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Philips BDM4065UC - 40" 4K 60Hz monitor thread
- Thread starter AgentQ
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[WARNING: wall of text...my apologies] TL;DR Monitor is most likely SST; Japanese forum disappointed in slight distortion of aspect ratio (2% stretch width-wise) inherent to the display used in the monitor.
If Philips is investigating the source of the "misinformation" on this forum, I can only imagine that the monitor uses SST instead of MST. This is consistent with what I've been seeing on the Korean and Chinese reviews, which state that the Windows Display Setup only registers one display, rather than two, when the monitor is plugged in. I'm actually a bit bummed to be honest. I realize this is completely selfish but I was kind of hoping for MST because the CPU on my (admittedly limited) device can only run 60Hz 4K using MST. I imagine this is the case for a lot of people who don't have the latest setup.
Anyway, I've been a lurker but I created an account just now to point you to something I've been following on the Japanese forums (http://toro.2ch.sc/test/read.cgi/hard/1415932836/). One of the posters linked to a blog post (http://capricciosoassai-annex.blogspot.jp/2014/11/13.html?m=1) from a guy who seems very familiar with the manufacturers of different displays, and in it the guy states that he is very confident (the direct translation of his figure of speech means "9 times out of 10") that the monitor uses a 39.5" S-MVA display from the Taiwanese Innolux Corporation - the same display used in Sharp's 40 inch 4K TV LC-40U20. But here's the catch that some people on the Japanese forums were not happy with - the display actually has a slightly distorted aspect ratio that is not exactly 16:9 but closer to 20:11 (it is 4 mm wider and 7 mm shorter than one would expect from an exact 16:9 39.5 inch display). This causes the image displayed to be slightly stretched width-wise, such that a 1:1 perfect square would be displayed as 1:1.0177. In other words, the image would appear to be stretched 1.77% wider than it should be. To help visualize this distortion, one of the posters on the forum made a comparison pic and animated gif using a cartoon character, but they seem to have been deleted so I made my own images:
http://i.imgur.com/4J19WtM.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/9wsgrTb.gif
In the side-by-side comparison pic, the left is the normal pic and the right is the 1.77% stretched pic as it would appear on the display. The difference is pretty subtle, and in all honesty I probably wouldn't notice it unless the display were placed right next to a normal display and the distortion were pointed out to me explicitly.
In the animated gif, though, the difference is much more obvious, probably because our visual systems are primed to pick up on motion and changes in contours. But this isn't actually a realistic representation of what you would experience with the display, since the display isn't going to somehow flicker between the normal and distorted aspect ratio. That being said, if you're a photographer or artist who requires high-fidelity representations of your images, you should be aware of this distortion.
It seems to bother some of the Japanese posters enough that they've completely lost interest in the monitor (they joke that it would make you look fatter), but others (including me) aren't too bothered by it. Your personal preference may vary. It's a shame...if it were MST, I would probably buy it.
If Philips is investigating the source of the "misinformation" on this forum, I can only imagine that the monitor uses SST instead of MST. This is consistent with what I've been seeing on the Korean and Chinese reviews, which state that the Windows Display Setup only registers one display, rather than two, when the monitor is plugged in. I'm actually a bit bummed to be honest. I realize this is completely selfish but I was kind of hoping for MST because the CPU on my (admittedly limited) device can only run 60Hz 4K using MST. I imagine this is the case for a lot of people who don't have the latest setup.
