Philly Becomes First City to Ban 3D Gun Printing

michael.pa2 said:
I would presume there are already laws regulating the production of firearms,regardless of the method used to make them. The problem with 3D is that the weapons would be unregistered with no way to track them,and would make guns even easier to obtain. This ban may be difficult to enforce,but if the politicians do nothing,and some maniac with a 3D produced gun walks into mall and starts blowing people away,you know damn well the public will call for their heads.
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How would that be any different than a maniac walking into a mall with a gun made via CNC at a factory? Having a serial number registered with the government in some database doesn't prevent crime from happening. In fact, it doesn't even "track" the gun.

If I buy a "normal" gun and my state happens to require registering the serial number, the state assumes I have it. If my home gets broken into and the safe cracked open and the gun gets stolen, I report it stolen and...? It being registered to me doesn't allow them to find the thief and even if they did find the thief it doesn't allow them to find who it was re-sold to.

When was the last time you heard of vehicle registration(you know, the VIN and license plate) stopping someone from stealing a car? Or using a car and then doing something with it(mowing down crowds on a boardwalk, it's happened)? All it does is let the cops know where the car(or gun) came from AFTER the fact. It doesn't stop crime, it doesn't prevent crime.

Also, the idea of banning people from printing 3d guns in their garage is idiotic. The criminals who would use the guns for criminal purposes won't give a crap that printing the things has been banned. All it does is prevent law abiding citizens from pursuing a hobby(not like you'd use any of these things yet for serious target shooting or defensive purposes, so it really is a hobbycraft thing still). The citizens who weren't going to print a gun to go murdering people anyway.
 
Tudz said:
City-level bans are pretty pointless. Hell, even state-level bans are pretty pointless when it's only a short drive from one state to the next.
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Federal level bans would be equally pointless considering our seeming inability to control our borders. Offering $50 to every illegal crossing a the border to carry a firearm would more than satisfy any blackmarket. In order to interdict the gun trade we'd actually have to enforce our border wrt immigration. Like that's going to happen.
 
michael.pa2 said:
I would presume there are already laws regulating the production of firearms,regardless of the method used to make them. The problem with 3D is that the weapons would be unregistered with no way to track them,and would make guns even easier to obtain. This ban may be difficult to enforce,but if the politicians do nothing,and some maniac with a 3D produced gun walks into mall and starts blowing people away,you know damn well the public will call for their heads.
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There *are* laws on the books regulating firearms. Truth be told, the whole "3d printed guns" issue is overblown. It would be easier to buy an 80% lower receiver and finish milling it yourself, and you'd get a better result.

Aluisious said:
You presumed incorrectly, so why even bother?
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Um, wrong on so many levels.
WBurchnall said:
Well, yes. In those two places. In the majority of the world with gun control, it's been very effective. The problem is, gun control after 50+ years of selling guns to almost anyone who wanted one that can be inherited downwards a family line (if properly maintained), stolen or sold in private results in many guns on the legal and illegal markets that didn't original from a gun shop post when new gun control laws have taken effect. Gun control, would under the best of circumstances, take years to have an effect. If you look at places were gun control has been used for 50+ years, it's amazing how much better they are doing at us at preventing gun deaths.
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Ok, let's assume that lower gun ownership correlates to lower gun deaths. What about the overall murder rate? No correlation. Overall violent crime rate? It's hard to make an apples-to-apples comparison, due to differing definitions, but in general (at least when comparing US to UK), no correlation.
 
michael.pa2 said:
I would presume there are already laws regulating the production of firearms,regardless of the method used to make them. The problem with 3D is that the weapons would be unregistered with no way to track them,and would make guns even easier to obtain. This ban may be difficult to enforce,but if the politicians do nothing,and some maniac with a 3D produced gun walks into mall and starts blowing people away,you know damn well the public will call for their heads.
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There's no firearms registry in Pa. In addition, plenty of legally owned firearms aren't possible to be tracked accurately.

How about if a nutball does something violent we blame the nutball, for once.
 
Mohonri said:
There *are* laws on the books regulating firearms. Truth be told, the whole "3d printed guns" issue is overblown. It would be easier to buy an 80% lower receiver and finish milling it yourself, and you'd get a better result.


