Oregon Admits It Violated Free Speech Rights of Mats “I Am an Engineer” Jarlstrom

4x 4 hour classes is what it takes to make yourself a Traffic Engineer; I have my Dad's books on the subject. It's maybe 1/2" thick, lol.

He graduated from Northwestern, who has had the Traffic Institute since the 50's or so, and is highly regarded.


An "Expert" is defined as someone with~10k hours invested in "Practicing the Art".

Few people are 'Experts' at anything; I've been an Electrical Tech, Associate Engineer, and now Electrical Engineer for almost 40 years.

If I want to hang a professional card out and design things for anyone who wants, as opposed to my employer, , I need a PE License. Not a PE Degree.

In my job, I act as a Mathematician, Physicist, EE, ME, and MFE (manufacturing eng).

I know my way around a Hamiltonian equation, and use them for design work.

None of this shit is as hard as the assholes would make you believe; learn Math; everything else comes from there.

The entrenched layers of idiots like this Ultima99 and those he speaks for are why America is so fucked, IMHO.

:facepalm:
 
c3k said:
If someone tries to convince me of something mathematical and tells me they have a degree in Women's Studies, well, I wouldn't put too much credence into what they're saying. For anything.

If someone tries to convince me of something mathematical and tells me they have a degree in engineering, I'd lend them some credence. No, their specialty may not be directly applicable to the matter at hand, but their training and background would lend some added significance to what they're trying to get across. That's all this guy was doing. "Hey, I've looked at this. Here's what I've found. I'm an engineer." Instead, a bunch of Women's Studies majors are trying to make what he did into a crime.

I hope he sues them and gets awarded a fortune...and that the a-hats who misused the power of their office to try to silence the dissenter should go to prison. And lose their taxpayer funded pensions.

Repercussions should be applicable, even to our overlords.
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Thanks for actually arguing against the actual point I'm making here. Most are just spouting off about the right to complain like the person under your post even though I've made it beyond clear several times that isn't at all what I'm talking about.

I agree that all engineering degrees have value and it does give credibility and that's exactly why he said he was an engineer. I think we agree on this. Where we differ is that I feel maybe he should have been more forthcoming. When someone is hurt and a person runs up and says "I'm a doctor" a reasonable person would assume they mean medical. In this context of city roads and traffic lights generically stating that one is an engineer a reasonable person could be expected to take him to mean "I'm a civil or traffic engineer". I guess it boils down to this: Did they assume too much from his statement and get pissed when they found he wasn't what they assumed? Should he have been more transparent? I think so. Did the city officials overreact? I'll give you that. Does it mean the onus shouldn't be upon him to more clearly establish his education and expertise? You tell me. I know plenty of people who "exaggerate" or are purposefully vague on their resumes. Not me. I'm very specific and bend over backwards to be truthful.
 
Spaceninja said:
Soooo if you don't have a Political Science degree you can't complain about the government because you aren't qualified? The guy did some math and figured out what they were doing. He's a citizen of the city and allowed to make a formal complaint based on his observations and backed it up with math that apparently they couldn't dispute.
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This again? Read more. I've never said anything about his right to complain. He most certainly has every right to complain and this is 100% not in question at all by anyone in this thread.
 
BlueFireIce said:
But they are not. Even if he sued and won, the people in power would not be effected, rather that money would come from the tax payers. That is the shitty part about anything that government might be at fault for.



No.
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Yeah, that's why I also think they should be criminally prosecuted and lose their pensions. As for enriching the wronged party at the expense of the taxpayers, since they elected the government reps who installed the asshats, then they need to be nailed so that they'll pay attention to who they are electing the next time. Got to put some skin in the game...

Of course, I'm totally unqualified to speak to these issues since I am not a licensed Social Engineer, Political Scientist, Human Relations Expert, Certified Accountant, Governmental Studies Specialist, Tax Preparer, or any otherwise licensed entity which would give me the "right" to speak about jurisprudence, tax, finances, social issues, or any other matter brought up in the public space. But I am an engineer.

