Oregon Man Temporarily Wins the Right to Call Himself an "Engineer"

Discussion in 'HardForum Tech News' started by Megalith, Jun 1, 2017.

  1. If your company gives you that title, it's on them is something goes wrong.

    If you present yourself as an engineer and aren't, that is on you.

    I'm not claiming you are not qualified. You may very will be. But your liability goes up if you present yourself as something as you are not. Your company chose to give you that title, so the responsibility rest with them legally.
     
  2. Dude, I used dandelions when I was a kid to cure warts I had on my finger, some hippy as shit teacher I had told me to pick a dandelion with its stem and at the bottom of the stem their is white liquid, everyday put the white liquid on the warts and its a painless wart cure.

    No shit, I had been to doctors who burned the fuckers off and they still came back, one week of dandelion juice and the shits be gone for ever, rocking 30 years later and still no sign of them, shit works.
     
  3. Teenyman45

    Teenyman45 2[H]4U

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    Except you can be an accountant who isn't a CPA or a lawyer who is not a member of any state or federal bar. Lacking appropriate licensure (the forum's spell check does not like that word) simply curtails what professional activities a person can engage in. This man has an engineering degree even if it is in a somewhat different field. He should be able to call himself an engineer. It's only a problem if he holds himself out professionally and practices as the specific traffic safety / civil engineer that requires governmental licensing.
     
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  4. J3RK

    J3RK [H]ardForum Junkie

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    That's just the name of the position that I moved into really though, not really a personal title. I doubt there is much if any liability on either side in such a case. There really wasn't any misrepresentation there I don't think. I agree though, as soon as something is truly misrepresented, then there is a problem.

    Side note, I've also been an "IT Manager" doing the same kind of work, and not actually managing any personnel. I guess one could say that I managed daily IT needs for the company, but that's still somewhat of a goofy label. They could just as well have called me the Director of IT since I was the only IT staff period. :D (but they wouldn't do that because it would imply that I sat on the board :D )
     
  5. yyv_146

    yyv_146 Limp Gawd

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    I think there's really two parts to the question here.

    First, if I write "I am a lawyer" in a letter, I may or may not be using that information to declare authority over a certain matter. For example, I could be saying "I am a lawyer, so I don't have a sense of humor". That's harmless. But not so much if I say "I am a lawyer, and I think that so-and-so law is stupid". The latter is using that status to declare authority.

    In this case it seems like he was very much doing the latter - and the law is clear that engineer, similar to "doctor", "professor" or "lawyer", requires professional qualifications. Should it be in modern times when engineering disciplines are more diverse than they were in the past? Maybe, but that's not for him to decide.
     
  6. MarkVI

    MarkVI Limp Gawd

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    Are you aware that the term "doctor" comes from the Latin verb that means "to teach?" It's historically inaccurate to say that only medical doctors should be called "doctor." A more accurate term would be physician.

    There's a reason when you go to college you address the teachers with terminal degrees as doctor.
     
  7. Ididar

    Ididar Gawd

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    He wrote a report and signed it as an Engineer. Little different than a feedback form.
     
  8. Uvaman2

    Uvaman2 2[H]4U

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    Still feedback with no intent of misrepresented authority. Just as sign of education/ intelligence / relevance.. Its very clear to me... Assholery from government.
     
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  9. Axiomatic

    Axiomatic Limp Gawd

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    This whole "engineering" purist argument is bunk. I am an engineer of computer hardware and software but I have no engineering degree. But I don't call myself that. That is actually the title of my position with my company. I have no control over it. So if you would like to take on all the tech companies that title my position as "engineer" please go for it. Spend all your energy on it please. But I doubt that is going to get the term "engineer" removed from my business card or my employee review.
     
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  10. Uvaman2

    Uvaman2 2[H]4U

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    There is that, but there is also calling yourself a dentist (and not be one in the state), and doing dental work on a patient and such.
    Or calling yourself a dentist and say applying for a position in the dental health and safety board of Oregon (I made that up, I don't know if there is such a thing)
    Then there is calling yourself a dentist (and being one from Timbuktu) and writing as a citizen some complaints or stacks of complaints about concerns about not having fluorine in water.
    They law was applied wrong, in order to be jerks about this person, I think this is obvious.
     