Anyway, I've been a lurker but I created an account just now to point you to something I've been following on the Japanese forums (http://toro.2ch.sc/test/read.cgi/hard/1415932836/). One of the posters linked to a blog post (http://capricciosoassai-annex.blogspot.jp/2014/11/13.html?m=1) from a guy who seems very familiar with the manufacturers of different displays, and in it the guy states that he is very confident (the direct translation of his figure of speech means "9 times out of 10") that the monitor uses a 39.5" S-MVA display from the Taiwanese Innolux Corporation - the same display used in Sharp's 40 inch 4K TV LC-40U20. But here's the catch that some people on the Japanese forums were not happy with - the display actually has a slightly distorted aspect ratio that is not exactly 16:9 but closer to 20:11 (it is 4 mm wider and 7 mm shorter than one would expect from an exact 16:9 39.5 inch display). This causes the image displayed to be slightly stretched width-wise, such that a 1:1 perfect square would be displayed as 1:1.0177. In other words, the image would appear to be stretched 1.77% wider than it should be. To help visualize this distortion, one of the posters on the forum made a comparison pic and animated gif using a cartoon character, but they seem to have been deleted so I made my own images:
http://i.imgur.com/4J19WtM.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/9wsgrTb.gif
In the side-by-side comparison pic, the left is the normal pic and the right is the 1.77% stretched pic as it would appear on the display. The difference is pretty subtle, and in all honesty I probably wouldn't notice it unless the display were placed right next to a normal display and the distortion were pointed out to me explicitly.
In the animated gif, though, the difference is much more obvious, probably because our visual systems are primed to pick up on motion and changes in contours. But this isn't actually a realistic representation of what you would experience with the display, since the display isn't going to somehow flicker between the normal and distorted aspect ratio. That being said, if you're a photographer or artist who requires high-fidelity representations of your images, you should be aware of this distortion.
It seems to bother some of the Japanese posters enough that they've completely lost interest in the monitor (they joke that it would make you look fatter), but others (including me) aren't too bothered by it. Your personal preference may vary. It's a shame...if it were MST, I would probably buy it.
Unfortunately, no details on that on this particular Japanese forum. Contrary to what somebody said earlier, the display has only been made available in China and Korea thus far, not Japan (it's scheduled to be released in early December there). So they haven't been able to formally test those things.
As for the Korean and Chinese forums, I haven't been able to find much else besides the brief reviews that have already been posted here earlier by user =)(=. I'm surprised the monitor hasn't been formally reviewed by one of their major tech review sites...maybe their reviews will be posted soon.
As for the Korean and Chinese forums, I haven't been able to find much else besides the brief reviews that have already been posted here earlier by user =)(=. I'm surprised the monitor hasn't been formally reviewed by one of their major tech review sites...maybe their reviews will be posted soon.
I don't get this, I have a MST display too but it shows as one display in Windows, where is it supposed to show as two displays?
When it comes to movies, you would not get tiny black bars on top/bottom because it is a bit wider? I did not see much difference on the comparison pic but on the gif I did. so it will not bother me so much.
This stretching is absolute shock for me. Not that it is visible /I bet I would not notice if that was not revealed/ but how such thing may happen? Bunch of questions:
Is this due to that pixels are not PERFECTLY square??? OK, I read more and pixels are not square in order to get extreme utilization of the glass sheets from which the panela are cut.
Or this is a problem with electronics??? No.
Is this the only display with such problems or this happens more often??, is common??? There is at least 40" 4K TV by Sharp which uses the same panel. It happens also with other panels too but it is well visible in the 40" monitor due to its size.
Is this due to that pixels are not PERFECTLY square??? OK, I read more and pixels are not square in order to get extreme utilization of the glass sheets from which the panela are cut.
Or this is a problem with electronics??? No.
Is this the only display with such problems or this happens more often??, is common??? There is at least 40" 4K TV by Sharp which uses the same panel. It happens also with other panels too but it is well visible in the 40" monitor due to its size.
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[H]appymeal
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[H]appymeal
Weaksauce
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From what he is saying, all the pixels are there. So no bars.
Thanks for the info from Japanese forum
it sound odd to to hear that the screen is aspect ratio that is not exactly 16:9 but closer to 20:11 (it is 4 mm wider and 7 mm shorter ) and the contents showing on monitor will be stretch 1.77% due to the wider side than usual 16:9
so the screen is not 3840 x 2160 ? as 3840 x 2160 is 16:9 . It does not sound normal to me , maybe something missing in translation from Japanese forum ?
it sound odd to to hear that the screen is aspect ratio that is not exactly 16:9 but closer to 20:11 (it is 4 mm wider and 7 mm shorter ) and the contents showing on monitor will be stretch 1.77% due to the wider side than usual 16:9
so the screen is not 3840 x 2160 ? as 3840 x 2160 is 16:9 . It does not sound normal to me , maybe something missing in translation from Japanese forum ?
