Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen ~ Challenging Epic Planar High Fantasy MMORPG

bigdogchris

bigdogchris

Fully [H]
Joined
Feb 19, 2008
Messages
18,788
http://www.pantheonmmo.com/

Pantheon is a massively multiplayer online roleplaying game (MMORPG) that takes place on Terminus, a high fantasy world of powerful deities, valiant heroes, insidious enemies and fantastic creatures. Pantheon focuses on challenging content and social aspects of gameplay, encouraging groups and guilds, forging new relationships, and earning a reputation in the community.
Click to expand...

*Edit 2*
I started this thread 4 years ago with a positive message about the game. After some shady stuff happened relating to Kickstarter money, I edited my post with a rant, but have now removed it. They have a CFO now and have been operating and making great progress over the past 3 years.

*Edit 3*
Now available on Steam


View: https://store.steampowered.com/app/3107230/Pantheon_Rise_of_the_Fallen/
 
Last edited:
Kickstarter is now live.

If any of you guys are looking for a MMO RPG that is anti-every other casual MMORPG on the market, this is the game you want to support.
 
McQuaid has a history of talking out of his ass. He did it liberally with Vanguard. I call it being McQuaided. Vanguard was a decent looking game, but it hardly did any of what he promised and it crashed every 30 minutes on release. And would have went under if it hadn't essentially been sold to SOE before it released and officially a few months after release.


Now take that above information and look at the Kickstart.

800k to be funded minimum. You won't see beta invites until Jan 2017 (~ 3 years). Most MMOs need about 4-5 years to come out even remotely non-screwed up and even with games using existing engines etc...they have budgets in way above 800k to do it in three or more years.

Just quick searches of a couple recent-ish MMOs.

DCUO - 50 mil.
SWTOR - 200 mil.


So even the stretch goals put up there by Pantheon won't get them the cash they need to develop for 3 years..which was close to 7 million.


And I'll also point out that skimming through the KS video, a lot of the team was from Defiance, which is not a very good MMO in itself. It's pretty boring in a lot of aspects.

And I believe they are expecting to run multiple fund raising things for Pantheon. Maybe it'll turn out, but with how Vanguard went up in flames and couldn't even hold half of the people who bought the game after 2 months.....

Just don't get McQuaided. He's really good at saying the right words to people still seeking an MMO "step forward".
 
veterator said:
McQuaid has a history of talking out of his ass. He did it liberally with Vanguard. I call it being McQuaided. Vanguard was a decent looking game, but it hardly did any of what he promised and it crashed every 30 minutes on release. And would have went under if it hadn't essentially been sold to SOE before it released and officially a few months after release.


Now take that above information and look at the Kickstart.

800k to be funded minimum. You won't see beta invites until Jan 2017 (~ 3 years). Most MMOs need about 4-5 years to come out even remotely non-screwed up and even with games using existing engines etc...they have budgets in way above 800k to do it in three or more years.

Just quick searches of a couple recent-ish MMOs.

DCUO - 50 mil.
SWTOR - 200 mil.


So even the stretch goals put up there by Pantheon won't get them the cash they need to develop for 3 years..which was close to 7 million.


And I'll also point out that skimming through the KS video, a lot of the team was from Defiance, which is not a very good MMO in itself. It's pretty boring in a lot of aspects.

And I believe they are expecting to run multiple fund raising things for Pantheon. Maybe it'll turn out, but with how Vanguard went up in flames and couldn't even hold half of the people who bought the game after 2 months.....

Just don't get McQuaided. He's really good at saying the right words to people still seeking an MMO "step forward".
Click to expand...
Brad admitted he did some dumb things because of his previous success and how it affected his personality, just read the second quote in my first post. Since he's been back working on MMO's (since February 2012) he's been very friendly and forthcoming about his past. Whatever happened back then, it's time to move on. Many people have successes and failures. You won't always be successful and you won't always fail, but you have to accept both.

As for the budget, KS is only part of the total budget. Brad has already talked about how with EQ they only had 25 people and look at the final product? He continued by saying that designing and programming the game engine back then was very difficult and that the modern engines almost feel "like cheating" because they're so easy. I don't see why a team of 20 people won't be enough. So a budget of a few million dollars isn't going to be an issue at all. He also said the game is going to be zone based, which drastically reduces the budget because you have a lot less designers and artist.
 
Last edited:
First developer update has been posted. Here's a snip:

We believe that the player should dictate how far they progress and not have everyone with the same quality of character, despite the amount of effort put in. To us effort = reward and there will be a difference between players that have a lot of dedication versus those who can only play a little. We believe that when players get together and put in a group effort, the rewards should match.
Click to expand...

Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen, Kickstarter Update 1:
 
bigdogchris said:
Kickstarter is now live.

If any of you guys are looking for a MMO RPG that is anti-every other casual MMORPG on the market, this is the game you want to support.
Click to expand...

There have been multiple MMOs that target the "hardcore" audience and they have all failed to catch on.
 
AceCR42 said:
There have been multiple MMOs that target the "hardcore" audience and they have all failed to catch on.
Click to expand...
No where on my post or on the Kickstarter does it say this is "Hardcore". It clearly states in the video they want to separate tedium and difficulty and just want to build a game where everyone is not the same.

There are a lot of people on this board that talk about being tired of these MMO's where you get board and run out of things to do in a few weeks because you've already capped. And you have to admit, other than different graphics, most high fantasy fantasy MMO's out there are pretty much the same. These guys want to change that.

They've also added a few more pledge amounts.
 
Last edited:
It's definitely good to be passionate about something, but the problem with McQuaid is that he says "I screwed up, now give me money so I can prove to you that I can deliver" when what he should be saying is "Let me deliver to you so you are happy to give me your money".

Paying into this project is literally like throwing money into a burn barrel.
 
Thuleman said:
It's definitely good to be passionate about something, but the problem with McQuaid is that he says "I screwed up, now give me money so I can prove to you that I can deliver" when what he should be saying is "Let me deliver to you so you are happy to give me your money".

Paying into this project is literally like throwing money into a burn barrel.
Click to expand...
In' a knee jerk reaction way, you're absolutely right. People have the right to be worried about backing projects on Kickstarter or be worried because the last project didn't live up to expectations. But how many people fail at everything they do? Businesses don't always succeed, that doesn't mean you throw in the towel when you have another idea.

Step back, look at what this team has accomplish. EQ was very successful, and to this day many people say it was their favorite MMO, even 14 years later. Brad was also in charge of SOE and responsible for SWG, which was a huge hit with many people in this forum. VG didn't turn out great, but after 6 years it's still alive and kicking, which is still better than a lot of other MMO's.

Then you look at someone like Richard Garriott. What has he done in the past 15 years other than build an enormous MMO that died after 2 years? And people say VG was a flop? People still gave Garritt money because he has succeeded before.
 
bigdogchris said:
In' a knee jerk reaction way, you're absolutely right. People have the right to be worried about backing projects on Kickstarter or be worried because the last project didn't live up to expectations. But how many people fail at everything they do? Businesses don't always succeed, that doesn't mean you throw in the towel when you have another idea.
Click to expand...

Let me quote some relevant pieces of what McQuaid said:

"I still think VG was awesome in many ways and I’m still proud of it"
"I know this is what I want to do for the rest of my life: make MMOs that I and other gamers want to play"

I have no interest in financing McQuaid's delusions of grandeur. Note the order in which he listed himself and other gamers.

McQuaid got lucky with EQ at a time when there was no viable alternative. Stock traders have a saying: The market is always right. It doesn't matter what one thinks, what one's theory is, or what one's emotional attachment to something is, because at the end of the day the market decides the value of something.

The market rejected VG as total crap.

The market also doesn't find grindy time-sink MMOs valuable. Running across the Karanas (in EQ) for the first time was one of my best gaming experiences ever because I came across a stranger, we chatted about what we had seen and what dangers we encountered, split some food and water, and went on our separate ways.

Today you don't have an experience like that anymore. People just look maps up on the Internet and when you ask a question about the game in game the standard response is "Let me google that for you!".

EQ2 failed at launch because it required groups to do anything meaningful while people could solo in WoW. That was in 2004, 8 years ago!

No significant number of people want a hardcore MMO akin to EQ with modern graphics in today's market. Why? Because there are approximately 90576930363 things that compete for very limited entertainment time. So when a gamer decides what to play he or she will pick some "instant action" game rather than a game where you have to run for 20 minutes to get from A to B, or LFG for half an hour because you can't find a healer, etc. etc. etc.

McQuaid refuses to realize that the type of gamer who played EQ simply doesn't exist today anymore so making a game for those folks is just not necessary.

Either way, the market will prove someone right.
 
Thuleman said:
Let me quote some relevant pieces of what McQuaid said:

"I still think VG was awesome in many ways and I’m still proud of it"
"I know this is what I want to do for the rest of my life: make MMOs that I and other gamers want to play"

I have no interest in financing McQuaid's delusions of grandeur. Note the order in which he listed himself and other gamers.

McQuaid got lucky with EQ at a time when there was no viable alternative. Stock traders have a saying: The market is always right. It doesn't matter what one thinks, what one's theory is, or what one's emotional attachment to something is, because at the end of the day the market decides the value of something.

