PayPal Tells Buyer To Destroy Violin Instead Of Returning It

Rob94hawk

2[H]4U
Joined
Jul 20, 2002
Messages
2,222
The buyer must feel like a complete dooshbag right now for recking something historically valuable as that. And of course let's not leave out Paypal who I dropped recently.
 

Elios

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Aug 12, 2004
Messages
7,282
The buyer must feel like a complete dooshbag right now for recking something historically valuable as that. And of course let's not leave out Paypal who I dropped recently.

unless this is a case of fraud in which the buyer IS a dooshbag for pulling this stunt
 

Brak710

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Oct 27, 2008
Messages
1,424
I only use Paypal since I need to sell on eBay. I really wish Amazon would open up a better auction site, or at least make it so individual sellers can list unique items. $39 a month isn't much to list unique items as a Pro Merchant Account, but I'm unsure I'd be able to sell enough to make it back. They should do a trail or something...
 

Bigolac

Limp Gawd
Joined
Nov 15, 2011
Messages
269
I recall Paypal telling someone to destroy a $2k watch a while back - it seemed nobody even knew whether or not the watch could be authenticated or not. Shady. There will always be people who want something for nothing, I guess.
 

beowulf7

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jun 30, 2005
Messages
10,433
The piano I practice on at school is 30 years old and worth about 100k. I have violinist friends who have instruments worth 60k+.

$2500 for an old violin is a steal, if it's any good.

Heh, I've got one I'm selling for $12,000 right now. Old does not mean POS in the instrument world, typically quite the opposite.
While I'd never pay that much for something old (be it a car, musical instrument, piece of furniture, whatever), let's say it indeed is an antique instrument that is worth a lot of $. Who'd buy it via Ebay where there's no certification or standard of quality? At least with classic car sales and auctions, there's typically a 3rd party certification for them, I believe.
 

PynkFloydd

Gawd
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
617
I disagree. The value of the violin is based on rarity and exclusivity. Fake handbags flooding the market make the actual designer goods less rare, less exclusive, thus diminishing the value, which is why they are destroyed.

This is very complicated issue in economics, IP law, marketing, etc...

I'm not sure how familiar you are with designer goods, but most designer goods are mass produced. There's no such thing as rarity and exclusivity is only based on price. It's actually gotten so bad in the past few years that when I went to Europe last, I saw a lot of items with only "Designed in Italy" on them. (A separate tag was stamped with the actual country of production.)

I'd argue that fake handbags never enter the same market as the designer goods, so you can't overgeneralize by saying that the knock-offs affect supply or demand. I mean, you can't walk into Macy's and buy a fake Gucci purse (nor can you at the Gucci store). If anything, it'd only affect the used market (flea markets, eBay, etc.) which wouldn't affect the original price of the goods at all since these are "wear & tear" items where condition matters. Designers and retailers don't make any money on the sales of used items.

Using a similar analysis with designer perfume, you can easily identify this same trend. Most countries don't provide any copyright protection for scents. Perfume has long been imitated. If you look at sales numbers and prices, originally branded perfumes have minimal (if any) impact from cheap imitations. ...and again, the counterfeits are rarely sold alongside the genuine high-end products.

Without writing up a 10 page analysis, the reasoning for the minimal impact on price is pretty simple. ...people willing and able to afford the original, new goods will buy the products at retailers guaranteeing authenticity despite price. People buying the knock-offs usually can't afford (or just aren't willing to pay for) the items to begin with.

Two different markets. Two different values. Very little overlap.
 

mustang_steve

c[H]ewbacca
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
Messages
10,758
WoW. This could be interesting. If the seller has a certificate of authenticity, pay pal could be on the hook for $2500 plus court costs.
And felony vandalism charges, interstate wire fraud and a few others. AFAIK there was no legal due process here, thus everything Paypal did was illegitimate.
 

Tailin

Limp Gawd
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
130
Paypal's policy has always been to protect the buyer, not the seller. While they are generally fine for smaller transactions, the lesson here is use an escrow service for anything valuable because people are dishonest and Paypal will never side with the seller in any legal dispute.
 

Orddie

2[H]4U
Joined
Dec 20, 2010
Messages
3,214
Paypal's policy has always been to protect the buyer, not the seller. While they are generally fine for smaller transactions, the lesson here is use an escrow service for anything valuable because people are dishonest and Paypal will never side with the seller in any legal dispute.

