Peter Moore Concedes Controllers Are Too Complex. Is a new 360 Controller Coming?

theNoid

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http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3255&Ite mid=2


In a roundtable interview posted by Gamertag Radio, Xbox head Peter Moore said Microsoft is "doing a lot of stuff" to overcome the hurdle of controller over-complexity.

Moore commented on the time that he spent with the Wii controller at E3, saying that his experience with Sonic on the console was "intuitive," although he also commented that Super Monkey Ball fatigued his faux-tattooed arms. He also said that the Wii's controller may wear thin after a half hour.

Despite his reservations about the Wii's controller, he suggested that it's a step in the right direction for the industry.

"...Shoulder buttons, triggers, analog sticks, d-pads, I mean, there's a lot going on there when you compare it to the old Atari 2600 button-and-stick, which everybody could pick up and have some fun with."

He continued, "Clearly, I think that the Wii is trying to get back to those days, although when I picked it up, I was surprised how much stuff there is on there, and it took me a while even then to get going on those things. I'm a huge fan of any kind of innovation you can try and do that will make a broader reach for games, because as an industry we've got to do that. We've got to bring more people in that are currently maybe intimidated when they look at that controller.

"I look even in my house... there's no way that my 14-year-old daughter can really grasp . She loves to play racing games, but that's about it. And she's frustrated because of the button configurations and the use of triggers--she just doesn't quite get it.

"We're doing a lot of stuff there. Nothing that we're ready to talk about, and we're not going to force anything that is not going to be intuitive and innovative."

Hmm interesting. He doesn't say anything about a new controller, or motion sensativity but does admit that controllers can be complex for some... and seems open to ideas. I still do not think a new controller is coming, but I think he is hinting at the 360 Vision camera that comes out this fall.

You can play games w/o a controller...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6sO2LHO63s&search=360 camera
(very old old old video from early 2005 I think)

Anyways, who knows maybe a new controller on the way ? Personally I think the 360 controller is by far the best one I"ve ever held... and I played with the Wii at E306.

Thoughts ?
 

Filter

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i think the 360 contorller is perfect. the right amount of buttons and well layed out. personally i think motoin sensing controllers like the wii is a gimmick personally. and really dont see having much more then a few hours after the newness wears off.
 

theNoid

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I agree in a way. See even first party megaton Wii titles like Super Smash Brothers CANNOT use the Wiimote. Players are going to be forced to use the Gamecube controller to play SSB. Not to derail my own thread, but if all the hype about the Wii is the Wiimote.. and if megaton franchises don't even use the damn thing ... where does it leave that console ?

But... I think the Wii will sell great either way.

Back on topic though, I think motion sensativity is a 'good start' but very gimmicky at this stage in the game. Time will tell I guess.
 

Karafias

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A simpler contoller might be better for new gamers, but the current controller style is needed for modern games. As it is, I wouldn't mind about 50 more buttons (or a keyboard :p) while I play console games. I think the 360 controller is the best of the lot so far. Nice design. I REALLY wish Sony had re-designed their controller for the PS3... I had so wished to never see those accursed things again :x

I'm taking a wait and see stance with the Wii-controller. Sadly, I didn't get to E3 this year, so how it feels is a complete mystery to me. I'll wait for a friend to buy one, play it for a few hours, and see how I like it. It's really too different to buy w/o knowing how it plays. I think it'll be either really awesome or really sucky. Time will tell.
 

theNoid

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There will be a few good games that use the Wiimote there is no denying that. The question is ... minus the Wiimote the Wii is just a 2x Gamecube with the Virtual Console. If megaton titles like SSB don't even use this said 'godsend' to the industry.... it doesn't make me think the large portion of games will.

I expect that the following generation of consoles will truely transition the gimmicks to standards.. but again, time will tell.
 

tosp

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theNoid said:
There will be a few good games that use the Wiimote there is no denying that. The question is ... minus the Wiimote the Wii is just a 2x Gamecube with the Virtual Console. If megaton titles like SSB don't even use this said 'godsend' to the industry.... it doesn't make me think the large portion of games will.

