Paramount Says The Klingon Language Protected By Copyright

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Boy, this is a tough one. On one hand, this is a totally made up language, so you'd think the inventor has copyright. On the other hand, this is a totally made up language, so it can't be copyrighted. Who knew there would ever come a day when this was a real issue?

The studio says that the filmmakers’ use of the Klingon language in their movie, which has raised hundreds of thousands of dollars from supporters, is “simply further evidence of their infringement of Plaintiffs’ characters, since speaking this fictitious language is an aspect of their characters.” So who is in the right on this one? As we noted above, the U.S. Copyright Office hasn’t specifically addressed the issue, and there doesn’t seem to be much in the way of case law with regard to the exact topic of copyrighting a fictional language.
 
The MPAA hates it when "people" like "fans" and "audience members" "steal" from them.

Legally, I have no idea. Ethically? Any time the MPAA loses, it puts a smile on my face that much I know for certain.
 
Dirty, dirty fans and customers!

Not sure why a language couldn't be copyrighted though.
 
Dirty, dirty fans and customers!

Not sure why a language couldn't be copyrighted though.

Well, in the first cast the copyright office doesn't list it as such. And in the second cased...while theoretically not a bad idea....the practical result would be the linguistic equivalent of suing and countersuing over round-corners. Does Oxford English Dictionary own the copyright on English?

And let's be honest....this isn't about making sure someone gets their due who invented something. This is about stifling competition.
 
whats up with all this BS around StarTrek first that shity lawsuit over a fan film and now this
 
Wait a second. The original Klingon language originated from Star Trek but that was just few made up words in a row. The actual language developed from that, spelling and all, was made by Trekkie fans am I right? Paramount has no copyright over that, its essentially a fan creation which then got adopted to official lore. Very different matter from, say, elvish where Tolkien himself made the language, alphabets, spelling and so on from ground up.
 
Well, in the first cast the copyright office doesn't list it as such. And in the second cased...while theoretically not a bad idea....the practical result would be the linguistic equivalent of suing and countersuing over round-corners. Does Oxford English Dictionary own the copyright on English?

And let's be honest....this isn't about making sure someone gets their due who invented something. This is about stifling competition.

I don't disagree, but English was not "invented" by a for profit corporation operating within a copyrighted global marketplace. Doesn't mean it makes sense, but that is the system within which corporations operate.

I do not think it is a sustainable system either, but we are stuck in it. Just look at what is happening with genetics, or AI where corporations are literally decimating universities of thier talent with the lure of money. Instead of this research being accessible to all, it is under NDA and more copyrights.
 
If you can converse in it is it actually a "fictional" language?

Certainly works you can create using it are copyrightable but I don't think the language itself should be.
 
Wait a second. The original Klingon language originated from Star Trek but that was just few made up words in a row. The actual language developed from that, spelling and all, was made by Trekkie fans am I right? Paramount has no copyright over that, its essentially a fan creation which then got adopted to official lore. Very different matter from, say, elvish where Tolkien himself made the language, alphabets, spelling and so on from ground up.

Exactly. They should not be able to copyright it beyond the bits they first came up with.
 
Personally I think the worst that can happen is that paramount can claim copyright to the name "Klingon" but they cannot copyright the actual language that is being used as they did NOT create it, the fans did. Which then leads to an interesting turn of events, I do think you can actually copyright a language, IIRC there is a guy that does that who made up the languages for Game of Thrones and other series. So if paramount didn't make up the Klingon language in it's entirety but is using a fan made creation I think they should be sued for copyright infringement. The "fan" language was created by the fans so the fans own the copyright, they might not own the copyright to the name Klingon and so that may have to change, but if paramount used the fan language as their official "Klingon" language for their copyrighted properties without permission, then they are the ones doing the infringement. They can't IMO claim copyright for the Klingon language if all they made up was a few phrases for a show episode when the fans actually made the whole language and associated vocabulary and grammatical structure.
 
Paramount Pictures hired linguist Marc Okrand to develop the full language for the movies. There are videos where he talks about how he muted scenes and created new phonetics to the movement of the actors lips since their dialog was originally filmed in English for the Star Trek movies.
 
