PayPal's new refund policy has sellers up in arms

WorldExclusive

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The positive side of this is that it should help to further curtail shady (and outright) dishonest and fraudulent sellers.

Increasing the cost of use of legitimate users to weed out the bad ones? Another policy change that penalizes people that follow the rules.
 

nightfly

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The answer is, to simply not use paypal. Go back to the old way of doing things, where you have the buyer mail you a check. Of course, this will severely limit the number of customers willing to do business with you, but hey, if you want maximum profits that's the way to go. Ebay and Paypal expanded your number of potential buyers by millions; sometimes you have to pay a bit more for that kind of exposure.
I mostly buy online, and I've been sold stuff that wasn't what it was supposed to be a half dozen times. Every time, I got my money back. Why? Paypal. Now, I know every single seller will chime in with, 'Well, I'M an HONEST seller and I shouldn't have to wind up paying more just because SOME people cheat their customers!' Great. Then open a webstore and do it all on your own. Eventually word of mouth will work to your advantage and you will become a trusted merchant. Might take a while, though.
 
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I stopped selling stuff on eBay with the forced used of PayPal years ago, because of the horror stories that buyers can take advantage of the flawed system PayPal has, though it has never happened to me, but selling items that has high value using PayPal puts you at risk if you encounter a dishonest buyer who will try to get their money back and keeping your item. The 180 day money back guarantee is also bullshit as well and allows the buyer to change their mind at anytime within that timeframe.

The high fees on eBay turned me off; fair enough I'm using their service and you need to pay a fee, but the thing that worries me that some people are dishonest and will try to scam you into getting a freebie and most of the time eBay and PayPal will side with the buyer, it's not worth it.
 

Grimlaking

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This is a pure money grab by Paypal. If they can cut down on overhead by making it a net loss for scammers to scam and bill enough to cover their man hours on the refund process it turns into a + on the balance sheet to protect consumers rather than an cost of doing business.

It's not fair.. I think it should be reputation based with a sliding scale. "Welcome to Paypal our transaction fee for returns when you first start is 5 dollars. Maintain at least 3 sales a week for a month with no returns for 3 months then our transaction fee for returns drops to 2.50, after six months with no returns the fee drops to 0. But after that if your account is still secure and you have more than xx returns in a 6 month period the introductory fee returns. If this continues for 3 months it climbs to 10 dollars per return transaction...."

You get the idea. An actual sliding scale that will make it harder for scammers to scam.
 

ManofGod

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IDK how eBay stays in business. As a seller it sucks. With all the fees you have yo pay to eBay and PayPal it makes it not worth it. Mostly as a seller you have little recourse if the buy fucks you.

I have sold stuff on here using paypal and yes, I have to pay the fees. That said, it also covers me in case something goes wrong.
 

RanceJustice

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Are you thinking of privacy.com?

Yes, thank you. Couldn't remember the name. Honestly, I'm somewhat skeptical of a 3rd party trying to do what they claim and I wonder how well it will thrive with regards to merchant acceptance.
 

pillagenburn

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Paypal needs to be broken up and their tech needs to be doled out to the resultant spin-offs.

that will not happen though.
 

DukenukemX

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Doesn’t matter, I had no returns on one of my listings. Paypal refunded the buyer for change of mind anyway and gave me no say in it.
I love those kinda of Ebay postings as I just ignore the "No Return" or "Sold as Is" nonsense. It either works or it don't and if it don't then take it back.
I have removed paypal completely now, buyers can live with it or go elsewhere, I wont be pressured into using them anymore.
I'm aware of those type of sellers and just pay attention that I use credit cards and can dispute charges. You are not immune from a return and refund, and in a lot of cases I get to keep the shit and the money. With PayPal you can at least dispute the argument but with my credit card company in most cases they'll take back the money and you're screwed.
 

westrock2000

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Looks like I am charging the buyer a restock fee now for refunds and stating that in my description on why that is.

If they allow it. Some of these services specifically say you cannot openly state you are charging extra for the fees. Probably to make sure buyers don't see what the service provider charges. It's better for the cost to appear to come from the seller...makes them the bad guy.
 

Rvenger

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If they allow it. Some of these services specifically say you cannot openly state you are charging extra for the fees. Probably to make sure buyers don't see what the service provider charges. It's better for the cost to appear to come from the seller...makes them the bad guy.