The market rejected VG as total crap.

The market also doesn't find grindy time-sink MMOs valuable. Running across the Karanas (in EQ) for the first time was one of my best gaming experiences ever because I came across a stranger, we chatted about what we had seen and what dangers we encountered, split some food and water, and went on our separate ways.

Today you don't have an experience like that anymore. People just look maps up on the Internet and when you ask a question about the game in game the standard response is "Let me google that for you!".

EQ2 failed at launch because it required groups to do anything meaningful while people could solo in WoW. That was in 2004, 8 years ago!

No significant number of people want a hardcore MMO akin to EQ with modern graphics in today's market. Why? Because there are approximately 90576930363 things that compete for very limited entertainment time. So when a gamer decides what to play he or she will pick some "instant action" game rather than a game where you have to run for 20 minutes to get from A to B, or LFG for half an hour because you can't find a healer, etc. etc. etc.

McQuaid refuses to realize that the type of gamer who played EQ simply doesn't exist today anymore so making a game for those folks is just not necessary.

Either way, the market will prove someone right.
Click to expand...

There are plenty of old farts like me who would LOVE to play an old "Hard" group oriented MMO. Will you get anything remotely close to WoW numbers? Of course not. But could you get enough subs to keep a few servers healthy? Yup! My son would NEVER play EQ or it's like. This generation of gamers like we all know is insta-grat-gimme-now, but their daddy's are.

VG was a failure, yes, but it just missed the mark IMO. Couple bad devs (That it seems Brad is silly enough to bring over), couple bad design decisions, some coke, and a bad graphics engine. Christ, VG still chugs on todays hardware. If they could take the base of VG as a start, and add on to that...they will be OK.

I pray he pulls this off. I just want a good old fashioned group oriented, unforgiving MMO.
 
Then you look at someone like Richard Garriott. What has he done in the past 15 years other than build an enormous MMO that died after 2 years? And people say VG was a flop? People still gave Garritt money because he has succeeded before.
Click to expand...

At least Garriott is trying to remake his Ultima series now and to me his new game looks more consumer friendly then this one. I still wouldnt give money to either of them but Garriott's is the one I am looking too see where it goes.
 
I would like to like this game, if htat makes sense, but to me it seems like it's taking the things I didn't enjoy about some older mmo's (everquest).

Forced grouping (how many times did they emphasis grouping in that pitch video) and downtime between fights (Ie sitting on your ass waiting for health/mana regen or something similar I'd assume).

Just brings back all those things that annoyed me about Everquest, the loggin in and sitting around town doing /lfg for 30 minutes until we got one together and then fighting something and having to /sit to regen , rinse and repeat.

Sure that "could" invoke some social interaction while you're waiting but there are other actually FUN ways to promote social interaction instead of making people rest between fights and things.

(IE player economies/crafting, the SWG style of "combat wounds" that you would go to a tavern to heal up after a while, these weren't something you had to do between every fight or anything but when you had the time and it promoted a lot of interaction between those people that offered such services and those that needed them.
 
Thuleman, I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I think you are making a little too many assumptions about the project.

The market also doesn't find grindy time-sink MMOs valuable.
Click to expand...

You continue to refer to it as "hardcore" and now say "grindy" and "timesink". It's been clearly stated that's not the case with this game and no where does Brad or anyone else say that's what this game is. If you could clear it up for me as to where you see that information, please post so I can refrain from denying that's not the case.

I don't think you've watched the videos, so here's a paraphrase of Brad describing more challenging MMO:

"We're not looking at corpse runs and big penalties and punishing you and making you have to grind and do tedious and repetitive things. Difficult means you encounter a challenge that you have to think through and plan with your group. Even if you fail an encounter a couple times, hopefully your eventually victorious and feel a great sense of accomplishment".

McQuaid got lucky with EQ at a time when there was no viable alternative.
Click to expand...
I love it when people say this. You act like people were forced to play it or that no other MMO or MP game existed. There were numerous other MMOs and there were numerous MP games available at the time or shortly thereafter; Ultimate Online, Meridian 59, Dark Age of Camelot, and Asheron's Call were all hugely popular for one, and a slew of FPS games that people played online and through LAN, which were both very popular back then. Oh, lets not forget about Diablo, which people played online for years and for free and then again in 2001 with D2 came out.

People chose to play EQ because they wanted too, not because they had too. And since I'm inferring from your comments that "most people only want to casually solo" why would they spend money to play a multiplayer game?