I have sold a few things where paypal ruled in my favor. It does happen so never say never.
 

burnin8r

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Nov 19, 2006
Messages
1,211
This is very complicated issue in economics, IP law, marketing, etc...

I'm not sure how familiar you are with designer goods, but most designer goods are mass produced. There's no such thing as rarity and exclusivity is only based on price. It's actually gotten so bad in the past few years that when I went to Europe last, I saw a lot of items with only "Designed in Italy" on them. (A separate tag was stamped with the actual country of production.)

I'd argue that fake handbags never enter the same market as the designer goods, so you can't overgeneralize by saying that the knock-offs affect supply or demand. I mean, you can't walk into Macy's and buy a fake Gucci purse (nor can you at the Gucci store). If anything, it'd only affect the used market (flea markets, eBay, etc.) which wouldn't affect the original price of the goods at all since these are "wear & tear" items where condition matters. Designers and retailers don't make any money on the sales of used items.

Using a similar analysis with designer perfume, you can easily identify this same trend. Most countries don't provide any copyright protection for scents. Perfume has long been imitated. If you look at sales numbers and prices, originally branded perfumes have minimal (if any) impact from cheap imitations. ...and again, the counterfeits are rarely sold alongside the genuine high-end products.

Without writing up a 10 page analysis, the reasoning for the minimal impact on price is pretty simple. ...people willing and able to afford the original, new goods will buy the products at retailers guaranteeing authenticity despite price. People buying the knock-offs usually can't afford (or just aren't willing to pay for) the items to begin with.

Two different markets. Two different values. Very little overlap.

using your example, try returning a counterfeit perfume where the original products are sold and tell me the impact is minimal.
 

wizdum

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
Messages
1,943
I woke up this morning to find out that I apparently used my Paypal account to purchase $100 worth of iTunes gift cards for some unsuspecting craigslist users. Awesome. Guess I get to personally test out Paypal's dispute resolution service.
 

PNut12345

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Dec 27, 2004
Messages
4,371
I woke up this morning to find out that I apparently used my Paypal account to purchase $100 worth of iTunes gift cards for some unsuspecting craigslist users. Awesome. Guess I get to personally test out Paypal's dispute resolution service.

You'll feel like killing yourself by the time you're done.
 

Exavior

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Dec 13, 2005
Messages
9,700
I woke up this morning to find out that I apparently used my Paypal account to purchase $100 worth of iTunes gift cards for some unsuspecting craigslist users. Awesome. Guess I get to personally test out Paypal's dispute resolution service.

You'll feel like killing yourself by the time you're done.

I'll take them with me.

They will probably contact the other person and tell them to kill you to solve the issue of you going after them both for unauthorized use of your account to prove that they are the real one and you are the counterfeit one ;)
 

wizdum

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
Messages
1,943
The iTunes Store must be getting hammered today. Just got the email receipts back confirming my suspicion. My Paypal account and debit card are fine (still canceled the debit card), the purchases were made using an iTunes Store account that I created back in 2003 (when I was issued an iBook for middle school). My paypal account was linked to that account for easier purchasing (I was young and naive).

Paypal is having me go through the "dispute resolution" service. Currently "waiting for the other party to respond". The best part was fighting through the automated phone system for 20 minutes, trying to get the account frozen, while I watched the fraudulent transactions add up. After the 20 minutes with the automated phone system, it got stuck in some kind of loop and kept asking me what I said (without me saying anything) before it finally just went dead.
 

PynkFloydd

Gawd
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
617
using your example, try returning a counterfeit perfume where the original products are sold and tell me the impact is minimal.

You can't. Those are two different products (not even sold in the same store). It'd be the same as putting a rock inside the box and hoping that the cashier doesn't notice. That's just plain old theft.

I worked in retail for a little bit and customers buying a product that they can't afford, using it for a month and then returning it was a much more realistic real world problem. ...that and trading their used (or broken) product for a new one and then returning it.

Also, return policies are subjective. There is absolutely no federal law stating that someone has to accept a return. A return policy doesn't even need to be offered! There is only one case where a return policy is mandated and that's if someone directly solicits you at your house or place of business. In that case, you have 3 days to break the contract.
 

computerpro3

LightningRod
Joined
Mar 29, 2003
Messages
8,705
There's no such thing as rarity and exclusivity is only based on price.