I expect that the following generation of consoles will truely transition the gimmicks to standards.. but again, time will tell.

Without the pretty HD graphics, what is the XBox 360? And don't spout me off some specs, they're irrelevant in any discussion. Peter Moore hit the nail on the head. The industry is headed on a path that will alienate even more gamers. If Nintendo fails with the Wii, Moore nor Kutaragi are going to be digging it out. A breath of fresh air is a good thing, certainly one that will last more than 30 minutes.
 

Isaacav2

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SSB in 720x480p mode is good enough for me :) Besides it was always the gameplay of the SSB series that drew people in.
 

Bop

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I just read this article here: http://www.gamespot.com/news/6152917.html

It says Immersion is partially owned by MS and they recently developed some new rumbling technology that can be used in motion sensing devices. Like when you hit a ball with a racket you get that "springy" feeling.

Looks like they might be up to something...
 

[T5K]thrasher

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theNoid said:
if megaton franchises don't even use the damn thing ... where does it leave that console ?

Gasp, maybe they will have to come up with some original concepts instead of just rehasing the same shit like every one else :eek:
 

PoweredBySoy

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I didn't read the full article, but I don't understand how Microsoft could release a 'simplified' controller for the 360, when all current and near-future games are developed around the current controller.

My guess is this is all just research for the next Xbox.
 

erwos

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PoweredBySoy said:
I didn't read the full article, but I don't understand how Microsoft could release a 'simplified' controller for the 360, when all current and near-future games are developed around the current controller.
Don't think "instead of" - think "in addition to".

What comes to mind, for instance, would be a glove interface, like in Minority Report, where you manipulate objects in a far more natural fashion than a gamepad, keyboard, or even a mouse. The technology to do this is available right now, in fact.

Maybe you'd have a game where you could act as a wizard, casting spells using verbal (through the mic) and hand gestures (right hand does spell casting, left hand controls player movement?). "Wizard Duel" - that could be pretty awesome. Or, maybe a game that would let you play _real_ instruments, and measure how well you're doing through finger movements and sound. There's a lot of stuff you could do with that interface, things which even the Wiimote might not be able to do. Then again, there's a lot you couldn't - which is why console gamers need to get out of this trap of thinking there's "one controller to rule them all" on a particular console.

-Erwos
 

magoo

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Any game/controller combination has a learning curve.
The player has to master the control.period. no matter how "simplified" it becomes.
Gloves,sticks,wii's,magic wands,baseball bats, it doesnt matter. You just have to spend time with the game and read the instructions.

The problems with any controller/game that I've seen is essentially the kids dont take time to read how the game is played or go through the tutorial and they become frustrated because "the game doesnt work". I think that's pretty much universal. :eek:

I do agree that some games have such insane button combinations it's hard to enjoy. In that regard simple is better. Of all the consoles I've played (not many) the 360 seems to be the best laid out and most simplified.
 

Spaceman_Spiff

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magoo said:
Any game/controller combination has a learning curve.
The player has to master the control.period. no matter how "simplified" it becomes.
Gloves,sticks,wii's,magic wands,baseball bats, it doesnt matter. You just have to spend time with the game and read the instructions.

The problems with any controller/game that I've seen is essentially the kids dont take time to read how the game is played or go through the tutorial and they become frustrated because "the game doesnt work". I think that's pretty much universal. :eek:

I do agree that some games have such insane button combinations it's hard to enjoy. In that regard simple is better. Of all the consoles I've played (not many) the 360 seems to be the best laid out and most simplified.

The 360 definintely has the best controller ive used in a whie, but i dont necessarily agree that control schemes just require practice and patience. Best example we have right now is a shooter on either portable system- the psp has issues without having dual analog sticks, but at least its got one. I played metroid prime hunters for quite a while on ds, using the stylus to aim. While it was kinda neat, its just painful after any sort of an extended period of time. Its cramped and uncomfortable, and while they give you an option to use dual dpads, its clearly not the way the game was intended to be played. Wiimote developers have some work to do in determining how to use it as a real, effective control tool, and not a cumbersome gimmick, because the technology alone could go either way. We can speculate about how it will work in practice, but its completely up to the developers. Its gonna be tougher to figure out than a regular controller.
 