One of the arguments Paramount makes is this:
This week, Paramount fired back, arguing in its response [PDF] that the filmmakers’ claim is this argument is “absurd, since a language is only useful if it can be used to communicate with people, and there are no Klingons with whom to communicate.”

Yet on the Startrek.com website is this:
The reply from the liberal Welsh government was as follows: "jang vIDa je due luq. ach ghotvam'e' QI'yaH devolve qaS." Translated from Klingon, it means "The minister will reply in due course. However this is a non-devolved matter."
Link to complete article: Welsh Government Replies in Klingon

Seems like Earth governments are using Klingon to communicate with their citizens, therefore it is a useful language and this fact is known to Paramount.

Qapla to the KS film makers.
 
Wait a second. The original Klingon language originated from Star Trek but that was just few made up words in a row. The actual language developed from that, spelling and all, was made by Trekkie fans am I right? Paramount has no copyright over that, its essentially a fan creation which then got adopted to official lore. Very different matter from, say, elvish where Tolkien himself made the language, alphabets, spelling and so on from ground up.

It was developed by James Dohann for the Star Trek Movies. That's right, "Scotty" was the procreator of the language. It was then later put to book print in a dictionary that was sold without a lawsuit by a 3rd party. The dictionary was then published online without any lawsuits either. This is essence makes it public domain for use. It's a weak leg to stand on.
 
Damn. Paramount are being dicks lately. Unless the Klingon language is required to be litigated to protect their whole IP, which IANAL so I have no idea, then this is just a BS lawsuit that will piss off a lot of fans.
 
It was developed by James Dohann for the Star Trek Movies. That's right, "Scotty" was the procreator of the language. It was then later put to book print in a dictionary that was sold without a lawsuit by a 3rd party. The dictionary was then published online without any lawsuits either. This is essence makes it public domain for use. It's a weak leg to stand on.

Wow, I did not realize that Scotty was the one who really developed it. He was my favorite of the original cast members and am still saddened by his death. Paramount can either let this one go in the interest of fan service, or they can piss off some of the very people(Trekkies like me) who were why they were so successful.
 
Dirty, dirty fans and customers!

Not sure why a language couldn't be copyrighted though.

First thing I'd go with is something along the lines of "Copyrighted work? Can you show me a full example of it? Not just an excerpt, the whole work. Not just quotes please, the whole work, last i checked I can take the words ina book, scramble them around and it's a new work, same for lyrics, a play, a script, etc. So, please show me the whole work upon which I am infringing."

There's a ton of ways to attack a fan film for infringement, this klingon language thing is not one of the one's I'd hang my hat on, even a little bit.
 
Wow, I did not realize that Scotty was the one who really developed it. He was my favorite of the original cast members and am still saddened by his death. Paramount can either let this one go in the interest of fan service, or they can piss off some of the very people(Trekkies like me) who were why they were so successful.

Doohan created the Klingon you see in the first few movies.

Okrand was brought in for ST:TNG to expand it.

Doohan's creation is considered "High Klingon"

While Okrand's changes and additions are considered conversational, every day Klingon.
 
I don't see how a language could be copyrighted. Specific written or spoken Klingon is, of course, subject to copyright, but a translation dictionary is mostly factual (even if it's made up), and a combination of made up words is a new creative creation. If they're using famous Klingon speeches or texts, there could be a legitimate copyright claim. The look of the font is also not protectable (unless, maybe they have a design patent, but then you could make one that looks similar, and besides any patent would have likely expired by now).
 
I think you could argue that once 2 people can speak a language, it is no longer fictional. Every language was invented by someone at some point.

If the copy right office allows this... where will it stop. Some moronic celeb will copyright some moronic word like Redonkulous and we will all have to pay them royalties for uttering it.
 
Seems like copyrighting Klingon would be analogous to copyrighting a programming language. Can you copyright a programming language, like Java, for example? And if so, does that allow the copyright holder to prevent me from writing programs in the langauge, if they chose?

