Parliament Voted To Grant Asylum To Edward Snowden

potency

Gawd
Joined
Dec 1, 2010
Messages
848
He got people's attention, all that mattered.


So your attention (and absolutely nothing else gained by your own admission) is worth American lives? Nice.




Way to not be better than your piers and belittle yourself in the process. Now you can't be taken seriously. Also, the only reason any of that is relevant is because of militaries in general. More than one side to that coin, and it's a long drawn debate that has no winning scenario of pacifist vs militant vanguard.

*peers (pet peeve, don't get your panties in a bunch)

Funny, you put a good amount of thought into a response to someone that you claim you can't take seriously. You can talk hypotheticals, philosophies, etc. all you want, but what you can't say is that what I said isn't a fact. Debates aren't real, war is. I'd love to see the day where people stop killing people, but we've got many millennia of spiritual evolution before that's even remotely a possibility, and I'm sure we'll fuck ourselves into extinction well before that.

I don't even know what you were trying to say by me not being better than my peers or belittling myself.


Ignorance doesn't amount to willful uncaring, might want to ponder the differences.

Ignorance? I was clearly talking about apathy, and if you missed it then maybe you should ponder the words you read a little longer before firing off knee-jerk responses.
 

Vercinaigh

Gawd
Joined
Jul 31, 2008
Messages
849
So your attention (and absolutely nothing else gained by your own admission) is worth American lives? Nice.






*peers (pet peeve, don't get your panties in a bunch)

Funny, you put a good amount of thought into a response to someone that you claim you can't take seriously. You can talk hypotheticals, philosophies, etc. all you want, but what you can't say is that what I said isn't a fact. Debates aren't real, war is. I'd love to see the day where people stop killing people, but we've got many millennia of spiritual evolution before that's even remotely a possibility, and I'm sure we'll fuck ourselves into extinction well before that.

I don't even know what you were trying to say by me not being better than my peers or belittling myself.




Ignorance? I was clearly talking about apathy, and if you missed it then maybe you should ponder the words you read a little longer before firing off knee-jerk responses.

lol...yeah nvm not worth further effort, in fact, regret putting the effort in the first place, wasting my time ;) Back to lurking and eating popcorn.
 

potency

Gawd
Joined
Dec 1, 2010
Messages
848
lol...yeah nvm not worth further effort, in fact, regret putting the effort in the first place, wasting my time ;) Back to lurking and eating popcorn.

Taking your ball and going home 'cause you got called on your bullshit. I'm guessing you're in your teens or 20's by your grammar and smileys. It's OK, everyone thinks they know something in that age bracket, just because they've learned how to express opinions. You'll grow out of it.



Which Americans have died as a result of Snowden's leaks?

If any have, it'd probably be covert agents that we wouldn't hear about in the news, but the British confirmed that they had to call agents back. The thing is, he didn't take the time to make sure that people wouldn't be killed as a direct result of the info he leaked, and I'm not convinced it even occurred to him.
 

coreyb3

n00b
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Messages
36
You see traitor, many see patriot. He's a whistleblower for the American people against an out-of-control domestic surveillance program. By definition of the word, all whistleblowers are traitors. But there's a very specific reason why they're given special protection when they do so without personal gain but for a greater good.

Sure, he is given protection for whistleblowing on that one program (the one that everyone hears about), but not for the other stuff he released. The stuff that they want to go to trial for, and not a public trial, because of the nature of the info.
 

charold

Limp Gawd
Joined
Sep 7, 2011
Messages
314
What exactly has he done? What exactly is different? Do you really believe anything has changed? What he has done is endanger the lives of many fellow Americans abroad, individual Americans that risk far more than he ever has or will. What Snowden did was irresponsible, and though he'll never admit it, he definitely knows it.

It's pretty clear you are concerned for your fellow citizens abroad in regards to what these "revelations" brought about, which is more than I can see it seems like from many people on topics like this. But, could it be possible, that the US government should be, at least partially, to blame for putting these people in harms way in the first place? What exactly are the agendas to be over there in the first place? Are they moral, just, right? I for sure don't claim to know, but I'm sure many of those programs overseas aren't for the benefit of average Americans.
 