Um, wrong on so many levels.
Ok, let's assume that lower gun ownership correlates to lower gun deaths. What about the overall murder rate? No correlation. Overall violent crime rate? It's hard to make an apples-to-apples comparison, due to differing definitions, but in general (at least when comparing US to UK), no correlation.
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Compare apples to apples, US 1988 vs 2008. Firearms ownership at all-time high (2008), violent crime all time low (2008). The trend continues to this day.
 
Merc1138 said:
How would that be any different than a maniac walking into a mall with a gun made via CNC at a factory? Having a serial number registered with the government in some database doesn't prevent crime from happening. In fact, it doesn't even "track" the gun.

If I buy a "normal" gun and my state happens to require registering the serial number, the state assumes I have it. If my home gets broken into and the safe cracked open and the gun gets stolen, I report it stolen and...? It being registered to me doesn't allow them to find the thief and even if they did find the thief it doesn't allow them to find who it was re-sold to.

When was the last time you heard of vehicle registration(you know, the VIN and license plate) stopping someone from stealing a car? Or using a car and then doing something with it(mowing down crowds on a boardwalk, it's happened)? All it does is let the cops know where the car(or gun) came from AFTER the fact. It doesn't stop crime, it doesn't prevent crime.

Also, the idea of banning people from printing 3d guns in their garage is idiotic. The criminals who would use the guns for criminal purposes won't give a crap that printing the things has been banned. All it does is prevent law abiding citizens from pursuing a hobby(not like you'd use any of these things yet for serious target shooting or defensive purposes, so it really is a hobbycraft thing still). The citizens who weren't going to print a gun to go murdering people anyway.
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You're right, of course, but I'm sure you'll get some gobblyderk responses soon from the rabble. Oh, and the stereotypical accusations of not thinking of the children, being racist, and ignoring so called "statistics" that have no context.
 
My vote for stupidest quote for the year: "It’s just based upon internet stuff out there."
 
Lol @ government. Keep on FAILing. That and killing/harming you is about the only thing government is good for.
 
Commander FAT said:
Not necessarily. Selling home made guns privately is not a crime in itself. The feds only really care if you are making a business out of it.
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Depending on the state it might be. In PA it is illegal to sell a homemade gun, but it is not illegal to make your own gun. Homemade guns cannot be transferred to other individuals and must be destroyed upon the owner's death.
 
kirbyrj said:
Depending on the state it might be. In PA it is illegal to sell a homemade gun, but it is not illegal to make your own gun. Homemade guns cannot be transferred to other individuals and must be destroyed upon the owner's death.
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Heh, lame. I thought IL had shitty laws, oh wait it does.
 
This made me laugh. Philly is right next to Camden. A city more involved with weapons and crime than Philly itself. :p

Level Camden and most of Philly problems go away besides drugs. In that case level North Philly :D
 
Of course details of this new law were broadcast on the Underground Criminal Broadcasting System (UCBS) to ensure all Criminals were fully aware of the law, so that there would be no excuse for violations.
 
I see two problems with this:

1) If they can ban you from printing guns, its only a small step to ban you from printing words, which is only a very small step from banning you from saying words.

2) I'm sure the criminal element is bummed that there is a law preventing them from printing their weapons, because they care so much about what the law says to start with... :rolleyes:

worm
 
Going to have zero impact on the issue of people getting themselves killed with some plastic handgun, that they printed out from an internet site.
 
You can bet other liberal cities like NYC, LA, San Fran, Boston, Chicago, Detroit, etc. will follow suit. Not that it'll stop the bad guys from making their own guns. :rolleyes:
 
I'm sure the criminals are super bummed that they can't spend months and thousands of dollars trying to print a single shot .22 pistol, instead of sending their girlfriend one city over to buy a Glock for $400.
 
A ban on 3D printing is no big deal as you can't make a proper firearm, but it looks like they are going to try and ban CNC.

Legally you are allowed to make your own firearm provided you do not sell it. The issue is CNC, lathes, and other machine tools can't be banned because you use those to make just about everything. If an illegitimate business opens up it will essentially be unenforceable. Just like those Australians who were making submachine guns that were caught some months back.
 