The market rejected VG as total crap.
Click to expand...
Microsoft changed leadership and they pulled out of the MMO industry. Stuff like that happens all the time. They had to get funding through SOE but even then it wasn't enough to finish the game, so it shipped early. It definitely had it's problems, performance issues probably turning away the most amount of people since they couldn't even play it. That doesn't mean all of the concepts and mechanics were flawed. The game did have many good qualities. Offensive target and defensive target is a great mechanic that Brad is putting into Pantheon.

EQ2 failed at launch because it required groups to do anything meaningful while people could solo in WoW. That was in 2004, 8 years ago!
Click to expand...
Pantheon supports soloing. It says clearly on the page that people can solo but that the better loot is obtained with grouping. I don't see a problem with that concept. If person A plays for 1 hour and person B plays for 6 hours and can find groups, should person A still have earned just as much gold and equipment? I don't really see any other reason to be against this type of game play unless someone believes in equal reward regardless of effort. I'm happy to listen to idea's if you could elaborate.
No significant number of people want a hardcore MMO akin to EQ with modern graphics in today's market. Why? Because there are approximately 90576930363 things that compete for very limited entertainment time.
Click to expand...
Again with the "hardcore" stuff. Anyways, maybe you don't have time anymore but I think most gamers spend many hours per day gaming, and if they don't, when the do get a chance it's many hours at a time. I could create a poll here to see how many hours per day people game. I think it's more than 30-60 minutes, or whatever else is considered casual and time limited entertainment.
Either way, the market will prove someone right.
Click to expand...
I think the problem this project has is Brad's bad reputation more so than the game he wants to make. For as many positive Pantheon threads and comments, there's equally as many negative ones that are directed primary at Brad as a person. I think you've demonstrated that for us.
 
Last edited:
bigdogchris said:
You continue to refer to it as "hardcore" and now say "grindy" and "timesink". It's been clearly stated that's not the case with this game and no where does Brad or anyone else say that's what this game is. If you could clear it up for me as to where you see that information, please post so I can refrain from denying that's not the case.
Click to expand...

It's inferred by requiring grouping. I am personally all for the holy trinity, and I was highly successful as Cleric in EQ, but I also know that lots of people were LFG in EQ for long long times before they would get groups. That should at least somewhat explain the "timesink" part. The video I watched must have mentioned focus on grouping a billion times in the few minutes of runtime.

As for "grindy" ..., the last major MMO that claimed to end grind forever was GW2, and anyone who played it can tell you that the grind was just dressed up. There is simply no mechanic by which a character could progress that doesn't involve grind.

"Difficult means you encounter a challenge that you have to think through and plan with your group. Even if you fail an encounter a couple times, hopefully your eventually victorious and feel a great sense of accomplishment".
Click to expand...

How is this different than any other MMO out there? There's nothing special about that approach. The encounter is what it is, you learn the strat (or youtube it), and then you beat it.

bigdogchris said:
I love it when people say this. You act like people were forced to play it or that no other MMO or MP game existed.
Click to expand...

MP doesn't compare to MMO, it didn't back then, it doesn't today, no sense in bringing it into the discussion unless you just want to deflect. Comparing Meridian 59 to EQ is like comparing a Yugo to a BMW, sure, both a cars, that's about the only similarity. There was nothing like EQ on the market before EQ came out and for a good while after EQ came out. Especially since most other games you mentioned featured non-consensual PvP which was not attractive to the mass market.

bigdogchris said:
And since I'm inferring from your comments that "most people only want to casually solo" why would they spend money to play a multiplayer game?
Click to expand...

Today's MMO players don't want to have to rely on a group. Why? Well, in my opinion that is because most MMO players are complete pricks and even pricks don't want to group with other pricks. Other than that, no idea, PhD theses have probably been written about social behavior in MMOs Might be worth it to ask the millions of WoW subscribers why they prefer a game in which you are not required to group for anything but the very end-game.

bigdogchris said:
I think the problem this project has is Brad's bad reputation more so than the game he wants to make. For as many positive Pantheon threads and comments, there's equally as many negative ones that are directed primary at Brad as a person. I think you've demonstrated that for us.
Click to expand...

I absolutely agree. I don't believe that someone with a personality like Brad can change. I do believe that he is trying to keep it together but ultimately he's going to let his true character come true and dress someone down on social media. To me the best illustration of that was the phrase "I want to make MMOs that I [...] want to play".

bigdogchris, I think it's great that you are excited about this game and that you stand up for it, just as long as you realize that Brad is not coding it for you, he just needs you to pay for it.
 