The way you worded it I'm not sure if you meant that there is no such thing as rarity and exclusivity period, or just in the context of "most" goods. Because you're correct that pseudo-designer goods like Gucci and Louis Vuitton are artificially limited, but true exclusive brands do exist. Brands like Hermes and April in Paris operate consistently at capacity and there is still a wait list for their more popular products. While price certainly plays a role in exclusivity, they can only make so many per year since they are entirely done by hand.



I'd argue that fake handbags never enter the same market as the designer goods, so you can't overgeneralize by saying that the knock-offs affect supply or demand. I mean, you can't walk into Macy's and buy a fake Gucci purse (nor can you at the Gucci store).
But you CAN find a purse that has 98% the same pattern that looks identical to anyone that hasn't studied high end purses. Macy's is full of Coach and LV look alikes. These absolutely diminish the brand. I'd never buy a real LV monogram bag for a girl for even $100 because they are so played out due to copycat designs.

You are right that the copycats aren't cannibalizing direct sales of originals, but it is hurting sales from people - like me - who would be in the market for a real one and avoid it due to the popularity of fakes.
 

sleepeeg3

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Mar 4, 2004
Messages
5,213
I stopped selling on eBay after a buyer falsely (and knowingly - he told me) claimed something was broken in order to return it. I have over 10 years of selling and hundreds of trades and they automatically sided with him. eBay is unsafe for sellers.

I try to avoid eBay altogether, but unfortunately, some items can only be found there.
 

sleepeeg3

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Mar 4, 2004
Messages
5,213
P.S. AmazonPayments = free for credit card payments.

It's not perfect, though. If there is ever a dispute, Amazon immediately debits your account, before anything is resolved. Also, I have heard they have started requiring social security numbers to register.
 

PynkFloydd

Gawd
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
617
The way you worded it I'm not sure if you meant that there is no such thing as rarity and exclusivity period, or just in the context of "most" goods. Because you're correct that pseudo-designer goods like Gucci and Louis Vuitton are artificially limited, but true exclusive brands do exist. Brands like Hermes and April in Paris operate consistently at capacity and there is still a wait list for their more popular products. While price certainly plays a role in exclusivity, they can only make so many per year since they are entirely done by hand.

But you CAN find a purse that has 98% the same pattern that looks identical to anyone that hasn't studied high end purses. Macy's is full of Coach and LV look alikes. These absolutely diminish the brand. I'd never buy a real LV monogram bag for a girl for even $100 because they are so played out due to copycat designs.

You are right that the copycats aren't cannibalizing direct sales of originals, but it is hurting sales from people - like me - who would be in the market for a real one and avoid it due to the popularity of fakes.

Good catch! I didn't want to get into that just because most people aren't even familiar with the ultra high-end designers. It blew my mind the first time I saw a short sleeve shirt for over $1k! lol

I think when you start looking at those goods, the value starts getting tricky. It actually starts becoming more like the violin in the article. ...like with some of the shoe makers in the UK which hand make everything by master craftsmen and require a wait list. Value is no longer just based on the design, brand or material. It also starts getting harder to pass off a knock-off as the real thing once you start reaching a certain price point. (Someone who can afford a $10k+ purse doesn't live a "normal" lifestyle.)

There's also the idea of "Veblen Goods" in economics where the demand goes up as price increases. I can definitely accept the arguement that counterfeits devalue a brand because it lessons the representation of it as a status symbol. I actually think that's the primary reason that most major brands give for going after fakes. ...which in this case, Paypal was definitely wrong in their reasoning.

I love discussing this stuff though! I love economics because it's such a dynamic subject.
 

nilepez

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jan 21, 2005
Messages
11,827
The piano I practice on at school is 30 years old and worth about 100k. I have violinist friends who have instruments worth 60k+.

$2500 for an old violin is a steal, if it's any good.

A friend must bought a 120 year old violin for roughly this much money. Good instruments (new and old) are expensive.
 

beowulf7

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jun 30, 2005
Messages
10,433
I just used Ebay and PayPal as a seller for the first time since last summer. I didn't know that PayPal now has an up to 21-day hold on payments received. WTF?! I don't recall that last summer. I guess once the buyer confirms he receives the product as expected, then the funds would be allowed for me to be collected. So PayPal makes interest in the meantime? :mad:
 

burningrave101

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Sep 9, 2003
Messages
11,825
P.S. AmazonPayments = free for credit card payments.

