PC World - Win 8 Users Rarely Use Metro Apps

Discussion in 'Operating Systems' started by yossarian, May 24, 2013.

  1. Wrench00

    Wrench00 2[H]4U

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    No MS is not stuck doing the same thing indefinable but when you are jumping cold turkey then yes its a huge problem. Hence the evolution of the start menu and start button. Look at the progression from nt4/95 to 7. Then you go from 7 to 8 and its not a evolutionary change, its a revolutionary change. You just come off as a dick and pratt by insinuating people can't figure stuff out or are to lazy. You most likely grew up and studied or work with technology it brings an innate curiosity to find things. I'm sure a Mechanics can say the same about people as well when it comes to cars. Doctors to human functionality, Geologists to rocks. I use a powershell on servers, if you don't know how to use powershell I am not going to tell you you're to stupid to use a server.

    The software should be designed to be first and foremost USABLE. Having Usability in return usually results in good software. If MS feels that its a better usability to have gestures and obfuscated functionality then MS better sure as hell demonstrate and illustrate the benefits of such features.

    Telling people to go to youtube to find and answer is not an acceptable solution. People don't care that much about computers they have their own priorities if they can't figure something out they will get frustrated and put the said item down and walk away.

    Also what wrong with keep the same design if it works. Why reinvent the wheel. Change for the sake of change is not a good reason. Last time I checked cars have 4 wheels. Books still have covers and pages on the inside. Phones still have dial pads etc..
     
  2. yossarian

    yossarian Gawd

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    You probably have a point. If MS had Metro as an icon on the desktop to run touchscreen apps everybody probably would have thought it was cool and innovative to do it, and the improved usability of touch would be seen as a great step forward. Instead it's pushback of a mobile touchscreen interface forced on the tens of us still using our antiquated desktops in the future world of touchscreen tablets.
     
  3. yossarian

    yossarian Gawd

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    What does the growth of tablets relative to desktops have to do with abandoning a desktop OS in favor of a tablet OS? That's certainly where MS was heading until they felt the heat from the non-tablet users. OK, so desktops are a mature market and aren't growing. Even by 2017 desktops and laptops combined are still outselling tablets: http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20130326005216/en/Worldwide-Smart-Connected-Device-Market-Crossed-1

    What apps are there going to be that desktop users are going to look at tablet users with envy? A new Excel App with dual-window capability with up to 12 columns and 20 rows in large, colorful touch blocks? In the article showing the 20 most-used Win 8 apps, at least half are available with more functionality as desktop browser web links (maps, email, etc.).

    Somehow Apple has been able to thrive with a separate tablet OS and desktop/laptop OS without abandoning the desktop user.
     
  4. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    It's always confusing to me when I hear people say that Microsoft has abandoned the desktop in Windows 8 in favor of touch and tablets when since I use Windows 8 with no UI medication on a non-touch dual-display desktop everyday and the experience with desktop apps isn't that different from 7, in fact the new task bar is much nicer on a desktop than 7's.

    Yes, Windows 8 needs to be improved and some customization options need to be added and so forth. But the Start Button and Start Menu aren't the Windows desktop. They are conventions created 20 years ago in a world where the desktops and keyboards and mice were all there was in the realm of computing devices, no one even had laptops then. If Windows is to work with the devices that more and more people are using everyday, that 20 UI simply isn't going to cut it.

    So tablet growth is exploding and the desktop/laptop market is virtually flat. And in 2018 that data looks to be saying that tablets will outsell laptops and desktops combined.

    If desktop and laptop users were driving growth in the computing device market this question would have more market relevance. A better question is what desktop apps are tablet users going to look at and say "I need that on my tablet."

    Or you could just run Excel like I do everyday, even on a tablet. Office 2013 has some pretty decent support for touch and it still works like Office on a desktop with a keyboard and mouse.

    OS X is a tiny part of the desktop/laptop market and virtually all of Apple's growth has come from iOS mobile devices. Microsoft is leveraging Windows on tablets and that makes a lot of sense as Windows is much bigger than OS X and the conventional PC market has flat lined.
     