Maybe there's not a clear answer yet, as I found when I did a quick search, and found something about the similarity of Klingon and programming languages as "constructed" languages.... What a Big Software Case Could Mean for Klingon Speakers
 
It seems like there's a pretty strong argument that Paramount could defend the copyrights early on back when it was really essentially content for a story and a creative work. But the fact that they did nothing for years to defend this copyright really should be the crux of the matter. I mean i'm glad they weren't litigation nazis like Disney (who at least is covering their legal ass), but changing their minds after 20 years just makes them seem desperate, inept, and pitiful.
 
actually that is going to be funny... so did they copy right the words in the script or did they simply say anyone saying they are talking Klingon is infringing their trademark... since ip are trademarks, and copy right only covers exactly what is copy righted and translations of same said content because copy right protects you from anyone attempting to get around it offering a translation in a different language with the same content. If they are asserting that they copy righted as series of words that can never be used by anyone else in any order or any combination with other words... they have nothing. Copy right cover what is copy righted an idea or story but it is what you copy right that is protected, and translations of it since it is the same content. If they assert it is trade mark infringement then if they go too broad like say trade marking a single word or syllable is actually illegal all trade marks have to consist of two or more words, to prevent people from trademarking the alphabet... the funny thing is that FORTRAN, Ada, Pascal are not copy righted only the terms were to protect the companies from having some one create a language that sounded similar and causing confusion... the patent office refused to grant them a license to print money I think is what they said at the time. So likely just trying to use the word language is going to get them in trouble... the other company is trying to create a derivative work so likely will get in trouble for that...

As far Tolkien is concerned... all those are old languages he and his linguist group wanted to preserve. He taught English and most of the languages on the planet he could find and saw history being lost because no one spoke ancient Greek or Latin anymore and no one could agree on how they were supposed to sound when spoken. So he went on holiday all over the world speaking to people in these small little villages and hamlets learning things like Gothic, old Ghuntish, Lithuanian and Latvian, Belorussian and dozen other languages that meant something to the people who spoke but pretty got a what language from most people... the runes in his books are all on the rosetia stone and the elf language is simply the accent language that were carved into old ruins all over the world. Wither they were well traveled vikings or people carrying the murals because it was pretty or decorative, I've seen old plates from Norway to japan and bunch of other weird places... the rest is mix of Lapp, Fin, thangelt(sorta secret Swedish subset), Old Ghuntish, Gothic, Icelandic(Norse), and what ever fit the sound he was looking for. There was some guy in his twenties when I was up in Norway the first time and his parents or someone in his village had to have spoken to Tolkien to get the sounds right... but really those are people cultures and should never be considered a new or unique idea by someone else. I'd think he had rolled over in his grave if the languages he tried to preserve in his stories where then lost because someone tried to use copy right to bury them so no one ever spoke them again... I'm sure his old language club probably could have told you were each piece came from...

Most studios have a team of paralegals that tries to set the line miles on the other side so they have some point to compromise to that works without costing the studio the IP. They do this by saying that their trade marks include concepts and ideas that are actionable meaning someone will spend money to have them made into movies or tv shows they can make money on and people copying the ip and using for their own profit are using their registered intellectual property to profit from. I have had a couple scripts actioned and usually that means you sign it over to the person financing all together rather than try to ride it to a complete movie which requires dealing with Hollywood most ruthless group of producers... they will try to make sure to make the largest share they can while leaving the costs up to any writer who tries to make a movie. Sure some of my stuff I posted on my web site years ago and thus was copy righted but not a new script which is usually what holly wood wants. It is too easy to have a competing movie made if people get copies of the ideas you are working on and simply suggest that their's was first. So the legal teams will mix up trade mark and copy right and people who do not have some one who knows what they are talking about will simply settle out of court, since settling does not open you up to other legal proceedings, though people use it as leverage anyway.