I'll add a shipping charge on ebay and state it below what the shipping charge is for and not refund the shipping charge. If ebay wants to suspend me for that then I can take my business elsewhere.
 

Shadow_Foxx

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Yes, thank you. Couldn't remember the name. Honestly, I'm somewhat skeptical of a 3rd party trying to do what they claim and I wonder how well it will thrive with regards to merchant acceptance.

If its any consolation, IIRC the CEO of privacy.com is the former VP of privacy at American Express. But I agree with you, privacy.com even lets you change how the charge appears on your credit card, and lets you change the address associated with their virtual cards. Seems like it could be abused, but hopefully they have it under control.
 

Lateralus

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privacy.com even lets you change how the charge appears on your credit card

Really?

So I can make all of my purchases from Porn and Gun Warehouse show up as coming from GiftsForBestWives.com, huh?

Will have to look into this...
 

Shadow_Foxx

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Really?

So I can make all of my purchases from Porn and Gun Warehouse show up as coming from GiftsForBestWives.com, huh?

Will have to look into this...

Ha, I wish. I believe its more like, do you want this transaction to show as "privacy.com" or "gunmagwarehouse.com - Privacy.com". So at lease there is plausible deniability. :)

Ill admit I havent looked into it for a while, but I believe that is how it was at one point at least.
 
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Anyone know of a better PayPal alternative that has something similar to their IPN and doesn't cost as much for receiving payments online for a small business?
 

Burticus

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Well that sucks. I don't sell on ebay much anymore but I have a bunch in the past... I have no idea how that is even possible without paypal (if you are selling). I also use Paypal to pay for stuff I buy here on Hardforum. Ebay got me through some dark times when I was unemployed and had to sell off my "toys" to buy food, what else we supposed to do? Pawn shops are a total joke.

Time to check out Google pay I guess?
 

NKD

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As far as I'm concerned every website is shady. They're not getting my card info, leaving paypal as the only option to pay.

every website is shady but paypal is not a website? lol. Or you are telling me you have nothing linked to PayPal website? Stop throwing your CC at every website. Or you are saying you haven't bought anything at Amazon either or newegg? Never had an issue with Newegg, Amazon, Walmart etc, not once. So no not every website. Might as well cut your CC and throw it away. Do you have any idea how much fraud prevention goes with most major credit card companies? They know it before you most of the time that its not you using the card and issue full refund or block transactions.
 

M76

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every website is shady but paypal is not a website? lol. Or you are telling me you have nothing linked to PayPal website? Stop throwing your CC at every website. Or you are saying you haven't bought anything at Amazon either or newegg? Never had an issue with Newegg, Amazon, Walmart etc, not once. So no not every website. Might as well cut your CC and throw it away. Do you have any idea how much fraud prevention goes with most major credit card companies? They know it before you most of the time that its not you using the card and issue full refund or block transactions.
What is better, giving your card info to dozens of sites, or giving it to one reputable company? And linking your paypal to any subscription service does not give them your card information to be stolen.
Obviously it's not that all individual sites have malicious intent per se, it is that I don't trust them to keep my card information secure. If I can choose I use my paypal account rather than giving out my card info to yet another business.

I've had my card information stolen before, it's a hassle, and a scare I'd rather avoid. Having sleepless nights waiting to see whether my money is refunded or not is not that great. Since then I'm very selective about who gets my card info.
Amazon is a bigger and longer standing business than paypal, so I assume they have ample security in place too. So of course #notall. Obviously when I said all I didn't mean the largest online retailer in the word by magnitudes. But small to medium sized subscription services / online shops.
 

Mr. Bluntman

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Not to mention most of the things I sell can somehow be purchased from China with free shipping for LESS than it costs me to ship the same Item to my brother who lives 2 miles away. (used old CPUs).. go figure.

Thing is, it can take 3-6 weeks for said item to arrive from China. Rather than risk getting a fake or wait that long I only buy it if it ships from North America, even if it's a higher price. I am sure I am not the only one that thinks this way.
 

Lumpus

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I have an eBay and Etsy store and just don't see any current (reasonable) alternatives to Paypal.

As someone noted earlier - not accepting returns will solve some of this new problem. I started to have weird return problems about six months once eBay tried to force 30-day free returns on sellers but that issue stopped once I forced my sales settings to 'No Returns'.
 