  5. Broons

    Broons [H]Lite

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    I've been using win8 for about a week now. Honestly, I don't really understand the negativity. I actually have been using metro apps a lot. Took me about 10 minutes of playing with it to figure out the basics. I'm not being a ms advocate or anything, just saying for me personally I am liking it and don't get the hate. My only gripes with it are mostly aesthetics with the tiles not being customizable without third party intervention.
     
  6. yossarian

    yossarian Gawd

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    There is no question that Win 8 was optimized for touch and only conceded to using the mouse and keyboard as an afterthought. How many times have I heard in these discussions how it's more efficient to not have a menu but to scatter program icons all over the desktop screen and to use keyboard shortcuts in place of missing buttons and menus? Why should the OS need customization for desktop users when Win 7 already had most of that worked out? If they would have just left that alone and added touch features instead of removing keyboard and mouse features you might have a point. There's no reason they couldn't have an OS that does it all and gives you the choice of the using the features that work best on your platform. But as this article says http://www.pcworld.com/article/261567/windows_8_hate_it_already_why_waiting_for_windows_9_wont_help.html MS had other ideas. Specifically, "You might argue that Microsoft should have left Windows alone while building a separate tablet OS on the side. But who would use the latter?

    Windows PC users would have little incentive to switch, which leaves Microsoft to figure out how to lure prospective iPad buyers. That's a tall order, and it certainly hasn't worked out for Android tablets, which aren't selling very well.

    Instead of going that route, Microsoft is using Windows 8 to force the transition for anyone who buys a new PC"


    Maybe we don't like to be forced.

    So what? So by 2018 tablets finally reach a similar number of sales as desktops/laptops? So a desktop OS isn't important even though they will still far outnumber tablets by 2018? Eventually, the tablets will reach a saturation point and growth will also diminish. Once the novelty wears off and people find they can't effectively do things they could with multiple 24" screens, multitasking capability, and a keyboard/mouse, they'll put down the tablet until it's time to leave home or the office. Desktops won't go away, everything will just even out and people will use the right tool for the right job.

    Desktops and laptops may not be driving growth, but MS is trying to leverage that installed base (which far outnumbers tablets now and long into the future) to force the buy-in to MS flavored tablets. But as this article indicates, that installed base doesn't give a crap about Win 8 apps. I don't know what desktop apps you refer to, the only apps are tablet apps that are just dumbed down elements of desktop programs designed for touch on small screens.

    A tablet with a keyboard and mouse is a laptop without a hinge. If you resort to using the mouse and keyboard I'd say the touch feature just failed. I can do anything with excel with a keyboard and mouse without reaching a point where I say, gosh, I need to use the touch feature right now...

    Yet the point remains that even with a small installed base of desktop OS, Apple succeeded in designing a separate tablet OS and continues to keep them separate without forcing desktop users into the tablet world. I don't really care if MS wanted to use one OS to do it all, and really no one else does either. They just needed to give users flexibility to use the OS features that are optimized for their platform without the forcing of elements that don't work well. And, as it appears MS has seen the light as they are making the changes (like boot to desktop) that should have been there to begin with because the customer base has forced them to change. In the end, MS has more to lose by alienating the installed base of desktop/laptops than to gain by forcing adaptation of the tablet OS for a small market share of an evolving platform. If they play their cards right, they can do both.
     
  7. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    It's not that Windows 8 was optimized for touch and tablets but features were added to it to make it more touch and tablet friendly. The removal of the Start Button and Start Menu and the changes to Search are the big issues when it comes to the desktop and keyboards and mice and for some the changes are problematic and I've said many times things do need to be improved in the new UI to make them work better on the desktop. But having used Windows 8 on a desktop with keyboards and mice for nearly two years, it really isn't all that different from 7 on the desktop when you get used to it. 7 doesn't really support anything better on the desktop than 8 though I do understand the differences trip people up.

    Tablets are more than just about the iPad. They are a form factor that provide a lot of convenience and mobility and people seem to like them a lot judging by their explosive growth.