WBurchnall said:
Well, yes. In those two places. In the majority of the world with gun control, it's been very effective. The problem is, gun control after 50+ years of selling guns to almost anyone who wanted one that can be inherited downwards a family line (if properly maintained), stolen or sold in private results in many guns on the legal and illegal markets that didn't original from a gun shop post when new gun control laws have taken effect. Gun control, would under the best of circumstances, take years to have an effect. If you look at places were gun control has been used for 50+ years, it's amazing how much better they are doing at us at preventing gun deaths.
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Name one where it has been effective, and don't say Britain/UK, as all it has done is moved gun crime to knife crime. We all saw the hilarity of Britain's "stabless knives".
 
shade91 said:
Name one where it has been effective, and don't say Britain/UK, as all it has done is moved gun crime to knife crime. We all saw the hilarity of Britain's "stabless knives".
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No. You're right. "Gun crime" may be lower, per capita, but violent crime isn't. Violent crime is actually higher in the UK and even higher in Australia.

Oddly enough, handgun violence in the UK has only increased every year since the handgun ban in 1998, whereas handgun violence in the US decreases every year per capita as gun ownership increases.
 
Your average crook is going to steal a gun or buy it on the black market. Your average 3D-printing fellow is not going to make a firearm with their 3D printer. The whole reason this is an issue is that some politicians are scared of the near nonexistent chance of someone coming after them with a gun that can make it through a metal detector. Perhaps if they did their jobs and actually represented the people they wouldn't have to be afraid of their subjects... er, I mean citizens. :rolleyes:

Either way this is absolutely pointless. The ammo is still going to set off the metal detector. If you're going to talk plastic bullets, what's the point? The whole advantage of using a firearm is to cause damage from a distance, and without effective, accurate ammunition that advantage disappears. There are quicker and quieter means of assassination that metal detectors are just as useless against but are quite effective. If someone really wants to take someone out they don't need to use a gun. This kind of law protects nobody and solves a problem that does not exist. It's useless, knee-jerk legislation. The tax dollars wasted on this would be put to better use paving a road or fixing a police cruiser.
 
shade91 said:
Because banning guns has been soooooo effective (hi Washington DC, Chicago).
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let's gate the city and we'll talk about how effective city-wide gun bans are. Until then, the talk of large cities' gun bans are getting old. Oklahoma City's got one of the worse homicide rate per capita and they do not have restrictive gun laws. How about that?

Chicago's problem is Indiana. Criminals smuggle them in from outside. If guns are banned throughout the entire country, THEN you can tell us how effective gun bans are.

I don't want gun bans any more than the next guy but I get tired of listening to people singling out Chicago and other major city knowing that borders are open to all.
 
Flogger23m said:
A ban on 3D printing is no big deal as you can't make a proper firearm, but it looks like they are going to try and ban CNC.

Legally you are allowed to make your own firearm provided you do not sell it. The issue is CNC, lathes, and other machine tools can't be banned because you use those to make just about everything. If an illegitimate business opens up it will essentially be unenforceable. Just like those Australians who were making submachine guns that were caught some months back.
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That's not what the bill introduced linked above says. It's just a receiver made from "undetectable" parts. The legislation proposed is really just a reauthorization of old legislation from 1988 that has been reauthorized in 1993 and 2003 (kind of like the assault weapon ban was not reauthorized in 2004 and thus was no longer a law). As far as I can tell, it is not a ban on CNC because, as you noted, it is perfectly legal to make your own weapon as long as you don't sell it. This whole thing has little to do with "making your own guns" as it is about the "undetectable" nature of the gun.
 
Azhar said:
I don't want gun bans any more than the next guy but I get tired of listening to people singling out Chicago and other major city knowing that borders are open to all.
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Sorry, but that's a demonstration of just how useless gun bans are. And even if we do it on a national level, we'll have to put walls up to Mexico and Canada and the rest of the world. Yes, they have guns. Hell, we gave Mexican drug cartels thousands.
 
If one has both the CAD and manufacturing skills to be able to produce a working firearm, using a 3D printer, they are likely not a criminal. Far too many people believe that 3D printers are idiot-proof. The reality is that most 3D models, out there, require extensive work to get them to the point where they can be printed.
 
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