Looking at the two side by side, I would've sworn they were the same picture.. So I guess while intellectually annoying, I doubt I will experience any issues from real world use. Not a photographer nor graphic artist..
The screen is perfectly 3840 x 2160 but pixels are not precisely square, got it? Reason for this is that by this small change they can tightly pack panels on a glass sheet resulting in 98% glass utilization. This of course contributes to lower price of these monitors. On first look this is annoying invention but on the other hand there must be small visual distortions in those much admired curved monitors too.
Based on this Windows Blog Post (Scroll down to "4K Gaming at 60Hz using MST": http://blogs.windows.com/bloggingwi...ng-boundary-at-1-5-billion-pixels-per-second/), my understanding was that when you initially plug in an MST monitor with DisplayPort 1.2, it shows up as two separate 60hz displays on Windows Display Setup. The displays can then be merged into one by enabling Collage Mode for Intel or using an Eyefinity Setup for AMD. I may be wrong though as different displays might handle things differently.
With regard to the AR distortion, as others have astutely pointed out, the issue is with the dimensions of the pixels - they are not perfectly square. Thus even though the display still consists of 3840x2160 pixels, you end up with a ratio that is not exactly 16:9. You would not get bars because the movie is still being mapped to the correct ratio of pixels - the image would just appear stretched width-wise.
The blog post states that the 39.5" Sharp 4K TV is the only other device that uses the same Innolux display, but I suspect that minor AR distortions of this magnitude are not exceedingly rare on TVs (anyone who grew up with CRT TVs has probably experienced much greater AR distortions in the past). Since TVs are used for mostly passive entertainment purposes, I think there is a greater tolerance for minor distortions. For computer monitors, though, I imagine there is much less tolerance for these distortions, especially for professional displays used for a wide variety of productivity purposes (since image fidelity is important). I am no expert on this subject, however, so this is mere speculation.
On the issue of input lag, I haven't found anything that hasn't already been posted by =)(=. The blogger here http://bmsm.net/bbs/134314 said that the input lag is only about 0.5-1 frame behind his 27" Bypass QHD monitor (does not state brand or make) and equivalent to the input lag of his 23.5" Sony PS3 3D display (based on his description and the picture I think he is referring to this: http://www.theverge.com/products/playstation-3d-display/3980). According to this Eurogamer review (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/df-hardware-playstation-3d-display-review) of the Sony PS3 3D display, it has "exactly two frames of lag when both 720p and 1080p content was being feed to the screen, translating into a "real world" 33ms response time" which they viewed as "Not fantastic, but still a cut above most HDTVs."
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Thank you. i am not really a tech guy but i think i got it now. i think curved monitor visual might look distortion if only person don't sit in middle of the screen.
Adam from pcmonitors.info says at the bottom of his page (https://pcmonitors.info/philips/philips-bdm4065uc-40-inch-uhd-4k-monitor/) that he's getting one for review. We'll see soon enough if it's really SST.
Let's get him to test the screen stretching scandal. If indeed the "not exactly 16:9 but closer to 20:11" allegations are true, I'm gonna PASS on this monitor. I know it's common for some HDTVs to not exactly display 1:1 pixel input, and for the most part it's fine cause people can't tell from many feet away. But if Philips is advertising this unit as a desktop monitor as oppose to a regular ole HDTV, it sure better behave as one.
A 1.77% wider image display out of the 3840 horizontal pixels means that there's a discrepancy of 67.9 pixels. That means a full screen picture/video is always 68 pixels off.
Don't know bout u, but it would sure bother me
Hmm, i'd double check that pixel thing to not run into some thought out only issue. Even if pixels themselves are not square, it doesn't mean that display/panel 100% should be disproportioned. Pixel form shouldn't automatically impact vertical/horizontal gaps between them or that those gaps must be of same for vertical & horizontal.