Syphon Filter

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erwos said:
Don't think "instead of" - think "in addition to".

What comes to mind, for instance, would be a glove interface, like in Minority Report, where you manipulate objects in a far more natural fashion than a gamepad, keyboard, or even a mouse. The technology to do this is available right now, in fact.

-Erwos

to be honest i dont think you would need a glove to do that. The microsoft camera could have some software written for it that allows it to track hand/finger movements. Not sure how much of the CPU something like that would take up...but its definintely possible. No need for a seperate glove of any kind i dont think.
 
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Nothing like a backhanded compliment from Moore...

Anyways, it's too late for for the 360 to have a motion sensing/simplified controller. They missed the boat, to put it. They already have millions of 360s out. Anything they would release would probably 1) not sell that well 2) not have many games (I'm thinking eye toy...) You can't have a controller released after launch and expect eveyone to get it.
 

PoweredBySoy

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erwos said:
What comes to mind, for instance, would be a glove interface, like in Minority Report, where you manipulate objects in a far more natural fashion than a gamepad, keyboard, or even a mouse. The technology to do this is available right now, in fact.


Any gimmick controller that MS would release for the 360 at this point would fail.
 

K600

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tosp said:
Without the pretty HD graphics, what is the XBox 360? And don't spout me off some specs, they're irrelevant in any discussion.

Nothing anyone says here will matter; you've already proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that you're biased against Microsoft.

tosp said:
Peter Moore hit the nail on the head. The industry is headed on a path that will alienate even more gamers.

The vast majority of gamers seem to be just fine with the way things are. If you had said "potential gamers", you'd have a point; people who are already familiar with current gaming seem to be perfectly capable of adopting the complex controls that Sony/Microsoft offer.

tosp said:
A breath of fresh air is a good thing, certainly one that will last more than 30 minutes.

...assuming the control scheme works. There are going to be many genres in which this controller is nothing but a burden.
 

Domingo

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I really like the 360's controller...at least except the d-pad, but I think that's more placement than anything else. It's tough to use it as your primary means of control unless you've got gigantic hands. Hopefully we'll see a controller than swaps that with the left analog stick in order to better play stuff like fighting games.
In terms of Peter's comments, he's just stating that he'd like to see a change. That's not to say that he's jumping on the Wii style controller bandwagon, but more simply looking for a departure from current pads...and that the 360 might get such a thing.
 

amdgamer

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Bop said:
I just read this article here: http://www.gamespot.com/news/6152917.html

It says Immersion is partially owned by MS and they recently developed some new rumbling technology that can be used in motion sensing devices. Like when you hit a ball with a racket you get that "springy" feeling.

Looks like they might be up to something...


When you are a company as ambitious as Microsoft, you are always up to something. I believe that Microsoft has something planned, although it may be more along the lines of being a niche' product. However, Microsoft has some of the brightest economic and marketing minds the world has ever seen, and they have likely done lots of research to back up whatever buisness decision they plan on venturing into.
 

Zoramac

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Its just nice to see MS is open to other technologies and able to compliment them for what they are. Im sure Sony was a little different. to the public, "our remote is better and we are the only ones who innovate anything and everything" then in a hushed voice to his collegues "copy the design and we will say it was ours to begin with"
 

NulloModo

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tosp said:
Without the pretty HD graphics

Well, even without an HDTV (which there is no reason for anyone of reasonable means not to own anymore, they are damn cheap) the graphics are better.

But what was the SNES compared to the NES, the Genesis compared to Master System, the PS2 to the PS1, the Dreamcast to the Genesis, etc, except for better graphics and more buttons on the controller? Better graphics, sound, and more storage in the storage medium for games are enough for the vast majority of people to upgrade.

As to controllers:

I think the 360 controller has 2 too many, three shoulder buttons is too much, it should be one shoulder button and one trigger, that would be enough. But, there is always a bit of a learning curve.