But really making money off some else's ideas is what usually gets people in trouble, and how much is usually based on how much it damages the person's company. Pepsi and Coke used to charge money for catching people using their logo's in movies then they started offering money to get them to only use Pepsi or Coke if the ip was a positive thing for the target audience. If it reflects badly you still get sued for damages to the company's bottom line... The best question is did they ask ahead of time to use someone else's idea to make money off of? If they did not doesn't that suggest they did not think they could get permission? but like I said it should be fun to watch as both sides try to ask for more than they are entitled to have something to settle at, while trying to steal each other's income in entirety...
 
Wait a second. The original Klingon language originated from Star Trek but that was just few made up words in a row. The actual language developed from that, spelling and all, was made by Trekkie fans am I right? Paramount has no copyright over that, its essentially a fan creation which then got adopted to official lore. Very different matter from, say, elvish where Tolkien himself made the language, alphabets, spelling and so on from ground up.
What this means is that the fans can actually class action sue Paramount for using the copyrighted Klingon language in the movies without the fans permission :D
 
I'm going to copyright the action of wiping my ass. Get your three seashells out everyone or I'll sue you.

There is prior art for front to back and back to front methodology. You might be able to make a strong case for side to side motion if you file the documentation.
 
Wow, I did not realize that Scotty was the one who really developed it. He was my favorite of the original cast members and am still saddened by his death. Paramount can either let this one go in the interest of fan service, or they can piss off some of the very people(Trekkies like me) who were why they were so successful.

To be honest, I think with the direction of the new movies they do not care about the old generation of fans. They have rebooted the series and with that they are looking for new fans. I have lost almost all interest in this new series of movies. It's James Bond in space*.

*I don't mean to insult the James Bond series, especially with the effort they have put into the last several films.
 
To be honest, I think with the direction of the new movies they do not care about the old generation of fans. They have rebooted the series and with that they are looking for new fans. I have lost almost all interest in this new series of movies. It's James Bond in space*.

*I don't mean to insult the James Bond series, especially with the effort they have put into the last several films.

You say that like it is necessarily was a bad thing. 90% of the time ST was copy/paste plot lines that were unsolvable until a technobabble argle-bargle was thought up by an underpaid yellow-shirt and miraculously fixes things, and everyone lives happily ever after.



They're out of original material. It happens with 50 years of TV and movies. The older and original fans have lived and seen enough Star Trek to have, quite frankly, seen it all before. ST is a giant 50 year running cliche. The bond-ish reboot is at least something sort-of-new to the franchise.
 
Just a bunch of cringe inducing 20th century suits, who can't accept that the days of easy money is over. I hope their kind will die out with them. With the internet everywhere, the days of geographical profling, and putting back things in the hat is over. The sooner they accept it the less painful for everyone.
 
You say that like it is necessarily was a bad thing. 90% of the time ST was copy/paste plot lines that were unsolvable until a technobabble argle-bargle was thought up by an underpaid yellow-shirt and miraculously fixes things, and everyone lives happily ever after.



They're out of original material. It happens with 50 years of TV and movies. The older and original fans have lived and seen enough Star Trek to have, quite frankly, seen it all before. ST is a giant 50 year running cliche. The bond-ish reboot is at least something sort-of-new to the franchise.

I stopped watching after about First Contact. I liked them though up to that point, including Generations and First Contact. But I also lost interest in the shows starting with Deep Space Nine for reasons you present. So you may be right about the content of the newer movies like Nemesis, I have not seen them. I can only see the Enterprise be blown up so many times!
 
I stopped watching after about First Contact. I liked them though up to that point, including Generations and First Contact. But I also lost interest in the shows starting with Deep Space Nine for reasons you present. So you may be right about the content of the newer movies like Nemesis, I have not seen them. I can only see the Enterprise be blown up so many times!

DS9 actually did some original things especially once it got rolling, and is probably my favorite. Acting is a few notches better, plots are less or not at all cookie-cutter, less predictable. Probably helped that Gene Roddenberry wasn't driving things anymore and it was all Rick Berman.

TOS, TNG, and VGR are basically cookie cutter interchangeable plots IIRC. Further because there's very little important and plot/universe shattering that happens, episodes can be watched in any order without being noticed much. Basically the Goodship SeriesTitleName and its crew will need some technobabble to get out of the rut they found themselves in.
 
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