Point is when you would notice it if not told b4? I guess this could be discovered by chance only when drawing circles on the screen. It seems manufacturers should be obligated to tell pixel size, in the current situation there is unfair competition between those making very cheap monitors an pretending they are same as more expensive ones having square pixels.
LurkerLito
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Wow that is interesting. While I doubt in normal use anyone would really notice, the issue with the stretching on a desktop monitor is if you do any kind of graphic work. 3D modeling, image processing, video editing. That small discrepancy will make your work suffer. Imagine you finish your project and everything you made is 1.77% thinner on any monitor, or printed because you were adjusting for your monitor AR without realizing it.
WorldExclusive
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Concerns over rumors. Time and brain power wasted.
Looks like I won't be getting the monitor this week. The store owner called me today and told me they were supposed to get 2 monitors today but the date has been changed to 28/11 and he asked if I want to cancel my order or wait some more. I decided to wait. Maybe I will be able to test this for you next week. I will try to get hold of a CRT monitor so I can test the input lag properly.
I will also test if it is SST or MST, I'm not sure how to properly do this in Windows but I will be using OS X Yosemite installed on my PC.
If you want to use a MST monitor on hackintosh @ 60Hz you need Yosemite, Nvidia Web Driver and you also need to edit a kext because Apple has blocked some Mac Board-ID's from accessing MST 60Hz.
So I will use a iMac14,2 SMBIOS and try to use the monitor in DP 1.2 mode without editing the kext, if it works at 60Hz, it means it is SST, if it doesn't then its MST.
It is explained here how to.
I will also test if it is SST or MST, I'm not sure how to properly do this in Windows but I will be using OS X Yosemite installed on my PC.
If you want to use a MST monitor on hackintosh @ 60Hz you need Yosemite, Nvidia Web Driver and you also need to edit a kext because Apple has blocked some Mac Board-ID's from accessing MST 60Hz.
So I will use a iMac14,2 SMBIOS and try to use the monitor in DP 1.2 mode without editing the kext, if it works at 60Hz, it means it is SST, if it doesn't then its MST.
It is explained here how to.
Cool logic tells this monitor should be compared with 40" 4K TVs which have 4:4:4 mode (e.g. Panasonic). TVs have HDMI 2.0 which eliminates input problems for those who have GTX970/980 cards. Possible disadvantage comparing to monitor is input lag and maybe viewing angle. But if the
input lag and viewing angle would be in tolerable limits TV could be a better choice overall. At the CES in the beginning of January more will be known about next year TV models.
input lag and viewing angle would be in tolerable limits TV could be a better choice overall. At the CES in the beginning of January more will be known about next year TV models.
I got mail from the store owner now, he just wanted to give me update on the monitor, it will come 10th December, still a preliminary date and might change again he said, so I decided to cancel the order. I still have my order at the first store which will get it 3rd or 4th week of December.
Not sure what the problem is, why it gets delayed all the time.
Not sure what the problem is, why it gets delayed all the time.
Semi-OT:
Recent change to my office layout has opened up the possibility of setting up a 40-55 inch TV in addition to my current triple 30" Dell u3011 monitors (3 computers in total).
In addition to TV duties (movies, etc) I would want this new display to be able to play PC games (not much into consoles). I'd like to go 4k for the resolution and I'll be sitting anywhere from 34-48" away from the screen.
From the limited research I've done, is the Philips 40" the only 40+ inch 4k that is geared towards being a monitor? I think DisplayPort would be essential for PC connectivity.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Recent change to my office layout has opened up the possibility of setting up a 40-55 inch TV in addition to my current triple 30" Dell u3011 monitors (3 computers in total).
In addition to TV duties (movies, etc) I would want this new display to be able to play PC games (not much into consoles). I'd like to go 4k for the resolution and I'll be sitting anywhere from 34-48" away from the screen.