Last edited:
This argument reminds me of:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDXSXkYoM5Y

UO: Hardcore Semi-Sandbox Grinding Treadmill Garbage
EQ1: Hardcore Linear Grinding Treadmill Garbage
DAoC: Semi-Casual Linear Grinding Treadmill Garbage
AC2: Semi-Casual Linear Grinding Treadmill Garbage
SB: Hardcore Semi-Linear Grinding Treadmill Broken Garbage
EVE: Hardcore Semi-Sandbox Grinding Treadmill Garbage
SWG: Semi-Hardcore Semi-Sandbox Grinding Treadmill Broken Garbage
WoW: Casual Linear Grinding Treadmill Polished Garbage
EQ2: Casual Linear Grinding Treadmill Garbage
GW1: Casual Linear Grinding Treadmill Garbage
VG: Semi-Hardcore Linear Grinding Treadmill Broken Garbage
SWTOR: Casual Linear Grinding Treadmill Voice-over Garbage
GW2: Casual Linear Grinding Treadmill Garbage

As you can see, there is an untapped market. Pantheon does not have to cater to the "old" hardcore audience or the "younger" casual audience or the "brand new" pay-2-win audience. All it has to do is cater to the the audience that wants a semi-hardcore or semi-casual full-sandbox that has no grinding treadmill and is not broken. Basically, the non-garbage market.

Unfortunately, this is the future of Panethon:
Semi-Hardcore Linear Grinding Treadmill Unfinished Broken Garbage

The wait for the savior MMORPG continues, but it might never arrive since people's standards continue to go drop lower and lower, and as a result, there is no pressure for anyone to develop it.
 
Last edited:
Obviously I'm going to agree with Thuleman more or less. I don't trust McQuaid until he proves otherwise. Most of the stuff he says sounds good, but implementation is what matters. And even simple concepts like corpse runs or grouping systems could take up a 15 minute video explaining them to any kind of useful degree. Saying group focused doesn't really mean much to me besides over half the content will be accessible by groups only, but a lot more.

Everquest is remembered fondly more because before that people who wanted more than 10-16 people in a RPG like "world" were mostly stuck playing text based MUDs unless they liked top down or paying by the hour. It brought all that imagination you had to use while playing text based games, stuck a skin on it people could mostly go along with, and showed people a start to what they could reasonably expect RPG games to build off of. It was FAAAAARRRRR from perfect, that game had so many issues and for an MMO...by today's standards they milked their customer base with both frequent expansions, something around every 6-8 months to buy, also with a monthly fee. Even had servers where people paid more to play on them for more "better" loot and GM ran events.

Hell Everquest had:
- Corpse camping

- Corpse runs (at first you couldn't drag bodies or summon bodies to zone lines but could consent people to loot your body FOR you..guess how that turned out)

- Corpse rot (I think it was originally like 12 hours in real time, maybe 24)

- NPCs that could charm PCs for long periods of time where there was jack shit you could do to get out of it. Hags in Unrest could charm someone and walk em around for minutes where they could do nothing

- Experience wasn't shared across all people who killed something unless grouped. And only then it was awarded based on which INDIVIDUAL did the most damage. So a full group could kill named NPC, but a wizard could be hiding off to the side nuking the ever loving shit out of it by himself and win the XP and loot rights because he did 15-20% of the damage. He gets full XP and loot, group got nothing even though they took all the risk.

- Kiting, while I liked it as an option. First hit didn't matter for anything but aggro. It was a constant PAIN to deal with people trying to still your kill from you or groups coming over to kill it once you did the pulling and splitting of the camp by yourself. Means you could die a dozen times getting the camp spot perfect, then some group rolls in and there was shit all you could do about it...or someone with higher DPS. I ran a druid, I had wizards all the time trying to take my kites once I snared them. So eventually I had to stop snaring them until I did a good portion of damage...it was an utter PITA since many things were just a LIITTLE bit slower and you had to run a lot more and would get more and more on you.

And Im sure if I thought about it awhile I could come up with more stuff. But there was one thing that absolutely pissed me off about Everquest that I think is very relevant to McQuaid's new venture.

It's a two fold issue, but they are so intertwined with each other I don't see how you could ignore one over the other. 1) Itemization: Things like manastones, rubicite, certain containers, weapons. 2) Difficulty: Modifications to locations AFTER they had been run through by all the "hardcore" players, and itemizations being reduced or removed completely.

So manastones used to be dropped in Guk, people used to camp the shit out of it for a chance at em. I wanted one, I leveled up to try to get one myself. About the time I was able to do it on my own, they removed it for "balance" but let everyone keep the ones they had unchanged.

Rubicite Cazic-thule drops, was essentially leather but looked like plate. Had regen on the breastplate so it was super popular. People used to bicker over the spots...kill steal, etc etc. It was a major problem for players. But instead of addressing the problem in a more fair way, they just removed rubicite from the drop table and let people keep what they had. But they also happened to do this right after they added items very similar to rubicite that dropped all over in expansions....in higher level locations.