;)
 
DrBorg said:
4x 4 hour classes is what it takes to make yourself a Traffic Engineer; I have my Dad's books on the subject. It's maybe 1/2" thick, lol.

He graduated from Northwestern, who has had the Traffic Institute since the 50's or so, and is highly regarded.


An "Expert" is defined as someone with~10k hours invested in "Practicing the Art".

Few people are 'Experts' at anything; I've been an Electrical Tech, Associate Engineer, and now Electrical Engineer for almost 40 years.

If I want to hang a professional card out and design things for anyone who wants, as opposed to my employer, , I need a PE License. Not a PE Degree.

In my job, I act as a Mathematician, Physicist, EE, ME, and MFE (manufacturing eng).

I know my way around a Hamiltonian equation, and use them for design work.

None of this shit is as hard as the assholes would make you believe; learn Math; everything else comes from there.

The entrenched layers of idiots like this Ultima99 and those he speaks for are why America is so fucked, IMHO.

:facepalm:
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Math is great. Not sure who you think was knocking it.

As for being an idiot. Maybe next time you could read and find the real crux of my argument. Until you do that this discussion is pointless, but thanks for sharing your honest opinions anyways.
 
Strange times in which we live, where a genetic male can claim to be a female, but a trained engineer is fined for claiming to be an engineer.

I'm glad the courts employed some common sense.
 
Ultima99 said:
And our society continues to lose its grasp on sanity...

In court what he did would be perjury, plain and simple. The man lied to government officials by misrepresenting his qualifications. He was NOT exercising free speech. To argue the red light cameras are bad is free speech. To say things that are empirically false when making a legal claim is entirely different.

Where are peoples heads at these days?
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And I don't know where your head is at. He wasn't acting in any official capacity. He merely said things could be done better, and stated he wasn't joe blow talking out his ass. That's it. Nothing more.
 
I love how there are people in this thread making the claim that just because he's not the "right" type of engineer he's somehow unqualified to make the complaint that red and yellow traffic lights were shortened on purpose to increase red light violations.

In reality anyone with a camera can record said lights, look at the timestamps in the video, and use simple math to calculate duration. I've seen more complicated science experiments done by 3rd graders. I'm not even kidding.

What kind of engineer he is doesn't matter. Other than to lend credence to his claim that he's not just talking out of his ass.


Oh and just to be clear. He's an engineer. Full stop. End of story.

If he said "I'm a certified & licensed Engineer in the State of Oregon" then that would be misrepresenting himself.
 
westrock2000 said:
You can join the Army. Be trained to be a doctor. Go to war and save 100's or thousands of injured humans and treat trauma. Come back to America. And not be allowed to be a practitioner. That's just regulations for ya.
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Probably because in war if that guy or gal dies in the line of duty its part of the job you move on.

When back in North America anything goes tits up you are getting sued the state is getting sued etc.
 
Ultima99 said:
Again, the man is not a civil or traffic engineer. This is outside his expertise. Perhaps I could more accurately state that he misrepresented that he would be a credible authority on traffic matters. Better?
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We studied queueing theory in EE, vehicular traffic and warm bodies as well as network traffic were specific use cases for this field. It's like saying an EE has no understanding of the aspects of the job of an audio engineer related to signal processing, or has no prerequisite training in related fields because they have different organizational memberships. This is just the modern version of a Guild, where the sole purpose is to protect it's members from competition by establishing a monopoly. There is always overlap, and in this case, he can even break it down to simple math, he may be ignorant of the politics but challenging established rules is just pointing out that those policies have no bearing on reality. In this case he's not offering services, but merely suggesting that the existing rules were scientifically questionable.
 
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What this guy did would be equivalent if he graduated from law school, then went into business rather than taking the bar exam. Later he writes a letter to a judge and says he's an attorney. If he said he has a law degree, it's cool. If he says he's a lawyer, it's not.


DoubleTap said:
Do people realize that airplanes were invented by bicycle shop mechanics and not aeronautical engineers?

If the Wright brothers had been born in Oregon, we'd all be pedaling cross country.
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The funny thing is that 99% of the people with engineering degrees, who design the commercial aircraft we fly in, can not legally call themselves engineers. Myself included.