Skripka

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Feb 5, 2012
Messages
10,792
Sure, he is given protection for whistleblowing on that one program (the one that everyone hears about), but not for the other stuff he released. The stuff that they want to go to trial for, and not a public trial, because of the nature of the info.

No he doesn't.

Edward does not qualify for whistle-blower status in any way:

-First rule of whistle-blowing, the person must expose criminal activity or wrongdoing. The Orwellian and somewhat terrifying thing about all this stuff is that it is 100% "legal" and authorized per FISA and Congress.


Right there. Snowden is done for insofar as whistle-blower protections goes.
 

M76

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jun 12, 2012
Messages
11,477
Everyone just speaks of American lives, and American freedom, and American people. What about everyone else? Nationalism is so appaling. No people should be raised above anyone else. Everything should be done to benefit all the people not just the people of one nation.
 

charold

Limp Gawd
Joined
Sep 7, 2011
Messages
314
Everyone just speaks of American lives, and American freedom, and American people. What about everyone else? Nationalism is so appaling. No people should be raised above anyone else. Everything should be done to benefit all the people not just the people of one nation.

If this were social media of some sort, there'd be an upvote for ya
 

lcpiper

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jul 16, 2008
Messages
10,611
I'm pretty sure his ass is on the line right now.

And the Obama administration has been very harsh on government whistleblowers, all while encouraging private sector whistleblowers; not a supportive environment to be in.

Further, with the constant over-classification of information, informing the American people of a significant amount of the workings of the US government is now illegal under the espionage act.

How is Snowden's ass on the line?Are you really trying to compair Snowden with William Binney when it comes to standing up for what you believe in?

You mention over-classification, can you tell me what is the primary determining factor when it comes to how material is classified? Just a simple basic idea of what determines how something should be classified.

Whatever it is you are reading that makes this claim I bet they don't know the first thing about it.
 

lcpiper

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jul 16, 2008
Messages
10,611
Regular citizens can still leave the country. Just an FYI. I also know a thing or two. One being our own government overreaches every single day on its intended purpose and its excuses for doing so overused.

It might surprise you, but I actually agree with this very much.
 

lcpiper

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jul 16, 2008
Messages
10,611
They also failed in getting the peoples attention that way which is precisely why Edward Snowden didn't do it that way. You always seem to miss that part though.

You can't claim this, it's completely not true. The only thing they failed at was convincing the people that matter that the NSA was doing anything illegal and that's because the NSA's ass was covered by both a Presidential Letter authorizing the program and Congess passing legislation further supporting it.

It happens all the time in the regular world, something get's the idea that their employer is treating them unfairly and they go to the State Labor board or some other political body and blow the whistle just be told that they are wrong and their employer isn't breaking the law.

The very fact that Snowden did the things he did points to you being incorrect, Snowden was "the American People" just like the all of these are;
https://it.ojp.gov/PrivacyLiberty/organizations/pcl-organizations

Binneys actions brought about several challenges in court and in Congress, they just weren't successful, you know, like they still haven't stopped this program.
 

lcpiper

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jul 16, 2008
Messages
10,611
Everyone just speaks of American lives, and American freedom, and American people. What about everyone else? Nationalism is so appaling. No people should be raised above anyone else. Everything should be done to benefit all the people not just the people of one nation.

Well, I do support the sentiment but it's not that way is it?

I mean, as great as it sounds, it's just not the way the world is is it?

This is a righteous goal, but until we reach it you still have to live in the world we have, not the one we want to live in.

If you can't temper your ideals with reality then things aren't going to work out for you.

No one should be stealing your property, people shouldn't take what doesn't belong to them. But is it prudent to leave your doors unlocked at home or your car at the mall?
 

lcpiper

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jul 16, 2008
Messages
10,611
It's pretty clear you are concerned for your fellow citizens abroad in regards to what these "revelations" brought about, which is more than I can see it seems like from many people on topics like this. But, could it be possible, that the US government should be, at least partially, to blame for putting these people in harms way in the first place? What exactly are the agendas to be over there in the first place? Are they moral, just, right? I for sure don't claim to know, but I'm sure many of those programs overseas aren't for the benefit of average Americans.

Don't get too wrapped up about the morality of it.