    It's not zero sum situation. I doubt many people wanting systems with multiple monitors are getting tablets for that purpose but they may want a tablet as something more portable. A Windows 8 tablet allows for external monitors, keyboards and mice and could be a convenient all-in-one solution for someone that wants to be able to use a traditional desktop and software and then be able to pick up that device and use it like a tablet.

    The term "app" has been around forever and people have been using the phrase "desktop app" forever as well to denote an application as one that runs locally and web based. And Microsoft isn't leveraging an installation base, that base already bought its hardware and software. Microsoft is leveraging Windows itself to create a tablet ecosystem that can work well as desktop and a tablet. And that does have appeal because it does allow Windows 8 tablet users to continue to use their existing software on a tablet plus get the benefit of a tablet in one device. At this point it is probably the best strategy that Microsoft has. As for the supposed non-interest in Metro apps, at this point that's not really surprising in that this stuff is 7 months old compared to the decades old Windows desktop. But again, I wonder how many desktop apps people are using as well. It's probably common where a person who uses few Metro apps is probably not using that many desktop apps as well. I bet the average person probably only uses a few desktop apps day in and out.

    Again, it's not zero sum. You can't use a keyboard and mouse easily while standing or walking around. Touch is just another option where others might not work as well. Pages, Numbers and Keynote are among the very best selling iPad apps. It seems that people want to be able to have access to these capabilities on a touch tablet even if they are also using keyboards and mice.

    As I've said plenty of times, things do certainly need to be improved in 8 but some of the complaints are kind of trivial. Booting to desktop I think is one of the trivial ones but since a lot of people complain about it and since it is pretty trivial then sure, make it an option. Thing is though that there's nothing on most people's desktops but a static background and maybe some shortcuts. So boot to the desktop to start up an app or open a folder that could be done from the Start Screen.
     
  8. devil22

    devil22 2[H]4U

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    How does one quantify 'revolutionary' change? I mean, you click in the same area, then a list of yours apps comes up in both 7 and 8, then you click your app and use it. It's not as big a difference as you imagine, I think. I just don't think the concept is that hard to understand, even if you don't use computers every day. By contast, 3.1 -> 95 seemed a bigger paradigm shift, and that was handled with ease. I think the issue is people are emotionally attached to the old method, that's all.

    That's probably how it WAS designed, but you just got done saying it should stay the same without consideration. You use biased terms to described the interface, you could call it obfuscated, and you could call steak "future poop" but I prefer to term the interface "uncluttered". You always seem to worry about some hypothetical new user, why not worry about yourself? Do you forget where the charms bar is? Or is more likely that you know exactly where it is, and keeping a visible item to click on there would just clutter up your screen, like it would for me, and most anyone here? Focusing on the lowest common computer user denominator seems really short sighted, and silly, though I'm sure they really appreciate you looking out for them like that.

    It's perfectly acceptable imo for people who want to know more or can't figure out the basics for whatever reason. MS could have included a complete tutorial with Win 8, but said it's studies showed people don't watch them, so they didn't bother. Seems to me, if you're not going to watch a tutorial that comes with the OS (and OEMs also have tutorials on their PCs), then you might as well go look at a youtube video if you want to know something that you otherwise can not figure out. Otherwise the solution is that MS can never change the interface, because in your view, people are too lazy to figure it out, or watch a 2 minute youtube video. Basically MS needs to hire someone to come to your house and show you around the new OS then? I know computers are not easy for novices, but they're not rocket science either.

    Why doesn't everything stay the same if there's no need to reinvent the wheel? Some things progress, others stay the same, UIs are one of those things that can progress, I mean isn't this obvious?
     
  9. yossarian

    yossarian Gawd

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    The app that MS is trying to popularize is not a desktop app, but a Metro app. The desktop already has full functionality, but the Metro interface (apps) do not. And I think you have it reversed - MS wants you using apps on desktop systems, not desktop programs on the tablet. Considering desktop programs aren't touch optimized, why would anyone want to use them on tablets except to just open files?

    If desktop users only used an average of 1.4 programs a day like they do Metro apps, there wouldn't be much point to turning on the computer. Everyday when I work I use 10-12 different programs a day. I use several more when I get home. I typically have 3 - 6 operating at a time. you know, multitasking that Metro does so well. But then with a real desktop browser I can do what it takes a dozen apps in Metro to equal.