This is not just an Oregon thing. Most states operate this way. Licensed professional engineers typically are civil or structural engineers, because those are the the only fields that actually require a PE.
 
DrBorg said:
4x 4 hour classes is what it takes to make yourself a Traffic Engineer; I have my Dad's books on the subject. It's maybe 1/2" thick, lol.

He graduated from Northwestern, who has had the Traffic Institute since the 50's or so, and is highly regarded.


An "Expert" is defined as someone with~10k hours invested in "Practicing the Art".

Few people are 'Experts' at anything; I've been an Electrical Tech, Associate Engineer, and now Electrical Engineer for almost 40 years.

If I want to hang a professional card out and design things for anyone who wants, as opposed to my employer, , I need a PE License. Not a PE Degree.

In my job, I act as a Mathematician, Physicist, EE, ME, and MFE (manufacturing eng).

I know my way around a Hamiltonian equation, and use them for design work.

None of this shit is as hard as the assholes would make you believe; learn Math; everything else comes from there.

The entrenched layers of idiots like this Ultima99 and those he speaks for are why America is so fucked, IMHO.

:facepalm:
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Gladwell is entertaining, but the 10k hour rule is oversimplified and wrong.
http://www.businessinsider.com/new-study-destroys-malcolm-gladwells-10000-rule-2014-7

10,000 hours is basically 5 years of employment. Maybe an expert compared to people who don't do what you do, but hardly the time needed to reach the top of most fields.
 
NickJames said:
The amount of gatekeeping in this thread is hilarious.
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This isn't even scratching the surface of some of the insanity in some places.

http://www.ocregister.com/2017/11/2...racket/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Occupational licensing requirements limit competition, raise prices, make it harder for millions of Americans to make a living and often do little to nothing to actually protect consumers or improve quality.

Far from a partisan perception, reports from sources as varied as the Obama White House, the Hamilton Project of the Brookings Institution, the libertarian Reason Foundation and California’s Little Hoover Commission have all reached similar conclusions about the shortcomings and harms of occupational licensing.

With nearly one in three Americans now required to get government permission to work in their given occupation, compared to one in 20 just 60 years ago, it’s time for all states to critically reassess their licensing requirements.
 
DoubleTap said:
This isn't even scratching the surface of some of the insanity in some places.

http://www.ocregister.com/2017/11/2...racket/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Occupational licensing requirements limit competition, raise prices, make it harder for millions of Americans to make a living and often do little to nothing to actually protect consumers or improve quality.

Far from a partisan perception, reports from sources as varied as the Obama White House, the Hamilton Project of the Brookings Institution, the libertarian Reason Foundation and California’s Little Hoover Commission have all reached similar conclusions about the shortcomings and harms of occupational licensing.

With nearly one in three Americans now required to get government permission to work in their given occupation, compared to one in 20 just 60 years ago, it’s time for all states to critically reassess their licensing requirements.
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You should check out the Ontario college of trades.

Nothing but a group of politicians friends that needed a job. They do nothing but take your money and do not help anyone but themselves.
 
I'm telling you, local government is more dangerous to your rights than State or Federal.

Engineering licenses are for specific fields of Engineering that also SELL their services.

Any fool (or real Engineer) can go around saying they're an Engineer as long as they don't provide Engineering services in SOME Engineering fields.

That's the whole point of professional licenses... prohibit unsafe practice of a certain field.

If a PhD in History goes around saying he's a Doctor, he is correct and shouldn't face any fines if he postulates some cancer treatment. If that same History PhD opens a health clinic... then he should be arrested.

See the difference?

It sounds like the Oregon Engineering board go cute and tried to play Lawyer because they didn't like what the man figured out.

... It's not like the smartest Engineers practice professionally, anyways.
 
Ultima99 said:
Thanks for actually arguing against the actual point I'm making here. Most are just spouting off about the right to complain like the person under your post even though I've made it beyond clear several times that isn't at all what I'm talking about.

