Paypal’s New Direction: Helpful or Hypeful

CommanderFrank

Cat Can't Scratch It
Joined
May 9, 2000
Messages
75,412
David Marcus, the newly appointed PayPal President has joined in the fray of a very frustrated customer who couldn’t get his $64k released from his account. Marcus personally intervened, had the funds released and asked the man to help him get PayPal back on track.

A representative named Olivia did all she could to help but the day after, McMillan received a phone call from PayPal to say they would not be releasing any funds to him, and that they considered the matter closed.
 

niconx

2[H]4U
Joined
Sep 26, 2004
Messages
2,951
Paypal needs to be under the same rules as banks. They don't have the right to go around stealing people's money and freezing accounts because they have a hunch you might maybe be doing something that isn't even illegal.
 

darkangel74

Limp Gawd
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Apr 8, 2005
Messages
378
Paypal needs to be under the same rules as banks. They don't have the right to go around stealing people's money and freezing accounts because they have a hunch you might maybe be doing something that isn't even illegal.

Amen to that, I had my account frozen for buying a bunch of items on ebay. A bunch as in 30. The people I wanted to buy from never got their money as it sat in PayPal limbo for over 3 weeks.
 

Trimlock

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Sep 23, 2005
Messages
15,228
My account has been under investigation for the past 4 years or somesuch, never got a notification of what they decided to, the person never got their money so I mailed the item back, still can't log into my account and it still has some money on it.

All because I made a purchase in Germany. I even called them and confirmed who I was and they still wouldn't unlock it.
 

teh_chem

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jun 21, 2012
Messages
1,474
I think Paypal's new direction should be into the shitter, and then oblivion.

I hate paypal, but that aside, I feel like in order to function as the financial institution that they are (despite them claiming that they are just a payment intermediary, they hold onto account funds just like any other institution), they should be subject to the financial laws and regulations, and should not be able to be closed about how they handle accounts--locking accounts and funds with zero explanation to the customer, etc.
 

Gorankar

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jul 19, 2000
Messages
10,866
Paypal is why I don't FSFT on the various forums I visit, it's half of the reason I don't use Ebay. Ebay itself is the other half of the reason I don't use Ebay. I have a Pay pal account and it has maybe $20 in it. The only time I have used it in the last 3 or 4 years was for subscription access to GM. I may use it again for something similar, but that is about it.
 

derp

n00b
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May 17, 2012
Messages
51
Paypal is just one step behind BOA, for shittiest banking "service".
 

nutzo

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Feb 15, 2004
Messages
7,380
Hate Paypal, but you are basically forced to use it if you want to sell on ebay.

The wife sold something ( a kids toy) on Ebay a few years ago, accepted payment by Paypal, and a few week later Paypal pulled the money out of her account, saying the item wasn't delivered. She sent in proof (tracking) that it WAS delivered. The person then changed their story that someone had stolen thier account. Who buys a $15 toy (plus $10 shipping) with a stolen ebay account? The account history showed that they had bought other kids toys over the past few months, so this was not an unusual purchase. Plus it was delivered to the correct persons address.
Paypal flat out refused to return the money, despite the proof.

Because I really don't have a choice of not using Paypal with ebay (you lose alot of potential customers if you don't accept paypal), I try to keep as little as possible in the account. I rarely sell anything over $100, so it not too much of a risk.
 

Aluisious

2[H]4U
Joined
Mar 6, 2009
Messages
2,189
Paypal should be shut down, period. They stole hundreds of bucks from me back in the day, when a fraudulent buyer reversed payment on items they received.
 

jtr8178

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Joined
Jun 21, 2008
Messages
266
I don't understand all the hate towards PayPal. I run a home business that does over $500,000 per year, mainly with PayPal. I"ve never had an issue, and I've been doing it for years. Yes, you have to understand and abide by their rules, but you have to with anyone.

I also manage an account at our business that does another $400,000 through PayPal. Again, not one single "major" issue.

Granted, I don't like their fee's very much, but I can say that with every I do business with.
 

c3141hf

2[H]4U
Joined
Aug 22, 2004
Messages
2,708
Paypal needs to be under the same rules as banks. They don't have the right to go around stealing people's money and freezing accounts because they have a hunch you might maybe be doing something that isn't even illegal.

They have every right so long as you agreed to let them do it.

People ought to try reading those contracts before they click "I Agree".
 

nutzo

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Feb 15, 2004
Messages
7,380
well

there is this

Which is why I'd never sell (or buy) anything of real value through ebay.
I usually limit myself to selling stuff worth less than $100 (usually old computer parts).

Was nervous then I sold a $230 camera earlier this year, but luckly everything went ok.
 

FearTheCow

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
May 2, 2006
Messages
5,900
They have every right so long as you agreed to let them do it.

People ought to try reading those contracts before they click "I Agree".

You realize that if you act like a bank, having someone sign something saying you aren't a bank doesn't work right?

Contracts are not 100% binding, especially when they are there to skirt laws.
 