It took me several hours to figure out the 360 controller for BF2, PD0, or Kameo, but now it feels pretty natural. In fact, now it is my third favorite controller I have ever used (behind the DS2 at #1 and the Genesis 6 button at #2).

I think this trend of building to the lowest common denominator will only hurt the industry. If people want to play, let them spend some time learning to do it. Any hobby requires a bit of time to learn the basic skills, games should be no different.
 

tosp

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K600 said:
Nothing anyone says here will matter; you've already proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that you're biased against Microsoft.

I asked you to answer a question and you sidestepped it. Congratulations Kreskin. Besides, if you can pinpoint a so-called bias (like I can pinpoint yours), it's there because of previous experience. Not because I just decided to be angry one day or because I'm in love with any particular company. You'd probably find it interesting if you knew where I worked, but that's not a topic of discussion. My point is that each system has its advantage, and it applies to everything when you say "when you take away variable X, all you have is variable Y".

The vast majority of gamers seem to be just fine with the way things are. If you had said "potential gamers", you'd have a point; people who are already familiar with current gaming seem to be perfectly capable of adopting the complex controls that Sony/Microsoft offer.

Correct. And that's why the gaming population hasn't grown beyond that bunch of core gamers for the last decade. There are many "lost gamers" out there, too. Add to that the fact that game sales have steadily decreased year after year, and publishers have almost forced developers to be cookie-cutter in execution. That's why more than 2/3 of the XBox 360 library is shooters, racers, and sports games and it will stay that way for the most part if you look at the release lists (in continuing the tradition of my original XBox). That's why PC gamers salavitate over the next episode of Half Life 2 and ask for Starcraft 2 in futility (WoW + expansions make too much cash for that). There is a reason why the DS is on fire right now, and it ain't because of me and you (the hardcore). Peter Moore knows all this, and that's why he is offering a vague assurance that he sees the future. Unfortunately Nintendo beat them to it, and Sony did their best month-copy (which is nowhere near as capable).

...assuming the control scheme works. There are going to be many genres in which this controller is nothing but a burden.

If a control scheme is a burden, they will change it. It's the same thing devs have been doing for years. If you ever pick up a game and the controls are shitty, take a look in the developer's direction and curse. Not the people who invented the controller. Contrary to popular belief, Nintendo knows exactly what they're doing - Sony and Microsoft both see that, if their PR execs are any indication.
 

K600

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tosp said:
I asked you to answer a question and you sidestepped it.

Wrong. The question has been answered, time and time again; without the "pretty HD visuals", you have a system with the most feature-filled and streamlined online services that ever existed (Console industry or otherwise). You have a superb controller, a wealth of offline options (Real-time streaming of music into all games), etc. etc.

tosp said:
And that's why the gaming population hasn't grown beyond that bunch of core gamers for the last decade.

...or maybe the other people just aren't interested in gaming. Most people don't approach gaming because of the stigma that it is somehow childish and less mature, not because they physically can't learn how to play.

Since when have game sales decreased year after year? The only industry that has significantly declined over the past decade is that of the PC industry.

Feel free to pinpoint my "bias" kid. The only bias I have is against Sony and their ridiculously overpriced options. I've already stated, on several occasions, the qualities of the Wii and my intentions of purchasing one. Shall I quote them for you, or are you content with the fact that you're the only one who obviously has some agenda here? It isn't my fault that you're too blinded by brand loyalty that you can't acknowledge when other companies contribute to the industry.

Here's a few:

K600 said:
I expect the PS3 to be noisy. The Wii will likely be quiet...Nintendo always seems to release very refined consoles in terms of manufacturing quality.

K600 said:
E3 settled it for me; Wii60 for me.

There are many good reasons to not pick Sony this time around. Missing MGS4 will sting, but giving $600 to a company as arrogant and useless as Sony has become is beyond my ability to do.

K600 said:
I'll buy it at either price, ironically enough...I was a huge skeptic of Nintendo but the demonstrations I saw of real games impressed me enough to make me want one.