I agree that all engineering degrees have value and it does give credibility and that's exactly why he said he was an engineer. I think we agree on this. Where we differ is that I feel maybe he should have been more forthcoming. When someone is hurt and a person runs up and says "I'm a doctor" a reasonable person would assume they mean medical. In this context of city roads and traffic lights generically stating that one is an engineer a reasonable person could be expected to take him to mean "I'm a civil or traffic engineer". I guess it boils down to this: Did they assume too much from his statement and get pissed when they found he wasn't what they assumed? Should he have been more transparent? I think so. Did the city officials overreact? I'll give you that. Does it mean the onus shouldn't be upon him to more clearly establish his education and expertise? You tell me. I know plenty of people who "exaggerate" or are purposefully vague on their resumes. Not me. I'm very specific and bend over backwards to be truthful.
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To use your doctor analogy, what you are saying is akin to complaining that the MD that helped you on the street was the wrong specialty. He is still a medical doctor, only he is a neurosurgeon instead of a GP. Engineering is all about math. Once you know that math, the exact application doesn't matter. There mechanical engineers working as aerospace and vice versa. There are several other examples as well, but I'm sure you get the point.
 
I have an electrical engineering degree from a good Canadian university. But because I haven't gone through the long post-grad process to become a Professional Engineer, I cannot legally call myself "an engineer" at all in Canada. The term is protected federally, and regulated by provincial associations of professional engineers.

Oregon protecting the term is not strange to me.
 
KarsusTG said:
Since when are timing signals outside the scope of an electrical engineers abilities? lol
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I suspect the light bulbs, power system, and data connects might use electricity too.

I'm just an Elf you guys put too much effort into your spells and magic.

BTW Who designs these kinds of systems and equipment if not an electrical engineer? Or is he just not qualified to discuss how it is used after being built?
 
Ultima99 said:
Since when are electrical engineers versed in urban planning and traffic flow? lol
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Irrelevant. This issue had *nothing* to do with urban planning or traffic control. This was an issue of simple physics, for which pretty much any engineer is well-qualified.
 
I just wish that the outcome of this would be a federal regulation that sets the length of yellow lights depending on the speed zone that allows a driver to come to a comfortable stop without having to slam on the breaks to avoid getting a ticket because the local government decided if they short the lights they can make more revenue.

Make it if a local government gets caught with short lights they have to repay any fines at 10x what the fine originally was and whoever signed off on the short timing goes to jail for a year. It is bad enough when the government takes advantage of us with being able to raise taxes to cover their mistakes(happened here locally when they over spent on the jail, and had to raise taxes or end up residents of their own jail for misuse of funds). I applaud this guy for standing up to the government for trying to rig the lights in favor of fines, which also causes unsafe driving conditions.
 
jedijeb13 said:
I just wish that the outcome of this would be a federal regulation that sets the length of yellow lights depending on the speed zone that allows a driver to come to a comfortable stop without having to slam on the breaks to avoid getting a ticket because the local government decided if they short the lights they can make more revenue.

Make it if a local government gets caught with short lights they have to repay any fines at 10x what the fine originally was and whoever signed off on the short timing goes to jail for a year. It is bad enough when the government takes advantage of us with being able to raise taxes to cover their mistakes(happened here locally when they over spent on the jail, and had to raise taxes or end up residents of their own jail for misuse of funds). I applaud this guy for standing up to the government for trying to rig the lights in favor of fines, which also causes unsafe driving conditions.
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You could also have the tickets thrown out, since you could prove that it's physically impossible to stop in time if you're at the speed limit.

I like the idea of personal liability for the people who made the decision to shorten the yellow lights.
 
TeknoMage13 said:
To use your doctor analogy, what you are saying is akin to complaining that the MD that helped you on the street was the wrong specialty. He is still a medical doctor, only he is a neurosurgeon instead of a GP. Engineering is all about math. Once you know that math, the exact application doesn't matter. There mechanical engineers working as aerospace and vice versa. There are several other examples as well, but I'm sure you get the point.
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Wow.... You're aware there are kinds of doctors other than medical, right?

As with many people in this thread you missed by a mile. If you had actually read the thread there was previous discussion about how not all doctors are medical. A doctor could be of Fine Arts or Medical, or Psychology. It is you who has missed the point.
 