It's not perfect, though. If there is ever a dispute, Amazon immediately debits your account, before anything is resolved. Also, I have heard they have started requiring social security numbers to register.

That's for personal accounts and the limit is $1,000 received per month. An actual Amazon Payments sellers account has a fee for transactions just like PayPal's.
 

kumquatsrus

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Sep 15, 2007
Messages
1,326
I just used Ebay and PayPal as a seller for the first time since last summer. I didn't know that PayPal now has an up to 21-day hold on payments received. WTF?! I don't recall that last summer. I guess once the buyer confirms he receives the product as expected, then the funds would be allowed for me to be collected. So PayPal makes interest in the meantime? :mad:

yep, sold stuff on ebay this past summer too and instant payment availability. sold recently past december and same up to 21 day hold. so dumb.
 

wizdum

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
Messages
1,943
yep, sold stuff on ebay this past summer too and instant payment availability. sold recently past december and same up to 21 day hold. so dumb.

I have never run into this, do your have your bank account and credit card set up as alternative sources of funding?
 

beowulf7

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jun 30, 2005
Messages
10,433
yep, sold stuff on ebay this past summer too and instant payment availability. sold recently past december and same up to 21 day hold. so dumb.
That sucks for you :( but good to know that I'm not the only one. I guess the buyer has to confirm he's received the product in the promised condition to release the funds, to get it quicker than 21 days.

I have never run into this, do your have your bank account and credit card set up as alternative sources of funding?
In my case, I have a verified PayPal account that's tied to a bank account (but not CC). But I have my Ebay account tied to CC and since Ebay owns PayPal, I guess they can charge my CC if they think I owe them $. : \
 

beowulf7

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jun 30, 2005
Messages
10,433
I realize I'm going a little off topic here, but this is a continuation on my comment about PayPal and lack of immediate availability of paid funds. I came across this page on Ebay and it mentions the following.

How can I get my funds quickly?

To access your funds as quickly as 3 days after eBay can confirm delivery, we recommend that you ship within 24 hours after your buyer pays and print your shipping label on eBay. With eBay label printing:

Tracking information is automatically provided to eBay
You get discounted postage rates (the eBay label printing service is FREE)
Funds for shipping will be available to you immediately (up to $15)

What if I don’t use eBay label printing?

If you ship directly using USPS, UPS, or FedEx, you can upload your tracking information manually to My eBay. Your funds will still be available 3 days after eBay receives confirmation of delivery.
Mark the item as shipped in My eBay. Even if you don’t upload tracking, if you mark the item as shipped in My eBay, your funds will be available 7 days after your latest estimated delivery date.
If you don't provide tracking information or mark the item as shipped, or the estimated delivery date can't be calculated, your funds will be available 21 days after your buyer pays.

Other reasons access to funds may be delayed:

Funds could also be delayed if your account does not meet the minimum performance standard required of all eBay sellers, or a higher than normal level of risk is associated with this transaction or with your account—for example a sudden spike in eBay Buyer Protection cases, PayPal disputes or claims, unusual selling activity, items with an exceptionally high selling price, or sales in a new category or a category such as tickets, travel, or gift certificates. Learn more.
Best practices for fast access to funds

Ship quickly
Specify 1-day handling time for the shortest estimated delivery time (a combination of your handling time plus the carrier's published estimated delivery time).
Offer an expedited shipping option (package delivered in 1-3 business days).
Ship within 24 hours after your buyer pays.
Provide tracking
Ship with a carrier that offers package tracking and always upload the tracking information to My eBay.
The easiest way to upload tracking is to buy postage at a discount and print shipping labels on eBay—eBay label printing is a free service. Tracking information is uploaded automatically, funds to cover the cost of shipping (up to $15) will be available immediately, and funds from the buyer will be available 3 days after eBay can confirm the order was delivered.
If you don't use eBay label printing, manually enter your tracking information into My eBay.
If you choose not to use a service with tracking, make sure you mark the item as shipped in My eBay.
Delight your buyer
Respond quickly to resolve any buyer issues.
Focus on providing great service in order to prevent eBay Buyer Protection cases from being opened.
 

kumquatsrus

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Sep 15, 2007
Messages
1,326
I have never run into this, do your have your bank account and credit card set up as alternative sources of funding?

Yup. Nothing's changed except their policies it seems. Been selling stuff on there for years up until now. Not world ending but still irksome for me nonetheless.
 
Top