20/hr+benefits.

So, good luck with your comp sci degree and certs.
 

mkrohn

2[H]4U
Joined
Apr 30, 2012
Messages
2,345
Which school is that?
When I went to a CUNY college for comp sci no certs were required for BS. Oh, and ifcourse employment record was pretty poor for comp grads as H1B, outsourcing, cheap labor from India, Russia, China came in and beat the Americans' demands of $20/hr+benefits.

So, good luck with your comp sci degree and certs.

Sounds like you just suck as a computer tech. Those overseas people are only taking LOW END jobs. I have lived and breathed tech basically 24/7 since about the K6-2 days. I designed a GFD for the old athlon. I'm not just a 9-5 computer guy. I was ordering RROD xbox's by the PALLET. I developed software that combined with what I sold it for profited about $200k.

Low end guys should absolutely be afraid. Us driven guys will always find ways. I'm in the planning stages still for my next software company but I want to get EVERYTHING planned possible before I start coding anything.
 

Red Squirrel

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Nov 29, 2009
Messages
9,211
Sounds like you just suck as a computer tech. Those overseas people are only taking LOW END jobs. I have lived and breathed tech basically 24/7 since about the K6-2 days. I designed a GFD for the old athlon. I'm not just a 9-5 computer guy. I was ordering RROD xbox's by the PALLET. I developed software that combined with what I sold it for profited about $200k.

Low end guys should absolutely be afraid. Us driven guys will always find ways. I'm in the planning stages still for my next software company but I want to get EVERYTHING planned possible before I start coding anything.

Does not really matter how good you are, if a company decides to outsource they'll outsource. In fact all the higher end jobs tend to be the ones that get outsourced, usually they can't trust their own employees to do major things like code critical apps so they rather outsource to a big company so they have someone to blame if something goes wrong.
 

mkrohn

2[H]4U
Joined
Apr 30, 2012
Messages
2,345
Does not really matter how good you are, if a company decides to outsource they'll outsource. In fact all the higher end jobs tend to be the ones that get outsourced, usually they can't trust their own employees to do major things like code critical apps so they rather outsource to a big company so they have someone to blame if something goes wrong.

Those are still jobs that can be had... so instead of working at a small company you go to a big one. The term outsourced usually means overseas but in this case it really doesn't. If you're really good you should be shooting for a big company anyway so you can continue to grow instead of hitting a ceiling. The problem is so many of these low end techs that are not even capable of studying to pass some certs give everybody a bad name. Red Squirrel I know you from WAAAAY back and you have that bizarre hunger to do things because you can. You have a driving force to learn because you want to. This honestly isn't there in so many "techs". I have torn everything apart to learn how it works since a young age.

I was just offered some vouchers for free MTA exams from the school and some MCSA vouchers from another thing so those will be next. Free = stupid not to
 

Dogs

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Aug 7, 2012
Messages
1,141
The Bachelors degree I'm going for requires a list of 6 third party certifications to even get the degree. They require 3 to accept me after my associates.

It doesn't sound like a real Bachelor's degree to me, then. I've never heard of such a thing. My degrees certainly didn't require any certifications, and mine are ABET accredited.

I'm in the planning stages still for my next software company but I want to get EVERYTHING planned possible before I start coding anything.

Oh yes, keep climbing that waterfall. Make sure you re-plan EVERYTHING possible if something changes, too. ;)
 

MekoSuka

n00b
Joined
Aug 20, 2012
Messages
63
It doesn't sound like a real Bachelor's degree to me, then. I've never heard of such a thing.

There are many nationally accredited schools that accept certifications and military experiencing as credits towards undergrad and graduate programs.

Many of these schools tailor towards those who have served in the US armed services and simply apply their existing job training/work and other specific certifications e.g. CISSP towards credits in a respective program.

This will become even more commonplace as time goes on and schools become more competitive in appealing to students.
 

mkrohn

2[H]4U
Joined
Apr 30, 2012
Messages
2,345
There are many nationally accredited schools that accept certifications and military experiencing as credits towards undergrad and graduate programs.