    My guess is they aren't looking for desktop capabilities as much as they are looking for a viewer and the ability to make quick, simple changes when desktop access is difficult. My work has tablets now too, and by far they are used to access files from the company server in meetings or to view plans in the field. I've never seen anyone use them to create serious content. And no one has turned in their desktop for a tablet, although many did switch to laptops with docking stations when we upgraded a couple years ago.
     
  10. yossarian

    yossarian Gawd

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    My guess is that fewer than half the Win 8 users have a clue that a half-dozen pixels in the corner under the Windows Explorer task bar icon is a simplified start menu. Since the guidance so often given is to put all your most used programs in the taskbar would providing a visual cue for the menu clutter your desktop? for that matter, why not unclutter it completely and remove the taskbar too? Maybe MS can just have us use keyboard shortcuts or mouse gestures assigned to everything you want to run?
     
  11. devil22

    devil22 2[H]4U

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    I don't know how you make the jump from something being uncluttered when not needing to be seen, to everything must be uncluttered at the expense of everything else. The start menu button, is pure clutter, you do not need to see it. The task bar is useful to see your running programs and their state (with the task bar progress bar feature). Also keyboard shortcuts and mouse gestures are more effort, it does not require more effort to activate the start screen than the start menu, and you would have to remember the dynamic list of programs you are running which is not feasible for a human where as it is perfectly feasible to remember the start menu location and charms bar location. Also I run with the task bar auto-hidden (so I already do what you would advocate if you were a little more consistant), and do think that should be the default. (edit: Most people probably run more programs than me, so I can understand why auto-hide taskbar is not the default.)
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2013
  12. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    Of course Microsoft is trying to popularize Metro apps, they're pretty much still brand new compared to decades old desktop apps. And why wouldn't Microsoft want people to use desktop apps on a tablet? That's a key part of Microsoft's tablet strategy, work and play on a single device. Of course the idea would be to use desktop apps with a keyboard and pointing device, thus the Type and Touch covers that the Surface offers. But some desktop apps do work reasonably well with touch, like Office 2013.

    If one of those 1.4 programs is a web browser then yes, there's still plenty of reasons to turn on the computer. This survey wasn't probably done on too many work machines as it was compiled using a program to track usage which wouldn't be too cool on most business devices. As for multitasking, no that's not a strength of Metro but it is being improved in 8.1. I have no idea what you mean by a real desktop browser equaling a dozen Metro apps. IE 10 Metro is a real desktop browser, just no plug ins or add ins beyond Metro. And your real desktop browser wouldn't be able to able to use Kindle or Nook books, support DX 11 gaming, digital ink, etc.

    Not really what you're point is here. I never said that people were replacing tablets for content creation tasks. My point is that people seem to want the ability to have that capability available to them on tablets when needed. I agree that most tablet users would want these abilities for viewing and smaller creation tasks. And that's why Windows 8 on a tablet with Office 2013 is pretty cool in that you can use the same applications for both tablet and desktop use.
     
  13. jimh425

    jimh425 Gawd

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    I'm using a Windows 8 touch computer right now. I find I use apps about as much as I do on my Nexus 10 ... not very much. I spend most of my time in browsers. I don't think this is something specific to Windows 8.
     
  14. wtburnette

    wtburnette 2[H]4U

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    Metro sucks to me because I don't like it. I'm not trying to convince you, or anyone, to feel the same, I'm just expressing my opinion. Even if I posted a laundry list of reasons why it sucks, that's not likely to sway anyone. What I'm saying is, I agree with the OP that phone apps on a desktop are completely retarded, at least to me. As soon as this was announced for Win8 I thought it was a bad idea and using it only confirmed that in my mind. I went in, loaded up a ton of apps and over the course of the 2 months I had it on a system, I used them maybe once or twice each. Just didn't find the appeal. Again, this is MHO and I don't really care what anyone else thinks. I just believe that MS could solve a lot of their problems by allowing desktop users to customize their UI to fit their own needs. I don't think this would hurt the adoption of Win8, or the adoption of Microsoft's mobile devices, since that's what the forced integration is really about. I've used Windows 8 on a desktop, laptop and Surface RT. I loved it on the Surface (though it's overpriced and almost useless since it was an RT model) and I liked it okay on a laptop with a touchscreen. I hate it on the desktop. This is why I say that they should give desktop users a choice.