Containers that were 0 weight and made stuff inside 0 weight, or reduced were big time for monks. There was one I can't remember the name of in Oasis that dropped off ghost things. Black hole, black box, something. They removed those from the drop table and added lesser versions in expansions, people who had these old ones were at a big advantage as monks trying to keep their carrying weight down.

Ykeshas, twigs, etc...all kinds of weapons had "new" versions introduced that were shittier versions of the old ones with the same names....or removed from drop tables but left in game for those who had them.


So all of the item stuff above, we get to difficulty. With the exception of the beginning of the game, most zones were EASIER when released in expansions then made more difficult or less rewarding after a few weeks or months. This meant that players who were at the upper most levels and played a fuckload could zip through the content, get all the good shit at the higher drop rates and often times easier encounters. Then when the wave of less "hardcore" players got there, the fight wouldn't drop shit as often and would be much more difficult based on the "hardcore" players feedback with all their new gear they collected helping them along. I still can't shake the feeling that SOE did this shit on purpose, because they did it with every expansion I was ever around for in EQ....people'd hear about drops coming from "random XYZ" and would want to get the expansion right away to try to get those loots. Then find out it was a "bug" and those couple hundred/thousand "hardcore" lucky few were just......lucky again for the dozenth time.


So Everquest was a success, but I have to call into question it's "hardcore" nature being why it was a success. I believe it was more of them cashing in on people's hope for fantasy settings and character advancement but only letting a few ever really get the full experience, and slowing everyone else down to keep em hoping. Because they did this stuff over and over and over despite what they may have said or released...it continued to happen for 4-6 years as my subscription was renewed to try out things I kept seeing it.

And this is ignoring the GM corruption EQ had....where they used to be assigned to servers and they'd "help" people they knew...or had an alt in their guild with. And it's unwillingness to restore characters who lost equipment due to bugs. Trade bug where if you had items in bags in trade window, they would sometimes only partially go through....so full bags would be missing half. Or zoning into a zone and coming out on the other side naked, like you died while zoning but didn't return to your bind point. Mistmoore zone line was known for eating equipment.....and that's also another zone they tinkered with and only a few got to see certain things/loot in it.
 
You know this thread wasn't about starting a hate war vs a love war.

I hear so much about Brad's Vanguard failures, but what about Everquest? What about Velious or Kunark? Those were some of the best MMO times. We hear of EQ2 and Brad, well so people know, Brad left EQ2 very early in development due to differing opinion on chasing another game.

Vanguard is still the best MMO I have ever played, buggy and all, no other MMO offers it's depth or style of play. But it is not for everyone, we have more than one game for a reason, each must find and choose what they enjoy, after all gaming is simply a hobby for fun and escape from our real lives.

I have met Brad, and had a very long conversation with him over the current state of gaming, how many here "hating" can say the same? I can assure you he had it all in his mind then, before the lay off, which may have been the best thing for him.

This is not all about Brad either, he has a small but very experienced team, several of which I have met and spent a considerable amount of time with, again can any here say the same?

Am I confident they can deliver? well a $500 pledge confident. Can I tell you with %100 certainty? No, I know you will die, and until than you will pay taxes, everything else is fluid.

Everyone is allowed their thoughts and opinions, but lets tone down the juvenile hate over what amounts to games, that's it, games.

I think they can do it, and I put my money where my mouth is. Each here is welcome to the same, back it or not, but I think I have found my last MMO home before I get too old to run a keyboard.

For those that choose to back it? Welcome!! For those that don't? Too bad, but fair is fair its your hard earned dollar, and choosing where we spent our meager after tax dollar is one of our last true freedoms, thanks for exercising it.

Exmortis aka "Scott"
 
Gmok Bonecrusha said:
There are plenty of old farts like me who would LOVE to play an old "Hard" group oriented MMO. Will you get anything remotely close to WoW numbers? Of course not. But could you get enough subs to keep a few servers healthy? Yup!
Click to expand...

Simply untrue.

EQ2 and WoW launched about the same time. One was a group centric time investment MMO and the other wasn't. One made billions and the other almost died before they made enough changes to keep afloat in the post WoW market.

There isn't an audience for this type of MMO no matter what people try to imply.

People put up with the bullshit in EQ because there wasn't any alternatives and now look at it with rose colored glasses.
 
OpStar said:
Simply untrue.

EQ2 and WoW launched about the same time. One was a group centric time investment MMO and the other wasn't. One made billions and the other almost died before they made enough changes to keep afloat in the post WoW market.