From the limited research I've done, is the Philips 40" the only 40+ inch 4k that is geared towards being a monitor? I think DisplayPort would be essential for PC connectivity.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
The only 4K TVs which have DisplayPort are from Panasonic. DisplayPort is not essential, every 4K TV has HDMI 2.0 connectivity and this can be utilized with the GTX970/980 cards, currently the only ones which have the HDMI 2.0 output. For playing games at 4K those cards are rather needed, even dual SLI is not excessive.
Using 55" TV as monitor and/or for gaming has other potential issues which should be carefully thought out. Some TVs have problems with the 4:4:4 format though more recent ones are better in this respect. Input lag is typically higher than in computer monitors, sometimes really problematic (e.g. in those Panasonics). Then there are problems with the big display itself. When viewing from close distance there can visible dropoff in contrast towards edges of the display. Besides, there is ergonomy issue here : when big 55" display is placed on a normal desk, its upper edge is too high resulting in risking chronic neck pain.
wirk,
Thanks for the reply! I know that I'll need to upgrade my video cards (currently have dual AMD 7970 cards). I've started looking at the 970/980s.
I appreciate the caution on the screen size. I think the 40-46" range would be emersive enough. I'll be setting up my new desks this weekend, so I'll get s better idea on the space.
Now if only the Philips 40" would be for sale in the states...!
-dc
Thanks for the reply! I know that I'll need to upgrade my video cards (currently have dual AMD 7970 cards). I've started looking at the 970/980s.
I appreciate the caution on the screen size. I think the 40-46" range would be emersive enough. I'll be setting up my new desks this weekend, so I'll get s better idea on the space.
Now if only the Philips 40" would be for sale in the states...!
-dc
Philips will be most likely available globally but we'll see from reviews how good it is. As said TVs have also to be selected carefully to avoid their specific problems. If you go with the 40" set note that screen height is such that display has to be lowered to the desk level to keep upper edge not go high with respect to eye level. Probably a curved displayt would the best 40" monitor. I decided to wait till January to see what will be on offer next year.
I agree that waiting is probably the best idea - see what CES shows. I might pick up a TV in the interim and see how I will end up using it (this is a new office setup, so what I end up liking and wanting may be a lot different than what I want/think right now.
WorldExclusive
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I do too, but the monitor will stay around longer.
TwistedMetalGear
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Look at that splotchiness on the photoshop window. I hope that's the camera and not uniformity issues...
^
This looks artefact. More telling is the ergonomy, the display is too high for comfortable eye level. Lowering it to the desk level would be very advisable.
As she is not an object like monitor she would definitely tell she does not want you
.
This looks artefact. More telling is the ergonomy, the display is too high for comfortable eye level. Lowering it to the desk level would be very advisable.
As she is not an object like monitor she would definitely tell she does not want you
.Someone just posted videos of the monitor's viewing angles, color reproduction range and response speed...not really sure what to make of them without accompanying explanations:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0dk4ZmPt5o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tL_plxDU9YE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOlECsoB7X4
Also I found a Korean blog that has a few additional images and videos...perhaps someone with a better command of Korean can fill us in what the person is saying:
http://blog.naver.com/vmoxmv/220170228413
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0dk4ZmPt5o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tL_plxDU9YE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOlECsoB7X4
Also I found a Korean blog that has a few additional images and videos...perhaps someone with a better command of Korean can fill us in what the person is saying:
http://blog.naver.com/vmoxmv/220170228413
GNUse_the_force
Gawd
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ok that corporate tatoo is creepy as is the weird sado / bondage clothing.. hmm
Satanic 4k coming to a Dungeon near you soon !
Satanic 4k coming to a Dungeon near you soon !
GNUse_the_force
Gawd
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near abouts that height or maybe 37" for extra ppi and 21:9 5k would be my dream monitor ( VA (or working oled) 120hz). Even though that is massive you still cant see the right side of the cab or any extra road its just a big UHD standard aspect screen.
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Things advance fast: Here is new LG 4K 55" curved LCD TV. I believe for close viewing distance gaming and use as oversized monitor curved is better than flat though I have not tested this. 40 incher like this would be top condidate for the desktop.
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