    This.
     
  15. yossarian

    yossarian Gawd

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    It's specific to Win 8 because it's the only desktop OS to enable mobile apps. For me, using my Android phone for example, I use apps in most cases to simplify using my touch screen with a 3.75" screen. Try using Amazon in a web browser versus using the Amazon app. The app is a lot easier on the small screen because there's too many little parts to the conventional web page. Now, if I'm using a desktop computer, an Amazon app is silly to use when I can open the conventional web page on my huge screen. I can't think of a single Win 8 app that doesn't have a better, more useful full version or web site for a conventional desktop.

    And ultimately that's why nobody is using the apps MS is pushing. They wanted to use the base of desktops using Windows to generate the demand for apps and give a boost for the development of apps needed as the tablets came online. But since apps aren't desired for desktop use the demand didn't happen. Question is, is will demand for apps ever happen since Win 8 is generally installed on large screen tablets that can use full-featured software desktop users already have? Providing the desktop capability in the OS for tablets is partly to blame for the lack of mobile app demand I believe.
     
  16. yossarian

    yossarian Gawd

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    A 50/50 screen split option is improved multitasking? Really?

    I didn't mean that a browser would replace all apps and games. The point is that many apps are simply shopping or web page alternates. Looking at the apps on my Android phone: Amazon, Newegg, Facebook, Calendar, Gmail, Calculator, Google Maps, Ebay, Kroger, Walmart, Lowes, Home Depot, Pandora. There are others, but every one of these on a desktop is better in a browser than in an app. And I have no trouble accessing Kindle books in the cloud reader in Firefox. Don't know about Nook, I don't use that one.
     
  17. devil22

    devil22 2[H]4U

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    I don't really understand why metro matters to people who don't like, you can simply unpin the metro apps and just pin your favorite desktop apps. Even from that perspective, I like Win 8 better because you get faster access to more of your favorite apps. However, people have to realize that if Windows does not accommodate the new market realities, Windows will suffer, and they as Windows users will suffer. MS needs the tablet market, and they can not just offer JATD (just another tablet device), they would stand no chance against incumbents and perennial fanboy favorites google and apple. They have to offer something that nobody else has. That something would be, a unified phone-tablet-(huge)desktop environment for developers, and an *optional* unified platform for users who were so inclined to want the same experience on all devices. Giving developers potential access to the huge desktop market when/if they decide to make metro apps, is an extra incentive to develop for and keep Windows relevant, to a higher degree. For (noob) users, metro apps are safe and simple, and give you an option to the dangers of the web. If you like Windows, you really should support this. For desktop pros, like I said, you can just unpin metro apps. Personally I find some useful, and interesting to play with occasionally.
     
  18. ShuttleLuv

    ShuttleLuv [H]ardness Supreme

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    Apps are good for phones, but no not windows 8. Never use them.
     
  19. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    It's more than this. A screen can be split variably horizontally into two, three or four sections depending on the screen resolution. I think it's a very practical way to handle multiple onscreen apps.

    Again, it's not zero sum or mutually exclusive. Metro apps tend to work better on a tablet. But some people may even want to use those on the desktop. I actually like the Newegg Metro app better than the web site and it's still nice having the app because the live tile presents Shell Shocker deals.
     
  20. FM 3370

    FM 3370 Gawd

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    Does the Desktop count as a Metro App? :)
     
  21. Eman D. Rahym

    Eman D. Rahym Limp Gawd

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    LOL! Windows 8 sure treats it as a Metro App! :D
     
  22. devil22

    devil22 2[H]4U

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    In addition to the new splitting abilities for single screen, 8.1 allows multiple metro apps on different monitors at the same time, another improvement to multi-tasking. I'm personally looking forward to that a lot, I'd like to run metro apps on my hdtv mounted above my monitor, but they close any time I click into the start screen to run anything currently.
     