We are mostly dealing with electronic spying here, the NSA. But the CIA and others have actual spies out there but it's nothing like Hollywood. The average spy is a guy or girl who goes to a foreign country under a cover, a false identity and purpose. Their job is to protect their cover so they don't get outed, and meet people and solicite information from them. Some people have egos and like to talk about what they do, for these you just have to become friends and they'll tell you things all the time. Others are having problems with their government and are disgruntled, they will volunteer information as well. It's as simple is identifying people who might know what you want to learn and getting them to tell you about it.

The other issue is that it's not always big military secrets that we want to know. It's also many mundane things. How good was the rice harvest this year? Oh, the FireStation got a new FireEngine?

Our Country is no different then most of the rest of the world, we do business together, trade. Trade is the single biggest factor involving foreign nations that we care about, it has the greatest impact on your own country. All of those bland statistics you can look up about another country, it's economy, imports, exports, and just how well they are doing overall, education, medical, all o fit. It's part of the picture we have of everyone else.

All of it is spy material and sometimes other countries give it pretty easily, others protect it all best they can. It's just not all as glamorous as one might think. Still, no one likes to be spied on, even when they themselves spy on others. If a spy is caught usually they are just escorted out of the country, sometimes it doesn't end that well.

History will tell us what the upshot of Snowden's treason will be. Holiwood and the media will paint him as a patriot and a hero because that's just what they do. But if you pay attention to what is happening in the world, keep an objective view of just where the US sits relative to her strongest competitors like China and Russia, and if you watch who growing in economic power vs who is not. You might get a feel for what Snowden truely accomplished for us.
 

xJ321x

Limp Gawd
Joined
Sep 26, 2014
Messages
396
What exactly has he done?

Gave away his freedom in the states and future for the potential betterment of humanity. Something you'll never do pecking away at your keyboard kids made.

What exactly is different?
For one we're having this conversation right now, for two, others all over the world/country are as well. People are actually discussing a serious issue, that looks like something changed to me.

Do you really believe anything has changed?
You'd have to be living under a rock to not think anything has changed. If nothing changed why was the government so mad? The whole tone has changed. There are open debates about something there were no debates about before. Obama will be speaking about encryption and cyber security (rights) soon because people are talking about it so much (The lies they'll be). There were reforms made because of it (little they did). Still, cats out of the bag. Cats don't belong in bags in the first place.

What he has done is endanger the lives of many fellow Americans abroad, individual Americans that risk far more than he ever has or will. What Snowden did was irresponsible, and though he'll never admit it, he definitely knows it.
Warring with everyone the US disagrees with (That doesn't have a nuke) puts more people endanger abroad and here than Snowden ever will. Bombing women and kids with drone strikes and blowing up hospitals isn't how you make friends in a global society. The US government needs no help from Snowden in making future enemies for this country. Lets be adults here. What the US government and governments all around the world do is irresponsible, and though they'll never admit it, they definitely know it.

These threads always attract the craziest [H] users. I mean the ones that pop nerd-boners every time they hear the name Snowden,
Most of the people here that are glad Snowden did what he did don't care about him (personally = no boners), they care about the information he gave. It's only your side that likes to kill the messenger and ignore the message. You showed that in this very post...

or the American-educated middle-class hypocrites with their Che Guevara posters.
Whatever this shit is.

Talk shit about our soldiers all you want, but our military is the ONLY reason you have the freedom to peck away at that keyboard that was manufactured by some poverty stricken child half way around the globe.
1. I don't think anyone here even said we don't need military protection (especially after all the trouble our government gets us into abroad). That said it doesn't mean a lot of the stupid soldiers didn't drink a little too much .gov issued kool-aid (the smart ones knew when to stop).In their (basic programming) minds the US government can do wrong. While a lot of these wars these days are clearly not moral, period. They're just governments antagonizing other governments for reasons we're never told (because we'd be against them). Like the proxy war between Russia and the US right now. Who loses there? Yes, the regular folks. Those people living there matter too mother******! We aren't worth more because our military is the best. Bringing constant war to other parts of the world might be good for the military industrial complex or for parts of our economy but all in all it's absolutely shitty human behavior (to which banks profit off of it and it's legal?). September 11th was no excuse to murder hundreds of thousands of innocent people in Iraq which had no part in the attack (Entirely wrong country attacked, too, derp. I'm sure it was by accident:rolleyes:). The US government is clearly the worlds biggest bully when we should use our strength and protection to be the worlds biggest and most peaceful leader. Greed overrides it though. It's always to get more and more, and more. It's never ending with these psychopaths until the whole world goes up in smoke.