  11. Azrak

    Azrak Gawd

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    So if I have a BSEE degree from an accredited university, but my day job is writing software, what should my job title be?
     
  12. Darunion

    Darunion 2[H]4U

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    My company gave me the title associate engineer. They won't give me electrical engineer because of my schooling. But I am going to use what they gave me as my title as well.

    I really think it shouldn't matter. People can call themselves whatever they want, especially since 'engineer' is so broad anymore.

    And there really are people that think when someone graduates college they can do everything taught to them? The amount of mistakes I myself have found from mechanical and electrical engineers with masters is staggering.

    IMO show me what you can do, not what some paper says you know how to do. Hell my school I went to was garbage, I learned most from actually my high school vocational and in the field under experienced co-workers.
     
  13. Scizyr

    Scizyr Limp Gawd

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    I don't know if it's intentional but you really come off as stuck up and snobbish in this thread. You seem to hold the opinion that formal education and certifications are your god and anyone without them shouldn't be doing any work whatsoever.

    I call myself an engineer without any formal education, I've run circles around most formal engineers in my field and I make more money than them because I can demonstrate my hard-earned real world skills better than them.

    Degrees and certs may have held much more weight in the past, but as university education sinks further into entropy it's becoming much more important that you have skills and experience, and not some piece of paper.
     
  14. Peter2k

    Peter2k Limp Gawd

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    all I'm seeing is someone trying to prove a city's yellow lights are not like they should be according to his calculations, since his wife got caught by a red light
    and he knows his calculations of traffic flow are correct because he is an "engineer"
     
  15. Uvaman2

    Uvaman2 2[H]4U

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    Yeap, but still an argument with as much value as a discussion in a bar.
     
  16. Darunion

    Darunion 2[H]4U

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    It does come off as a forum argument doesnt it? When someone throws out their job title to 'prove' they know what they are talking about lol.

    It should be handled as such "no, you are just whining and your wife should be looking at lights not a stopwatch for when she should stop."
     
  17. refraxion

    refraxion [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Incorrect, don't assume that your opinion is the truth in industry.
     
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  18. DKS

    DKS Limp Gawd

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    Law trumps context every single time. My spouse is a member of a regulated medical college. Try calling yourself by her professional designation and context or not, you will be asked to cease and desist.
     
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  19. Scizyr

    Scizyr Limp Gawd

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    It's the trend I'm seeing in the industry, schools are spitting out more and more inept "engineers." Don't assume things will remain unchanged just because you wish it to be true.
     

  20. If you don't have a degree or state certification, nothing personal, I'm not putting you on a critical project that may be worth millions. At best you are an apprentice , technician, long term intern, or engineer's/architect's assistant. Now if you want to hold yourself to one of those titles, then I will assign you appropriate work with appropriate supervision when you apply for a job. But don't dare call yourself an engineer on a job application, or written testimony.

    There was a very popular mall years back where a concrete overpass on the second floor collapsed sending dozens of people falling onto the first floor. People were seriously hurt.

    Obviously the people sued. First they sued the contractor. The contractor proved they built to spec and plan.
    Then they went back to the architecture firm. The plans were signed off on by the master engineer/chief architect.

    Guess what, that company never certified that architects degree...which didn't exist. They were sued out of existence.
     
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  21. J3RK

    J3RK [H]ardForum Junkie

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    That is a case of gross misrepresentation though. (not to mention negligence) And in a case like that, I would agree with you 100%.
     
  22. otherweeb

    otherweeb Gawd

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    Engineer?
    [​IMG]

    He looks like a Doctor dammit!
    [​IMG]
     
  23. Darunion

    Darunion 2[H]4U

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    True, but charging him a fine
    Man, honestly thought the same thing when I saw his picture! Glad I wasn't alone!
     
  24. dgingeri

    dgingeri 2[H]4U

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    What you're saying is that you do not want people doing things they do not KNOW about. That's fine. It's just a matter of having multiple people confirm that a design is solid or flawed. It isn't about where the people were educated or what test they could pass.

    When the state gets involved in declaring who can do what, then it is concentration of power, and is no longer about your concerns. Anyone with an opposing political viewpoint to the one of the people in power can have their entire livelihood threatened. Students are educated by those who follow the political viewpoints of those in power, and ONLY get educated in what those people want them to hear. This creates a monumental obstruction to freedom.