GT98

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I think it's a good idea since there's so many sellers that screw people. It would act as a deterrent to stop sellers from being dicks. I just bought something off Ebay and the seller has vanished, so of course I worry that the guy took the money and ran. This has happened before and I have to ask for a refund. This seller did respond and said he shipped it but the tracking number shows nothing.

I ran into this with sellers from China with another hobby I have-I ordered 3 different things from two vendors-both of them where shady as fuck-one sent a fake tracking number (never did anything) and the other never provided a tracking number, accepted the payment nearly 29 days later (pushing back the time I could make a claim) before it automatically came back to me. I just recently got the $$$ money refunded or returned to me, but that left a bad taste in my mouth.
 

Flogger23m

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I have an eBay and Etsy store and just don't see any current (reasonable) alternatives to Paypal.

As someone noted earlier - not accepting returns will solve some of this new problem. I started to have weird return problems about six months once eBay tried to force 30-day free returns on sellers but that issue stopped once I forced my sales settings to 'No Returns'.

I suppose some will be deterred by that but I think by now most scammers know that you can go directly via PayPal instead of Etsy and ebay.
 

luisxd

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I've beeb using paypal for years but lately i've been using my debit card directly, their exchange rate to buy us dollars is too high, even when it should be low
 

NIZMOZ

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I have an eBay and Etsy store and just don't see any current (reasonable) alternatives to Paypal.

As someone noted earlier - not accepting returns will solve some of this new problem. I started to have weird return problems about six months once eBay tried to force 30-day free returns on sellers but that issue stopped once I forced my sales settings to 'No Returns'.

FYI, there is no such thing as no returns with Ebay or PayPal. They will force the seller to accept a return of there is an issue.
 

Sycraft

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this is gonna get expensive for me.... i have a business on ebay, and i cancel $1500+ transactions on a regular basis. people buy the wrong (expensive) items all the time, or want items rush shipped for free so i have to cancel orders on a regular basis.

but on the other hand... whats my option? i can fuck around with ebays managed payments, or close up my shop.

Maybe take cards directly with Square or Stripe? Don't know what their policies are like but it has gotten much easier for individuals to take cards.
 

Cartbird78

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I remember back in the olden times i sold a hard drive to a guy on Ebay. I ended up getting hosed by the buyer. There was no doubt that was his intention. Paypal/Ebay screwed me of course. Never again.
 

HAL_404

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If they allow it..

oh, eBay definitely allows restocking fees and backs deceptive sellers who post fraudulent restocking fee policies. I know this is true from personal experience there. I showed them how one of the policies was fraudulently deceptive and eBay gave me eBay credit (had to spend it within 30 days though I didn't need to buy anything at that time and it was a $60 credit) but never made the seller take down the policy. The seller was, of coarse, a mega seller :cautious:
 
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I use things like Western Union for international payments. There is little stopping sellers from supporting alternative payment methods apart from laziness.
 

YeuEmMaiMai

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well what's the problem here? Paypal needs another "profit center" aka revenue stream
 

sleepeeg3

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I know they don't protect sellers very well, but in my experience of selling stuff on Ebay and two shady people bought from me, they protected me as the seller as I had all my ducks in a row.

When you deal in virtual goods, Paypal is much friendlier to the seller.
Unlink your PayPal bank account or use a different service. PayPal are crooks - treat them like the thieves they are.

I sold 3 Xbox Digital Gift Cards. 3 different buyers purchased these from me. All of them filed a complaint with PayPal after I sent the code. PayPal refunded their money, took money out of my bank account and charged me the transaction fee! The buyers seemed like bots or knew about the scam. Only one of them responded to any messages. My return settings have been set to "no returns" before there was even a return section in eBay.

I've been using PayPal since 2000 and this is not the first time they have burned me on buyer fraud.
 
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pillagenburn

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I sold 3 Xbox Digital Gift Cards. 3 different buyers purchased these from me. All of them filed a complaint with PayPal after I sent the code. PayPal refunded their money, took money out of my bank account and charged me the transaction fee! The buyers seemed like bots or knew about the scam. Only one of them responded to any messages.

I've been using eBay/PayPal since 2000 and this is not the first time they have burned me on buyer fraud.

Unlink your PayPal bank account or use a different service. PayPal are crooks - treat them like the thieves they are.

They are more than crooks, they are part of an e-commerce cartel that needs to be broken up. They dictate terms to US, the plebian users of their service
 
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