LigTasm

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Jul 29, 2011
Messages
5,163
Hopefully they fix it, I use paypal a LOT, but I had my account locked for almost 2 years because I made a payment from Bahrain when I was deployed. The only solution to not getting it locked was to call from my on-record cell phone within 24 hours... except I was thousands of miles away from the states and there was no way in hell it was happening (mind you, I was told this over the phone in an expensive pay-phone call to paypal support).
 

Phelptwan

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Jul 20, 2002
Messages
6,660
Maybe someday in the future I'll have access to $400 in frozen funds sitting in my paypal account. Until then, they get nothing from me.
 

TechLarry

Can't find the G Spot
Joined
Aug 9, 2005
Messages
30,478
Until Paypal is regulated as a bank, and adjusts it's actions accordingly and has to follow the same laws, I want nothing to do with it.
 

lordshado

Limp Gawd
Joined
Feb 27, 2007
Messages
340
i live in iran i buy all types of nuclear material with pay pal and never had a problem hmmm. we had britain build a super canon parts for us and shipped using pay pal. :cool:
 
Joined
Jan 27, 2011
Messages
605
I don't understand all the hate towards PayPal. I run a home business that does over $500,000 per year, mainly with PayPal. I"ve never had an issue, and I've been doing it for years. Yes, you have to understand and abide by their rules, but you have to with anyone.

I also manage an account at our business that does another $400,000 through PayPal. Again, not one single "major" issue.

Granted, I don't like their fee's very much, but I can say that with every I do business with.

Make close to a million dollars working from home. Models, Cars, Boats! Work part time! Man you got to tell me what business you're in? Sounds even better than this guy http://iblp.org/iblp/discipleship/financialfreedom/
 

Mini-Me

Gawd
Joined
Oct 23, 2004
Messages
567
You realize that if you act like a bank, having someone sign something saying you aren't a bank doesn't work right?

Contracts are not 100% binding, especially when they are there to skirt laws.

Just the other day, I came to the following conclusion about why these "click-through" contracts are totally invalid and legally unenforceable in the general sense:

The truth is, corporations like Paypal only get away with excessive and exploitative terms in their agreements because their lawyers know very well that the customers do NOT read the agreements in the first place, let alone have the capacity to understand them or negotiate them on equal terms with their own lawyers. By extension, this indicates a sneaky and underhanded power play against customers, because their lawyers know they can slip in whatever arbitrarily lopsided terms they want without most customers realizing it. By deliberately taking advantage of customers' casual and trusting attitudes toward consent, corporate lawyers have clearly corrupted these agreements from genuine meetings of the minds into fradulent coups.

This disturbing state of affairs has a serious implication: The lawyers writing these complex and draconian click-through agreements know very well that only other lawyers are likely to fully comprehend them, and so the subsequent exploitative terms are then intentionally predicated on the assumption that the signing party is incapable of informed consent. As a result, it is unreasonable and contradictory for your company to have any good faith expectation of informed consent; in fact, justly applied estoppel would preclude it!

This truth still holds no matter how much the terms of the user agreement obfuscate it by arrogating to speak for the customer and insist the agreement constitutes such informed consent. It may take some time for the courts to finally recognize this truth, but it is indeed the truth, and so it is inevitable it will prevail sooner or later. The farther and faster corporations push these agreements into the realm of one-sided absurdity, the sooner this hammer will be likely to fall, as long as those of us with a degree of sanity push to exert our influence.
 

auspexd

Gawd
Joined
Jan 23, 2002
Messages
806
Paypal is like that creepy uncle that has that cool timeshare he promises you can use... if you just ignore the blow-up sheep in the closet. Sure, it can be useful on rare occasions but ultimately it's more trouble than it's worth in the long term.

I can't understand how people get so much money frozen? Hook up a virtual cc number (amex and discover does this for free) to it, make the transaction quick, pull the money out and then delete the card. Not exactly rocket science.
 

Mini-Me

Gawd
Joined
Oct 23, 2004
Messages
567
People get screwed so badly by hooking their Paypal accounts up to their primary bank accounts out of convenience. Constantly making transfers is a pain in the rear, so people go about things the easy way, usually without ever realizing what they're risking.
 

c3141hf

2[H]4U
Joined
Aug 22, 2004
Messages
2,708
You realize that if you act like a bank, having someone sign something saying you aren't a bank doesn't work right?

Contracts are not 100% binding, especially when they are there to skirt laws.

This is a simple concept.

By signing up for PayPal and clicking the "I Agree" button, you are agreeing to follow the rules that PayPal sets forth. If you don't like them, you don't have to agree to them and you can take your business elsewhere.

Too many people run to the state to resolve things that are easily handled as private individuals.
 

Jagger100

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Oct 31, 2004
Messages
7,688
Didn't realize a lot of people use Paypal as anything but a proxy for credit cards.
 

c3141hf

2[H]4U
Joined
Aug 22, 2004
Messages
2,708
Just the other day, I came to the following conclusion about why these "click-through" contracts are totally invalid and legally unenforceable in the general sense:

The truth is, corporations like Paypal only get away with excessive and exploitative terms in their agreements because their lawyers know very well that the customers do NOT read the agreements in the first place, let alone have the capacity to understand them or negotiate them on equal terms with their own lawyers. By extension, this indicates a sneaky and underhanded power play against customers, because their lawyers know they can slip in whatever arbitrarily lopsided terms they want without most customers realizing it. By deliberately taking advantage of customers' casual and trusting attitudes toward consent, corporate lawyers have clearly corrupted these agreements from genuine meetings of the minds into fradulent coups.