  23. Fort_Major

    Fort_Major Limp Gawd

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    Any Process Engineer would tear everything about Windows 8 apart.

    Process engineers combined with modern technology help identify areas where something like 1/10th of a step shaved off a process can save a company like GM 2.3 Million dollars in a single year.

    Windows 8 and probably all future OSes that further make disseminating information difficult, hiding common actions, hiding information, removing functionality, will probably cost companies Trillions of dollars in unrealized costs.
     
  24. devil22

    devil22 2[H]4U

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    Well don't keep us in suspense, tear everything about it apart. Since obviously MS can't afford it's own 'process engineers' to analyze it's billions of dollars a quarter product.
     
  25. Fort_Major

    Fort_Major Limp Gawd

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    Actually no need to hear it from a purported Holiday Inn Express. There's several companies who have publishes their findings on Windows 8's lack of discover-ability, the extra clicks required to do basic tasks, and the effects that Metro has on the users.

    You also should not and would not expect Microsoft to hire Process engineers. That's Google. As far as the end-user usability is concerned: Microsoft (especially now) hires the people Google doesn't hire, And Google hires the people that Microsoft doesn't hire.

    A summarization of a study by a company who does nothing but analyzes user usage of computers/hardware and software was published in the IEEE publication a few months back.

    There's several other articles written (again by companies who are in the business of nothing but this) that point out the same things.

    There's also a fair share of (what I would expect to be credible in hind sight) rumors of Microsoft being so set on "Metro" that they ignored just about every single Study group that was saying the same thing that consumers and business are saying today.

    It's confusing,
    it takes longer to do a large percentage of tasks.
    In the attempt to "declutter" they've removed virtually any valuable information.
    In the attempt to "dechrome" everything they've resorted to creating numerous interfaces where actions and "very important" information is surfaced as plain text that melds with everything else. This results in an interface where users have no idea what to click on, no idea what is capable of interaction(which is funny because when you're using Windows Metro on a swipe you have no mouse to comb over the whole screen pixel by pixel and see what change the cursor into, which is quite often the ONLY clue you have to what an action is.

    The end user also has no idea "what" information is important, and seems to mostly be encouraged to ignore all actions, warnings, errors or reasons why they should be using that screen or that program.

    There's a screen in Windows Server 2012 that is suppose dto be the "focal point" for the Enterprise and anybody managing it.

    On the screen - there are no links and there are almost no buttons so you have to hunt or guess (not too bad because most people using this are smarter than the average joe)
    Then it shows the things that are going on with the server, Warnings, Errors, Audits.
    This "important" information is literally squished together and does nothing to highlight errors.

    Imagine that, logging onto a server to do something, going to your home screen where you're supposed to see and do everything with the server and you completely ignore 3 critical errors because the text is squished and there are no icons to notify that there was an error. Had the text columns not been squished and had there been icons 10 different people who logged onto that server would have realized the 3 critical errors that needed to be addressed. Instead they didn't. A hint, that 11th person was not as chjeap as the 9th person nor was he as cheap as the 4th person nor was he as cheap as the 1st person.
     
  26. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    When I read stuff like this and compare it to my daily use of Windows 8 while I can understand some of the points the overall conclusions just don't mesh for me when I've seen 8 year olds pick up a Windows 8 tablet and have no problems using it.
     
  27. Wrench00

    Wrench00 2[H]4U

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    Yes asking MS how much more efficient Windows 8 is akin to asking a Fox in the Hen House the chickens taste like.

    You need an independent body to do the study.

    *sarcasm on* no company has ever lied about a product about how much better it is because its new *sarcasm off*
     
  28. Wrench00

    Wrench00 2[H]4U

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    That's your anecdotal evidance.

    Problem with you 8 Year old is that they haven't been socially engineered for the last 20 years to use a start menu. 8 years old also has't developed a process or a workflow for content creation or modification. I am willing to bet that 8 year old has been exposed to consumption computing (98%)and very little to actual creating content. I doubt your 8 year old creates Sharepoint Site Collections, or web collections.