    This also creates an obstruction to people who don't learn in classical ways. If they don't have the social skills of others and get constantly bullied at public school, they have no choice to study on their own or go to another school. If they learn far more quickly than standard teachers teach and can learn a whole year's worth of material in a week, they're still stuck in the class, bored to tears, holding back their education, all because the STATE says so. If a person doesn't learn well in a classroom setting, and would do better in a lab type setting, doing useful things to learn the actual use of the information they're being taught, they have no recourse and are stuck with a classroom setting. If someone doesn't test well, and can do something under a specified task but not during a test, they're stuck with having to go through the test anyway, and prevented from doing something that they may actually be really good at. It sacrifices students in favor of the state's power.

    In addition, if a teacher knows the subject really well and is able to relate it to students in a way that they are able to learn it quickly and easily, but doesn't follow along with the political views of those running the public education system, that teacher doesn't have a prayer of finding a teaching job. If a teacher knows ways to teach a subject faster and students are able to solidly learn the subject in half the time, well, tough luck, because the teach has to follow the state prescribed lesson plan and time frame. If a teacher hasn't learned their subject, now matter how well they might know it or can teach it, from the state establishment, then they don't have a prayer of finding a teaching job.

    The state getting involved in such things is always wrong. It always results in interference and is bad for the people.

    If you think professional organizations aren't in existence for their own members' power, think again. There is NO other reason for such organizations.
     
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  25. hamm3rhead

    hamm3rhead Gawd

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    So almost 20 years ago I was deemed a systems engineer by my employer in a tech industry, I had a measly aas degree. I've done lots of little bullshit vendor certs and have been called network engineer, sr network engineer even now network architect. I'm not worried about you putting me on a "critical" project. I get your point. You still come off like an ass with the first part of your post. Also millions is relative, I do projects that are under a half million in total as well as projects that are using nodes that are a half million or more each. My only point is state certified monkey doesn't inherently make it more important. I don't think my role is more important. I'm sure you are perfectly reasonable in person. I'm also sure I can get a state certified landscape architect title somewhere.
     
  26. hamm3rhead

    hamm3rhead Gawd

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    perhaps I should have added a sarcastic smiley
     
  27. Grahamkracka

    Grahamkracka [H]ard|Gawd

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    Oh Jesus fucking Christ. Engineering boards and their insistence of the title "engineer" only being afforded to people who passed the PE are just a bunch of elitist pricks. I'm an Aerospace Engineer (With a PE), know how common a PE is in my field? Hint: quite fucking rare. How many Aerospace Engineers without a PE refer to themselves as engineers? ALL OF THEM. Hell the only reason I even got my PE was because my company offers to pay for it, otherwise I'd never have bothered.
     
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  28. Scizyr

    Scizyr Limp Gawd

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    I've worked on multi-million dollar critical projects and saved the company I worked for millions with my work. I am an engineer, the formal engineers I work with refer to me as an engineer. I put engineer on my resume and wouldn't hesitate to do so in written testimony.

    You can fuck yourself in the ass with your own cock, snobbish piece of shit you are.
     
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  29. Anybody who has any engineering-related title will call himself an engineer. Because, in fact, they are engineers. They might not hold the certification but that won't make them less engineer-y. Yes, anybody understands that a PE will be able to sign stuff a standard engineer won't... but other than that, they are both engineers.

    It would be terribly stupid to think otherwise, as you state. How exactly would an engineer call himself, then?

    PS: an engineer is such a broad name that mechanics on board yachts are called, in fact, engineers. They are not called technicians, nor mechanics... they are called engineers.
     
  30. I have never once shoved my credentials in anyone's face. I only bring it up when the conversation is engineering related. You are the one who is blowing himself up to be something you aren't. And if your company screws up, you will find your butt out the door when they get in trouble for assigning someone who doesn't have the proper credentials and titling them an engineer.

    Maybe you're just insecure. You can be proud of the work you did. But it doesn't make you engineer till you get the paper or cert. Take the state boards. It should be no big deal for you, if you are as good as you say you are.