This disturbing state of affairs has a serious implication: The lawyers writing these complex and draconian click-through agreements know very well that only other lawyers are likely to fully comprehend them, and so the subsequent exploitative terms are then intentionally predicated on the assumption that the signing party is incapable of informed consent. As a result, it is unreasonable and contradictory for your company to have any good faith expectation of informed consent; in fact, justly applied estoppel would preclude it!

This truth still holds no matter how much the terms of the user agreement obfuscate it by arrogating to speak for the customer and insist the agreement constitutes such informed consent. It may take some time for the courts to finally recognize this truth, but it is indeed the truth, and so it is inevitable it will prevail sooner or later. The farther and faster corporations push these agreements into the realm of one-sided absurdity, the sooner this hammer will be likely to fall, as long as those of us with a degree of sanity push to exert our influence.

I suggest you try that sometime in court and tell me how it goes. You will learn very quickly that the government and its courts do not serve its hapless subjects so much as they serve the highest bidder.

That being said, if you don't like the way a contract is worded, or, you don't understand it, you don't have to agree to it. I found the PayPal User Agreement perfectly understandable.
 

Mini-Me

Gawd
Joined
Oct 23, 2004
Messages
567
I suggest you try that sometime in court and tell me how it goes. You will learn very quickly that the government and its courts do not serve its hapless subjects so much as they serve the highest bidder.
Oh, believe me, I know it, and it's an uphill battle, but that doesn't make the estoppel argument incorrect, either.

That being said, if you don't like the way a contract is worded, or, you don't understand it, you don't have to agree to it. I found the PayPal User Agreement perfectly understandable.

Give or take, you probably did, although unless you're a lawyer, there are most likely a number of phrases in it that mean something beyond what you expect. Legal jargon is very tricky, because it's based on a huge amount of law that most people are not aware of. Either way, I think it's safe to assume you're smarter than the average person, so it doesn't really have much bearing on the total incomprehension corporate lawyers expect out of other people (most people).
 

vortican

Limp Gawd
Joined
May 11, 2005
Messages
146
Glad damicatz made the point so I didn't have to. Asking for Gaypal to be treated like a bank is only validating their unethical practices by codifying them into law and handing them even more power through their connections with those "regulators." Just like the banks, they'll have Congress doing their bidding then as well.

I figure if there's a large number of undecipherable contracts which people are finding they need to agree to before using a large number of services, then perhaps personal legal consultants are something people should get used to fitting into their budgets. Then again, the solution could be as simple as "use something else." Fleabay and Gaypal aren't the only auction house and payment service out there. As long as we have options (which disappear when the state gets involved), we're OK.
 

Thuleman

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Joined
Apr 13, 2004
Messages
5,833
Paypal is just one step behind BOA, for shittiest banking "service".
Actually BOA has some of the best service there is if you can deal with online/mobile banking. There isn't another bank out there that provides as much online and mobile service as BOA. Don't blame the company at large if you had an issue with one of their employees.

As far as Paypal goes, it's like Big Oil, you may not like it but you still have to put gas into your car. Not participating in Ebay is great if you like the spend more for the stuff you buy. I'd rather buy stuff on Ebay and save money than be on some pointless crusade against Paypal.
 

SunnyD

2[H]4U
Joined
Jul 6, 2004
Messages
3,173
Well for the small fry like us, you have paypal which gives us a modicum, or at least some semblance of customer support and protection, but regarded as a haven for the buyer-scammer. Then you have Amazon Payments, which is a pure haven for the seller-scammer. Basically, pick your poison.
 

Thuleman

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Messages
5,833
Well for the small fry like us, you have paypal which gives us a modicum, or at least some semblance of customer support and protection, but regarded as a haven for the buyer-scammer.
I don't believe this to be true at all. I have held Ebay Powerseller status for months last year and never had any issues as seller. If you, as seller, practice due diligence then there's no problem at all.

Document your sales. I take pictures of everything, which I do to list items in the first place, so I have detailed pics of the item condition prior to shipping. I ship well packaged with tracking/confirmation. I also offer returns and of thousands of items sold I get maybe a couple returns here and there. Mind you, I am just a guy and this isn't a business, it's just something I do on the side as I have time.
 

Ur_Mom

Fully [H]
Joined
May 15, 2006
Messages
20,566
Amen to that, I had my account frozen for buying a bunch of items on ebay. A bunch as in 30. The people I wanted to buy from never got their money as it sat in PayPal limbo for over 3 weeks.

Yea, that really blows. I emailed the sellers and they said it happens fairly often (PayPal problems). It really sucks. I bought some cool stuff at really good prices, but PayPal froze my account due to suspicion of fraudulent activity... I lost out on those items, but I'm sure the seller got more $$ in the next auction. Still, horrible that PayPal does shitty stuff like that, and that it's so common.
 
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