    Take your same situation and apply it to some one that in their 40's or 30's, hell I have seen 20 some year old get frustrated as fuck with Windows 8.

    My anecdotal evidence has shown me one thing is that people despise windows 8. They refuse to use it. Its so bad at some of my clients that brand new machines are shunned for celeron powered xp machines.

    People refuse to use 8 with out a start menu replacement.

    any who the best thing about windows 8 is

    Get-AppxPackage –AllUsers | Remove-AppxPackage

    Get-AppxProvisionedPackage –online | Remove-AppxProvisionedPackage –online

    Sure makes quick work of de-crapifying a OEM machine.
     
  29. heatlesssun

    heatlesssun [H]ard as it Gets

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    I think that everyone understands this issue. Any change to something that's old and familiar will cause problems for some people, that's just how it works.

    I imagine that most 8 year olds have created SharePoint site collections. As far as process or workflow goes on the desktop, it's not necessarily that different between 7 and 8 because work isn't done in the Start Menu or Start Button.

    I don't doubt it, however with a little time upfront in instruction the older people I've setup with Windows 8 really haven't had much issue with it. Microsoft didn't do enough to educate and help transition users but it's not an impossible task.

    Ok. I don't think that average people really care enough about it one way or another to despise 8.

    Seems like a lot of people around here haven't refused and there have been a lot of reported downloads of these utilities.
     
  30. SuperSubZero

    SuperSubZero 2[H]4U

    Messages:
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    We adjust. We adjusted to microwaves and remote controls on our TVs and electric cars and automated toll booths. We adjusted to the internet and swirly light bulbs and cell phones. Lots of these were replacements for incumbent thinking that was in place most of our lives. Grandpa eventually figured out how to use a touch tone telephone, I think the Start screen in Windows 8 is not that much of a stretch.
     
  31. devil22

    devil22 2[H]4U

    Messages:
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    No company has ever told the truth. No fan boy hater has ever lied. No 3rd party independent has ever lied. etc.

    The theory being, process engineers would help MS make Win 8 better, and make them money, if you think MS is lying to hurt Win 8, well might as well not have a discussion because it won't be based on rational thought.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2013
  32. devil22

    devil22 2[H]4U

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    Wasn't confusing for me, gee I must be really smart.

    Like what? The only major change, was metro apps and the start screen, the start screen is faster since you launch a larger number of apps in fewer clicks than the start menu. The metro apps have no analogue in Win 7, so there's nothing to compare the time it takes to complete a task in them to, and comparing them against desktop apps is nonsensical since they are not meant to kill off desktop apps and replace them.


    "any valuable information" - is this supposed to be a serious debate? Yea, I thought not. Any way, care to explain? Literally, I could say I see every piece of information I find valuable, and the decluttering makes it look much more organized. Man, I hope you aren't talking about the start menu button..?

    Again you could not give one example. And this is basically only a problem for noobs, and by problem, I mean it will take you like 10 seconds to realize something that says 'Change PC settings' that has no other indication, is the fricken thing you click to change PC settings. After that you always remember, and enjoy a less cluttered interface.
    Again you could not give one example. I can't even think of any 'information' Windows gives you on the desktop where noobs will be, except in action center and metro notifications (which are exclusive to Win 8, so that's more notification than before.) Are you like talking of some change to event viewer or some tool of that nature, I wasn't aware there were any relevant changes there. See why it would help to give *one* example?
    The events box in Server Manager shows 7 items on my system, and is a scrollable box, beyond that you *ought* to have to look, if you want event info filling your screen, open the damned event log viewer. Edit: You should use it long enough to learn it's simple name, if you are going to drag it through the mud.

    Yea, or you know, use email alerts for event log errors or the old interface, or powershell, or myriad of tools, but yea.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2013
  33. Wrench00

    Wrench00 2[H]4U

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    Yes people did but people had also the choice of buying or not buying the said product and the adoption of such technologies were not done overnight.
    These technologies took decades to adapt to, and they were far simpler then an operating system.