2. Do you not have a keyboard? Isn't the Chinese government and other governments around the world that are allowing kids to make keyboards part of the problem? It's weird how that works when you think about it. Governments do nothing but use and abuse their people to the extent that the people allow it. Go figure! Kind of why Snowdens information was so vital. It let us know our own government thinks we're literally their property to collect intel from 24-7-365. The government demands absolute secrecy but no one else can or - potential terrorist. Funny how that works. You want to know how to lessen terrorism around the world (make our people safer)? How about stop being the main f**king participant in it. :rolleyes: However it's clear governments need/make/want more and more conflicts to have more and more reasons to pass unmoral laws and have new destinations to drop bombs on.

Meanwhile a lot of manufacturing jobs are being replaced with low paying (temp?) service jobs, infrastructure is eroding (5+ bridges in Syracuse alone get rated as deficient), and the educational system rots away. Then Americans get called dumb (especially on this forum) when teachers are underpaid and still have to provide supplies to kids in class out of pocket which I've seen in IRL and on the news a hundred times. If that's not a system out of hand to you, you're nuts.

Point: There's always money for unnecessary warring but never money for the people of the country, the ones paying the taxes.

The average American doesn't really give two shits about gov't surveillance.
The average American hasn't even been given enough honest and accurate information on any important topics to have formed any reasonable opinion at all. The government didn't even ask for permission from the people, they just did it under a secret court, then got found out. People tend to hate liars more than thieves. The government is both, Snowden was just a thief. Good one I might add.

The media is the one making the biggest deal out of this.
Isn't that their job? Like for real? Most of the time the news is talking about the stupidest shit in the world and not actual (vital) news.

Since at least the 20th century, the average American just wants to enjoy all the benefits of being an average American, and doesn't really give a shit about anything until it directly affects or threatens their way of life.
The Americans peoples opinions are never taken into consideration on important topics (See: TTIP). I'm also positive if you asked 'the average American' if they want the US GOV to stop doing all the corrupt shit they currently do almost everyone would say "Of course I do". The problem is no one really cares what we think and our only options for electing people to represent us are liar number one or liar number two (both sponsored by the rich).

If they did, politicians flat out lying to the people would've became illegal a long time ago. I can't sell you a bad car without getting into legal trouble but your government can sell you on a war with nothing but lies and still with no consequences.

If voters cared, Congress wouldn't have renewed the Patriot Act
If congress cared what the voters thought then you'd have a point, but you don't. People are too busy making ends meet to listen to people that only ever lie to them (legally), but they still know enough to know the systems fucked.

You - "They still reelect them though!"

Me - How can you tell who's lying and about what, today?


 

xJ321x

Limp Gawd
Joined
Sep 26, 2014
Messages
396
The thing is, he didn't take the time to make sure that people wouldn't be killed as a direct result of the info he leaked, and I'm not convinced it even occurred to him.

This is so misinformed it's not funny. He didn't even release anything to the public, for one. For two, only pertinent information was released by the press and in a manner allowing any necessary time for the harm it may have caused. The only other option was to never release anything at all and that was never going to happen.

The New York Times' James Risen reported that Snowden's decision to leak NSA documents "developed gradually, dating back at least to his time working as a technician in the Geneva station of the CIA.

Bill O'Reilly fan?
 

Skripka

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Feb 5, 2012
Messages
10,792
You can't claim this, it's completely not true. The only thing they failed at was convincing the people that matter that the NSA was doing anything illegal and that's because the NSA's ass was covered by both a Presidential Letter authorizing the program and Congess passing legislation further supporting it.

It happens all the time in the regular world, something get's the idea that their employer is treating them unfairly and they go to the State Labor board or some other political body and blow the whistle just be told that they are wrong and their employer isn't breaking the law.

The very fact that Snowden did the things he did points to you being incorrect, Snowden was "the American People" just like the all of these are;
https://it.ojp.gov/PrivacyLiberty/organizations/pcl-organizations

Binneys actions brought about several challenges in court and in Congress, they just weren't successful, you know, like they still haven't stopped this program.