So I have to ask, and this isn't meant to be an insult, Is English your first language? I'm only asking as it would explain a lot of the misunderstanding.

so let's start from the beginning.
"In court what he did would be perjury, plain and simple. The man lied to government officials by misrepresenting his qualifications. He was NOT exercising free speech. To argue the red light cameras are bad is free speech. To say things that are empirically false when making a legal claim is entirely different."

This is your first post in the thread, and it it factually incorrect. It would in no way be perjury. To be perjury it would have to be proven that is made a specific claim that was indeed false. He NEVER claimed to be any specific type of engineer, if they assumed that he meant something specific the error is on them. a Claim of perjury cannot be based on the assumption of someone else. As to "To say things that are empirically false when making a legal claim is entirely different", I don't know where that is coming from being that his data was backed up by other engineers (some who are Civil engineers).

And your second post in the thread (and the basis of most of your following threads) was "He's an electronics engineer. Pardon me, I guess I didn't realize that was the same as a civil or traffic engineer that makes him qualified to speak on such matters. This is akin to a Liberal Arts doctor running up to a hurt person exclaiming "I'm a doctor!". It has little value here."

So a few things first. I don't think anyone here has said that an EE is the same as a CE. But I think most here can agree that the basics in math and physics in most of them (with the possible exception of internet engineers). Being that the complaint was based off of recorded time based observations vs. written laws not matching, the claim of even a basic engineering degree was more than sufficient making need of any specific engineering degree irrelevant. Also, a "traffic engineer" is a civil engineer with a specialization in traffic and is only a certification not an additional degree (I understand you never said it was, just adding this for clarification).

And last. The part that has mostly been brought up.
"This is akin to a Liberal Arts doctor running up to a hurt person exclaiming "I'm a doctor!"
No, this is completely inaccurate. TeknoMage13 completely understood what you said and provided an actually accurate analogy.
The difference between a Civil engineer and an Electrical engineer is only a matter of specialty. Much like TeknoMage13's analogy of Medical Doctors different specialties.
The only way YOUR analogy would work is if the person who filed the complaint had been something like a train engineer (not any kind of degree, only a job title).
 
RickyJ said:
I have an electrical engineering degree from a good Canadian university. But because I haven't gone through the long post-grad process to become a Professional Engineer, I cannot legally call myself "an engineer" at all in Canada. The term is protected federally, and regulated by provincial associations of professional engineers.

Oregon protecting the term is not strange to me.
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Is the certification in Canada required for you to exercise your freedom of speech and question public officials?
 
Ultima99 - You keep strangely arguing that somehow the guy who wrote the letter was not qualified to do so. The proof is in the letter itself. Everything he wrote before I am an engineer is sound. Matter of fact, the ONLY reason they attacked the 'engineer' part is because they knew he had them dead to rights and they could not refute the rest of the letter.

You are failing in the same manner.
 
I wonder what the qualifications to be able to determine if other people are qualified would be?

How does the Dunning–Kruger effect work into this?
 
Wierdo said:
Is the certification in Canada required for you to exercise your freedom of speech and question public officials?
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No, it just prevents me from giving myself a protected title to try and make myself sound more important than other people.
 
RickyJ said:
No, it just prevents me from giving myself a protected title to try and make myself sound more important than other people.
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So mentioning one's college degree is now cause for a fine unless a public official adds another sheet of paper on top. Next they'll fine a visiting doctor for administering CPR on the sidewalk without the state's blessing.

Use common sense people, abuse of authority and pulling laws out of context are best left for third world countries.
 
Wierdo said:
So mentioning one's college degree is now cause for a fine unless a public official adds another sheet of paper on top. Next they'll fine a visiting doctor for administering CPR on the sidewalk without the state's blessing.

Use common sense people, abuse of authority and pulling laws out of context are best left for third world countries.
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There are certain titles that are reserved for specific things. It's interesting where the lines are. "I am an engineer. I am a Professional Engineer." Like, "I am an accountant. I am a Certified Public Accountant." It seems like there would be better-understood gradients of those disciplines.
 