Oh, and another example of my "bias" :rolleyes:

K600 said:
Sorry, but nobody who saw the best that the Dreamcast had to offer (Even at the end of its shelf-life, which was about half of what a normal console would last) would say that it was a generation behind the PS2. The Dreamcast was far from peaking in terms of hardware.
 

Darakian

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theNoid said:
I agree in a way. See even first party megaton Wii titles like Super Smash Brothers CANNOT use the Wiimote.

Got link? All I ever heard was that the game would be wavebird compatable since they didn't want to alienate older players. For all we know there may be multipul control schemes.
 

tosp

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K600, don't call me a kid - you don't know how old I am. Nor do you don't know who I am, and I (thankfully) do not know who you are. We are but individuals discussing things on a message board - and while rudeness generally exists on most message boards, it makes having a good discussion all that more difficult. Though I'm sure it doesn't help that there appears to be a lot of people impartial to Microsoft on this site, we would all be better served looking at these consoles with an open mind. As much as I see Sony's arrogance, don't count their system out until we've all had the chance to try it. The same goes for any system, whether you're a !!!!!! or not. I've been lurking since last year... and I've noticed something peculiar. When Nintendo revealed their controller in October, Sony and Microsoft fans all laughed and called it a gimmick TV remote. Then Sony releases a tilt controller, and suddenly motion sensing isn't so bad, unless you're a devotee to the XBox. Now with Microsoft and their toes dipped into motion-based gaming, they'll be the ones to take it "from a Nintendo gimmick to an industry standard" in the next gen, right? We should be playing these systems with more of an open mind and less of a bias. As I said above, don't knock it till you've tried it.

Now, in terms of the Wii, you certainly have more than just a controller as well, but many fail to realize what exactly they're charging the $200 for, especially since its processing power isn't bleeding edge (though, it is the CPU that was supposed to go into Apple's latest notebook before they went to Intel). I don't need to name them, as you surely have the capacity to google it if you so wish to read about the Wii's in-the-box extras (i.e. how much is MS charging for that wireless adapter again?). Congrats on complimenting the Wii, but that wasn't my point either. My point was that each console has its weakness and its strength, and that Moore can babble as much as he wants about wanting his 14 year old daughter to play games, but he'll have to get a Wii for that, because it will be designed for more than just us hardcore from the ground up (not as an afterthought or a download). I bet she already has a DS, anyway.

Now, if you don't think software sales are dropping for consoles as well, take a look at the latest stock value charts for all of the major companies, such as Activision, EA, etc... (all of which who are heavily invested into console development as well) - hell, the Times even took note (http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2006/06/18/business/20060619_GAME_GRAPHIC.html). Point is, the industry is in trouble. If it can't expand, it will eventually implode (maybe not as bad as the 80's crash, but look at hollywood for a good parallel). This is where Nintendo has it right, and why Moore and Harrison and all the other PR heads have been bobbling along with Nintendo's pioneering message: "we want to expand the market". We are a microcosm of what the potential of this industry could be, and I'm going to go on and predict that the XBox 720 and the PS4 are going to follow Nintendo's philosiphy in redesigning the interface (with arrogant Sony already trying very half-assed to do so). This is not my agenda, or an agenda that I'm trying to spread - this is just where the industry will head if it wants to survive on more than just its constant shooters, sports and racing titles. Here's hoping that Sony and Microsoft continue to hear that message. If Moore's recent comments are any indication (as well as the DS' sales and the hype of the Wii), they're certainly keeping an ear to the ground.
 

K600

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tosp said:
When Nintendo revealed their controller in October, Sony and Microsoft fans all laughed and called it a gimmick TV remote. Then Sony releases a tilt controller, and suddenly motion sensing isn't so bad, unless you're a devotee to the XBox. Now with Microsoft and their toes dipped into motion-based gaming, they'll be the ones to take it "from a Nintendo gimmick to an industry standard" in the next gen, right? We should be playing these systems with more of an open mind and less of a bias. As I said above, don't knock it till you've tried it.

People laughed because Nintendo didn't publicize the remote adequately. Instead, they did what Sony/Microsoft do in spouting a lot of buzz words and hype about how they were going to revolutionize the industry without providing any real substance to the mix. It's just another example of how their Wait-N-See approach to advertising bit them in the ass.