You clearly don't have a flying f*ck of a clue what a whistleblower is. Just stop talking. Seriously, start reading wikipedia entries...because everything you post on the topic is 100% incorrect.
 

VonGriffin

Limp Gawd
Joined
Oct 15, 2013
Messages
305
First of all this isn't a law but advice, EU parliament has no right to grant anything, EU members have their own foreign policy
and most have extradition agreements with the US

Secondly, Snowden broke the law and stole government property no matter how much he feels justified doing so

Alas its ironic he praises Russia of all countries for the shelter
 

xJ321x

Limp Gawd
Joined
Sep 26, 2014
Messages
396
You can't claim this, it's completely not true. The only thing they failed at was convincing the people that matter that the NSA was doing anything illegal and that's because the NSA's ass was covered by both a Presidential Letter authorizing the program and Congess passing legislation further supporting it.

You're delusional, period. 'Most people' never heard of William Binney today let alone back then. Snowden is a household name now. He got the massage over the wall the government created to hide it. Binney had to go through it and his absolute failure shows. There's a clear difference even if you don't see it.

It happens all the time in the regular world, something get's the idea that their employer is treating them unfairly and they go to the State Labor board or some other political body and blow the whistle just be told that they are wrong and their employer isn't breaking the law.
So your entire point is lawmakers make unmoral laws to protect their corrupt actions. Thanks, so informative. Do not forget that everything Hitler did during World War II was above their laws (made a legal by him).

Binneys actions brought about several challenges in court and in Congress, they just weren't successful, you know, like they still haven't stopped this program.
Which is literally the problem here everyone has except you. Lawmakers corrupted the system to their benefit. Laws != Moral.

“One has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws.”

“It is not always the same thing to be a good man and a good citizen.”
 

xJ321x

Limp Gawd
Joined
Sep 26, 2014
Messages
396
Well, I do support the sentiment but it's not that way is it? I mean, as great as it sounds, it's just not the way the world is is it? This is a righteous goal, but until we reach it you still have to live in the world we have, not the one we want to live in.

If you can't temper your ideals with reality then things aren't going to work out for you.

You're a part of the problem why we keep nationalism in the forefront, don't pretend to be a part of the solution. You clearly think the US are always the 'good guys' and everyone else we're fighting must be the 'bad guys'. Like it's that simple in real life.

No one should be stealing your property, people shouldn't take what doesn't belong to them.
Hawaii would like their land back from control by the US.
 

xJ321x

Limp Gawd
Joined
Sep 26, 2014
Messages
396
Don't get too wrapped up about the morality of it.

This about sums you up. Who cares about morality, we have so many fast food choices and great TV shows in America. However distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior is the most important thing everyone should be thinking about.

Going to war to take other peoples natural resources = evil.
Going to war to prevent genocide = good.

You follow? Because there's a tiny difference. :rolleyes:
 

TwistedAegis

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Oct 7, 2009
Messages
8,958
How is Snowden's ass on the line?Are you really trying to compair Snowden with William Binney when it comes to standing up for what you believe in?

You mention over-classification, can you tell me what is the primary determining factor when it comes to how material is classified? Just a simple basic idea of what determines how something should be classified.

Whatever it is you are reading that makes this claim I bet they don't know the first thing about it.

Uh, he's living in Russia, likely in fear every day, and has destroyed his future most likely.

As for over-classification, the 9/11 commission found that the overclassification of information was seen as contributing to the problem of the failure to share information. Further, outside of a the specific rating of "classified" there are over 50 other classifications that can be used on a discretionary basis to block the release of unclassified information, and are obviously used often.

Further, as this information is in itself blocked from public view, we can't even fully oversee the ways the government can protect data from being released, much less see the damn underlying data!
 

xJ321x

Limp Gawd
Joined
Sep 26, 2014
Messages
396
Secondly, Snowden broke the law and stole government property no matter how much he feels justified doing so

So did the founding fathers while creating this country and the black people enslaved here to gain their freedom. Just an FYI. Governments usually put laws in place protecting their corrupt actions from 'we the people' so that people have to 'break the law' just to show us how wrong the law was to begin with.