Many of these schools tailor towards those who have served in the US armed services and simply apply their existing job training/work and other specific certifications e.g. CISSP towards credits in a respective program.

This will become even more commonplace as time goes on and schools become more competitive in appealing to students.

The top tier schools are really slow to accept changes like this. Where I'm getting ready to transfer to is ferris state. They require a certain number of third party verification before I transfer in as quality control for the school I'm taking classes from right now Southwestern Michigan. The school I am at right now I don't think I've learned anything from. I wish they'd have let me test out of more classes. People who have a decade of experience doing stuff really shouldn't have to waste so much time on things that a test could prove they know. I'm happy I've been able to test out of some classes but I wish they'd let me test out of more.
 

mkrohn

2[H]4U
Joined
Apr 30, 2012
Messages
2,345
Oh yes, keep climbing that waterfall. Make sure you re-plan EVERYTHING possible if something changes, too. ;)
Yeah I know that... there's still a LOT of planning that can be done. Maybe planning isn't the best word. Researching?
 

Dogs

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Aug 7, 2012
Messages
1,141
There are many nationally accredited schools that accept certifications and military experiencing as credits towards undergrad and graduate programs.

Sure, but they don't require these certifications or military experiences.

Many of these schools tailor towards those who have served in the US armed services and simply apply their existing job training/work and other specific certifications e.g. CISSP towards credits in a respective program.

Sure...schools offering AAS degrees in IT do this. But this has little relevance in a 4-year program, since good 4-year programs generally aren't vocational.
 

mkrohn

2[H]4U
Joined
Apr 30, 2012
Messages
2,345
Sure, but they don't require these certifications or military experiences.



Sure...schools offering AAS degrees in IT do this. But this has little relevance in a 4-year program, since good 4-year programs generally aren't vocational.

Why wouldn't any good school take a look at a certification and review what a course is teaching and say oh they're exactly the same thing so lets give them credit for it... Sadly all of the "good" schools don't think this way. once you make it down to about the third tier of 4 year schools you'll find schools that'll take care of you better. Sure its not the same as say a degree from MIT or the other big boys but really a bachelors and saving at least a year of school time is more important to me. between CLEP and the certifications I really am cutting out at least a year. I have no idea where or if I'll go beyond a bachelors but I'll keep taking some classes after my bachelors is done. I'll probably just keep going with math stuff just to get that taken care of to a level I'd need for any of the masters programs I find.
 

MekoSuka

n00b
Joined
Aug 20, 2012
Messages
63
Sure, but they don't require these certifications or military experiences.



Sure...schools offering AAS degrees in IT do this. But this has little relevance in a 4-year program, since good 4-year programs generally aren't vocational.

I wouldn't say they require you have military experience as a prerequisite. Just that they accept it towards their current programs.

Western Governors University offers both undergrad and graduate programs while applying certifications along the way and crediting you for specific certifications already obtained. They are nationally accredited and have an interesting history.

There are masters programs e.g. SANS available as well that have pre-req's nearly all life-long students could never meet.

All Applicants must meet the following criteria:

Have at least 12 months of professional work in information technology, security or audit.
Upon completion of the Master's Degree Program it is expected you will have three years of significant work experience in information technology, security or audit.
Be employed or have current access to an organizational environment that allows you to apply the concepts and hands-on technical skills learned in the Master's Program.
Have earned a baccalaureate degree from a recognized college or university, or equivalent international education, with a minimum cumulative grade point average of 2.80. There are two exceptions to the 2.80 minimum described below. (Please note that your baccalaureate does NOT have to be in the field of information security/information technology).
Exception 1: A minimum cumulative GPA of less than 2.80 may be considered for acceptance if Applicant has years of related work experience, and holds at least two current major GIAC Gold Certifications with a score of 80 (or average of 80 if there were two parts to the exam) or higher.
Exception 2: A minimum cumulative GPA of less than 2.80 may be considered for "Provisional Admittance" into the Master's Program if Applicant has years of related work experience; and the "Provisionally Admitted" student must have a score of 80 (or average of 80 if there were two parts to the exam) or higher in each of the first two major courses taken during the first year of the Program (this includes passing the two gold papers) in order to receive "Admittance" into the Masters Program.
 