    These are the list of classes just about ALL engineers take:

    Drafting/CAD/CAM
    Fluid dynamics
    statics
    Mechanics
    Dynamics
    Calculus 1, 2, 3
    Differentials
    Statistics
    Thermodynamics
    Kinematic Physics
    Electrical Engineering and mesh circuit analysis

    if you can't solve a differential, or understand finite element analysis using differentials, or solve a double pendulum problem, or solve a constant heat flow problem to boil a liquid under constant pressure using Boyles laws and specific heat energies, then you aren't an engineer. I'm sorry to burst your bubble.
     
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  31. OEM

    OEM [H]ard as it Gets

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    I think it depends on the context. If you're marketing yourself as a licensed engineer, ie, selling blueprints or certifying a structure as safe, then it is a title that must be earned with proper schooling and documentation.

    If you're writing an email about some bullshit, I agree with you.
     
  32. Wierdo

    Wierdo [H]ard|Gawd

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    It's a free country, so you're free to do so, and people are free to call you a hack if they want. Until you start practicing and selling your craft there's no reason for the government to step in and make sure you follow regulatory guidelines for the sake of public safety.

    Also the person in question is indeed an engineer by profession, but simply not one certified by this particular board, so the whole thing is a petty and ridiculous deflection.

    https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/...ly-wins-the-right-to-call-himself-an-engineer

     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2017
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  33. NickJames

    NickJames [H]ardness Supreme

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    Lol, yes of course it's so easy, that's why student debt isn't a problem in America.
     
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  34. That's just making an excuse. It's the cost of a car. Are you telling me you aren't willing to make the investment of a car to better your own future?
     
  35. refraxion

    refraxion [H]ardForum Junkie

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    In Canada, maybe you'd be called an Engineer-In-Training before you get your designation of P.Eng (Professional Engineer), which then you can call yourself an Engineer.
     
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  36. BloodyIron

    BloodyIron 2[H]4U

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    Protecting the title of Engineer is important to society. The difference between, for example, a technician and an Engineer, is the Engineer can do things that hold people's lives in the balance.

    For example, buildings that collapse due to bad design, actually turn into liability suits against the engineers involved. There have been examples of this in the last bunch of years. Engineers are trained to make such appropriate work, but if they are negligent, they need to be accountable. That's why it's hard to earn the title, and must be protected.

    When it comes to things like "network engineer". The companies issuing them really need to fucking stop. I don't think the individuals completing such programs are trying to game the system, but the existence of such things completely skews what Engineering is actually about.
     
  37. NickJames

    NickJames [H]ardness Supreme

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    Not every car is guaranteed to get you from A to B.
     
  38. jedijeb13

    jedijeb13 Limp Gawd

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    I remember seeing this story when it first broke. The guy didn't claim to be a traffic engineer, he simply said he worked as an engineer and then proceeded to explain with math why the cities traffic lights did not stay yellow long enough. He showed mathematically how it was nearly impossible to come to a stop from the speed limit in the time allowed by the yellow portion of the traffic light. The State then fined him for practicing engineering without being certified!! First of all, just using math to back up your opinion is not practicing engineering as a profession. I'm a chemist and I could have made the same calculations since it is simple algebra.

    What the court case boils down to is the state highway engineers getting butt hurt that someone called them on shorting the time for the yellow portion of the traffic signal, probably to increase revenues by having more fines for running red lights(just an opinion but seems logical). His fine that he is fighting had nothing to do with him going out and trying to open and engineering business or work as an engineer in something he wasn't certified for, it was for simply writing an email to the state highway board and using math to make his point.

    I can research solar panels and have made my own for the fun of it. It doesn't make me a mechanical engineer, but if someone asks me a question about a solar panel I do have enough knowledge that I can share it. Should I be fined for experimenting with a solar panel or telling someone else what I did? Should all of Thomas Edison's achievements be taken away from him for practicing engineering without even a high school education? (no, I am not even close to Edison in smarts but he is also a good example).


    Exactly what I thought when I saw the photo :)
     
  39. refraxion

    refraxion [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Just like not every degree will get you to a professional working lifestyle. Engineering like other jobs will have some people who can't get a job.. ie. those who weren't cut to be an Engineer. Like some others have said, if having the title of "Engineer" means nothing, and that they outclass most Engineers... do the requirements to get the actual title then since its so easy. Are they just hoops? maybe, but it shows the mental fortitude of an individual at least.
     
  40. Azphira

    Azphira [H]ard|Gawd

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    [​IMG]
     
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