Joust said:
There are certain titles that are reserved for specific things. It's interesting where the lines are. "I am an engineer. I am a Professional Engineer." Like, "I am an accountant. I am a Certified Public Accountant." It seems like there would be better-understood gradients of those disciplines.
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Certainly you do have a point here. This has absolutely no bearing on the complaint itself.

He is an engineer (PE/LE/or not has no bearing here)
He as a person made a complaint to Beaverton regarding certain things and presented mathematics proof
He has every right as a citizen to make such complaint and he did not misrepresented himself

Again, I understand if one were performing a duty as an Engineer for a project / tasks / etc... to be Licensed or otherwise regulated in the State. Again, he wasn't doing precisely that but to quantify his background and knowledge attributed to the issues on hand and presented them with mathematics proof that they were in the wrong.

Nonetheless, to your point of certain titles that are reserved for specific things, certainly you do have a point. IMO, that's only relevant if it was related to a project or work that he's directly involved in and not as a backing or supporting qualification to his complaint which was accurate.

I hope he wins BIG in a lawsuit against the city.
 
Ultima99 said:
Wow.... You're aware there are kinds of doctors other than medical, right?

As with many people in this thread you missed by a mile. If you had actually read the thread there was previous discussion about how not all doctors are medical. A doctor could be of Fine Arts or Medical, or Psychology. It is you who has missed the point.
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I'm well aware. It seems you missed my point entirely. The point was that types of engineers are equivalent to types of medical doctors. You may notice that I went through the effort to specifically call out medical doctors in my post.
 
Jon855 said:
Certainly you do have a point here. This has absolutely no bearing on the complaint itself.

He is an engineer (PE/LE/or not has no bearing here)
He as a person made a complaint to Beaverton regarding certain things and presented mathematics proof
He has every right as a citizen to make such complaint and he did not misrepresented himself

Again, I understand if one were performing a duty as an Engineer for a project / tasks / etc... to be Licensed or otherwise regulated in the State. Again, he wasn't doing precisely that but to quantify his background and knowledge attributed to the issues on hand and presented them with mathematics proof that they were in the wrong.

Nonetheless, to your point of certain titles that are reserved for specific things, certainly you do have a point. IMO, that's only relevant if it was related to a project or work that he's directly involved in and not as a backing or supporting qualification to his complaint which was accurate.

I hope he wins BIG in a lawsuit against the city.
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I also hope he prevails, just on principle. It seems abusive to the complainant, without cause.
 
TeknoMage13 said:
I'm well aware. It seems you missed my point entirely. The point was that types of engineers are equivalent to types of medical doctors. You may notice that I went through the effort to specifically call out medical doctors in my post.
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But you were responding to my post using my analogy about doctors about how this guy could have better presented himself. Your point to me was erroneously targeted as you were thinking I'm complaining about his specialty even though he's still an engineer. Incorrect. We're done here, this has been a huge waste of time.
 
Ultima99 said:
But you were responding to my post using my analogy about doctors about how this guy could have better presented himself. Your point to me was erroneously targeted as you were thinking I'm complaining about his specialty even though he's still an engineer. Incorrect. We're done here, this has been a huge waste of time.
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You're being deliberately obtuse. The point is that saying I'm a doctor or I'm an engineer is enough information. NO ONE would ever just implement the contents of his paper without running past a PE of the appropriate specialty and no one asked them to. He submitted information for their consideration and stated that he was an engineer to show he is educated in a related field.

Could he have more precisely identified his background? Yes. Does it matter? No. Is it relevant? No.

The Law requires it to be approved by a PE before implementation.
 
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Elf_Boy said:
One of the more inane local government actions I've heard of this century.

Good thing he wasn't fishing on horse back on tuesday, he'd be in prison.
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I got the impression from previous reporting that this guy has been harassing his local government for months/years about a ticket his wife got. Look up his presentation about the construction of the street if you can still find it and you'll start to understand why they tried to throw the book at him.

There's a guy like this in my town. Kinda crazy and he goes to every city council meeting to ask weird questions but nobody can legally force him to go away.
 
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