Last edited:

mkrohn

2[H]4U
Joined
Apr 30, 2012
Messages
2,345
http://ferris.swmich.edu/ferris/bachelors-degrees click on the CIT then find graduation requirements... an A+ and 2 of the following...network+ and A+ are done so if I get linux+, security+ or an MCSA done then I've fulfilled that REQUIREMENT. No its not what I'd call a GOOD school but but is also a relative term. Trimming a year or so off and being within walking distance of my house AND cheap certainly make it good. Cross reference that with their CLEP list and you will get the fastest bachelors degree I've found.

Certifications don't hurt you. I'm getting some more for FREE so uhhh yeah they're worth it. If I didn't have incentives I'm sure I wouldn't bother getting any of the lower end ones. so many people on here simply hate certs but they have a place whether you like it or not.
 

MekoSuka

n00b
Joined
Aug 20, 2012
Messages
63
.

Certifications don't hurt you. I'm getting some more for FREE so uhhh yeah they're worth it. If I didn't have incentives I'm sure I wouldn't bother getting any of the lower end ones. so many people on here simply hate certs but they have a place whether you like it or not.

Speaking of degrees and certifications (not one vs. the other) I typically apply the following logic:

It's the guys with paper that run the business
It's the guys with paper that do the hiring.

If you want to be seen in the same light at the guys with paper. get your own paper.

Does this always pan out? Does this always pan out? No. It does take an extremely special individual that has no paper to get pulled out of a lineup for hiring against all those with paper. Especially in a tight economy..
 
Last edited:

mkrohn

2[H]4U
Joined
Apr 30, 2012
Messages
2,345
Speaking of degrees and certifications (not one vs. the other) I typically apply the following logic:

It's the guys with paper that run the business
It's the guys with paper that do the hiring.

If you want to be seen in the same light at the guys with paper. Get your own paper.

Does this always pan out? No. It does take an extremely special individual that has no paper to get pulled out of a lineup for hiring against all those with paper. Especially in a tight economy.

exactly why I'm doing it... if I apply for a job and there's a stack of guys with similar bachelors degrees the additional certs can only help me stand out. in relation to how much gets spent on your education whats a little more to have third party validation? True most of the real techs don't put much weight in certs but the pencil pushers certainly do.
 

Dogs

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Aug 7, 2012
Messages
1,141
Why wouldn't any good school take a look at a certification and review what a course is teaching and say oh they're exactly the same thing so lets give them credit for it... Sadly all of the "good" schools don't think this way.

That's because the good schools aren't vocational.

There are masters programs e.g. SANS available as well that have pre-req's nearly all life-long students could never meet.

I'm not exactly sure what the point of this statement is, but I do feel it is necessary for me to underline that it doesn't really make sense. Lifelong students, by definition, aren't pursuing completion of a degree program, therefore it isn't really relevant to anybody whether or not lifelong students can meet acceptance criteria for masters programs.

Cross reference that with their CLEP list and you will get the fastest bachelors degree I've found.

Not that my opinion is the only one which matters, but I personally hold little to no value in how fast a degree can be completed and instead place most of my value in the rigor, problem solving and deep intellectual study you can receive. Having a piece of paper does not make me any better at my job, regardless of whether that paper says 'degree' or 'certificate', so having that piece of paper sooner honestly does me no good. On the other hand, I am more capable of solving problems now than I would have been without going to school because I spent the better part of a decade solving difficult problems. Solving the Schrödinger Equation in 3 dimensions, identifying enantiomers of a large organic molecule, analyzing the literary significance of Paradise Lost, and articulating the economics behind fiat money are all things which have nothing to do with software, and yet having done them is valuable for learning how to develop software, because any of these exercises utilize the same skills necessary to be a good software developer. The value of college isn't in the degree itself, but in the process of obtaining it. Getting a degree faster by truncating part of the curriculum is consequently truncating part of the value of the degree.

In other words, I'd rather the degree take longer and have the opportunity to really grow intellectually so that I might get something out of it. But that's just me.
 
Last edited:
Top