Sony, at the moment, is a laughing stock. They're the punchline to nearly every joke in the industry because they're wholly uninspired. Their executives are spouting off at the mouth like fools, their E3 presentation was laughable, and the low-tiered system is still far more expensive than even the highest options provided by their direct competition. The gradual acceptance to motion controllers began as soon as Nintendo finally decided to start showing us something legitimate.

tosp said:
Now, in terms of the Wii, you certainly have more than just a controller as well, but many fail to realize what exactly they're charging the $200 for, especially since its processing power isn't bleeding edge (though, it is the CPU that was supposed to go into Apple's latest notebook before they went to Intel). I don't need to name them, as you surely have the capacity to google it if you so wish to read about the Wii's in-the-box extras (i.e. how much is MS charging for that wireless adapter again?).

The Wii's in-the-box items haven't been announced yet. The wireless adapter for the Xbox 360 is expensive but most people don't seem to realize that it offers A/B/G connections.

Congrats on complimenting the Wii, but that wasn't my point either. My point was that each console has its weakness and its strength, and that Moore can babble as much as he wants about wanting his 14 year old daughter to play games, but he'll have to get a Wii for that, because it will be designed for more than just us hardcore from the ground up (not as an afterthought or a download). I bet she already has a DS, anyway.

tosp said:
Now, if you don't think software sales are dropping for consoles as well, take a look at the latest stock value charts for all of the major companies, such as Activision, EA, etc... (all of which who are heavily invested into console development as well) - hell, the Times even took note (http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2... first entry into the market, let alone Sony.
 

PoweredBySoy

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CodeX

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theNoid said:
I agree in a way. See even first party megaton Wii titles like Super Smash Brothers CANNOT use the Wiimote. Players are going to be forced to use the Gamecube controller to play SSB.

What are you talking about? :rolleyes:

Where do people come up with crap like this, of course you can use the wiimote to play any wii game :rolleyes:
 

Babbster

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At the risk of pushing this thread even further off-topic, I have this question for Peter Moore: What's wrong with your 14-year-old daughter that 8 buttons (including triggers) are hard for her to grasp? I was playing Commodore 64 games that made use of a couple-dozen buttons plus my [Atari-compatible] joystick while I was in middle school.

I don't disagree that gaming is more complex today than it used to be, but according to the way even adults thought back in the 80s that would be a good thing. Anyone remember the improved hand-eye coordination, problem-solving skills, etc. that were touted way back when? These days, all we hear about are how bad games are for kids, how they waste time and how kids need to get outside for their play.

I love the Wiimote concept and if it reaches 50% of the capability I'm anticipating, it'll be a blast to play with. But, added complexity isn't necessarily a bad thing unless it interferes with having fun. Considering how many games I've enjoyed on the Xbox over the past several years, it hasn't interfered much with mine...
 

vortexpud

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Babbster said:
At the risk of pushing this thread even further off-topic, I have this question for Peter Moore: What's wrong with your 14-year-old daughter that 8 buttons (including triggers) are hard for her to grasp? I was playing Commodore 64 games that made use of a couple-dozen buttons plus my [Atari-compatible] joystick while I was in middle school.

I don't disagree that gaming is more complex today than it used to be, but according to the way even adults thought back in the 80s that would be a good thing. Anyone remember the improved hand-eye coordination, problem-solving skills, etc. that were touted way back when? These days, all we hear about are how bad games are for kids, how they waste time and how kids need to get outside for their play.

I love the Wiimote concept and if it reaches 50% of the capability I'm anticipating, it'll be a blast to play with. But, added complexity isn't necessarily a bad thing unless it interferes with having fun. Considering how many games I've enjoyed on the Xbox over the past several years, it hasn't interfered much with mine...

Nothing is "wrong" with his daughter. Try bringing your grandmother, mother, hell almost anyone who's not a gamer, and pass her a DualShock or an X360 pad... and watch what happens. They'll spend more time looking down and trying to figure it out, rather than playing the game.
 
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