There isn't an audience for this type of MMO no matter what people try to imply.

People put up with the bullshit in EQ because there wasn't any alternatives and now look at it with rose colored glasses.
Click to expand...

There is an audience, or those MMOs wouldn't still be around. This world where if you aren't the most successful MMO to ever exist, you don't exist... is not the real world.
 
Exmortis said:
This is not all about Brad either, he has a small but very experienced team, several of which I have met and spent a considerable amount of time with, again can any here say the same?

Am I confident they can deliver? well a $500 pledge confident. Can I tell you with %100 certainty? No, I know you will die, and until than you will pay taxes, everything else is fluid.
Click to expand...

Let me be the first to welcome you to the forum.

Other than that, someone like Brad considering his industry reputation (not consumer reputation), with the commando crack team you are talking about, building the best MMO ever, shouldn't need Kickstarter to get it done because investors should line up a mile long to buy into the next big thing, no?
 
You target an audience for the game.
games are suppose to be fun to play, todays MMO are a solo play instance without any real need to talk/chat or group and you fly your way to level 50 in a few hours or days.
so while an MMO made easier they also become boring and tedious raid end game.

I dont trust Brad, not after Vanguard which was horrible.

Even if you need to grind the thing is you do it for the reward, if you decide the reward is worth the time and effort, you just do it.
I waited a whole year before being able to go into plane of hate to get the BP I wanted and the trip there while doing everything along the way made the game.
fun dont mean easy and comfort, it means pain and struggling along the way.

level 50 for example should take someone in hardcore a year to reach and then if they add expansion another year for level 60.
unless you slow down level progression people out level the game content.
you make crafting worth something if you slow down or else its just about the end game.

Starwars mmo was to easy, you outleveled content.
tried a few and the mechanics they have like rift is solid but leveling again easy and fast.
did the beta to elder scrolls the last weekend, its a better attempt and maybe its going to function well.

overall, not so impress with designers of MMO games.
 
A mindset that Designed Downtime should be a part of the game to ensure players have time to form important social bonds.
Click to expand...

I think this is just nonsense. When I group, it's one of two scenarios:
1. It's with guild members or other people I already know, we already have social bonds. If we want to further socially bond while we're grouping we take it slow, if we just want to kill shit, we just kill shit.
2. It's with random people that I don't want to socially bond with, and I just want to kill shit as quick as I can.

Not sure if it really changed over its lifespan, but I played EQ2 for 2 or 3 years and when I played I'd say it essentially had zero downtime when grouping. I made tons of friends during that time, including multiple that I basically consider close, personal friends.

Social people don't need to be forced to socialized, and you don't want non-social people being forced to socialize because they don't like it and the people they're being forced to socialize with don't enjoy it either.

With things like guilds, guild halls, chat channels, crafting areas, etc, I think forced down time is just completely unnecessary and silly.

I personally wouldn't fund a kickstarter for any MMO.
 
Gmok Bonecrusha said:
There are plenty of old farts like me who would LOVE to play an old "Hard" group oriented MMO. Will you get anything remotely close to WoW numbers? Of course not. But could you get enough subs to keep a few servers healthy? Yup!
Click to expand...

Is "enough subs to keep a few servers healthy" going to generate the many millions of up front dollars needed to make an MMO that is worth a crap? Nope! Not as far as I'm concerned. I don't see how the depth and variety I require in an MMO can be done for a few (or 7, or 10) million bucks.

bigdogchris said:
As for the budget, KS is only part of the total budget.
Click to expand...

Where's the rest of it from? How much is it?
 
Frankie said:
Where's the rest of it from? How much is it?
Click to expand...
So far everyone is working without pay. The KS money is to pay for office space and equipment needed to build the game. Once the game is funded and they get further into the working build part, they will be able to show off the product to investors.

The game is going to cost at least 8-10M to do, so KS is only part of the equation.

The bottom line is you have to start somewhere. They need our help to prove to investors or publishers that people still want this kind of game.
 
Just out of morbid curiosity I did have a look at the KS page. The reward tier implementation alone are a reason not to give this project any money at all.

If you pledge X you will get Y, but not Z, and only if you didn't pledge B already. However, If you pledge 100 * X then you will get K, but K doesn't include any of the X stuff except for the stuff D comes with.

Seriously, if they cannot even develop a straight forward KS tier system, how is anyone supposed to put $800k up on faith that they will get an MMO right?!
 
Thuleman said:
Just out of morbid curiosity I did have a look at the KS page. The reward tier implementation alone are a reason not to give this project any money at all.