Alas its ironic he praises Russia of all countries for the shelter
Where or when did he praise them? I thought he got stuck there (it wasn't where he wanted to end up. FYI).
 

ruffbytes

Limp Gawd
Joined
Oct 22, 2015
Messages
447
Y'all arguing over this are wasting your time. I don't think you can change people's mind about it.

The US Gov is doing what they do and Snowden is doing what he does. Both US Gov and Snowden + supporters have morality on their side - they both think they are saving the country / world, but they are going about it in two different ways.

I will say, I wouldn't have done what Snowden did and if I were to do what he did, I would have done it different, BUT it's nice to see people who hold to their convictions and do things - especially younger folks. Hopefully Snowden doesn't have any regrets about it.
 

lcpiper

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jul 16, 2008
Messages
10,611
This is so misinformed it's not funny. He didn't even release anything to the public, for one. For two, only pertinent information was released by the press and in a manner allowing any necessary time for the harm it may have caused. The only other option was to never release anything at all and that was never going to happen.



Bill O'Reilly fan?

NO !, this is definite bullshit.

First, You can't give information to a reporter and not be guilty of it's release. Even more so when you stole it while violating oaths and the law of which he was completely and fully informed.

Second, much more information was released that had NOTHING to do with the privacy rights of US Citizens. Instead it was operational and technical information of techniques, procedures, and training specifically related to how the NSA conducts operations against foreign intelligence targets released under the guise that it had some relevancy when it had none.
 

lcpiper

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jul 16, 2008
Messages
10,611
So did the founding fathers while creating this country and the black people enslaved here to gain their freedom. Just an FYI. Governments usually put laws in place protecting their corrupt actions from 'we the people' so that people have to 'break the law' just to show us how wrong the law was to begin with.

Where or when did he praise them? I thought he got stuck there (it wasn't where he wanted to end up. FYI).

Because it looked so much better then staying in Communist China? Right after the Russians come to visit him in Hong Kong he flies to Russia and you see this as his getting "stuck there"? The Russians left him stuck there with nowhere else to go and the FBI just waiting for him to try. Come on, you don't think the Russians got every byte of that data directly from Ed's own hand?
 

xJ321x

Limp Gawd
Joined
Sep 26, 2014
Messages
396
First, You can't give information to a reporter and not be guilty of it's release.

I think my point was that it vetted by journalists (Not Snowden = third party). Also the last time I checked just because someone gives you something to run doesn't mean you have to run it. They ran it because it was right to. Nothing else to see here.

Even more so when you stole it while violating oaths and the law of which he was completely and fully informed.
The rich and/or corrupt make (lobby for) the laws protecting them from wrongdoing. An unjust law = unjust, period. The most high in the US violate these very same oaths and laws on a daily basis.

Second, much more information was released that had NOTHING to do with the privacy rights of US Citizens. Instead it was operational and technical information of techniques, procedures, and training specifically related to how the NSA conducts operations against foreign intelligence targets released under the guise that it had some relevancy when it had none.
If you're right, I 100% agree. Glenn Greenwald shouldn't have done this (Since Ed Snowden dumped that data to him as his life was in danger (in his mind)). Can you verify this with no opinion and only facts?

Don't get your hopes up though, I think you're off your rocker every other time but doing that specific thing is well beyond what was necessary or reasonable and did put good peoples lives in danger (and I don't mean the peoples lives high up at the top - I mean our genuinely hard working defenders of this nations lives).
 

xJ321x

Limp Gawd
Joined
Sep 26, 2014
Messages
396
Because it looked so much better then staying in Communist China? Right after the Russians come to visit him in Hong Kong he flies to Russia and you see this as his getting "stuck there"? The Russians left him stuck there with nowhere else to go and the FBI just waiting for him to try. Come on, you don't think the Russians got every byte of that data directly from Ed's own hand?

Yes, he's surely stuck there if he's willing to leave there and do time here in the US (given a fair trial = the best means of separating the guilty from the innocent and protecting against injustice. Without this right, the rule of law and public faith in the justice system collapse.) just to leave there..lol. Russia was 100% not his desired destination. That has been well established.



Note: I like how you use words like communist while at the same time denying what the US really is, in function.
 
Top