If you pledge X you will get Y, but not Z, and only if you didn't pledge B already. However, If you pledge 100 * X then you will get K, but K doesn't include any of the X stuff except for the stuff D comes with.

Seriously, if they cannot even develop a straight forward KS tier system, how is anyone supposed to put $800k up on faith that they will get an MMO right?!
Click to expand...

I do agree that the tiers are bleh. The higher ones especially. I guess it depends how much value you hold in naming in game items and such. The 300 pledge is the sweet spot IMO. Pays for itself plus YOU get to play with "Bonecrusha's Breastplate".
 
Thuleman said:
Just out of morbid curiosity I did have a look at the KS page. The reward tier implementation alone are a reason not to give this project any money at all.

If you pledge X you will get Y, but not Z, and only if you didn't pledge B already. However, If you pledge 100 * X then you will get K, but K doesn't include any of the X stuff except for the stuff D comes with.

Seriously, if they cannot even develop a straight forward KS tier system, how is anyone supposed to put $800k up on faith that they will get an MMO right?!
Click to expand...
What your saying only applies to special pledge levels that have specific rewards. I don't see a problem with it.

There's no written rule that pledge levels must include every previous pledge level.
 
OpStar said:
All of them, including original EQ, are way less time sink group oriented now then they used to be. Pay to win items, etc.
Click to expand...

That's true. Though Korean MMO's tend to adopt that old grind mentality, and some of them are really popular.
 
The KickStarter has been updated. The pledge tiers have been improved and better explained. They also revamped Stretch goals.
 
Brad let it slip on Rerolled forums that they are going to add a cloth map pledge level.
 
Updated with a new video interview with Boogie2988 (Francis) where Brad gets asked about Vanguard and he answers it like a man. Of course, a lot of other great information as well.

Boogie says it best ~ "I think this is something the MMO genre really needs, I think it's stale right now. I think anyone that wants to break the mold is doing the right thing. I'm eager and glad to see you guys are willing to crack it wide open by revisiting the beginning and rebuilding from there".
 
Last edited:
I think anyone that wants to break the mold is doing the right thing
Click to expand...

Horrible quote there not really breaking the mold, just repeating stuff done in the past. If they were really breaking the mold do a different enviroment or time that an mmo can take place in to start.
 
Exactly, how's it breaking the mold by starting from a place we already been?

Many mmo's followed EQ's style of gameplay and it has evolved (WoW, etC)

Forced grouping
The "Trinity"
Themepark world design.
Loot focused gameplay (IE dungeon/raid to get loot)

Many of the things we have now, IE group finder, less/no "downtime" in between fighting, evolved for a reason.

It wasn't fun back then to have to /sit and rest between fights, and it sure as heck isn't fun now.

There are other more fun/meaningful ways to enforce social bonds/player interactions then foricng people to have to rest between fights when they'd rather be doing something else.


Watching that video, it was a bit hard at the 20 minute mark, when he asks him about Vanguard and how he talks about what it was like and how he put his game before his family and had money problems/budget issues going from MS to sony.

He seems like a humble guy and I do hope he is able to continue to make games/have a decent career.

Also it seems Richard Garriott has teamed up with Brad to do a cross-game promotion, Where you can get a cloak for Shroud of Avatar in Panethon ora cloack featuring Pantheon in Shroud if yo upledge to both games.

http://www.tentonhammer.com/pantheo...-of-the-avatar-announce-cross-promotion-cloak

Maybe that will help it get to it's goal.

I do hope it gets unded if people do indeed want it.
 
Last edited:
Pretty unlikely that it will get funded (not surprising though) given the current rate at which they add pledges.

Chris Roberts is breaking the mold with Star Citizen, whether that game will ultimately be successful remains to be seen but at least the development is well funded. Pantheon is squarely inside the mold and even if one looks at it objectively (i.e. if one does not consider the dev(s)), there's just nothing special about this game that sets it apart from so many other fantasy MMOs out there. Sure, some mechanics may be ever so slightly different, big whoop.
 
Thuleman said:
Chris Roberts is breaking the mold with Star Citizen, whether that game will ultimately be successful remains to be seen but at least the development is well funded. Pantheon is squarely inside the mold and even if one looks at it objectively (i.e. if one does not consider the dev(s)), there's just nothing special about this game that sets it apart from so many other fantasy MMOs out there. Sure, some mechanics may be ever so slightly different, big whoop.
Click to expand...
I completely disagree. The only similarity is that it is a fantasy game. Most modern fantasy MMO's are quest hub driven, 3rd person action-RPG games that have quick advancement to the top.

Pantheon is not quest driven, but has fewer but larger "epic" style quest, 1st person view, tactical and group combat with more horizontal advancement.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top